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We have for you this evening the Democratic candidates forum presented by Main Street Action at the Cooperage from 6pm to 7.30pm.
It is presented by Main Street Action, moderated at MC by our very own Dan Schaefer, our political editor.
He will be moderating a forum with seven candidates who are running for governor right now.
All of them are Democrats, but they are all going to be there talking about their ideas for the campaign, their thoughts on Wisconsin, and why they think they're the right person for the job.
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Catch that whether you're in person or on the stream 6pm tonight.
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Check it out.
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The election is going to be here before you know it.
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Now we are moving on to our next guest, an author.
Professor of philosophy at the University of Utah and the author of his new book, it is called The Score, How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game.
I'm so excited to have C.T.
Wen on the show this morning.
Good morning, T. How are you today?
Good morning.
I have just gotten my kids to school and trying to transition from parent brain
to
like vaguely professional brain, which is always a little
hard.
Okay, here's the thing T, I don't have children.
I find it almost taxing every day to go from like kid brain, because I have a kid brain to professional brain.
So we're in for a wild ride today.
So let's start off with something here.
You are a professor of philosophy.
And you wrote this book, The Score, How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game.
And when I started reading it, I thought to myself, thank God, a philosophy book that I can get into, because I took philosophy in college.
I thought I was all about it, epistemology, because I can do this.
And I went into my professor's office and went, I don't understand anything they're saying.
And you wrote this book in very plain flavored language, but the overall concepts are so complex when you
take a step back and you look at how everything is just, as you put, gamified in our world.
And that's what you really talk about with this book.
Talk more about that and what led you to writing this book for the world, The Score.
Right.
I mean, I'm so glad that you found it easy to inject into your brain because one of the background reasons I wrote this is because
I love games,
but I
also think the philosophy of games is a really, I mean, I will just say it in philosophy geek language.
I think it's a really good way to think about the meaning of life, about what we're doing and what we're for, because there's a version of thinking about games that I...
in some sense can't stand that I engage in sometimes where if you're a very adult and you have to justify a game would you end up having to just what people end up doing is saying something like oh this game is great because it de-stresses me so I can get back to work or this game is great because it like trains me up and gives me the skills gives me grit and determination
and
it teaches math and I think I think that I want to say and this is this is a message via a philosopher named Bernard Suites
that
is an Aristotle message
which is that the meaning of life is in delightful and interesting action and thinking for its own sake and this is what games are for me what games exemplify at their best not everything not every gamification but at their best what games exemplify is doing something for its own sake
yeah
Doing something often dumb often idiotic that nobody else understands because for me as a rock climber Because doing delicate movement is beautiful or solving puzzles because feeling your brain move is beautiful and what games show you is that Sometimes that's the only point.
I mean one way to think about it is when you're solving a puzzle
It's not like the point is to give the world solution, because the solution is already there.
I think that's the essence of what a game is.
Games are, as the philosopher Berners-Sutes put it, taking the long way on purpose or taking on unnecessary obstacles.
So if I buy a puzzle computer game, I could look up the answers online and be done in two seconds.
But I don't.
I avoid the easy way.
I avoid the efficient path.
And what that shows me is that what's valuable to me is doing something is to be engaged in the action out of my own abilities, my own cognition, my own body.
It's about the, I mean, the version of this that we still have is the saying that the journey is the destination.
And I
think we say this, but we forget what it actually means.
Well, I think it's, you know, in researching all of this and watching some of your other interviews, you talked about it purpose versus goal.
What is your purpose versus the goal?
And they are two separate things.
And the rock climbing, you open the book with rock climbing saved my life.
And as someone who, I would say, I am a rock climber on pause.
I used to do it for a few years, then I stopped doing it.
It's something I've always wanted to get back into.
But I understood that.
It's not just even, it's not a metaphor.
It's just what you did.
But I understand that thing of like, when you find that,
when you find that hold that gets you there faster or you're you're you're holding on stronger and you feel that sense of like I've done this that is something that is very very beautiful but then you quickly equate it to something of it became less about doing the thing that make you feel good instead doing the thing that got you to that next level that is an arbitrary thing decided by somebody else because somebody else said you have to be like this or like I guess I'll do it I'll climb this way because I got to get to that number
I have to get to that number T or I'm not good enough and that's what we do to ourselves That is the that is the that's what kills joy We
are on the same way yeah, so I mean this I think this core idea and one of the reasons people misunderstand what a game is
is
because This is this is me sounding
the most abjectly like a modern philosopher because they don't distinguish between a goal and a purpose.
Yeah.
And I learned this from my mentor when I was a student, Barbara Herman, who's a Kantian ethicist.
And what she said was, you have to tell the difference in a goal and a purpose because if you invite people over for a board game, your friends, the goal is to win, but the purpose is to have fun.
Yeah.
And these are separated.
I think a lot of people like
Assume that in a game if you're chasing something if you're pushing hard for it that must be what's valuable But a lot of the times it's not a lot of the times and you can tell right like when you're playing a game with your friend I think unless unless you have a poor and hostile temperament if you play a party game and Everyone has a good time.
Yeah, and you lost you don't think to yourself like I wasted my evening.
Yeah, I think we understand intuitively
and deeply than many games, the thing we chase, the goal, is not why we play.
For climbing, I think it's really, I mean, I would bet just, maybe this is superficial, but I'm looking at you, I'm looking at me, neither of us is ever going to be the world champion.
Thanks, man, all right.
I thought it was great.
Reading this book to believe in my, no, you're absolutely right.
No, no, no.
Well, I will never, yeah, exactly, exactly.
I will never be even average.
I have been a sub-mediocre climber my entire life.
The reason I climb is because it feels beautiful and it shuts my brain up and it gets like the weird voices that are always in my head to stop.
This is...
I think everyone now has certain beliefs about me.
But I think we know deep in our heads, so philosophers have a term for this.
It's called a self-effacing end.
This is another idea from Aristotle, that some things in life you can't chase directly.
So one example, I think, is de-stressing.
If you sit there and be like, de-stress, relax, you're just going to get more wound up.
The interesting thing about games is they're kind of sideways for us to slip into these kinds of things.
So if you want to relax, you don't try to relax directly.
That's like trying not to think about elephants.
It's not going to work.
The way you relax is you aim to get to the top of the cliff for me.
I climb.
I adopt the aim to get to the top of the cliff.
Getting to the top of the cliff is the goal.
Relaxation is the purpose.
And I can tell those are different.
And I can tell that my true purpose is kind of the meditative, relaxing flow state.
because if I go to the gym and I fail every climb, I still come out mentally refreshed from having like been in this wordless body oriented state.
And I think the problem, the thing that gets really interesting is when we forget the real reason we're doing it, when you start doing something because it makes you happy, when you start playing a game because it makes you happy.
I mean, let me back up for a second.
I think one way to put it is that in normal
In normal life, we take the means for the sake of the end.
We do things because we want some outcome.
But in gaming life, we often take the end for the sake of the means.
We chase some goal because we want to be plunged into a process.
Because we find the process beautiful or satisfying or relaxing.
And then we forget.
This is just a thing that seems to happen to us.
I forgot it.
with climbing, right?
I got super obsessed with the scoring system.
I kept trying to move up the levels.
And then suddenly, like, all the joy and all the relaxation kind of faded away.
And for me, this is a kind of a microcosm of maybe everything.
that this is a thing that like we as people and socially have started doing where we get on something like a social media platform or we enter some, some.
Oh, when you talk about Twitter, oh my God, yeah.
Tell me about your experience.
Well, I got into Twitter kind of late.
Like when people were, I feel like I was on Twitter in the last few years of the good times.
Yeah.
And then it just started all sliding downhill and then and I'm still there I'm barely on and I don't do it because because I might my Algorithm is so because I decided that what would be more fun than to make fun of people I don't like so guess what more people I don't like or so it's just this circle and What you describe Twitter as it's in the beginning Is it what everyone talked about in the early days was like this is a place to connect to learn to have fun?
But then all of a sudden Oh, did you see that tweet that got
Two million views?
Well, I should do that too.
How do I do that?
It's like when a boss says, hey, make a viral video.
Do it.
Yeah.
What?
Yeah.
So this is, this is.
There's something in particular that happens what I think it sometimes happens with games or morally more often happens with gamified systems Yeah, and I need a name for it.
So I'm calling it value capture So value capture is what happens when your values are rich and subtle or in the process of developing in that direction And you go get put in some institution or some social setting or some technology that gives you some simplified Typically quantified version and that takes over like going on Twitter
to connect to people and starting that way.
And just starting to notice these likes and retweets and follows and suddenly having those be dominant.
And what happens when they become dominant is genuine connection isn't what is measured by that scoring system.
That scoring system measures something else.
It measures fast fire, superficial reactivity.
And so if you become dominated by that scoring system, if you let that take over and you forget about your original purpose, forgetting on the system, then you have
permitted the system to shift your values and shift your goals.
I
think sometimes that happens to us without even our knowing it.
I think that happens in more aspects of our life than we understand and I want to talk more about that on the other side of the break as far as the fact that this sort of system is far older than we think and that we take part in it every single day.
And I think what you said is very important.
to find that meaning of life.
We are speaking to C.T.
Wynn, who is the author of the score, how to stop playing somebody else's game here on Civic Media, mid mornings on Civic Media.
My name is Greg Bach.
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Leave a comment on that live stream still ahead.
We got Audio Sorbet as well as this shouldn't be a thing.
So don't go anywhere.
We are talking to philosophy professor C.T.
Wynn about his book.
the score, how to stop playing someone else's game is, it is available right now.
I have, I now have an audio version, audio book version of it to listen to again.
And we were talking about just the gamification of life.
That is the, but the gamification of life is one aspect of the book to the other side is how through the gamification, they take the information and they build on that as far as metrics.
algorithms, things of that nature, which sounds like very new terms.
But really, as you discussed, this is nothing new as far as the how they gather information.
Yeah, I want to strongly distinguish in two things.
Yeah, one is actually playing real games.
Yes.
And the other is gamification.
Okay.
One of the main differences is that
Typically when we encounter gamifications, we don't have a choice about them I think we have this deeply different encounter like when I have a board game I can choose which score board game to play and if I don't like it I can alter it our relationship to the large-scale metrics were exposed to Twitter likes
page views, subscriber accounts.
These are the things, these are a different kind of relationship because they're presented to us from the outside and we have very little ability to modify them, right?
A student who doesn't like the way GPA is can't like play a speedrun variant or like house rule GPA.
So one of the things that we need to understand is what happens to us when we relate ourselves to large scale gamified metrics.
And you're right, I got into this thinking, oh, I'm talking, I'm thinking about something that really recent.
I'm thinking about the downside of this thing that's been happening for 10 or 15 years where people are trying to gamify education and trying to like put like little level ups and point scoring systems into like.
old-school processes.
When I came away thinking after reading a bunch of history about the history of bureaucracy and quantification, is that we are at the end stage of a thousand-year process of movement towards institutional quantification and bureaucratization.
And what this is doing is transforming what we find valuable.
So for me this this idea we're talking about value capture when you take on external metrics as your values One way to think about what's happening is that you're outsourcing your values, right?
Instead of thinking to yourself what you care about your particular communicative interaction or what you care about your piece of journalism You're letting an external measure.
You're letting Mark Zuckerberg tell you what to love is right and
The essential nature of this, I think one thing you might think is, oh, it's just someone from the outside.
They're going to get wrong.
But I think there's an even deeper problem.
And that deeper problem is that bureaucratic quantification, the way that large-scale institutions create numbers like grade point average, isn't essentially
I mean, it's an inhumane way to generate values.
And there's an explanation for this that I found in this kind of hidden scholarship.
So Theodore Porter and Lorraine Dast and these historians who are heroes of mine, they put it this way.
Quantification in an institution is made to travel easily between distant strangers.
It's made to be able to be understood across different contexts.
And in order to achieve that, it has all the high context, high sensitivity nuance stripped out.
So for example, when I write qualitative responses to my students essays, I can talk about all kinds of things.
I can talk about rigor and creativity.
I can use all kinds of dimensions.
I can use all this rich language.
But that won't travel to someone from the business school or an employer, and it won't add up.
The way we make it travel and add up is we create this really thin, decontextualized chunk that we hold in common, grade point average, right?
And if everyone understands it the same way, then we can all understand really quickly what a grade means, and we can add it up.
But the insight I got from these people, Porter and Daston, is that
The thinness and the inhumanity is essentially related to the power of numbers.
That is, numbers are powerful because they travel easily between contexts.
And they travel easily between contexts because everything that requires high sensitivity and high background knowledge to understand has been removed from them.
And they've been kind of narrowed down to this knife's edge of information that can travel easily.
Does that make sense?
I mean, the core problem for me of metrics is that you're taking something that's been designed to be understood easily outside of a context, and you're letting that rule of your core value set.
And I think that that's something that we just spoke before.
You came on the show to the director of the UW Career Exploration Center, and we were talking about AI when trying to find a job.
And I think that's a connection to me is that taking that
Taking all of your own personal history and your experience and you have to quantify it into this.
Cover letter or this thing that you're trying to find keywords So hopefully the computer will find value in those keywords and then we'll send it to a person who finds value because they found the keywords that values when really I want to know about the person who has the experience and the thoughts and I think that makes absolute sense and I you know I bring it back to what you said very early on about finding the meaning of life and I feel like we're finding them We're trying to find the meaning in life in every little thing we do whether we're trying to cure cancer or watch a YouTube video that might inspire us to take up a new hobby It's about defining and finding our meaning of life
And that quantitative measure is powerful because it makes you seem to a certain point, but it doesn't make you heard or doesn't make you feel good at the end of the day.
I mean, one way to put it is it makes you easily heard.
But to make yourself heard, you have to down translate yourself into this compressed chunk that anybody can understand.
Yeah.
I could talk to you for five more hours really quick.
We have to go really quick, really quick.
How is the chili verde recipe?
I want to end with that.
It's good.
The Chile Verde recipe is amazing.
Excellent.
All right.
CT win is the author of the score.
How to stop playing somebody else's game.
It's available right now.
Get it.
Listen to it.
Read it.
Get it in your life.
And hopefully we can have you back on the show to talk more about this because it was a great conversation.
But T, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
All right.
When we come back, audio survey.
And then this shouldn't be a thing.
Great show.
Happy you're here.
Mid mornings on Civic Media.
My name is Greg Box.
Stay tuned.
Stay informed.
Stay close.
Welcome.
Welcome back to mid mornings on civic media.
My name is Greg Bach.
I'm your host, your buddy, your pal, your everything to everything you need to be.
And we are happy that you are here today.
You want to get in touch with us.
The number is the same.
Whether you call or text, it's 855-752-4842-8557 five civic.
You can leave a comment on the live stream.
We are currently streaming on Facebook, YouTube.
and the platform that we still call Twitter.
Again, tonight, if you can't be there in person at the Coop Ridge, you can live stream the Main Street Governor candidate forum for the 2026 gubernatorial race hosted by Main Street Action, MC and moderated by Dan Schaefer are very good.
buddy.
He is the founding editor.
He's the, I'm sorry, he's the political editor of civic media, as well as the founder of the recombobulation area.
That kicks off at 6pm.
If you can't be in Milwaukee for that live and in person, you can stream it on civic media's YouTube page, but we want people to be informed.
It will have the seven candidates who are running on the democratic side and we want to hear what they have to say.
We want to hear what they want to do for Wisconsin and why they are the right people for the job, possibly.
So again, that kicks off at seven o'clock.
I'm sorry, kicks off at six PM goes until seven 30.
And then we've been talking about it all morning.
It is in the paper right now.
It is going to be redonkulously cold this weekend starting tomorrow night.
It is going to dip below zero wind chills, even colder.
So please just keep that under consideration.
when you're going out, just put on them lawn drowns, put on maybe a second hat.
I don't know.
Just be safe and be warm.
We're just, we're gonna, we just want that for you today.
All right.
It is time for another topic, another, another, another edition of audio sorbet.
We had a lot of good conversations today.
So what I was thinking about with audio sorbet, the harps, there they are.
Kind of want to go with both of our guests here today.
So we spoke to Michelle Jackson earlier, who's the director of the UW career exploration center.
And then we also, after that had a conversation with CT win, who is the author of the score, how to stop playing somebody else's game.
Fantastic book.
I really recommend you pick it up and read it because it really just, it, I don't know, like for me, I was,
reading, you know, there's definitely the side of when we're talking about the metrics and the quantification aspect of the world we live in.
But it also makes you ask the question very early on is like, what do I love to do?
Why do I love to do it?
How do I find the joy in there?
And also about trying new things.
And I think both guests had that in mind when it comes to
What the ultimate goals of our conversations were this morning is is is is in the book the score T speaks about trying and like people who try new things, you know, like, are you willing to try new games?
Are you willing to?
I do not want to do these things.
Why are there reasons?
But like it's
Where are you in your life with that as far as your career?
Where are you in their life with like trying new hobbies?
We're you know, are there things you want to do in 2026 and again, this isn't about Resolutions this isn't about oh, I want to lose a little weight or I want to quit smoking Those are both great things to do if you want to do them.
That's not really what we're talking about right now Are you a person who wants to try a new career path?
Are you a person who has changed career paths in the past few years?
Why did you do it?
Is it because you didn't find the joy in what you were doing before?
I mean, I think that when we spoke with Michelle, we spoke about career opportunities moving on through your life.
And I feel like I can't speak for anybody else, but I know that I know for myself and for friends of mine that tradition of, all right, you go to college, you get a job, you start a family, and then that's it.
and you never change because that's just not how the world works.
You've got a career and that's what you've got to provide and that's what you do.
But we're seeing more and more in the past few years that that's not really the case.
It doesn't have to be the case.
And are you someone who has broken free from that tradition?
Have you changed careers?
Have you boldly set forth to try something new?
Have you decided to start rock climbing?
Have you decided to
would work?
Have you decided to indulge in something that brings joy to your heart?
And if you have, is it something that because of maybe you were in a career that you thought you wanted to do, but then realized it doesn't bring anything?
That's what I want to know.
Like, what
is
the, what is the thing that sparks joy in your heart?
How are you expressing that in 2026?
What do you want to try in 2026?
I know for myself personally that
I'm a person who has changed paths many times in just even the past like 20 years.
You know, I decided I wanted to go to college in my late 20s when people said, but really?
Why do you want to do that?
Even though I wasn't the first person ever to go to college in their late 20s, many people have been doing it for a long time, but when you
say that you want to kind of break a tradition or try something brand new.
There can be folks out there who can, who can propose the question of why do you want to do that?
Why would you want to change what's going on?
It's fine.
I wanted to do that.
Went to college.
Then I went to trade school.
Now I'm here.
It's a long path with many twists and turns, frustrations, but also a lot of joy because I just wanted to do something that makes me happy.
And I wanted to know what makes you happy.
Calvin, have you, I mean, I know you're relatively young.
But has there been twists and turns in your career path or life choices?
Like we were talking yesterday about the things you like to do, whether it's reading or video games, but is there things that you want to try or things that you thought you loved and you're like, I'm done with that.
It no longer brings me what I believe.
Is that in your world at all?
Well, I
obviously haven't made a career change or anything like that, but speaking, I mean, you did.
You did.
I mean, this is my first career, I would say, but besides the point, speaking on what Michelle was talking about as far as majors, I...
Had four different majors and I ended up with two minors because I went that far
wait Whoa, whoa, you have you have four majors?
No, no, no I have
one point was declared four different majors
okay,
gotcha I see okay, I end up graduating with one major, but with two minors mm-hmm from so I started off I went when I applied for school I was like
I don't even really want to go to school.
So let's think money.
And I said I was going to be an economics major.
Before I even made it to school, I was like, wait, what does an economics person do?
So I switched my major.
So by the time I started school, my major was finance.
After a singular business class, I was like, yeah, there's no way in hell I'm doing this.
So I became a political science major.
Oh, man.
And that was working for a while
because I
enjoy the political science classes.
Yeah.
But then it got to a point that's like, okay, do I want to be a lawyer?
I don't think so.
So
what's the
point?
You know, I know, but I,
so then I was like, okay, what's one thing I really, really, really love?
And that's video games.
Yeah.
So I became a media arts and game development major.
Okay.
That I quickly realized a I don't like programming Okay, and B. I Didn't like the people that were in the program
like
they I just found them okay, and I realized that I liked music and Making beats and that kind of thing
so
I became a communications
major and that is what I ended up graduating with.
But I went so far in media arts and game development and political science that I do have both minors in those.
Wait, you have minors in political
science and what was the other one?
Media arts and game development.
I mean, I feel like it's, I mean, it sounds like you could be a lobbyist for the gaming, for the gaming world, but I mean, that's the thing though is we got to try different things.
And, and when speaking to Michelle, it's, that's what college is there for.
And.
I know for me growing up there, you know, changing your major was almost shameful because you went into college with a goal with a plan.
I'm going to do this thing.
I'm going to become a recreational botanist for the Midwest.
And you're like, no, I don't want to do that anymore.
And I think that's important.
I think that's a fair thing to do to stand up for yourself and your own joy and your own passions.
you know, that's part of what college is there for.
It's to find out what you want to be in life.
So that's, I did not know all of that.
That's all.
Okay.
I can, oh my God, economics.
That's, that is,
it did also take me five full years.
So, so that's fine.
No, I know.
I'm just saying like it,
it added time to the process.
Well,
That's that's a trade-off, but I would say in the long run if you'd rather I would you rather have a degree that keeps you happy or would you rather have a degree that got you out in three years and in 10 years 15 years times like I hate this I mean when I went to school For political science.
I wanted to be a lawyer.
I Didn't didn't so much want to be practicing what I wanted to work in government and I worked in government after school and my One of the bosses there was like don't become a lawyer.
He was a lawyer.
He's like just don't do it
And he sat me down and he told me why it probably wouldn't be the right move for me.
And I really thought about it.
I'm like, yeah, you're right.
But I think that's that.
And that, and that goes back to what Michelle was also saying too, is that radical, radical collaboration, speak to people to ask questions, find out what goes into those fields because you can go and learn about them.
But, you know, go and use the law school thing is like going to law school is nothing like going.
becoming a lawyer and being a lawyer is nothing like law school or the TV shows.
It's always different.
So yeah, I think that's very important to take into consideration.
On the text line, John from Milwaukee listening in says, rock climbing for me is something I'm trying to get into indoor rock climbing.
That is, he says, I say go for it.
I think rock climbing, if, I mean, it can be a bit of an expensive hobby.
Once you have all the equipment, it's a little bit cheaper.
If you get a membership, it's a little bit cheaper, but I think that's a, I think it's a great way to find
Especially if your brain operates in a way that like as, as we were talking about with tea and as he says in the book, there is processes involved in rock climbing that really appeal to certain people.
I know for me, that's very much a thing.
I do want to get back into it as well.
And I think that's fantastic.
And I wish you nothing but luck, John.
He also says, uh, he also said earlier, wow, Michelle, very knowledgeable and pretty great content guys.
Thank you very much.
And I really say like, if you're a parent out there and you heard that interview with Michelle, talk to your kids, just make
sure they're on the path they think they need to be on and be there and be supportive if they want to change their minds or explore something new at least.
I think that's half the battle for a lot of young people is that when they want to change their mind, they might be afraid to tell their parents.
He also asks, do we still hear from Jane?
Yes, I talked to Jane pretty regularly.
She's doing great.
She's loving retirement and she misses and loves.
All of you, Brett and Brown, dear listening to WAUK.
I live for change.
I've changed my whole life.
I've got my degree at 48.
I started painting at the age of 40.
Art brings me so much joy, but now I'm getting ready to retire.
This is the career path I dream of now.
I think that's fantastic.
I think that's something that, you know, that makes me feel very good, Brett, for myself because I'm, I'm, I am 48 and I struggle with trying new things because I think, well,
Some people have been doing it for 25 years at my age So why bother and I think it's the wrong attitude because that doesn't help you and that just keeps you from doing it So I see things like this.
It makes me feel good about trying new hobbies and whatnot, but I really appreciate that Brett and congratulations and I Wish you nothing but joy and excitement in your retirement.
I as I get older with every passing year.
I'm like, oh man, I get to retire someday
Who knows?
But you know, well, that's probably another like 20, 30, 40, 900 years down the road, but appreciate everyone for being a part of the conversation.
Appreciate everyone for listening today.
Well, before we get out of here, we got one more segment.
It is, this shouldn't be a thing.
So don't go anywhere.
You're listening to civic media mid mornings.
My name is Greg Bach.
If you want to call.
eight, five, five, seven, five, two, four, eight, four, two, eight, five, five, seven, five, seven.
Still more to come.
Lots of great programming still ahead throughout the day.
We're going to talk more about that on the other side of the break, including what you're going to be hearing on John and Gordy and Pete Schwab.
Oh, nightlight.
So stay tuned.
Stay close.
You're listening to Civic Media.
Find the latest news, information, and archives of all your favorite shows on the Civic Media website, civicmedia.us.
Welcome.
Welcome back to mid mornings on civic media.
My name is Greg Bach.
I am your buddy, your pal, your friend in science.
I don't know what that means, but I love science.
So you should too.
All right.
If you want to be part of the conversation, eight, five, five, seven, five, two, four, eight, four, two, eight, five, five, seven, five, civic, leave a comment on that live stream.
And we'd love for you to be part of the day.
And the day doesn't stop when we are done friends.
We have plenty, plenty.
Oh.
plenty more coming up today, including today on John and Gordy.
My screen is all all weird now again.
So we're going to go find ourselves a new screen.
But we're talking about so after our show from 11 to two, we have got Tom Hartman.
And then from two to five, it's going to be John and Gordy in the afternoon.
They talked to Ryan Mahalesco, who was a communications and advocacy specialist with the International Crane Foundation on Wisconsin's new crane hunting bill.
They'll also be speaking at with Dan Schaefer, who is the, the MC and moderator of tonight's event, the Main Street Governor's Candidate Forum at the Coopridge tonight, 6 PM.
If you can't be there, you can always catch it on the Civic Media YouTube.
channel.
And he'll be, he'll be moderating a forum between seven of the Democratic candidates running for governor this year.
It will all be taking place tonight, 6pm.
You can be part of that.
Join us.
The process is here and the race has begun.
So that's going to be happening tonight.
He'll be, they'll be talking to Dan Schaeffer about the event, then talking to Mike McCabe on his latest sub stack post.
And then tonight, uh, nightlight with Pete Schwabba interviewing
I think the greatest community in Milwaukee, maybe Wisconsin, maybe America, Chassidy, Washington, and then Wisconsinology founder, Frank Anderson.
So that's all happening tonight, today, this afternoon.
Don't go anywhere after us.
We're not the end, I'll be all of the network.
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very much means the world to me and to the entire team here.
So all right, it is 10 55, which means it's time for another edition of this shouldn't be a thing.
If you have everything that should not be send it to Calvin and me via my email address, Greg dot bach at civic media dot us Greg dot bach at civic media dot us.
This one comes all the way from the science focus.
The story is from Austria and who is Ezzie Pearson has the byline a cow has been filmed using tools for the first time ever stunning scientists Veronica a cow from Austria taught herself to use a broom and we have the footage to prove it there is a video component to this in the mountain pastures of Austria a very clever cow is overturned overturning our view of how intelligent these creatures actually are
A pet Swiss brown cow named Veronica has learned how to use both ends of a stick to scratch her own back.
This kind of flexible tool use is rarely seen in the animal kingdom and has never been documented in cattle before.
Dr. Antonio Osura Mascaro of the University of Veterinary Medicine, Vienna led the study into Veronica's tool use which has been recently published in current biology.
They say at first,
The team gave her broom brush expect the team gave her a broom brush expecting her to only use the bristle and instead Veronica adjusted how she used the tool depending on which area needed scratching.
I I'm of two minds of this one.
Calvin one is pretty cool because Veronica the cow is really cute cows are cute and a cow using a broom gives us a little scratchy on the itchies.
That's adorable.
The other side.
This is how it all ends.
We don't need to worry about the algorithms, the robot overlords.
This is how it begins.
Cow learns how to scratch its own ditches with a broom.
Next thing you know, we are bowing to our cattle overlords.
Tell me I'm crazy, Calvin.
Dare you tell me that we live in a world where this can't absolutely be even thought of as a possibility now
Well if they interacted with the radioactive shrimp we've talked about and it would really
Thank you,
but I will say yeah, it's neat and it's cute and it's a cool video.
Yeah But on the other hand yeah, so farmers if you live in Wisconsin you've seen them they have those big
bristle brushes in their pastures that cows used to scratch themselves.
And I guess I don't understand what's completely functionally different about this except for the fact that it's in her mouth.
Well, are they using are the cows in the pastures you speak of?
Are they are they utilizing the bristle or are they just like dragging their bodies along to utilize it?
There's a difference.
I mean, she's using the tool.
They are utilizing the tool.
There's a difference.
I think there is a
small difference.
I don't know
how large
the
difference actually
is.
And this is how it all falls apart, my friend.
Before we know it, we're bowing to our bulls in our cows.
You are our masters.
And it all goes down from here.
And the robots are away in the background going, hey, I thought we were taking over in the cows like sit down.
This is our show now.
But that brings us to the end of another edition of This Shouldn't Be a Thing!
I want to thank, as always, starting off with Calvin.
I want to thank Tucker.
I want to thank our traffic department.
I want to thank engineering without any of them.
I'm talking to a microphone that doesn't work.
I want to thank everyone who called, who texted, who commented on the live stream, who was part of the conversation, who, as always, gave us their precious, precious time.
It is so appreciated and we really adore you.
Without you, there is no us.
After the news, we've got Tom Hartman, then John and Gordy in the afternoon, and then
Nightlight with Pete Schwabba.
So don't go anywhere.
Still lots of great programming ahead tomorrow.
Great, great show.
Very much looking forward to hope you will be part of the conversation as well.
Really, thank you so much.
Have a wonderful day.
Stay warm.
You're listening to Civic Media.
Stay tuned.
Stay close.
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