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Welcome, welcome to Matt and air on air.
My name is Greg Bach.
I am your host, your friend, your pal.
And you are listening to us on the civic media radio network right now.
It's me today here sitting in the big chair as usual.
I've got Calvin Butenhof on the boards.
Good morning, Calvin.
How are you feeling today?
You
know, I'm still congested, but I feel more focused.
More
focused.
That's great.
Well, it's I'm glad to have you here.
I'm glad you're feeling better.
You've got that deep, gravelly, post-sick voice that we all get and hope for so we can sound like late night radio guys.
But we have a great show for you today.
Coming up at 935, we've got a modern war expert Zachary Callenborn here to talk about the current state of global warfare here around here in America and around the around the globe.
He'll be
Well, we have been a very interesting conversation.
This is something we really haven't discussed before this deeply.
And with, you know, we've spoken to generals and we've spoken to members of the military, but this is an expert on, and he's been quoted and interviewed in many, many publications.
So I'm very much looking forward to that discussion with Zachary at 935 after the bottom of the hour news.
At 1006, we have Civic Media's Genie of just about everything, Terry Barr on the show.
We will be talking about the story she has put out recently that you can find by going to civicmedia.us slash news.
Civic media dot us slash news You can find all the stories we're working on there from a wonderful group of reporters and journalists that we have right here at civic media But that's where you can find them civic media dot us slash news and then after the 1030
We are going to be speaking with Adam Hess from WRCO.
He's back.
We're going to be discussing and continuing our discussion, actually, of a very important, especially with the end of the year Calvin.
This is a very important topic we wanted to cover, which is his old-fashioned recipe.
And if you have a cocktail, a mocktail, your own version of the old-fashioned that you want to share, send it in to us.
Go ahead.
You can text it in.
You can call it in 855-752-4842-855-757.
You can also leave a comment here on the live stream.
What is it that you imbibe on New Year's Eve?
Is it a glass of champagne?
Is it an old fashioned?
Is it neither?
Do you keep it dry and keep it simple and a style?
But we want to know
what you are going to be having to cheers the 2026 into existence.
We'll be talking to Adam has at 1035.
And then at the end of the show, we're going to do a little bit different.
I guess it could be a, this shouldn't be a thing.
I'd say you're so fast edition because, you know, the year, I mean, we're here.
It's the 30th of December.
By the way, happy birthday, Cully.
Happy birthday, Molly.
And it's a
It's gone by fast so we're gonna I'm gonna share with you my thoughts on the 2025 a couple ideas, but I want to know from you as well
Let me know your thoughts on 2025.
Do you leave this year behind with some hope?
Do you leave it with some trepidation?
Have you accomplished something?
Have you worked towards a goal?
I want to know what you have thought of 2025.
You can drop that on the text line.
You can put that in the live stream.
You can call in later in the show.
We're happy to read out the messages.
And you can also leave a voice note doing that by downloading the Civic Media app.
It is app, absolutely free.
for you this early in the morning.
But you can get the Civic Media app.
You can use that app to call, to text.
You can leave a voice note.
You don't even have to like me to leave a voice note.
That's fine.
But also you can use it to, you can listen to live stream our music stations, our talk stations.
You can get your news.
And what's great is you can also participate in our text to win contest when those happen.
We have nothing going on right now.
But sooner than later, we will announce a brand new multi-state text-to-win contest for you all.
And you can be a part of that fun by downloading the Civic Media app.
So yes, what are you going to be drinking on New Year's Eve?
I want to know that.
Thoughts on old fashions?
Do you have hard opinions?
Sweet sour?
Do you, you know, that kind of thing?
I want to know because that's a divisive issue here in Wisconsin especially.
And then also your thoughts on 2025.
You can do all that by contacting us.
We'd love to hear from you.
We'll love to make you part of the conversation on this, our last live show by the way of the year.
We are in the studio right now.
We are in radio park in Racine, but tomorrow, Thursday and Friday, we will have a, a, a bevy of curated best of episodes where we're going to be.
letting you in on some of our favorite moments from the year, our interviews or discussion.
Jane will be making an appearance in these prerecorded content bits and we hope you stick around for those, but tomorrow, Thursday and Friday, we will be out of the office, kicking up our feet, welcoming in the new year and getting ready for a wonderful, wonderful 2026 here on the show, here for you on Civic Media, but we.
absolutely adore you being a part of our show, giving of your time because we know it's precious and we know you could be listening to someone else, but you want to listen to me because I'm pretty cool.
You're pretty cool too.
So I want to start with something here, not so much different, but I want to get into a discussion with you and I want to hear your thoughts on this and I want you to be unvarnished and I want you to be honest and I also understand if you completely disagree with me.
There was a story published in the New York Times yesterday by Robert Draper.
He covers politics for the Times.
It is titled, I was just so naive inside Marjorie Taylor Greene's break with Trump.
And I want you to go with me on this one because I have some thoughts and they echo and reflect the beliefs that we have talked about on this show since
We started it nearly three years ago when Jane was at the helm in the big chair.
But I wanted to address the topic of those who are or were mega strong, those who have doubts.
How do we, as I believe myself to be pro-democracy, how do we approach them?
How do we help them?
How do we assist them?
How do we be a part of their lives that is growth for them and for us?
So I had some thoughts on it, and I want you to go with me as I said, and I hope that you will, because I hope, and I believe that you trust me on this.
And one of the big questions that we always get, and we think about here on the show, and we've had discussions with varying senses of optimism is, how do I reach them?
Them being those who are mega strong, whether they are family, friends, how do I reach them?
And I'm gonna be honest, and you might not like this answer.
But it is the truth.
You can't.
You cannot completely.
You can't do it completely and you can't do it on your own.
They have to see the problems within this movement.
They want to have to break away.
They want to have to find something.
They need to have that within them.
I know someone who has struggled with various problems as far as like, you know,
weight loss and smoking and drinking, you have to want to make a change.
I cannot be forced to do anything that only makes you push away.
How long does that take?
It's a case by case for every person, and it really depends on if it's the guy down the street or someone you see on TV like Marjorie Taylor Greene.
But I ask this of you, if you meet someone, if you know someone who's starting to show doubt, please do not handle them with cynicism.
It doesn't help.
Skepticism is fine.
Be skeptical.
I am skeptical.
Skeptical.
That is not a problem, but cynicism doesn't help anyone ever.
This article in the New York Times really goes into, and I'm not gonna break down every single paragraph.
I'm going to put it in the show notes so you can read it yourself.
I really hope you do.
I hope you share it and have discussions on this because I think what this article will do is challenge
The reader to say Come on man, this is real we live in cynical times we it's easier to approach a situation with cynicism because we've seen it so many times before where somebody you know Somebody criticizes Trump Trump criticizes them and then everything's fine in a week and we move on and nothing It's like nothing has happened But I but I want you to read the article and I want to make another point too here is
I'm not going to defend Marjorie Taylor Green on her, on a lot of her opinions.
I differ wildly on them.
I will not defend the things she has said to other people as far as calling it a question their patriotism.
But what I do want to talk about is a person who was a pillar in the MAGA movement and showing that someone like her,
If she can show doubt, if she can show concern, if she can ask questions, that means there are other people out there who can do it as well, and maybe already are, but don't have the, they're afraid of being found out.
I don't want to say them the guts.
I don't want to say that.
I want to just say...
When you entrench yourself in something so deep and and something that requires so much loyalty to have doubt to have any sort of Consternation inside about what your party or your movement represents.
It may be hard to talk about it She still doesn't say things in which I completely degree disagree, but I disagree with my uncles and my cousins a lot But I still open door to them when they come to dinner or they need my help
I'm gonna be turning pages here, because I wrote this all out for you.
I know that for some of you, if you read this, or if you read the article, you see her interviews, and you hear my words, you can say, it's easy, convenient, and this is all a ploy, this is all, you know, this is all the safe face.
And I get that completely.
I understand why you might say that.
We live, as I said in cynical times, and we've seen people turn coat to better themselves, to enrich themselves.
But to a certain extent, I get that I get where she's coming from as well because working for civic media and doing the show, I've been called a mouthpiece for the left.
I've been called antifa terrorist.
I've been, I've been horrible.
Things have been said about my opinions and my personal life.
And so I understand what it's like.
I've also been criticized when we don't go hard enough on the Trump administration and even more so when we don't
when we criticize the left at all.
So I understand critique, but this, what she is doing, what has happened over the past few months have come with a price.
She has faced intense media scrutiny on both sides.
She has received death threats to her and her family.
And that's something that I don't have to deal with.
I'm thankful that I'm not that well known.
I don't want to be famous like that.
She has been shunned by the movement and the president she laid down on train tracks for repeatedly for nearly a decade.
A president who four years ago called her a, quote, warrior and always been with Trump in an endorsement tweet he made for her when she was running for Congress.
And one year ago, she stood in Milwaukee
and voiced completely and without doubt her belief and her endorsement in then candidate Trump at the National Convention for the Republicans.
But now, at the end of 2025, something I think none of us would have thought is that on our bingo card, Marjorie Taylor Greene is not mega enough.
And we're gonna take a moment, we're gonna grab some snacks.
We're going to grab some water.
We're going to come on back.
I'd love to hear from you.
I'm going to continue into this.
I want to discuss this some more.
I thought about this a lot over the year, and I feel like this article in The New York Times by Robert Draper really puts in perspective my thoughts on how to approach people in this situation, how we can all grow, be better, move forward, because we all believe in democracy and this country.
Don't go anywhere.
My name is Greg.
I am your host.
You are listening to Matten Air on Air on the Civic Media
Rating Network.
Stay tuned, stay informed, stay close.
Good, good morning.
Welcome back to Matt and air on air.
My name is Greg Bach.
I'm your host.
You're listening to us on the civic media radio network.
You can always call get in contact with us, text or call the same number 8557 5248 4285 575 civically a comment on the live stream.
We are on Facebook, YouTube and the platform.
We still call Twitter.
Lots of great show ahead, including Zachary Callenberg, a Callenborn coming up after the 9 30 break.
We've got
Terry Barr stat stopping by as well as Adam Hest in the second hour.
And we're going to be talking about our cocktails, mocktails, our drinks of choice for New Year's as well as our thoughts on 2025 in that second hour.
So don't go anywhere.
We were talking about the article.
in the New York Times by Robert Draper.
I was just so naive inside Marjorie Taylor Greene's break with Trump.
And before I get back into my thoughts on this, I've written them down.
They're on paper.
I mean, can you believe it?
And Penn, that's not digital at all.
I want to throw it to Jean real quick.
Jean, good morning.
How are you doing?
Happy almost New Year.
And what say you today?
Right back at you.
And I agree with you 100% because I have been a real strong critic of all her behaviors in the past.
And my background's like, so anyway, when I saw her come out of that meeting with those women, when they heard the stories, I saw something in her face, some of the other women that were there that I'd never seen before.
And I could not believe, and I couldn't believe, watch her, there's a change there.
agree with you a hundred percent years ago i followed you know what i was politically involved it's part of somebody that totally did not tell the truth and that hurts like the dick
yes it
does and i'm a little different than her and i wasn't the main woman remember she was a main woman he built her up so big and you know remember he utilized a lot of psychological manipulation on the public you know that when i started it live when he
Treated people you know when they're eating at their dinner table.
They really don't poke that out But it was really real yeah that he connected like nobody else did like he loved the people Absolutely way great job.
Keep it up.
Thank you very much.
I think I give her kudos.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye now.
Thank you so much, Jean I appreciate that I really do because it's easy I feel like there are people out there who can say well Why are you shelling for Marjorie Taylor green and I'm not I'm just being as
Honest as I can be, we were talking about the fact that a person who even, you know, six months ago was seen as one of the mega, mega, mega, mega strongholds in that movement is now essentially not welcome.
She's not mega enough, which is a sentence we have said many times over the past plus, you know, year plus, we have said that there comes a time when you are not mega enough.
and I ask those out there who might be listening, who may have concerns or questions, but support Donald Trump.
It doesn't matter how many hats you own, doesn't matter how much money you gave to him, doesn't matter how many times you voted for him, how many t-shirts you own, doesn't matter how many times you try to break into conversation and try to tell people how great he is.
There could be a moment where you are not enough and she is the example of what happens when you are no longer enough.
She was a Titan in the GOP MAGA movement.
It all came to a head because
She asked questions and she had disagreements.
Disagreements which appeared when the values and opinions she holds and she voiced didn't align with Trump and his acolytes.
Opinions like a surprising view on the conflict between Israel and Palestine.
She came out and called it a genocide.
I don't know if people understand the gravity of someone like her saying those words.
That is huge.
She has been had also a very un GOP attitude towards tariffs Towards cryptocurrency and she was not happy.
She was very upset that the ACA Subsidies were not extended Because a lot of people in her district probably Benefit from a lot of people in many districts benefit and they are represented by Republicans and that bothered her as well But what is shocking and I'm sorry not shocking is sad and
Not shocking at all is a shift in an opinion regarding the release of the Epstein files.
She has been fervent and absolutely steadfast in her belief that the Epstein files should be released.
It is a position that the GOP, the MAGA movement championed last year and into this year.
But where she stands vigilant now, many luminaries in the MAGA movement have changed their tune.
have whether we're talking influencers, podcasters, pundits and White House officials.
And by the way, all those titles can describe outgoing assistant FBI director Dan Bongino, who made it his life's mission to release those files.
And now he's not as vocal, but she still is.
And there's a price that gets paid because of that.
I really want to read this quote really quick regarding her.
one of her main moments, and that happened after the death of Charlie Kirk.
She said, after Charlie died, I realized that I'm part of the toxic culture.
I really started to look at my faith.
I wanted to be more like Christ.
Does she really mean it?
I don't know.
I can't read minds, which really contradicts my uncle's theories on the COVID vaccination, but the last few months have shown a person willing to push back and on huge issues within her party.
And I also know that's where we can also push back with our cynicism.
And I ask you not for two reasons.
One, you don't like it when they do it to us.
You don't like it when MAGA pushes back on what we want to talk about with cynicism and derision.
So we shouldn't do that.
Two, when you push back on them, the one step they took towards us and being pro-democracy and being part of the fight, you push them back two steps and they might go back to originally where they were in the first place and that doesn't help anyone.
I'll close it with this really quick.
I'm not going to call Marjorie Taylor Greene a liberal icon.
I'm not going to call her the future.
But I believe she is brave.
I believe she's a patriot.
And I ask that you would approach situations like this, whether it's her situation that you're learning about or situations on your own with people that you know and love, the same way that you would approach your cousin or your uncle, the ones who drive you crazy at Thanksgiving.
I ask you to please don't close the door on them.
Welcome them in.
Have a conversation.
When we come back, we'll be speaking.
to Zach Callenborn, who is a modern expert on global warfare.
We'll be talking about the state of global warfare, and we still got lots of great show ahead of you.
Don't go anywhere.
Grab a snack.
Grab some water.
You are amazing.
Keep asking questions.
You are listening to Matt and Air on Air on the Civic Media Radio Network.
Stay tuned.
Stay informed.
Stay close.
Good, good morning, everyone and welcome back to Matt and air on air.
I am your host.
My name is Greg Bach and you are listening to us on the civic media radio network.
If you want to call or text get in touch, you can do that by using that same number.
It's 855-752-484-285575 civic.
You can also leave that comment on the live stream by reaching out on Facebook, YouTube or the platform in this house.
We still call Twitter.
deal with it.
But also, you can leave a voice note if you have the Civic Media app, and you can get in touch.
In the second hour, we'll be talking to Terry Barr, the Civic Media's genie of just about everything, discussing the story she's been working on, what you can read on civicmedia.us slash news, as well as Adam Hess returning from WRCO, one of our stations here in Richland Center, talking about
the New Year's and specifically old fashions and his cocktail recipe that is also on civicmedia.us slash news.
And we want to know from you two things.
One, what will you be imbibing this New Year's Eve?
Will it be champagne?
Will it be an old fashion?
Will it be an NA model of some sort, whether it's beer or soda?
We respect all drinks.
And also your thoughts on 2025.
What are your takeaways?
What are your highs or lows?
How are you approaching 2026?
We want to hear from you.
You can do all of that by reaching out to us via the website, via the phone number, live stream, but we want to hear from you.
And we look forward to those discussions in the 10 o'clock hour.
But now we're going to move the discussion to a topic that honestly, like usually a lot of times what happens, there's things where I'm like, I have a basic, I have a basic understanding of what this is.
But today I'm going to be just as in the fight with you guys as far as learning and understanding, because today we are talking to Zachary Callenborn, who is a master's of philosophy PhD student in war studies at King's College London.
He is also affiliated with the University of Oxford, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, George Mason University, and the National Institute for Deterrence.
studies.
Please welcome to the show to talk to us about the state of modern and global warfare, Zach Callenborn.
Good morning, Zach.
How are you doing today, my friend?
Thank you for having me.
And it's great to be on.
I actually grew up outside of Madison, so I'm living in the UK at the moment.
But it's fun to go back to the homestead, as it were, to talk about things I've been thinking about for a long time.
Well, speaking of Wisconsin, I want to get something very clear.
I want to recognize someone, someone very close to you.
Your father is listening.
He is a fan of civic media.
And I want to give a shout out to Mr. Callenborn, I assume?
Mr. Callenborn?
Yeah.
Bernie Callenborn, and I hope he's listening in and enjoys it.
Oh, what a Wisconsin.
Bernie Callenborn.
That's a guy I would buy
a car from.
Now, one of the things I want to point out is in my prep for this, I was watching a podcast, which is weird.
We watch podcasts now for NewsWise.
And you said in the intro that you were a man of many titles.
Really quick.
Did I cover all of your titles?
Um, most of them, I will say one of my, uh, favorite is a us and officially proclaimed us army mad scientist.
Uh, and that is in fact an official title.
I have a certificate signed by a one star general with all the rights, privileges, and the authorities that come with it, of which there are none other than to say that I am an army mad scientist, but that's the one that matters.
I feel like the right that you have is if you tell people I'm an army mad scientist, you then you should be able to like.
put your fingers together and just have a very diabolical laugh.
You are afforded that in your title.
So really quick, I'm reading up on this, as I said earlier, I am not super adept at this topic.
I think a lot of people aren't, if you ask me honestly, I think what we know is what we see on the news and what we see in movies and TV.
And an article that was written, an opinion piece in the New York Times that said, this is the future of war, kind of lays out a situation that made me go, well, what is our, what is the current state of global warfare and the defense there?
When they were talking about a meeting between President Xi and President Biden at the time, and after they had left the room, President Xi's
Bodyguards started spraying everything so they couldn't collect DNA that sounds like something out of a movie But that's something that's very real which makes me beg the question is how has war and the defense and the prevention Changed over time For what we know to worry are now.
How is it changed and what are the biggest developments to fight those wars?
Yeah, I would say I mean
I guess the question is how far back do you think I would you be interested in going?
I mean we could talk about nuclear weapons.
We can talk about some of the recent changes
Um, I would say certainly in terms of what's happening in modern warfare is we're certainly recognizing a much greater Information basis on multiple levels and particularly with the growing importance of computing where modern battlefields were collecting tremendous amounts of information about what's actually happening You know to some degree it's becoming increasingly transparent with what's happening for example in the front lines of Ukraine where achieving surprise tends to be a much more
difficult thing that has been the past because there are so many different sensors from satellites to drones to just people you and I on social media you know clicking the camera and say hey look there's a Russian tank over here guys see what's going on some of the big changes that are happening though are particularly when it comes to robotics and drones what's been happening recently where in the case of Ukraine and Russian conflicts some of these
Literally just commercial drones that you and I can go just I'd say Walmart, but now I'm realizing I don't know where a Walmart is nearby But you know you all in in Wisconsin can it's next to the
Thames.
I made a reference local reference.
You're welcome.
There you
go Yeah, there we go.
Yeah, yeah So you go down to just a Walmart and get a DJI for example for a few hundred dollars And you can modify one of those systems equip it with a bomb and you can carry out
potentially militarily significant attacks.
And we've seen both sides in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia use quite literally these same simple drones to carry out a variety of attacks against tanks, infantry, command posts, and other types of systems.
Those systems are also very useful for collecting information.
Where they can just each of these simply just have a camera on it so you can fly and look and like oh hey look There's a tank over there and that can be used to either.
Hey, let's watch out I don't want to get shot by that tank or it could say be used to relay information to other
howitzers, missiles, other types of things to, you know, go blow up whatever asset that's available.
And importantly, these are being used at mass and at scale and potentially for decisive effect.
There's a recent conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan a few years ago over a strip of land.
The Gorno-Karabakh, I can't remember the name off the top of my head, basically a strip of land between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
And
Azerbaijan was using a number of high-end drones to very significant effect.
These were Turkish provided bear actor TV twos They're not like a DJI, which is you know, maybe a six inches foot footage long these more big spans of like, I don't know 10 15 feet something along those lines, but the as these areas using these systems were able to decimate the Armenians because they didn't have any real capability to shoot down these systems and so
what ended up happening is the Armenians fairly quickly ended up surrendering in the conflict because they just really didn't have any way to distance.
And so it was a significant harm.
And the Pentagon and others all across the world are kind of grappling with, okay, what do we take from this?
What does it mean for the future of the US military power and the conflicts that we tend to talk about?
And so a lot of folks all around the world are struggling to
think through this, I don't want to say a revolution, but the summit is definitely a revolution, and there's definitely some strong arguments that that's what's going on.
If you're just joining us on Matt and Aaron Eyre, we're speaking to Zachary Callenborn, who is a modern warfare expert.
He is a man of many titles, including a mad scientist for the U.S.
Army.
And we're talking about the state of modern global warfare.
And I think something, Zach, that you just said that was there, that you asked
leads me to my next question, which you said, how far back do you want me to go as far as the development of modern warfare?
And I think that's an important thing.
Cause like you say that I can walk into a Walmart and buy a drone and cause significant damage for a couple hundred bucks.
But I couldn't walk into Walmart and buy a tank or the military equipment that's available then and now, but it seems like.
My question would be is what what is the military here at least in America doing to delineate itself from the things you can buy at Walmart versus the things they are using as far as drone capability because if if that's the case then why are not more combatants just walking into Walmart and doing that versus what does the America have to protect themselves from by using a
better form of firepower that is only available to them, if that makes sense.
I'm just trying to understand like the difference, because that's a frightening scenario to say like, yeah, I can walk into Walmart and buy this and I'm off to the races.
Yeah, so there's a couple different dimensions that that are worth unpacking There's sort of the US security like homeland element how we think about say terrorists and there's also sort of the military risks in terms of how our soldiers face threats abroad and They're similar, but there's different dynamics to both those I'm gonna talk briefly about both.
So when it comes to like homeland threats Part of the issue is although.
Yes, you can buy the drone fairly easily.
I would hope that you don't have just a bomb hanging out in your
Now, if you do, maybe not best to say, but generally speaking, that takes a little bit more capability to arm the drone and weaponize it.
And so what ends up happening is, at least for terrorist actors, they have, at least in the United States, a lot of various options.
Terrorists, for example, have been quite frequently using just guns, for example, where you just
go buy a gun and then shoot people.
In other cases, folks have, for example, just gotten rental cars and then drive it through a crowd.
It's horrible, but...
It's a relatively simple way that folks can cause significant amounts of harm.
So even though this technology does provide real advantages, there are also trade-offs.
That $600 drone that you're going to get also is a relatively small payload.
So you can carry a few pounds of explosives, which can be very devastating.
But if I can just get a gun and then shoot up a bunch of people, the horrible
Blood soap calculus that it is like it's a more effective means to cause harm if that's what one wants to do That said there have been a couple cases in the United States where people have tried to weaponize drones In the military context it tends to be very different We have seen numerous attacks on US soldiers abroad in the Middle East for instance from the Islamic State where in other terrorist groups where the Islamic State for example ran I think was like 300 drone sorties during the course of a month.
So basically 300 drone attacks I think that's inclusive of
collecting information, but basically, you know, 300 attacks on soldiers.
And I don't know that there's been significant direct harm to soldiers, but certainly there's a psychological effect of, you know, soldiers having to be constantly aware and ready to deal with this threat.
In the few minutes we have in this, this part of the segment, I just want to know where, where is it going from here is like, is, is the development?
I mean, it's just, it seems like drones are here to stay.
It's a way of also make.
Making sure we're not putting people up in the air to do this work Is there anything that it's headed towards that should give us pause or we should know about that just keeps us informed as a people?
Yeah, so the few elements there's certainly the ubiquity of technology just because terrorists have not used these systems yet Doesn't mean that they won't you know if we briefly look at the huge history of warfare one of the
General observations that we see is warfare tends to be a constantly iterative and evolving thing What might be significant tomorrow might be trivial today and that you know might be relevant You know have never been significant in the past and so we've seen for example Cartels and gangs increasingly use these drones to carry out attacks and one another like that's fairly significant Even it may not threaten you or I like
just the fact that we have weaponized drones flying around is potentially quite concerning.
The US military and others are also trying to think through what does this mean and try to think through what do we look at at scale, where in Ukraine, Russia, for example, they field in literally millions of drones.
Is that something that we need to have?
And how does that look for the conflicts that we have in China or potential conflicts with China?
Namely, if we have a potential war against China, that we have a huge ocean in the way.
And so how do we get those millions of drones over
to fight the Taiwan Strait.
And honestly, I think it's an open challenge.
We really have good solutions to
that.
Well, I want to talk about this as far as drone technology right here in Wisconsin with a new article out of the Wisconsin Examiner talking about something going through medicine and the concerns there in as far as how we approach drone technology by our police.
But we're talking to Zach Callenborn.
He is an expert in modern warfare.
We're going to keep the conversation going on the other side of the break.
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That's a divisive topic.
Very, I don't know how the UK feels about it.
Frankly, if they don't agree with me, you're all wrong, but that's not my point.
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We're going to have a lot of great discussions here on the show.
We are talking to Zach Kalamborn, who is an expert in modern warfare.
And we've been talking about the proliferation of drones, the, the, the.
How they are changing in the in the face of military use and personal use and how that can cross lines and something that comes right here to home
is an article that was put out by the Wisconsin Examiner earlier this month by Isaiah Holmes, who was actually on the show last week to talk about a story he was working on as well.
Isaiah Holmes' great reporter.
It says, Bill, to allow police to down drones, spurs questions from lawmakers.
And essentially a brief overview for those listening and watching is that this law would allow police officers to down or destroy drones they may feel have a threat to the community, to
the area.
And it has come under fire.
There are a lot of questions.
And just as a piece of a little piece, there is about $500 million in grants to help move this along to help quote, protect the community.
And Zach, that's where, you know, it's not modern warfare, but it's definitely, you know, we're talking about drones.
And what are your thoughts on things like this?
Is this something that, you know, giving the police the ability to not only
down and or destroy them, but also making that decision with something I saw here in the story that said bare minimum threats or like there's a bare minimum evidence on why they might do this.
I mean, I guess what are your thoughts on laws like this?
So in principle, I think devolving authority to state and local...
law enforcement is generally a good thing.
The challenge you run into with potentially hostile drone events is that, you know, if you have a drone that's flying at, say, Camp Randall Stadium, someone's really annoyed that the Badgers are going to win the Rose Bowl or whatever.
And, you
know, not this year, buddy, not this year.
Sorry.
Okay.
Yeah.
You know, so this generally speaking, you know, you know, the drone that's 80 miles per hour or whatever, you know, by the time you someone recognize, oh, there's a drone coming, we need to do something about it.
Let's call the cops.
The cops realize we can't do anything about it.
We need to call the federal authorities, which is currently the case under regulations.
Only federal authorities are allowed to defeat drones.
By the time you go through that process, the drone has already hit blown up a bunch of people and caused harm.
And so generally speaking, the idea of having that local control, I think is a good thing and moving that direction.
That said, as I said,
Part of the challenge is that federal regulations do prohibit local and state law enforcement.
So I'm not sure the way that this particular bill gets around that issue.
I'm not a lawyer.
So maybe there are some ways that you can do that.
But at least my understanding is it's pretty strong in terms of federal regulation that law enforcement can't do that.
um and part of the rationale and this is kind of where a little bit of the dilemma comes in to play is that one of the common approaches to defending against these uh against adversarial drones is using jammers.
Basically you sever the link between the drone controller and the actual drone itself and then it
You know basically returns to home or just stops operating depending on the model And so that's a relatively cheap way to defeat them where you just kind of give out jammers The problem is that those jammers they just jam everything that happens to be on that same frequency spectrum as the drone itself which might include say 9-1-1 signals or Signals between say ambulances and communication or other say airport signals So other things that like actually kind of also really matter a lot.
So, you know, if we have all
these jammers all over the place and law enforcement are just kind of randomly shooting them at anything that they think is a concern then you're going to potentially jam a whole bunch of other signals that becomes a and then so even though you don't
you may deal with a couple of drone threats, you know, you've now harmed a bunch of other people because the ambulances can't communicate or whatever, the police can't get dispatched or fired or something like that.
And so you then have potentially significant secondary harms.
And to be honest, I don't know how you deal with that.
I think part of it comes dealing with training and making sure that if we're going to give the law enforcement these systems, do they know how
they
operate?
Do they understand the risks that these entail?
Are they careful in understanding that, you know, you really don't want to just use it any time you potentially see it maybe
But, you know, when it comes to dealing with the potentially really threatening one, that's a real concern.
I think, yeah, I think there's also...
I think there's also a potential value here just in simply communicating that like, hey, this is an issue that our communities are concerned about.
Because I do think there needs to be change at the federal level to think better through how we delegate and support these authorities to state and local police.
The Biden administration was to develop a plan to do that.
A couple of years ago, back in the forest during the
Biden
administration, I'm not aware of how that's evolved.
Of course, the Trump administration, just the fact that we have this bill suggests that tonight's our.
with that, which is, you know, they're certainly a reasonable thing to do and just say, hey, we're concerned about this, we need to do something better.
And so in that respect, I think absolutely it's a good thing.
I, you know, I, reading this article, I, I, I just absolutely just resisted putting my tinfoil hat on because I had so many more questions and questions.
I'd love to ask you, including, you know, I'd love to have you back on the show because one thing that we didn't get a chance to discuss pretty much a part of the conversation is the fact that AI is now part of our lives.
It's a part of our everything.
And, and how is that going to impact, uh, modern global warfare as well?
But that's for another time.
My friends at Caliburn has been our guest.
He is an expert in modern warfare around the globe.
He's got so many titles, but I want to go with a mad scientist as as said by the army and I want to have you back Zach Really appreciate appreciate your time and expertise.
Thank you so much for being here
Happy to be back.
Thanks for having me.
Wonderful.
And Mr. Callenborn, I hope it was a good interview.
He did great.
Any problems?
That's my problem.
So you have a great New Year's act.
I'll talk to you hopefully sooner than later.
When we come back, we're talking to Terry Barr, as well as Adam Hess.
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More show to come.
Matt Nara Nara on the Civic Media Radio Network.
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