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Good, good morning and welcome, welcome to Matt and Air on Air.
My name is Craig Bock.
I am your host and you are listening to us on the Civic Media Radio Network.
Big week, Calvin.
Calvin Butenhoff is here with me.
He is our producer, our ones and twos, our board lord.
He is here with me today on our last live show of the week because we are taking the next few days off for Christmas.
Calvin, are you excited about Christmas?
I think I'm more excited about the time off, but yes, I'm excited about Christmas.
The time off is in itself a gift.
Certainly.
There it is.
Today is our last live show of the week tomorrow.
We are going to have a curated best of a program, which will kind of be an overall retelling of the story of the retirement of Jane matinee who retired a few weeks ago on December the 12th.
We're going to play some interviews, some lookbacks at her time on civic media, as well as conversations with colleagues, former colleagues talking about the impact she had in her 40, almost 45 year.
career here in the industry, but that's going to be tomorrow pre-recorded.
I hope you can join that.
I hope you can listen while you're maybe cooking or baking or just relaxing.
And then for Thursday and Friday of Christmas and the day after, it's going to be Christmas music.
We're going to have Christmas music playing.
It's going to be great.
And we're going to have a really good time.
And then next week, back on Monday live for two big days of shows, and then another three days off, we'll have more best of.
We'll talk more about that in the coming days.
But for now, it is our last live show.
I hope that if you are already off of work, that you are relaxing.
If you're not, I hope you are counting the minutes.
Not like me.
I love working here.
I don't count the minutes.
I enjoy every single moment, but.
We have a really wonderful jam-packed show for you today at 9 20 after the first break We are going to be talking to Amanda Amanda Merkway who is a who works for the ACLU She is the policy director for the American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin She's gonna be talking to us about a piece of legislation that is seeking its way through the assembly right now that Looks to codify free speech
on college campuses.
And if you heard me right there, you heard a bit of a, because there's more to the story than meets the eye.
And we are going to talk about the origins of this legislation, why it's being proposed, who is proposing it, and why it seems to possibly be in search of a solution when we already have.
processes in place, but we're going to be talking to her about that coming up in, uh, in a little bit, uh, Amanda Merkway is her name and she, uh, then also we'll be talking to Isaiah Holmes, who is a journalist for Wisconsin watch.
And we're going to be discussing, uh, flock technology.
If you don't know flock technology, wait, did I say Wisconsin watch?
I'm sorry.
I meant Wisconsin.
My apologies to Isaiah.
He has a reporter for the Wisconsin examiner.
We're going to be talking about flock technologies, flock surveillance, which is utilized by police forces around the country right here in Wisconsin.
And he is going to be basically familiarizing ourselves because this is something that I had not heard of.
This is something that's coming through various municipalities at County board levels at city hall levels, but we want
people to understand what goes into this technology, what it's being used for and what needs.
Basically we're looking for transparency.
So we're going to talk about transparency and surveillance transparency in our police department with Isaiah Holmes from the Wisconsin examiner in the second hour.
And then 1035 is going to be audio Sorbet.
It's holiday time.
So we're just going to be kicking back, talking about what are you doing for the holidays?
What are you doing?
Are you off today?
Are you off tomorrow?
Do you have to work on Christmas?
If you do, call us and let us know.
Tell us.
We want to hear from you.
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Now,
We're gonna kick off the show here with a story coming out of Milwaukee.
This actually took place a few days ago.
Having to do with crackdowns on DEI in our schools here in Wisconsin.
And there have been cases, there have been stories coming out from major universities, whether it's Harvard, whether it's Columbia on a pressure from the White House to eliminate DEI hiring.
Well, that has actually...
Filtered down here in Wisconsin at MATC and this one struck me for a few reasons one I am a graduate of MATC very proud to be a graduate of MATC and the story coming out of WUWM and Catherine Cochle has the byline discussing basically protests taking part taking place late last week on the campus of MATC because of the firing
of four employees who worked in their multicultural center.
And these firings did not take place because of budget cuts.
They did not take place because they are not needed.
They took place because of pressure from, as I said, the White House coming from specifically.
And this kind of actually makes me laugh, sadly.
It's from the Department of Education, the Office of Civil Rights.
They received a letter earlier this year in about August.
They made the cuts in August.
They received the letter earlier this year.
from the Department of Education Office for Civil Rights, starting off with, I think a sentence that I feel like we could all, oh, by the way, PJ wants me to clarify, MATC in Milwaukee, not Madison, MATC in Milwaukee.
Thank you, PJ, for that.
It is MATC in Milwaukee, but they got a letter from the Department of Education Office for Civil Rights that begins like this.
Discrimination on the basis of race, color,
or national origin is illegal, morally reprehensible, and accordingly, I write to clarify and inform that the non-discrimination obligations of schools and other entities that receive federal finance assistance from the United States Department of Education, this letter reiterates existing legal requirements under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Equal Protections Clause of the United States Constitution and other relevant authorities.
That's a pretty powerful opening statement and one that I would agree with.
I think that we can all say
Discrimination based on the basis of race, color, or national origin is morally reprehensible and is illegal, but that is not why they receive the letter.
They receive the letter because the Department of Education believes they say, quote, in recent years, American educational institutions have discriminated against the students on the basis of race, including, wait for it, Calvin, white and Asian students.
That is the opening salvo in the second paragraph of that letter.
So.
In response, MATC terminated these four employees.
These four employees have filed suits saying that they were illegally terminated.
Two of the employees have found jobs at MATC, other places, but this brings up a question that we have to ask ourselves.
We're not Harvard, I'm talking, I'm MATC right here, not Harvard, not Columbia, not Cornell, not Yale, not Brown, not all those other schools that have.
billion dollar endowments who could possibly either pay or afford to fight, but MATC did in fact let those employees go and they are filing suit to say that they were unjustly terminated.
My point to all this being is that when we look at something like the DEI hiring practices, we're talking about the fact that they are weaponizing something that has been utilized for a while now to do good in society.
It's been pointed out many, many times over that when you
diversify, make things equitable, and include, it actually benefits the workplace.
It benefits the school campus.
And really when it comes down to it, this is schools having to capitulate, because if they didn't, they would have lost certain federal fundings.
And as Dr. Anthony Cruz, who is the president of MATC, points out, 43% of students there would lose federal Pell grants if that...
if that funding went away.
So they felt because they do not have the ability to fight the way that other schools do, that they needed to do what they needed to do.
People are very upset about this because of the use of DEI to weaponize the threats and cuts to funding.
When really, when we talk about it, I've said this before and I will say this again, if you hear DEI and the first thing you hear of is race-based hiring, that is something you have to
Just you have to think about within yourself.
DEI hiring benefits so many people.
It benefits people of color.
It benefits women.
It benefits white women.
It benefits the queer community.
It benefits the veterans community.
This is not something we need to vilify.
It's something we need to enhance and make sure people understand.
And when the White House is using that kind of language to try to make schools capitulate, that's the problem.
Because MATC, this all goes from me back to is a technical college, Madison Technical College or Milwaukee Area Technical College.
These are schools that are providing vital services for underservice people from all communities, regardless of the skin color, your religion.
And just as a side note, Calvin, I thought it was very funny when I was reading all of this.
They, in the letter to the, from the Department of Education, it said, white and Asian students.
Two things about that.
One, Asian people are people of color.
Two, we're talking about race-based hiring.
In the United States, Asian people are classified as a race culture, a race of origin.
So the letter doesn't make much sense to me in that sense because what they're doing is using language that is...
Fundamentally flawed to push a point that is nothing more than bullying and we're gonna talk more about possible bullying in the next segment with our guest but to me When you read the articles and you read the letter
It still comes down to the fact that we see DEI as a bad thing and I'm sorry, but that's just not the case and I know that it's quite early in the morning and some of you haven't had coffee yet, but I just when it comes to MATC, that's a school that means a lot to me.
It's a school that serves a lot of kids, adults, older folks who want to seek educations, who want to seek to expand their horizons, find new opportunity, but they need
They need to get that grant money.
They need to be able to afford it.
And when an entity is holding the cuts to that funding over their heads, if they don't simply fire four people whose jobs it is or to work with people of color to help them find options and find opportunity, that is a problem.
And when it comes to Milwaukee and it comes to MATC, that's where I have a problem because, again, it's about the discussion points of what is DEI?
What does it truly do?
who benefits and why do we allow ourselves to be misinformed on a regular basis by it?
We have a guy running for governor right now who is using DEI as one of his pillars of his campaign saying it's race-based.
And when he says those types of things, it makes me think, A, he doesn't know what it is and B, he wants to inflame a certain part of his base.
Well, I'm here to tell you that you know people in your life who have benefited for DEI hiring policies and it's a good thing.
it benefits us.
It's studied, it's proven, it's not something that's all about one versus the other and black versus white.
It is really about the fact that in order to create a vital working place, a vital campus, that is when we want to include everyone and allow all ideas to flow.
And we're going to talk about that sort of situation.
No, that situation definitely with regard to campus.
campus settings campus life freedom of speech the first amendment with our upcoming guest Amanda Merkway who is from the ACLU Wisconsin we're gonna be talking about AB 501 coming up after the break but what I want you to do is I want you I talked a lot there I apologize I really do I want you to go Rick grab some water get a snack come back we're gonna talk about free speech on college campuses why it is important
But why this bill should give you pause?
Amanda Merkway coming up after the break.
Don't go anywhere.
You're listening to Matt Nair on the Civic
Media Radio Network.
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back to Matt in there on air.
My name is Greg Bach.
I am your host and you were listening to us on the civic media radio network.
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It's 855-752-4842-855-75 civic.
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Leave a voice note, and you don't even have to like me to leave a voice note.
Trust me, I have evidence of that fact.
Speaking of live stream comments, PJ also not only asking me to clarify between the MATCs, because we were talking about campus diversity, and in the wake of the new administration, the new wish, it's kind of the shine is gone.
Someone saved for a while, but that's not the point.
He was saying that he is a graduate of MATC 08-010.
Congratulations, go fighting.
I don't know your mascot.
As a disabled student, I was treated really well with many accommodations that make my education there stress-free and that is a great case for DEI school campuses and policies and hiring.
We bring people in and we talk about ideas and we help those who may feel put upon to
Do more with a life that they seek, but that's not the point or that's the that's the early conversation But we're gonna take that theme and move it into our next topic a story coming out of Madison regarding new legislation seeking to codify
Not codify, I should say, to solidify free speech on college campuses.
And to talk about it, I wanted to bring it onto the program, the policy director for the ACLU of Wisconsin to help understand this new free speech bill proposed for universities.
Amanda Merkway is here, and we really thank you for being here.
Amanda, how are you this morning?
We are very, very happy to have you very excited to talk to you about this.
I'm doing well.
Thank you for asking.
All of my Christmas presents are purchased, so I'm really happy about that.
So let's just start real big picture.
Can you talk to us about AB501?
Now I want to make clear that you work for the you are the policy director for the ACLU Wisconsin ACLU I mean as far as I know as far as I've always been taught is the ACLU stands for the rights of Americans stands for the rights of all and make sure that our constitutional rights are protected and it doesn't and it's not about what party is feels like they're being or the individual and what party they may belong to you stand for
the rights of those who want to express themselves.
And I want to read something from your website regarding this, specifically about the, I would say the spirit of the bill.
It says here, the ACLU Wisconsin supports many provisions in this bill regarding free speech and academic protections that simply codify established first amendment protections for students.
So in essence, what they're going for, what this whole bill is going for,
Yes, we should protect free speech.
People should be able to say what they want.
There should be no harm that comes to those who want to speak their mind.
But as you said, when it goes one step further and it proposes punishments for, quote, violations, that's where it gives a lot of people pause on the matter.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I want to get into that because I feel like what you're just saying there is you're talking about almost due process on top of due process.
And we're going to discuss that more with Amanda Merkway from the ACLU Wisconsin, discussing AB 501 and free speech on campus.
When we come back from Matt and Air on Air, don't go anywhere.
Stay tuned.
Stay close.
See you in a bit.
Good, good morning.
Welcome back to Matt and Air on Air.
My name is Greg Bach.
I am your host and your pal, and you are listening to us on the Civic Media Radio Network.
You can always get in touch with us.
You can call or text.
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We are currently streaming on Facebook, YouTube, and the platform that in this house we still call Twitter.
In the second hour, we're going to be talking to Isaiah Holmes from the Wisconsin Examiner about flock surveillance, getting to know all about that topic and how it affects you as a citizen who probably enjoys their privacy.
But we'll be talking to Mr. Holmes.
later on in the show.
And then 10 35 audio sorbet.
What are we up to for the holidays?
And then this shouldn't be a thing.
It is the Oh, holy freaking night edition.
Don't go anywhere.
Lots of great stuff for our final live show before we head off for the Christmas break.
But we have been talking to the policy director for the ACLU, Wisconsin, Amanda Merkway about a piece of legislation going through the assembly in Madison that seeks to codify.
And I thought I used the word earlier correctly, but I'm like, Oh, that's not the right word, but you're right.
codify free speech specifically on campus for our schools here in Wisconsin, including our technical colleges.
But the problem is we all love free speech.
We want to stand behind free speech.
We want to make sure it's protected.
But the people who are putting it forth, there seems to be some nefarious underpinnings, ulterior motives.
And something, Amanda, you discussed earlier was the fact that this is not new legislation.
This has been floating around for nearly a decade.
doing some digging, I saw that, you know, one of the big controversial happenings back around 2017, when we talk about people speaking on campuses was Milo Yianakis.
Remember him?
Not, Nopoulos.
Sorry, don't mean to disparage his Greek heritage.
Milo Yianakis, coming to UWM to speak, and a lot of people were said, if you don't remember Milo, I'm happy for you.
He is a, he was a, he was and is a very extreme right wing pundit commentator.
I would say agitator.
He loved to cause controversy.
He loved to say very incendiary things.
He reveled in that and he came to UWM to speak.
A lot of people were upset and that sort of set off the thing of is there free speech for the minority voices, minority being conservative as they seek to claim.
He spoke.
It happened.
Free speech was protected, but this is still a thing that's happening in state houses up until this point now.
And I'm going to
Traips very cautiously on this because I again, I hate, I hate that I have to say this out loud.
I am against all forms of violence, specifically political violence, but this has really caught more fire because of the unfortunate and tragic death of Charlie Kirk earlier this year in October.
And so we're seeing this again.
But as you said, there are already processes in place that deal with certain problems.
And what this bill seeks to do is put on top of it even more
punishment that can come from the student, from the Attorney General, from the DA.
It just kind of makes everything way more murky.
Mm-hmm
Well, well, and that's the thing is like is like, okay, I've said this a thousand times on this show I'm not very smart Amanda and I am ACLU adjacent lawyer Jason doctor adjacent.
I'm like Plummer adjacent when I read that portion.
It said a two-year Tuition freeze I read it as like are you taking my phone away to and not giving me just like this just seems it seemed like a very it it I don't know who came up with that
And I'm going to call it punishments because that's what these are.
Then these are acts, as you're saying to me, much like what I was talking about earlier with MATC and the DOE letter, these are acts of intimidation saying, if you don't do this, we'll do this.
And then you're in trouble.
And if you do this again, then, and as you mentioned, this isn't just some committee that will
enforce the rules.
This is also if the DA wants to take it up, if the ADA wants to take it up, if the student, like there can be a whole host of problems that come from the university.
And I want to bring it all back to the fact that we're putting due process on top of due process.
And I'll give you an example.
And that is UW Eau Claire.
A few earlier this year, an administrator, and he referred to himself as a low level administrator at UW Eau Claire was suspended for one year without pay because he flipped a table.
at an event.
He apologized, he recognized what he had done.
I would say all is good there.
Depending on who you talk to in the story, one person said this was a violent act, the other person said he just seemed pretty upset.
Like, regardless of the fact that he did a thing, there were actions taken, he was punished accordingly, he made a statement, and they were good.
What happens, let's take that same scenario and put it at any school, UW La Crosse.
low-level administrator doesn't like a table or doesn't like what they're saying makes an action that seems violent that could trigger a whole host of reactions from a various amount of people that can really put the school in trouble for many reasons and on top of a Two-year tuition freeze, but that just feels like schools already have processes in place and they can do the things they need to do they don't need what seems like government overreach almost in the form of a bill that says
If you do that, if you violate someone's ability to speak, we will do X, Y and Z. And then the question I have to follow up with that, who decides, who decides if that person's speech has been violated?
Or the fact is like, if you have one person who says, I love Kamala Harris, no one does anything, but I love Charlie Kirk.
People get upset.
Like it's so murky.
I'm talking a lot.
I apologize.
It's so murky and confusing to me because at the base, we want to protect free speech.
I think I want to say we all agree with that, but this bill seeks to protect free speech with really extraneous and almost ridiculous consequences.
Mm-hmm
And that, you know, a couple of things I wanted to talk about with this regard to this bill.
First of all, this is not a bipartisan bill by any stretch of the imagination.
And I'm going to put the hearing materials on the show notes so people can read.
State Representative Ahmeded Nedueski, who is one of the authors of the bill.
testified in front of the committee, made a very, the opening, as I said, opening is about free speech.
Let's do free speech.
Let's codify it.
Let's make sure we're protected.
But then it turns into what seems to be a lot of, I say this with respect, whining about the fact that they feel like kids who are conservatives can't talk when in fact they can.
I mean, campuses are a place to express your ideas.
It's an important place for free speech.
And if this was a bipartisan bill and there were violations in place, I would be more confident that anyone who tried to step in the way of someone's freedom of speech would be held accountable.
But because of who authors this bill, I feel like it's going to be upset for one group, not for the other.
That's just my personal opinion.
But Amanda, really quick before, and you said you could, we're going to
This is a good conversation.
Keep you for one more segment.
We'll close it out and talk about the future of this bill, but really quick.
Why are, why are campuses an important place for free speech?
And we're going to talk one more segment with Amanda Merkway from the ACLU Wisconsin talking about the AB 501, where it stands, where we go from here.
And I also want to just talk about the ACLU a little bit too about the work you do here in Wisconsin.
When we come back, you're listening to Matt and Aaron air on the Civic Media Radio Network.
Stay tuned, stay informed, stay close.
You're listening to Civic Media.
Find the latest news, information and archives of all your favorite shows on the Civic Media website, civicmedia.us.
Good morning.
Welcome back to Matt and Air on Air.
My name is Greg Bach.
I am your host and you are listening to us on the Civic Media Radio Network.
You can always get in touch with us by call 855-752-484-2855-755.
Civic, leave a comment on the live stream on Facebook, YouTube or the platform we still call Twitter.
You can also text call or leave a voice note on the Civic Media app.
Love to hear from you.
Love to know what's going on.
Be part of the conversation.
And don't forget, in the second hour, we'll be talking to Isaiah from the Wisconsin Examiner about flock surveillance technology and how our police departments around the state and country are using it.
And we should be more aware of what's going on.
And then, of course, audio sorbet, holiday style.
And then this shouldn't be a thing.
Oh, holy freaking night edition.
But don't go anywhere.
Lots of great programming for our last live show before Christmas.
And
We appreciate you being here.
I really appreciate my guest, Amanda Merkway, from the ACL of Wisconsin.
She is the policy director.
Sticking around for another segment is a topic I feel like we could talk about for decades, but it's about protecting free speech on our college campuses by way of legislative AB 501.
And why protection of free speech is important, but what they
Propose to protect that free speech in this legislation gives me and should give many other people pause including folks that maybe agree with the The people who put forth the legislation because it's it's I will put all this on the show It's including the hearing materials because I think that's important to read from all the groups who
spoke for and against it.
That will be on the show notes when you go to civicmedia.us slash shows, Matt and Aaron air, it's all right there.
But we're talking to Amanda about this and something you said during the break on our secret show, our secret online show, it's not secret anymore.
But you said that there was some interesting comments from Democratic leaders as well during these hearings.
It's one of those legislations that sit on a very thin piece of ice because you can say, I'm against this.
Then people say, well, you're against free speech.
Well, I'm not against free speech.
I'm against this piece of legislation.
Well, you're against free speech.
And then that becomes a conversation instead of the legislation.
Now, right now, as far as I've noticed, it's past the Senate, correct?
And it is up for, it's going to be up for a vote.
I almost said, hopefully, my goodness, in the assembly.
Sorry.
Up for a, it's been, it's gotten a few readings.
it still has to pass the assembly.
If it hits governor Evers desk, I mean, he could just simply veto it.
I don't know what the, I don't know the likelihood of this going into law, especially with Tony Evers in an office.
And that, and him being in office doesn't mean it won't get signed.
And we're almost done for the year.
And the next year is what I call their short year.
They're working very short hours and they'll be enjoying 10 months off.
Now that's another conversation.
Amanda, you are with the ACLU.
You are the policy director.
I feel like I can't have you here and not talk about the work you do in the state and what you seek to achieve through your organization, protecting, and I want to make this very clear, protecting all Wisconsinites and all people to make sure that our rights are always in place.
Yeah, and I always want to make it like I'm always very pointed in that is the fact that the ACLU doesn't stand with one side or the other if you see someone who who you feel they're violated you'll Stand you will help and you will protect them and that is that is your job not and a lot of pundits like to make assertions and Assumptions and make statements, but that's not the case with the ACLU
Absolutely.
And honestly, that's the, I feel like it's been the theme of this whole hour is that we're looking at fundamental abilities that in this country that we need to protect, but we need to do it whole hog.
We need to do it completely for all.
And it shouldn't be coming from one point or the other.
And when we talk about, you know, making sure people can get an education, making sure people can, you know, teach people can, this is about saying, if you don't do it, we're going to punish you.
And we're not, it's,
For me, both this story as well as the story from Milwaukee Area Technical College speak to a greater deal of when you take a very important topic like DEI or free speech, you need to have a whole conversation, not just say, this is the thing I like.
This is the thing I don't like.
I will make it all about this.
And I think that's what AB501 is.
It's taking freedom of speech and weaponizing it to create something that will not help.
execute that goal in the first place.
Amanda Merkway has been our guest.
She has listened to me talk a lot.
I thank you for being here.
Really appreciate your time.
She is the policy director of the ACLU of Wisconsin.
You are always welcome back here to talk anytime.
Please let us know.
Please take care.
Have a wonderful holiday and thank you for your time.
Yep.
When we come back, we'll be speaking to Isaiah Holmes from the Wisconsin Examiner about Flock Surveillance Technology and our police departments.
It's going to be a good conversation.
Get yourself a snack, get hydrated, come on back.
You're listening to Matt and Aaron here on the Civic Media Radio Network.
Stay tuned.
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