Luis Rodriguez on Protests and Resistance (Hour 2)

Hey, good morning.

Matt Rothschild here, guest hosting for Jane and Greg.

They're extending their July 4th weekend as any sensible person might.

Thanks for listening to Matt and Air on Air all across the Civic Media Radio Network.

I'm joined by my favorite co-host, Angela Lang.

How are you doing this morning, Angela?

I'm good.

Fresh off an extended weekend, so I feel good and a little refreshed, I guess.

How are

you?

I feel good, too.

I had a nice weekend.

had my oldest son over for Brots on July 4th, like any

good

dad would, and

we

had a real nice time with him, and yeah, had a relaxing weekend, so it was great.

Wanted to get your take on the news of the weekend, which was this terrible tragedy in Texas.

I just...

And, you know, my wife went to camp a lot.

I went to camp for a couple years myself, but she was a camp nurse, camp counselor, you know, camp everything.

And just to see the disaster down there so hard, what was your reaction anyway, looking at that?

Yeah, you know, I definitely thought back to my own camp days, right?

I feel like a lot of folks have some sort of like camp experience.

And in high school, we had kind of like a city camp at night and, you know, thinking about those kids that I used to be a camp counselor towards and just like how tragic it was.

And, you know, trying, I'll be honest, trying to find a way

that is respectful to also talk about how we got here and also understanding that like various cuts of, you know, weather service tools could that have prevented that.

But it's just it's tragic all around and thinking of how this administration has responded to various

natural disasters in tragedies in ways that aren't always the most helpful.

And sometimes we see that responses are very slow.

So I don't know how to like talk about that quite frankly in like a respectful way while understanding the tragedy, but I do think that there are some factors to point to to blame, which is also even more tragic.

Yeah, I mean, 82 people dead so far.

All these kids from the camp and the camp counselors.

Such a tragedy.

The number to call is 855-752-4842.

If you want to give us your reaction to this calamity in Texas, that's 855-75 Civic.

You're listening to Matt and Aaron here with not Jane or Greg this morning, but Matt Rothschild has me and Angela Lang.

So.

Yeah, I was just so kind of devastated by the news.

And initially I was just scratching my head, you know, how can't they get into higher ground?

And then the more I read about it, I mean, first of all, I was at night and then this statistic just struck me as just almost unbelievable.

The river rose 26 feet in 45 minutes.

I mean, that's just, that's just unbelievable.

And so even if you tried to, if you realized holy smokes, you got a disaster, of course.

It started in the middle of the night, and it was just so hard, so tragic.

But you mentioned public policy, and that's what we talk a lot about here on the Civic Media Radio Network.

I was reading a Washington Post article that had this paragraph.

Ahead of these floods, the Weather Service Office near San Antonio, which oversees warnings issued in Kerr County, which is where it happened, had one key vacancy, a warning coordination.

meteorologist, who is responsible for working with emergency managers and the public to ensure people know what to do in a disaster strikes.

The person who served in that role for decades was among hundreds of weather service employees who accepted the early retirement offers and left the agency at the end of April, you know, after Elon Musk and his young boys devastated the federal bureaucracy.

And so, yeah.

You have to wonder whether that might have hurt the ability for people in that area to respond.

And there is a reason we have government.

There's a reason we have government services.

There's a reason we have a national weather service.

The private sector can't do everything.

And this is an important function of our government to warn people when there's a calamity coming.

And I know here in Wisconsin, since we're in tornado alley or a tornado alley anyway, we have the loudspeakers that blare when there's a tornado warning on and that lets us get shelter.

I read in Kerr County, the county was reluctant to put in

those loud speaker warnings, because the county thought it was too expensive and look at this disaster and how expensive that is in human cost, much less anything else.

But, I mean, it is just a disaster.

And it cries out for a re-examination of those cuts that Donald Trump and Elon Musk imposed on the government and on the Weather Service on every agency.

You know, I was talking somewhere and...

was talking about the attack on immigrants and how horrible that is, and we're going to talk about that in this show today.

But in the audience was a federal worker, and he said, you know, you got to talk about the assault on federal workers, too, because it's just devastating.

This person worked, I think, in the ag department.

and had worked there for decades.

But what they've done to hollow out the government, hollow out crucial services, we're just beginning to see here in Texas and Kerr County at Camp Mystic what the human consequences are for these cuts.

And I'm just afraid we're going to see it magnified.

you know, the next hurricane, the next tornado, the next flood.

And again, we should remember that these hurricanes and tornadoes and these floods are brought on largely with greater intensity by the global warming crisis, which the Trump administration denies and has been laying off scientists left and right.

And so you have this convergence of issues here related to Camp Mystic, which are

should be eye-opening, anyway, for our legislators.

For the Trump administration, though they're not looking, even if their eyelids are up, they don't really care.

But that's where we're at in this country.

And it's just, you know, the young girls paid the price is just a horrible, horrible thing to grapple with and wrestle with.

You know, I feel bad for the public officials down there who tried to warn them

for the rescue people who couldn't get to everybody.

And of course, I feel so horrible as a parent for any parent who lost a child there, any person who lost a loved one in this flooding down in Texas, just how horrible that is.

Well,

I mean this is what we talk about when we talk about how policy can actually impact people right and it can actually hurt and kill people and I'm very curious understanding that these were you know small young girls if that's going to be a wake-up call for folks like is this going to shift something um and I think something that we've also talked about too with the doge cuts um a while ago is it's not just like necessarily the folks that are impacted by layoffs and folks that have lost their jobs it's the impact on services right when you're you're eliminating

key components and services that is going to impact more than just the person that was laid off.

It impacts the type of care people are supposed to get at the VA and even announcements like this.

So I'm very curious to see if this is kind of like a wake up call for some folks.

You know, I think it's going to be a wake up call for some local officials, but you know, I hate to be cynical, but

You know, when you have mass shootings at elementary schools and we say that should be a wake-up call and it's not a wake-up call, you just wonder, I mean, I think local responsible officials will do things in counties and municipalities across the country that are in flood zones or in tornado zones or hurricane zones after this.

But will anyone in the Trump administration answer the wake-up call?

I got my serious doubts there.

Will the legislature answer the wake-up call in Congress?

Those people are so in Trump's pocket, especially the Republicans.

It's not even funny as we saw with, you know, the ramming through of that budget last weekend or last Friday.

What was your reaction to that, by the way?

The whole thing just feels like it's very like gimmicky too You know the way he signed it on the 4th of July and you know made this whole big hooplau about it while understanding again I feel like this whole time we've been talking about this split screen of like this dystopian image that the Trump administration tries to portray while like Americans are suffering and struggling I even heard him talk about I don't even know I didn't fact check this but I think it's true that he said he wanted to have like a

like a wrestling match or something next year?

It's just, it's ridiculous.

Yeah, but what was interesting and fascinating is to see so many folks who may not be the big activist or super political that we're taking to their social media and talking about how terrible this was.

Folks on my friends list who I don't see post a lot of politics are talking about how terrible this bill is.

Or if you're an accountant, you're kind of paying attention to what this looks like for you.

It's interesting and we're saying it's kind of like this big murderous bill, like people are going to die because of these policies and what is in this bill and people being kicked off of health insurance and all these different things.

Again, I'm curious of what it takes for maybe

Trump voters, you know, I've seen some folks that said, you know, I voted for Trump and, you know, listen to that, but I'm going to lose my own insurance.

This is going to be a moment, a wake up call, I think, for folks, whether they want to admit it or not, that they let us hear their votes, let us to this moment.

Yeah, I think some people will be having a bad hangover from their Trump vote.

But I don't think the hangover has hit yet and it may not hit You know the way they've scheduled some of those cuts that may not hit till after the midterms Which was a real cynical move and you mentioned you know the spectacle of Trump signing it on July 4th weekend on the date of July 4th I mean I read something in the paper today.

There's a feature on

Stephen Miller, and how horrible

he

is in the New York Times.

And they were talking about he's even more powerful than the chief of staff, Susan Wiles, who evidently her job is in chief of staff.

According to this article, her job is to be the executive producer of Trump's reality TV show, which is a daily show, which is a 24 seven hour show.

She doesn't have time to act as the chief of staff.

She's got to just set

up the

spectacles every day to please the boss.

I mean, you know, that's where we are in this crazy

through the looking-glass world that we're living in,

this

Trump administration.

But that seems, you know, he's such a narcissist.

He just loves to have that spotlight on him.

She knows that.

And so she gives him these venues.

And of course, now the meetings and the Oval Office are reality TV shows too.

She really just sounds like a glorified babysitter, if you ask me.

It's a tough job.

I don't

think she's getting paid enough for that job.

I

mean, being chief of staff to anyone, you already are kind of, you know, any elected official, locally, whatever.

You're already a little bit of a

babysitter but like even more so with someone like Trump in his narcissistic ways.

But I don't pity her she helped put Trump in there

she was his

co-campaign manager and she's made her pact with the devil that's the thing all these people they've made their pact with the devil whether they believe his agenda or not I mean he's surrounded by sycophants or fascists Stephen Miller is both and she is certainly a sycophant and so that's where we are.

You're listening to Matt and Air on Air.

Jane and Greg are off today.

I'm delighted to be sitting in with Angela Lang.

You can join the conversation at 855-752-4842.

That's 855-755-CIVIC.

We'll be right back with Civic Media's own news director, Shelley Pittman.

So stay tuned for that.

Hey, welcome back to Matt and Air on Air.

Jean and Greg are off extending their July 4th holiday one day.

Why not?

I'm Matt Rothschild subbing in for them and Angela Lang is joining me as a co-guest anchor.

We love doing this show and other shows on Civic Media together whenever there's someone on vacation.

So it's fun being with you again, Angela.

Yeah, likewise, always.

You can join the conversation, 855-752-4842.

That's 855-75CIVIC all across the Civic Media Radio Network.

And now we're joined by Civic Media's news director, Shaly Pittman.

Thanks for coming on the show, Shaly.

Hi, Matt.

Hi, Angela.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, it's a real pleasure.

So you were covering the Evers budget or the legislators budget no matter no

matter what time it was

Yeah, what you want to call it and what time you were there at like one in the morning or something tell us about that

I I wasn't there.

I I was watching on Wisconsin.

I I took the easy way out Last last I believe Wednesday all time kind of compresses together

Last week, there were a lot of budgets.

But yeah, Dan and I were up along with Jimmy, watching the budget take shape and watching many, many speeches of lawmakers say this is a compromise.

It was a compromise.

I know a lot of progressive legislators and progressive activists are not happy to say the least about the compromise.

Angela, what's your reaction at

Comfort?

Like, I'll be the first new.

I mean, one thing that I've said, and plus everyone that like watched all of the speeches, I was on vacation.

I said, I'll catch the highlights.

I woke up to all of Dan's tweets and I was like, Oh, that was a late night.

So appreciate everyone that watched it.

And but like, I do think that

There's something to be said of understanding that this is Robin Boss's legislature.

Let's be real.

And the governor has to do the best that he can.

Obviously, the budget that he proposed was not, we all know it's never going to be the final thing.

But it also doesn't feel like some of the things that were taken out.

were something that the governor had to do.

If folks have followed my social media this weekend, one thing I'm very, very upset about is the Green Bay, the line item veto to take out the deadline to close Green Bay, which would have been 2029.

And I immediately made a call to the governor's office and let's just say I just did not appreciate kind of like their response for it.

They felt that it wasn't actually feasible to close it in 2029.

So just take

out the deadline and that there's really no plan at all which is something that a lot of folks have a lot of heartburn to say the least about and you're the education governor and you kind of pissed off a lot of teachers so be very curious to see how this plays into you if he decides to run again for a third

term.

Why they didn't give any extra money to K through 12 except for special ed and why he had that Line item veto on the correctional facility in Green Bay.

Yeah, there's a lot there to dig into so let's dig in fast So let's talk about what the budget does right it cuts taxes which Republicans was a kind of hard Hardline they wanted to cut taxes so it cuts taxes by 1.4 billion It increases the amount of income in the second lowest tax bracket

bracket.

It also gives money to Democratic priorities, like funding to the UW system, or the universities of Wisconsin, about $256 million.

It does give money to special education funding, and about $330 million in funding for child care as the child care accounts wine program officially has sunset.

Now, your listeners probably already know this, but it's helpful to kind of

set the stage.

Here's some of the things that the budget doesn't do.

It doesn't continue the Knowles-Nelson Stewardship Funding.

That sunsets next year.

However, watching the Joint Finance Committee, Republican Representative Tony Kurtz says he has a different bill, and they want to take their time with it.

That bill is AB 315, in case you're interested.

You're right, it doesn't shut down Green Bay Correctional Institution.

Green Bay, along with LaPont, is a 19th century prison.

It is old, and LaPont, nearby, has had a lot of issues with...

inmates dying,

right?

Yeah, that's an issue.

So much so that the sheriff, right, arrested the warden and several others, other staff for the conditions at that prison.

So, you know, Governor Evers had laid out a plan to close Green Bay, right?

It also included reforms for Wappan, where Wappan would no longer be a prison, but it would shut down in the way that it is now.

It would become kind of a...

training center, rehabilitation center.

We didn't do that, right?

And in the governor's veto message, I read it, and I put it in the chat.

He partially vetoed it, and he vetoed it to get rid of the 2029 deadline.

And he said precisely that, Angela.

He said, there is no plan.

He said, I support closing Green Bay Correctional Institution.

And he said, I've been working on a comprehensive corrections reform plan to close this prison, but lawmakers didn't go for it, right?

So instead of setting...

a deadline that we know that we're not going to reach, or we probably won't reach well, I'm going to veto the deadline so we're not going to rush.

And certainly there are a lot of thoughts and opinions on that approach, but he also pointed to Lincoln Hills and Copper Lake, right?

I think, quote, you know, we have a decade's worth of painful experience learning how well it works to set unrealistic artificial timelines for closing prison facilities without a complete and thorough plan.

So that's a little bit of a rundown.

Yeah, there's a lot there.

But thank you, Shelly Pittman, news director here at Civic Media.

But, you know, on all of those things, you know, they should be shutting down these institutions, these penal institutions that are

horrible places.

And just going into the budget to erase a deadline, whether it's not going to be able to be met or not, seemed like he was sending absolutely the wrong signal, the signal that you can keep dragging your feet forever and we're going to never close these horrible institutions.

So that's my take on it.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

I'm subbing in here for Jane McNair and Angela Lang is with us too.

We'll be right back.

At 855-752-4842, we'll be talking about foreign policy.

Please stay tuned.

Hey, welcome back to Matt and Air on Air across the Civic Media Radio Network.

You can join our conversations at 855-752-4842.

That's 855-75.

Civic, Jane and Greg are extending their July 4th weekend today, so Angela Lange and I are sitting in for them, and we hope you'll join the conversation by phone or by text.

In the meantime, we've got a great guest.

on the stream.

His name is Zoltan Grossman.

He's a professor at Evergreen, where he's been a geographer in Native American and Indigenous studies since 2005.

I knew him when he was here in Wisconsin.

He got his BA, his master's, and his PhD at UW-Madison.

And he's co-authored...

or authored several books, including Wisconsin's Past and Present, A Historical Atlas, and Unlikely Alliances, Native Nations and White Communities Join to Defend Rural Lands.

He's a longtime community organizer in Native Solidarity, Environmental Justice, Anti-Racist, and Anti-War Movements.

Zoltan Grossman, thanks for joining us on Matt and Air on Air.

Well, thanks, Matt and Angela.

You know, I asked you to come on literally the day or two after Trump bombed Iran because I saw a posting you had on Facebook, which was really smart and detailed.

I know the mainstream media has moved on from this.

They are crowing about it either being a success or that Trump should have gone farther and bombed more.

What's your reaction?

Well, I think a couple of takeaways from the bombing and the Israel-Iran War is that it's really about regime change.

And just as Iraq took more than one war, more than one bombing campaign, I think both Israel and the US will be back for more.

and perhaps regime change will take different forms.

I'm really afraid of the ethnic breakup of Iran, for instance.

The other takeaway is that it was clear, especially the new Iranian government under Hezesh Kian was kind of...

building up nuclear potential as a bargaining chip to be negotiated away later, to reduce sanctions, to rejoin the world in a sense.

Now,

in what you could only call a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's very possible Iran will turn seriously towards manufacturing a nuclear weapon.

Looking at the previous experience of Libya that gave up its nuclear program and then was toppled by NATO intervention and this experience of North Korea, which did acquire nuclear weapons and nobody's talking about invading.

Um, and so, um, I really fear that, uh, this series of wars is a leap.

You're a little in and out of

instruction.

I'm sorry, Zoltan, you're a little in and out on your audio.

So, uh, we're going to come back to you in just one second.

Uh, you know, you mentioned that it's not going to be the end of the story.

And I'm reminded that Donald Trump himself said just within the last 10 days, I guess he was asked by a reporter, a friendly reporter, or a neocon reporter.

I can't remember which.

You know, are you going to, you know, if you see that Iran is trying to make a nuclear weapon again, are you going to bomb again?

And he said, sure.

We, you know, so I mean, he was right out there with that.

How was old on you said you Iran was using its program as a bargaining chip?

How can you be so sure when, you know, maybe they saw the example of North Korea too and didn't need to be bombed to realize the day we got to get ours?

Yeah, that's that's possible, but Israel has been saying that.

Iran has been a few weeks away from acquiring nuclear weapons for the last 20 years, in particular Netanyahu.

And we saw how claims of WMD led directly to the Iraq war.

And if you look at the map, as geographers often do, you can see that the real reason for US interest in Iran is that it's the only country at this point not part of a US sphere of influence in the Middle East, whether it's military bases,

whether it's close ties in the oil economy ever since the 1953 coup against the democratically elected government that nationalized the oil industry, Iran has been in the crosshairs.

And to kind of look at

Israel's role, not as driving US policy as is often claimed, but to see Israel as kind of a giant US aircraft carrier carrying out what Frederick Mertz, the Chancellor of Germany, calls the West dirty work.

And so I feel that really the identification of US and Israel, you know, the common ground that Trump and Netanyahu have

goes way back and has greater origins than this nuclear issue.

But here it does look like

Trump is doing Netanyahu's bidding.

I mean, this has been, as you said, Netanyahu has dreamed for a long time.

And the neocons in the U.S., I mean, I remember during the second Iraq war, they were saying, we should go to Iran too, even though this was after 9-11, and Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

They wanted to go to Iraq and then to Iran.

And so the appetite for smashing Iran has been there.

foreign policy neocon circles for decades and but

yeah and it was clearly the next stop after the conquest of iraq and because iraq went so poorly and the shias of iraq uh basically rose up and said we are not going to be anyone's vassal state and kicked out the us in 2011 um

that that's the reason that Iran wasn't invaded in, let's say, 2012 or 2013.

But I think, again, taking a step back and looking at the ties between the local and the global, it's not just about Trump and Netanyahu, but kind of a convergence of interests and a convergence of historical narratives around, in particular, settler colonialism.

I think when Netanyahu visits the White House, he'll be very happy to see that portrait of Andrew Jackson hanging up.

because Netanyahu is doing what's basically a trail of tears in Gaza and in the West Bank.

And there's really a clear line between, let's say, the renaming of Mount McKinley and the Gulf of America, this whole idea of manifest destiny.

that

God

gave us this land morphs very easily into Christian Zionism, which is really the main driving force in the Trump administration and its trajectory towards supporting Israel much more aggressively, even than the Biden administration, which was turning a blind eye to the ethnic cleansing that began under his watch.

So you can really see that convergence of influence

convergence of interest becoming more explicit and more open and more openly stated.

Christian Zinan, I'm sorry, go ahead, Angela.

No, go ahead.

I was just curious of like, what do you make of this like Republican split, right?

Because I think of the interview with Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson, and they had a bit of a tense flaring.

And I think there was this idea of, is it regime change?

Is it stability?

You know, what have you, what do you make of that?

I think it's genuine to some extent.

I think there were and I know people who voted for Trump because they saw

We're having again a little audio issue.

I'm not sure about the buffer, but We'll work on it in a second in the month.

I hear that would

extract the US from the front

Sultan we're gonna work on that audio in a second because it's still buffering a little bit, but I wanted to I mean, I did see that interview too.

I thought Tucker Carlson just

just made a fool of him.

I mean, he couldn't even say within 20 million people what the population of Iran was.

So that was fun.

It's always fun to see Ted Cruz having to eat a little crow.

But I was going to go back to your comment about Christian Zionism, Zoltan, because, you know, as a Jew, I understand that Christian Zionism isn't there for the benefit of Jewish people because the Christian Zionists

want Israel to survive because they see it as a step toward the Second Coming when Jews are going to have to either convert or die in the lake of fire.

I mean, that's their biblical doctrine.

So it has nothing to do about, you know, helping Israeli Jews.

You know, it's all about hastening the end times.

Isn't that correct, Sultana?

Yeah, and that always has been the the ideology undergirding Christian Zionism I think that the kind of the subconscious aspect of that is we did that here with native peoples with indigenous peoples and and so the justification is kind of

built in that manifest destiny really morphed into overseas imperialism.

It didn't stop when it reached the shores of the Pacific or the Gulf of Mexico.

It kept going.

And so this particular brand of colonialism, settler colonialism, is very familiar to Americans, even if you don't really know it.

because it's ingrained so deeply.

And so I think, you know, to see what is happening in Gaza, to see what's happening in the Everglades of Florida on indigenous land with, you know, a detention center concentration camp basically being built in the Everglades, there's, you know, a tie between that and the justification of

Gaza, the open-air concentration camp.

that has been existing for a long time and is now being kind of cleansed of its inhabitants.

And so we have, you know, Laura Loomer who's saying, well, you know, the alligators should eat 52 million Latinos.

That's the same kind of genocidal messaging.

We hear from the Israeli fascist right that's within Netanyahu's cabinet.

And so again, there's this convergence

of these historical narratives, both at home and abroad, that reinforce each other.

And so we should always see the ties that are existing between the local and the global and not think that they're two different domestic issues in foreign policy.

That Laura Lumer quote, and I'll try to grab it if I can.

That brings up a subject that Angela and I have talked a little bit about before, which is the kind of sadism that is out there right now with the Trump administration.

We saw it with Christine Ohm down in El Salvador in front of that prison with those crammed half naked prisoners.

And certainly the Laura Loomer quote about the allocator is gonna have a lot to eat down there was also of the same type.

And yes, the far right in Israel have been speaking about Palestinians in the same basic way for a long time now.

And that's what's one of the things so disturbing to me today with Trump meeting with Netanyahu.

I mean, Netanyahu is a war criminal.

And he should be dragged to the International Criminal Court.

And yet he's coming to Washington and being fed it as a great ally.

And Trump was saying what a great ally he was when he.

he did the bombing raids.

And this unity, this unison of Trump and Netanyahu is just so terrible for the image of the United States if we ever had a good image overseas.

Yeah.

And again, this has been there along this relationship didn't start under Trump.

It really

the Biden administration kind of set the stage for this kind of close cooperation and turning a blind eye to ethnic cleansing.

But definitely Trump and Netanyahu are bringing it to a different level.

In the same way that Carter started a lot of the military interventions in the Middle East, but Reagan took it to a different level.

We're going to pick up on the

After the break, Zoltan, I'm speaking with Zoltan Grossman, a professor at Evergreen.

You're listening to Matt and Air on Air.

I'm Matt Rothschild with Angela Lange.

You can join the conversation.

855-752-4842.

We'll be right back and talk about what we can do about all this.

Hey, welcome back to Matt and Air on Air on the Civic Media Radio Network.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

Co-hosting this morning, because Jane and Greg are off, and my co-host is Angela Lang of Block.

And we have a guest, Professor Zoltan Grossman at Evergreen.

Zoltan got his BA and his MA and his PhD right here at UW Madison.

And when you were here, I knew you as an activist, Zoltan.

And so...

And I know you're still an activist.

And I want to get to how we who oppose what Trump is doing and who oppose what the government of Israel is doing to Palestinians, for instance, and what Trump's doing to immigrants.

How do we react?

How do we respond?

How do we resist this?

What I've been calling, you know, neo-fascism.

Well, you resist with?

people power, not just with financial power or only electoral power, but through organizing, old-fashioned organizing.

We've kind of forgotten how to do that.

It's Facebook instead of face-to-face and emphasizing the local scale, protecting your neighbors.

I think some of the rapid response work around protecting immigrant neighbors, extend that to the trans community.

You know, the right wing built up its social power through school board elections and through local organizing, issue-based organizing.

And I think there are a significant number of

Let's say Republicans, independents who might have some kind of buyer's remorse going on, it's important, even if every bone in my body is saying, where were you?

You're partly responsible for it to engage them, to have dialogue with them.

In the same way that my book Unlikely Alliances talked about how even though there was or there were strong divisions and even violence during the treaty rights, the fishing rights war of the late 80s, early 90s, that many of those, you know, rural white fishermen came around and started working with the tribes against mining companies, turning a right wing racist populism into

um across cultural anti-corporate populism and so I've seen that happen I've seen that happen here in Washington as well around oil issues and um you know to pay attention not just to rural areas which is really tough people don't want to rock the boat in rural areas but the small cities the in-between places not just to put all the resources in Madison and Milwaukee but in places like Green Bay, La Crosse, Eau Claire, even Chippewa Falls you know to

you know, elevate activists, organizers in those areas and give them the resources they need because that's, I think, the area of growth.

And I think that that's an area that's been neglected both by the Democratic Party historically, but also by activists, progressive left activists historically.

And so, you know, at this moment, I really think those in-between places is where the battle for the hearts and minds of Americans is taking place.

There's a lot of great organizing going on in rural Wisconsin up north with grow grassroots organizing in western Wisconsin.

Those folks are doing a tremendous job.

I know some of the local, even democratic party chapters like in Jefferson County are doing great work too and in small town rural areas.

And of course, Angela Lang's doing the door to door work with her group at block.

Angela, if you've got.

Anything to add on this question of how to organize or if you have a question for Zoltan, please go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm hearing is the same thing that a lot of folks have been saying is that organizing gets the goods, right?

It doesn't mean we're always going to get all the things that we want, but that's how we combat this kind of like fascist regime.

This how we combat the billionaire class is with people power.

That's I think a backbone of organizing.

I think where I struggle is trying to figure out like how to bring folks in who have buyers remorse, right?

And they may have buyers remorse now and they want to be, you know,

know, part of the resistance now, but, you know, at what point do they say, oh, okay, I got what I need.

Now I'm going to go back to, you know, the other side or what have you.

So I've really been sitting since the election of just like, how do you organize folks who will very quickly realize that they will have buyer's remorse and is that buyer's remorse permanent or is it only temporary?

How do we organize them in a more permanent sense?

I think part of it is there's a learning process when you form an alliance of some kind.

It's important to not just have it at the lowest common denominator at some idea of unity at all costs Because I think there needs to be an educational process that goes on and I saw it with some of these White Fishermen who you know had kind of this instrumental approach to well

um you know uh this mine not in my backyard I'll join with the tribes but it went beyond a temporary alliance because they learned about treaty rights they learned

about

indigenous cultures um they learned things that they didn't know before and so they came out different so any kind of um welcoming of these people into the movement should also be accompanied by

Here's some stuff you didn't know.

It's not your fault.

Our mainstream media or educational system never told you this stuff.

But here's some truth you need to know.

And here's, you know, different frameworks and different emotional frameworks.

It's not just about facts because facts are not the reason that

people get involved in movements, not the mind as much as the heart.

And so connecting with them on a level of, okay, these budget cuts to the National Weather Service may have caused the deaths of these girls in Texas.

What do you think about that?

And so to approach it as a dual, it's not just about unity, it's also about having them understand diversity.

That's Zoltan Grossman.

He's a professor at Evergreen.

He's the author of unlikely alliances, native nations, and white communities joined to defend rural lands.

He was covering the battle up north in the late 80s.

Thanks for being our guest today on Matten Air on Air, Professor Grossman.

Well, thanks so much, Matt and Angela.

It's been a real pleasure talking with you.

And we will be right back with Luis Rodriguez, a poet in Los Angeles and another activist in LA, a tremendous writer.

And I hope you can stay tuned for that.

I'm Matt Rothschild with Angela Lange.

You're listening to the Civic Media Radio Network.

The show is Matt and Air on Air, and we'll be right back.

Welcome back to matinee era on air all across the civic media radio network chains off today as is Greg They're extending their July 4th holiday.

I'm guest hosting along with Angela Lang I'm delighted to have you listening to us today the phone number to call if you want to join the conversation is 855-752-4842 that's 855-75 Civic was a great guest.

We just had Angela

And we had a comment from one of our textors, Tony, says, bring those people in.

Zoltan was talking about how do you organize?

Bring those people in.

Helps build relationships and form connections.

Harder to label the other side as universally bad if you can put a real face to them.

We do need to engage in conversation.

And that's one of the things we do here on the Civic Media Radio Network.

Well, I'm delighted to bring our next guest

someone I've been following for a long time.

I had the honor of speaking with him and I think reviewing his book when I was editing the Progressive Magazine in another lifetime.

His name is Luis Rodriguez.

He is a poet, novelist, and essayist, and activist.

He's written 16 books, including his terrific memoir Always Running.

Levita Loka, gang days in LA.

And he's got a follow-up memoir that I gotta get my hands on.

It's called, It Calls You Back, An Odyssey Through Love, Addiction, and Revolutions in Healing.

Luis Rodriguez served as the poet laureate of LA from 2014 to 2016.

His poetry is great.

You can get one of his books, Borrowed Bones, which was his latest, I think.

And he's the founding editor of Tia Chucha Press.

And along with his wife, he established Tia Chuch's Centro Cultural and Bookstore in the San Fernando Valley.

On top of all that, he ran for governor a couple of times in California, endorsed by the Green Party, Luis Rodriguez.

Welcome to Matt and Air on Air.

Well, it's my pleasure.

Thank you so much.

Well, it's great to hear your voice.

Long time, my friend.

Been a while.

Yes, it has.

And you're still at it, and I'm still at it.

And Angela's still at it.

So there you go.

There you go.

So when this crackdown in Los Angeles began with Trump and ICE, you were one of the first people I thought of to talk to if I ever got the occasion to do it.

And so I'm thrilled you're here.

Tell us what it's been like the last few months there with this crackdown.

Well, as you know, it's been more than a month now.

The worst part of it wasn't so much the so-called riots.

There really was no riots here.

There was a few incidences.

There was people that had burned, I think, five wamos and some graffiti on walls and a few things that happened.

The majority of the protests, and I've been to a number of them, have been peaceful and creative.

They've been music and dance.

They've been speeches.

They've been poetry.

It's not covered by the media.

Most of the people that are protesting are not the so-called undocumented, they're U.S.

citizens who don't want to see fascism in this country, don't want to see this Gestapo-type kidnapping with mass people coming in and kidnapping people.

And now, of course, the whole country understands it, but LA got hit hard.

For some maddening reason, they brought in the National Guard and the Marines totally uncalled for.

Most of those guys had been sitting around.

Millions of dollars to keep them here.

There's nothing they're doing.

The only Marines only rest at one guy and that's not even their job It's not even a job marine to support, please the law enforcement here.

I'm very pissed off at the LAPD, but If there was really big problem, they could handle it, you know, the problem is that the

when they go after the protesters, they treat them really badly.

They're going after people who are just walking away.

You know, they're hitting them with some horses.

They're the ones using the phone bullets.

I had a friend of mine who was out there peacefully protesting.

They turned around and he got hit with a phone bullet in his leg and got really bad.

He had to be hospitalized.

Those phone bullets hurt and they're really not right to use, I guess it's...

It's better than the bullets, but it's still not good, especially when you're not doing nothing, when you're walking away.

You know what I'm saying.

I mean, I guess everybody understands that if somebody goes out there and starts trying to hurt people, but that's not really what's happening.

So anyway, I just wanted to report that the people here are very strong, a lot of unity.

And, you know, it started with a lot of the Chicanos and Salvadorians and Guatemalans and, you know, of course, Mexicans who are citizens getting out there.

But now we have the course of black community has stepped up.

We have the Asian community.

We have other members of other communities being part of these protests.

So I think this is an example of what we need to do around the country.

If you're going to stop the fascists in the government, you have to.

and keep protesting, but you have to do a lot of what are called strategically creative things.

There's a lot more that we can do to fight back.

You know, you mentioned the media, Luis Rodriguez, and they just couldn't get enough of those three or five cars that were on fire.

That was all I saw for, like, 72 hours, practically.

You didn't get to see the nonviolent protests.

You didn't get to hear from the speakers.

You didn't get to listen to the poetry.

Oh, you saw these cars burning.

That's exactly what the media is doing.

This is the legacy media.

We're talking about the media that is supposed to not be the Trump media But you know, they play into the Trump actually the Trump media the right wing, you know Media that they created but the legacy media is also helping keep Putting out that message that LA is unstable and chaotic, you know what I mean, and it's not and and then I even heard

The House Representative, Mike Johnson, say, well, LA had a riot.

We can't allow any riots.

So we're going to bring in that as regards so there wouldn't be any rioting, which was over 30 years ago.

And the city has been building and organizing.

And people have been out there doing a lot of things.

There's amazing communities in LA that came alive through community.

And nobody wants to talk about that.

They want to talk about the one time that there was an actual real riot in the city and a lot of places got burned, a lot of people got killed.

That is something that happened a long time ago and there's been a lot of rebuilding and a lot of organizing since then.

We're speaking with Luis Rodriguez who's a poet novelist essayist activist in LA Runs a cultural center and bookstore there and a little press What is the level of fear Luis in the immigrant community in LA right now

Well, we're telling them don't go out if they can't we got teams of people I say we this is a community going getting groceries for

them

making sure that they don't have to step outside.

Many of them are brave.

They're out there with the food.

Stables they have the tip.

They're still peddling food is still organizing some of them have left their food stuck cards there just to get away But things have become pretty like me my wife walk around the neighborhood in we're in the second largest Mexican Central American community in the US after the East LA area It's all Rasa as they say it's all Mexican Central American But a significant number of blacks, but we walk around and nobody's in the street.

This is a very lively neighborhood

People are just not going out now the citizens and I say the Chicanos and the others who have been out there We're taking on the protest.

They're still resting people.

They're resting people who are just filming, you know, they're detaining people They arrested a good one of my son's friend is a Native American guy who works in the same job that he works at and they arrested him and held him in the parking lot of his job held him because he thought he was Mexican

I also talked to a really good friend of ours who grew up in this country.

He's not documented.

He's Chicano.

He speaks great English.

He's worked hard.

He went to school, got graduate degrees.

He's himself deporting himself with his family and his two kids to Guanajuato, Mexico.

And the issue is that his wife is Navajo, Mexican, and white.

She's a U.S.

citizen.

His kids are born here, but they're going to go to Mexico.

And they're going to go making that decision that staying here is not worth it.

He's more concerned that he gets stopped because people get stopped everywhere.

And he's going to be deported or detained, taken to an alligator out switch in Florida.

In other words,

What they want to do is detain them because it's a private industry that controls these places.

It's big money.

So they're not just depoting them.

They're actually detaining as many as they can.

And sometimes you don't hear from them for days or even longer.

So he says, I don't want to do that.

I'm going to self-deport.

It's a shame.

He's a great contributing member of this community.

In fact,

The biggest lie that the government said is that these are all criminals and, you know, cartel people.

These are all hard-working people.

The people that are detaining are the ones that are actually doing the work, cleaning the streets, providing for families, and all biding people.

You know what I'm saying?

They're the ones that pay their taxes, even if they don't get benefits from them.

Some of them have been here 20, 30 years, and they're being deported.

There is no more legal way to get...

citizenship.

You go for amnesty and they're getting you in court.

You know, you try to get legal papers.

That's what he was trying to do.

And they told him, you know, the average wait for a legal process for Mexicans is 20 years.

If you're Filipino, it's 27 years.

You know, people think there's a big line that people can just do everything legally.

It doesn't really exist.

And so he says, I'm not going to wait 20 years.

I'm going to go back to Mexico and take this American US family back there with them.

Well, it sounds like a rational decision, though, because it's so risky right now.

And you're right.

I mean, there's no way to, you know, to become...

A citizen, if you go to your appointment, you might get dragged away to a prison anyway, even if you're just trying to follow the rules and finish your paperwork.

Exactly.

There's no legal way to go anymore.

So I've been thrown out the window.

So this is, I think, what I call the fascist regime.

And the regime is fascist because fascism has a history.

But my understanding is that even the real fascists, Mussolini and Hitler, they modeled what they did off the United States.

They looked at...

the way the slave population was being held before the Civil War.

And then after the Civil War, they saw Jim Crow and the Black Coles, and they saw the lynchings, and they saw segregation.

They were modeling what they did against the Jews from looking at the US.

So we've had whatever we want to call it in this country since the beginning.

fascism, layered America, you know, I mean, more than one America.

And we've had it for a long time.

And I think even apartheid South Africa and even Israeli apartheid, they look at the U.S.

as models of how to establish those kind of governments.

So we're just doing what I think it's in our history, but we also have a history of fighting back, of organizing, of taking on these things.

And we want a lot of things.

It's just now we're in a situation where it's all being pushed back, but where people are not, they're stepping up tremendously.

Yeah, I want to talk a little bit more about that after the break.

We just have a couple minutes break to go.

I'm speaking with Luis Rodriguez, who is a novelist, a poet, an activist in Los Angeles.

His first memoir, Always Running, was one of the best memoirs I've ever read.

You mentioned the fascism.

You mentioned Laura Loomer.

second person today to mention Laura Loomer, I'm gonna give her a complete quote here.

Alligator lives matter, she posted.

Alligator lives matter.

The good news is she said, alligators are guaranteed at least 65 million meals if we get started now.

That's the sadism, that's the fascism that Luis Rodriguez is talking about.

And you know that's the

number of Latinos there is in the U.S., he's talking about every Latino.

Yeah, and she agrees with you.

She added there 65 million illegal aliens in the United States.

She thinks every Latino is illegal.

That's this Trump regime.

We'll be right back here on Matinair on Air.

We'll be taking your calls and your texts, and we'll be continuing this conversation with Luis Rodriguez on how to resist what we're looking at right now.

Good morning and welcome back to Madden Air On Air.

I'm Matt Rothschild, subbing in here for Jane, and Angela Lange is co-hosting with me.

Subbing in for Greg, I guess you could say.

We're delighted you're listening to us all across the Civic Media Radio Network.

We have a tremendous guest who is staying with us for the next several minutes.

His name is Luis Rodriguez.

He's a poet, novelist, essayist, and activist in LA.

Author of a tremendous memoir, Always Running, La Vida Loca, Gang Days in LA.

He's got other books out there, Poetry and Memoir and Essays.

He is a cultural activist too.

He established Tia Chucho's Centro-Cultural

a central cultural and bookstore in the San Fernando Valley and he has a press of his own, he's done a lot of tremendous work.

And I got him on here because I wanted him to give us the perspective right there at the heart of the ice crack down in LA, what it's like.

And you said we need to be more strategically creative, Luis.

So I wanted you to talk about that and then converse with Angela, who's...

a tremendous organizer too.

So why don't you start there?

Well, I've been talking to a lot of young people who've been looking for me and my wife have been an actor for four or 50 years.

And so they look at us like kind of like an elder of the revolution.

And what do you think?

So we've been meeting with some of them and trying to help guide them.

These young people got great energy and great.

imagination, but part of the thing I tell them is the first important thing is to have a vision of what I call bringing in the feminine energy, which is imagination.

Imagine fully what you want to do, where you want to go.

Make sure you give that as much space as you

can.

We have a little bit of audio.

We're going to try to cut your camera off or you could cut your own camera off and that might help get the audio better.

I'm going to ask Angela.

How you respond about the energy of young people that Luis is talking about?

Listen, I'm gonna be 36 next month, and so I...

I like to think I'm holding onto my youth, but I'm not.

Let's be real.

And when I see younger folks specifically like Gen Z, they are angry.

They are upset.

They are demanding a just world for them to live in.

And it's always interesting.

I was glad to hear kind of like the role of like the organizing elders.

I think there's been some times where elder folks and I have to resist this too of, you know,

We've always done it this way.

We can't do these new tactics.

But how do we bring in and incorporate young people?

I cannot wait to pass the baton to young folks.

And I can just go be on a beach drinking margarita somewhere and helping out where I can.

But I think what we're getting at is understanding this intergenerational organizing is actually really effective.

folks my age and older are willing to kind of share that space and be seen as kind of like organizing mentors and understanding their leadership and supporting and amplifying their leadership, I think is incredibly important, especially right now.

Yeah, Luis, do you want to chime in here?

Yeah, so I think once, especially with young people, you get the imagination going.

They're very good about that.

Then you have to do the next thing, which is the implementation.

Imagination first, implementation next.

And that's where you get into what we call the masculine energy.

The feminine energy is the principle.

It's the constant.

But the masculine is, as you all know, energy.

And I say masculine energy, because I go back to my

business.

We're just losing you again, Luis.

So we're going to have to thank you for being our guest.

I'm sorry, the audio.

cracked up at the end, that happens sometimes.

But I wanna thank you for being on the show today and thank you for your decades and decades of great work as an activist, as a political activist, as a cultural activist, and as a tremendous writer.

You're just an inspirational figure for me.

Again, I wanna have our listeners

go get at least one of your books.

The first one that I read was Always Running, La Vida Loca, Gang Days in LA, and Luis has another memoir called It Calls You Back, An Odyssey Through Love, Addiction, Revolution, and Healing, and his book of poetry, Borrowed Bones, is available to you too.

Luis Rodriguez, thanks so much for being our guest today, and we'll pick this up some other time.

It's great to hear your voice.

I think what I would love to kind of like dig into is kind of like this idea of the role of arts in culture.

And I think, you know, you Matt, you're always bringing poems and I think that's so important.

We dabbled into some of these conversations, but like the role of culture in community, you know, through the arts and what that means right now.

You know, I've heard folks say, yes, this.

brand of fascism that we're experiencing right now is maybe new to a lot of folks.

But if you look back into poetry or to art of how people were able to build community, I think is something that's really important right now with kind of the mutual aid and how are people doubling down and taking care of themselves.

There is a role that arts and culture plays in that as well too, in my opinion.

Yeah, totally.

I mean, I'm reminded of the poet, June Jordan, who used to

Have a poetry for the people thing going up on Berkeley.

She she wrote for the progressive for many years essays and poetry I think a new generation of activists are picking up June Jordan's poetry and getting acquainted with What she said the energy to the broad she the insights that she brought the intelligence that she brought and you're right Angela The work that Luis Rodriguez does that other poets and activists and singers and artists do that hits us in a different way I mean, that's one of the ways to be

strategically creative as Luis Rodriguez said.

And I think we need to open our eyes to that and our ears to that and it will make this period we're in much easier to get through.

And also will inspire people in a lot of ways that, you know, any conversation or 100 op-eds can't do.

The art can reach people in a way that...

that commentary can't, and so we need to uplift the arts.

Again, I want to thank Luis Rodriguez for being our guest today on Matt and Air on Air, and we'll be right back.

We will have a little poetry, a little bird song, a little, this shouldn't be a thing.

In the next half hour, you're listening to Matt and Air on Air on the Civic Medium radio network.

Hey, welcome back to Matt and Air on Air all across the Civic Media Radio Network.

Jane and Greg are off.

That's why it's the Matt Rothschild and Angela Lange show today.

Thanks for listening, and you can join the conversation at 855-752-4842.

That's 855-75 Civic.

Great to have Luis Rodriguez on.

It's a great conversation.

We got to have him back.

I want to continue learning.

More also, it's like what happened in LA folks are thinking is gonna move to Chicago or to other places And so I think it's important to again going back to like the arts and culture to documents are

our resistance in real time, not only for future generations, but I think also to share that information across the country too of what are some lessons learned from LA in cases does spread to other places.

We live in Wisconsin.

We know that a lot of policy in our legislature is kind of experimented in Wisconsin and it goes to other places.

So how can we kind of continue to build with these organizers in some of these

these cities and states that are being attacked.

Yeah, and Trump keeps threatening, you know, to bring ICE to a democratic stronghold.

So that means,

you

know, Madison

Milwaukee.

And so we need to be ready for it and learn the lessons they're teaching us in LA, the folks who are resisting so well and so non-violently as Luis Rodriguez put it.

And yeah, I wanted to hear more from him on the importance of cultural resistance.

And I was just sad that the audio wasn't good enough for us to get his answer to that.

And, you know, I'd mentioned June Jordan, so I just want to read a couple stanzas from a famous poem that she wrote poem for South African women.

The babies cease alarm as mothers raising arms in heart, high as the stars, so far unseen, nevertheless hurl into the universe a moving force, irreversible as light years traveling to the open eye.

Who will join this standing up, and the ones who stood without sweet company will sing and sing back into the mountains, and if necessary, even under the sea, we are the ones we've been waiting for.

That's the famous line of hers at the end that a lot of people use now, but that's where it comes from.

Poem for South African women, that's June Jordan.

No longer with us.

She used to teach at Berkeley.

She was in Madison.

I first met her in Madison.

Actually, my wife Jean said there's this poet who's speaking at...

Helen C. White, the English department in Madison, one summer many, many years ago, and she said, you should go see it.

I was a young editor at the Progressive at the time.

So I went and saw her, and I was just so blown away by her reading that I waited afterwards and bought three of her books of poetry.

And the next day, I made a pitch to Erwin Old, who was then the editor at the Progressive, that, hey, we got to get this great writer in the Progressive.

And so we did.

So that was one of the...

One of the great things that we were able to do get June Jordan writing in the progressive magazine She's still inspiring people today, and she's been gone.

I want to say for Well more in a decade anyway, so yeah, so that's just a sample I do believe in in poetry and art and music and painting To move people in ways that their regular conversation doesn't it just hits a different part of the brain

different oracle of the heart or something

you know

it's just it's it gets people uh and Howard Zinn used to teach that too he used to talk about that all the time so uh I wanted us to be able to acknowledge that I had brought a different poem that I may read or I may not depending on how I feel here in this next half hour but since we brought up June Jordan you know there we go uh Jane does something uh on this show called uh this shouldn't be a thing

And so I wanted to honor the work that she and Greg do by just doing a little ones, because I researched some idiotic things that happened over the weekend, or odd things.

And here was one, this shouldn't be a thing, be sure to lock your door edition, your car door edition that is.

This is from Colorado, from a county just west of Denver, where Golden Colorado is.

Late last week, a bear managed to close itself inside a red SUV in Colorado and demolished the interior of the vehicle before being freed by a sheriff's deputy.

The Jefferson County Sheriff's shared body camera footage, which I saw this morning and you can look it up too, that was recorded by the.

the deputy.

So what happened was some the owner of the red SUV called the cops saw that there was a bear in his car.

The officer arrives.

He gets out a rope, ties it to the handle of the door, and then they go hide, and they pull the door open, and the bear comes out, but he just, the bear had totally trashed the inside of the red SUV, and the police said, make sure you lock your cars when you're in bear country, and might not be a good idea to keep food in that locked car either.

And so I thought that was funny, and so that shouldn't be a thing, there you go.

Jane and Greg, I gave a nod to you while you're gone, but I do want to also say...

There was a black bear seen in Stoughton or near Stoughton,

and

I live about five miles from Stoughton.

So I thought that I saw the video on Facebook of a bear going through someone's garbage in the Stoughton area here in southern Dane County.

So there's a lot going on.

We get some of that Milwaukee too.

Like a few years ago, we had what we dubbed the Milwaukee lion.

uh that was just like roaming around um and you know we've had like just different random animals and it's so funny in like a city like Milwaukee but like as a city girl like I I know some people have some family that live out in the country and like they don't lock their doors whether it's their car door or like their house door and I as a city woman could not fathom going anywhere I also drive a Kia

which, you know, you're not, you got to lock everything up.

And that's, you know, I don't know, it blew my mind when I learned that some folks just like don't lock their house or like their car.

Like in Milwaukee, my keel would be stolen in .5 seconds.

Yeah, I know people have gotten their car stolen, their bike stolen real fast if it's not locked.

And you mentioned wildlife and urban areas.

I was

10 days ago, visiting a brother of mine in Evanston, Illinois, about three blocks from Central Avenue in Evanston, that's downtown Evanston, and a coyote walked right down their street.

And it was funny, though, because of three neighborhood kids, they couldn't have been more than...

one, eight, 10 and 11.

They just, they thought it was the greatest thing ever and started to

run

down the sidewalk, follow the coyotes, see if they could track it down.

Again, the coyote.

They thought we were going to try and catch it.

I don't

know.

Coyote didn't seem to be that scared.

That's the thing about coyotes.

They just kind of look at you.

I

mean, I saw one in the Madison Arboretum once.

I was bird watching down there and there was a coyote about 30 yards away.

It looked at me, looked back.

And just kind of sauntered away wasn't

yeah

in any hurry That's okay.

I

guess coyotes are a thing now almost everywhere

Yeah, I mean what people say too is like you got to just be careful of like your pets, right?

Like if you have indoor outdoor cats for example, right?

Like if there's a coyote around you might want to be careful But yeah, it's it's so interesting in in kind of like urban areas in cities to see some of these animals

And then they kind of just turn into memes and they kind of turn into this moment where like folks are talking about it.

I remember, and I'm sure you remember, I don't remember the name, but like a couple summers ago, there was like this beautiful bird that like came to Milwaukee that everybody was like obsessed with this like beautiful bird and they would go like seek out this bird.

And these are people that were like not bird watchers or anything.

And I kind of like those wholesome moments that kind of break up city life where like

the community can just come together over something very silly, very wholesome.

A couple summers ago, we had these like, I don't know, life-size statues of like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and they would make their rounds and they would go to different local businesses.

And, you know, it was a fun time.

And I think about, you know, some of these animals and how they can, you know, be a little bit of a reprieve from what we're seeing on a day-to-day basis and seeing something kind of fun and different and wholesome for once in our city.

And I know,

In rural areas in Wisconsin, people started to see mountain lions.

For a while, the DNR

was

saying, no, there are no mountain lions in Wisconsin.

And then people's trail cams start picking up the mountain lions.

And there is no denying that there are mountain lions.

And they can cover a lot of territory too.

I mean, I'd love to see a mountain lion.

I'd like to see it if I'm in my car and the car is locked.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I see it from a distance.

Cool.

I see you.

I'm safe.

So are you?

Yeah, I don't want to see one when I'm walking on a trail with my binoculars.

Yeah, very different from bird watching.

Yeah, no, it's a little dice here.

We were at

Rocky

Mountain National Park once.

My wife and I on a trail where there were signs, beware of mountain lions all over the place.

And I smelled cat urine.

And so

that was a

suggestion that they might be a little too close.

So

we

were making a lot of noise.

We survived it.

We didn't

see them.

But

I think they saw us.

That's the thing when you're

out.

Yeah.

So if you're listening and you've seen a strange, unusual wildlife sighting, give us a holler 855-752-4842.

That's 855-75 Civic.

When I was on Friday, I was on for Maggie.

I had a caller or a texture saying, why don't you play the...

play the song of the Eastern Wood Pee Wee, he said.

Now the Eastern Wood Pee Wee, for those who aren't bird fanatics like me, it's a little fly catcher like the Phoebe.

Most people know the, a lot of people know what a Phoebe is, but anyway, a Phoebe and Eastern Wood Pee Wee are very small.

Well, they're between a robin size and a golden size.

Little fly catchers that hang out on the perch of a tree, way out on a twig, go grab a bug and come back and sit back on that same perch.

So,

This guy was from Washington County.

I want to honor his request to play the Eastern Wood Pee Wee.

I think it was Tom.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Here's the Eastern Wood Pee Wee for you.

That's the background.

That's the Eastern Wood Pee Wee right there.

That two syllable thing or stretched out two syllable thing.

We'll get one more and call today.

There it is.

So that's the Eastern Wood Pee Wee.

I heard one yesterday while I was sitting out on my porch.

So they are around.

They sing all summer long.

That's a two note high pitched Eastern Pee Wee Wood Pee Wee.

Yeah.

They look

very different from the other one that you played where it was.

I remember what it was, but it was kind of more obnoxious.

Oh, is the screeching

door sound.

That was the yellow

headed

Blackbird.

that I was supposed to go to Horocon Marsh to see this weekend, but I'm gonna go on my birthday, which is coming up in three days.

I'm gonna leave

my house at about,

thank you, 67, oh god.

But I'm gonna leave at about six in the morning or 5.30 in the morning and try to see as much of Horocon Marsh as I can in about two or three

hours.

I'll come back with new bird songs from Horocon Marsh next time I'm on there

after

that for sure.

But it's been a hobby that's been with me since I was,

a geeky, fat, odd little kid growing up.

And people would wanna be out playing baseball and I wanted to be in the woods with my binoculars.

And it started because we were in the kind of a rural part of a suburb of Northern Chicago.

And in one winter we had pheasants in the backyard, a ring neck pheasants, like one male and six or seven or eight females.

And they're just so beautiful that as a three or four girl, I just thought it was the most cool thing ever.

So that was my origin.

bird story.

And so ever since I've been about three

or

four, I've been watching birds and bird watching is hot right now.

Amy Tan has a book out about being a bird watcher and drawing pictures of birds.

And yeah, so it's now in when it was a it was not so in when I was doing it, but it's

always been

fun.

State Rep Darren Madison is a bird or two.

And he'll go bird watching.

He has a couple of friends he goes bird watching with.

I am putting in a request.

I want a podcast episode between you and Rep Madison about birding.

Like, I just want one hour of just following you two around while you all bird.

Oh, that would be great.

I'd love to do it with Darren.

You're listening to Matt and Air on Air.

I'm Matt Rothschild, Cheese Angela Lang, and we'll be right back with you.

Hey, we're back.

Matt Nair on air on the Civic Media Radio Network.

Thanks so much for listening.

Jane and Greg are off today.

That's why you've been listening to Matt Rothschild and Angela Lang.

It's been an honor to be able to be with you.

I want to thank Jane and Greg for giving us this opportunity.

It's always fun to be able to sit in for them.

It's also great listening to their show.

I love their show.

I think

it's a great mix of...

politics and then kind of some lighter stuff in this last half hour, which I always enjoy.

This shouldn't be a thing.

Is

it just a great anchor for the program?

So I admire what they're doing.

I think it's great radio and great conversation.

You know, civic dialogue that we try to foster here on the Civic Media Radio Network and Jane's great at it and so is Greg.

So good luck to them.

I hope they've had a nice vacation.

I look forward to hearing them tomorrow.

I wanted to also thank Dom Lee who has been producing the show today on the fly.

I don't think he knew what he was doing until about 5.30 this morning.

That was partially my fault or I didn't have it in my calendar.

But yeah, we just kind of got on and Matt.

And Angela, thank you guys so much for... You made it work.

Yeah, yeah, it all worked out in the end and we got it done and it was great show, 100%.

Good show,

thank you.

And Dom's terrific, he's been working with me on my Wisconsin Forward podcast too.

This is his first job, fresh out of college.

He just jumped straight into the workforce and he's been climbing the learning curve in record time, so it's great

to have you here at Civic Medium.

Yeah, I normally...

I'm a producer for John and Gordy But as of recent I've been kind of going around other shows something in what needed to and Each time I hit that same question comes up like oh man youngest person, you know, he's just coming out of college So thank you so much Matt for for talking about that and I appreciate it.

No, it's fun working with it Now we just got through doing some nerdy bird talk.

Are you a bird watcher?

Are you a nature lover?

I'm a nature lover.

I can't say

I can't say I love birds.

I mean, they're cool.

Don't get me wrong, but I would say I like other type of animals, specifically the honey badger.

I love the honey badger.

Oh, me too.

But yeah, birds, I really like doves.

Doves are awesome.

You know, it's funny about doves because the morning dove that's spelled with a U, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G.

People will hear the morning dove and they think there's an owl out there because the morning dove sounds a little bit like an owl And but you know if it's in the middle of day I guarantee it's probably not now.

Yeah, it's probably probably a morning dove because the owls come at night I heard an owl last night again.

I'm sitting on my porch Just goofing around online on Facebook as it was getting dark out

And hands off for my wife for insisting we get her screened in porch at our house, because it's great now.

And I resisted

it

forever, because I didn't want to spend the money, but it's been well worth it.

And I'm out there, it turns dark, and there's a thrush singing, there's this eastern wood billy singing, and then boom, there's an owl that is booming.

booming call, so that was awesome last night.

So it was a lot of fun.

Dama, I might get you a, maybe I should get you one too, Angela.

Bird Book and a cheap pair of glasses.

I always advise people, don't spend a lot of money on binoculars, especially your first binoculars, but I'm on my 10th pair and I won't spend more than a couple hundred bucks on it.

You can get ripped off, you know, they're stores that are selling them for thousands of dollars.

Just get a

cheap

pair.

And that'll be all you need so

I feel like as long as they work.

Yeah as long as they work You

can get bit by the bird bug and it'll be it'll be with you forever.

It's a virus You can't

I don't think I've ever had binoculars, but I have a feeling if I ever did I would never I would always just hold on to them I would always watch everything with them.

I wouldn't even use my own eyes You know I mean I just used the binoculars instead.

So why not?

Yeah,

right.

Hey, we got Chris Casper, Civic Media's own saying we've got a pair of great horned owls that we hear in our backyard quite often.

I just love it.

Nice.

All right, I said I had another poem.

I'm gonna read another poem.

You know, for art and to reach you, it doesn't have to be political art.

It can just be beautiful art, and that will get you out of your funk.

We gotta get out of our own funks and be active, but it doesn't have to be a political poem.

Here's a beautiful July summer poem by one of my favorite poets, W.S.

Merwin.

It's simply called Summer Sky, and it's real short.

July with sun-filled leaves drifting among the butterflies.

I've been coming to this morning light since the day I was born.

I saw its childhood as I sat alone in silence by the high window.

No one else saw it.

No one else would ever recognize it.

It is the same child now who watches the clouds change.

They appear from out of sight and change as the moment passes through them.

That's W.S.

Merwin, Summer Sky.

Beautiful

beautiful little poem.

Yeah It reminds me of a Wordsworth line the father is a child of the man Or no child is the child is father of the man And I only wish my days would be filled each by each with natural piety That's Wordsworth, but it was kind of an echo there in that W. S. Merwin poem I do love poetry.

I think poetry can can really if it's a nice little condensed I have a bias for short poems

I know some people write long, long poems, but I love the short, condensed poem like that.

And, you know, I think you can really pack a lot into a short poem.

And if it's done perfectly, it can stay with you forever.

My dad used to recite a different Wordsworth poem about daffodils, which is an amazing poem too.

So I learned a little poetry from him.

He did it to show off.

He was a bit of a show off.

I do it in part to show off, but in part just because I love, I just love poetry and I think that can bring you to a different place.

Angela Lange, thanks so much for co-hosting with me today on Man in Air.

It's been a real pleasure as always.

Always.

Good show.

Thanks for always having

me.

Oh, I can't wait till we can do it the next time.

And Dom, thanks again for producing.