“You Can’t Erase History!” Affirmative Action (Hour 1)

Good morning and welcome to a Motown Monday on the Earl Ingram Show.

As always, you can join us at 855-752-4842.

That's 855-752-4842.

Text us that same number.

Hey, good morning to you.

Brother, how you doing?

Man,

I'm... Brother Cardi, how you doing, man?

I'm all bad, I'm all bad.

I thought we were talking to the guests today,

man.

No, man, I'm talking to you right now.

How you doing, man?

It's a good day, man.

It's a good day.

I'm back.

It's Monday.

It's Motown Mondays, man.

It's gonna be a good episode today.

I know you got a good man on the show today.

Man, it's great.

Man, as you and I started to build our rapport, I'm happy to have you on board.

I greatly appreciate that.

All right, so it's welcome to a Motown Monday on the Earl Ingram show.

As always, you can join us at 855-752-4842.

855-752-4842.

It's also Black History Month.

And so a week or so ago, I had a brother on the air with me, Reggie Jackson, who's an award-winning journalist, speaker, researcher, writer.

a historian and, and has received so many different awards.

If I had to take the time out, why do you keep all those awards, man?

Uh, well, I have some of them were actually right behind me, Earl.

Yeah.

But my, uh, my, uh, my basement, uh, kind of studio and the rest are upstairs in a variety of different places.

Yeah.

Well, my, my, uh, in my, um, China cabinet.

I was

just thinking, you know, uh, we get these awards of recognition and, uh, you know, I haven't done anything with the mother and put them, put them away, but you have so many and so many prominent, uh, awards.

Let me, let me name a few man.

Um, you know, let me, let me begin.

Uh,

You the why why WCA 2016 courageous love award from the first Unitarian Society of 2017 Frank P. Zyla public service award people knew who Frank Zyla was they would know the impact of that ward Because Frank Zyla a philanthropist who's after his death set up, you know a trust fund that that is being

used as he disseminated his wealth To deal with issues that impact and affect people in in the community in poor communities He he certainly could have did like many others, but he was such a special man Reggie to receive that award your thoughts

You know, I'm always honored I was on the the board of directors of the Frank P. Silas Center for public discussion and work with You know former mayor's daughter.

Yes

before her passing, and it was just an honor to be in that space with people that were fulfilling some of the things that he wanted to fulfill for the city of Milwaukee after his death.

You received the first ever Mike of Milwaukee in the city, a congregations ally for Hope Legacy Award.

You received the Robert H. Freebert Social Justice Award from the Jewish Community Relations Council.

You received...

the independent because you're a writer for the independent community relations writer for the Milwaukee Independent, contributing writer to the Huffington Post, his 2018 column for the Milwaukee Independent won a 2017 Silver Award for Best Online Column from the Milwaukee Press Club and 2018 Gold Award for Best Online Column and Silver Award for Best Writer Column.

Uh, you served as a race relations expert for CNN, Wisconsin public radio, the Chicago tribute on and on and on, man.

And so I just want people understand the magnitude of the person that I have on the air today, but more than any of those things, man, you're my friend, man.

And, uh, and man, uh, you know, that's invaluable to me.

Yeah, absolutely.

Earl, uh, you know, I appreciate good friendships.

And I appreciate people that are doing things to make our community better.

And that's part of the reason I continue to support the work that you do.

I think that, you know, your voice and the voice of the guests that you bring on the air on a daily basis, Monday through Friday, you know, gives give voice to our community in a way that, you know, few others do.

So,

Reggie, let's let's begin.

I thought it was important, man.

The the Kerner, the Kerner Commission.

for people who don't know.

Back in 1968, Lyndon Johnson commissioned the Kerner to do a report on what was happening in our nation and clearly there was a

There was just so much unrest going on in our nation at that time.

The civil rights movement was really at its apex almost, and people just weren't taking what they had taken in the past.

My parents' generation, the great generation, I guess is what they referred to it as,

Came here from the south and they dealt with some horrible horrible things That went on in the south of course segregation was legal In the south it wasn't in the north, but that didn't mean it didn't exist But there's so many so much unrest that was going on in the nation Reggie the current report well Tell us a little bit about the current report me

of 1968, because there's another one that came out 50 years later, but the current report of

1968.

This commission, current commission was, you know, asked by President Johnson to explore, you know, the cause of civil unrest across the country.

And they took a very deep look into the causes of these situations in cities across the country, including Milwaukee, the civil unrest we had in Milwaukee in 1967.

And they wanted to, you know, they were commissioned specifically to find out what was causing these.

And what can we do about them?

And so part of the current commission, I think most people miss out on is they made a series of recommendations at the end, some that were followed, most that were ignored.

And one of the probably the most interesting things to me about the current commission report was the fact that President Johnson wasn't happy with what it said because it basically said that the cause of all of this civil unrest is white racism.

and the way black people have been treated.

And President Johnson didn't expect that to be the finding of this commission.

And so he never invited them to actually speak with him about their report.

And he pretty much just kicked it to the curb for the most part, ignored their recommendations.

And I think had they followed through with those recommendations and done what the current commission report asked, I think there would be a lot further ahead as a nation.

A lot of the problems that we're dealing with today, I don't think we'd be still dealing with in the same way.

You know,

I

always tell people the best thing to do is just to read the reports yourself because there's so much in it, Earl.

It's so much just valuable, valuable information that no one can really tell you what's in it without you taking a deep dive into it yourself.

You know, it's available online.

It's very easy to find.

And it's easy to read.

Very easy to read.

You know, so so it basically said poverty and institutional racism were the driving inner city violence.

And and so, you know, with that, having been said, pent up frustrations boil over in many poor African-American neighborhoods during the mid to late 1960s, setting off rise to a rampage out of control from block to block.

burning, battering, and ransacking property-raising crowds created chaos in which some neighborhood residents and law enforcement operatives endure the shocking random.

injuries or death.

Many Americans blame the riots on outside agitators or young black men who represented the largest and most visible group of riders.

But in March 1968, the Kerner Commission turned those assumptions upside down, declaring white racism, not black anger turned the key that unlocked the urban American turmoil.

Reggie, I live, I was 14 years old in 1968.

I was very much aware of what was transpiring, what took place, why it took place, and listening to the pros and cons of why black people were such criminals.

Because at the time, that's exactly what was being talked about on the news, nightly news, that...

you know, these people are criminals and they need to be dealt with.

And so we need to lock them up.

And, and so that was what they were doing in the South Reggie, where you're originally from.

I'm born in the North.

The things that they were doing were legal segregation was legal in the South.

Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so you know, when we think about segregation laws, they go back to Supreme Court decision 1896 and Plessy v. Ferguson.

It basically made any type of segregation law constitutional across the country.

And I always explain these segregation laws as a legalized discrimination or they not only legalized discrimination against black people, but it mandated discrimination against black people.

If you didn't discriminate, then you were literally breaking the law.

If you allowed a black person to, you know, use a water fountain, you know, all these things that they weren't allowed to use, then you were breaking the law.

So it wasn't just, you know, the fact that these were discriminatory.

It was the fact that legally they were required.

So white people who didn't want to discriminate were literally required by law to discriminate against black people.

And that's the power of the Jim Crow segregation laws.

You know, Reggie, I think that there are...

enough people in this nation who understand that who even know that history and and so it's easy to say Well, that was a long time ago Yeah, well, you know Kind of you know what?

70 years ago.

That's not a long time ago Reggie, right?

I mean, it's really not a long time ago when you talk about how long the nation's been around but but the fact

that the history, that history right now they're trying to do away with is really what's at the root of a lot of these things.

And we're gonna drill down.

I'm so thankful to have you on for a show.

We're gonna cover a lot of different territory.

Our phone lines are open at 855-752-4842.

But more than anything else, we're gonna be informed and educated.

by, I think, one of the nationally known speakers on race and African American history in our nation, my good friend, Reddy Jackson.

855-752-4842 is the number we're going to chronologically kind of take some steps.

Again, a Motown Monday on the Earl Ingram Show.

All right, welcome back to a Motown Monday on The Earl Ingram Show.

As always, you can join us at 855-752-4842.

Text us at that same number.

My guest is the CEO of Reggie Jackson, Incorporated.

And as I said before, there's so many different accolades.

It would take me the rest of the show to tell you about them.

But Reggie, the Pew Research Center, August 10th, 2023.

View of the country's progress on racial.

About half of the U.S.

adults, 52% say that in the last 60 years, the country has made a great deal of fair or a fair amount of progress in ensuring equal rights for all people, regardless of race or ethnicity.

A third say the country has made some progress and 15% say the country hasn't made much progress or any progress at all.

About half of the adults, 52%, also say efforts to ensure equal rights for all people having gone far enough.

About a quarter, 27% say efforts have been about right, while 20% say they've gone too far.

Now, the country's progress on racial equality in the last 60 years, let me read this paragraph and then we'll get back to you, Reggie, by race and ethnicity.

White adults are the most likely to say the country has made a great deal or a fair amount of progress in ensuring racial equality 58% say this in turn black adults are the least likely to say they've been a lot of progress 27% about a third of black Americans 32% say the country hasn't made much progress or any progress at all Reggie the reason that we can't

get past this is We're looking through two different prisms and and so how do we get beyond and Get people to look at the exact same thing that there's there's not two truths on this Reggie.

There's only one truth

Yeah, absolutely, you know the truth is the truth and this is the thing that makes it so difficult early is that some people don't want to believe the truths of other people You know white America is never really wanting to acknowledge our voices in a way That our voices stand inequality with theirs and so the differences in that Paul from Pew Research is clearly To me a sign that you know people have different perspectives based on how their lives are being led

And so it's clear to me that a majority of black people clearly look at what white people have been told is progress and don't see it as progress.

For instance, if you look at something like home ownership, which is a big issue during the civil rights movement.

Blacks not being able to access home loans and become homeowners in the same way as whites.

The gap between Black and white homeownership today is as stark as it was in 1968 when the Federal Fair Housing Act was passed.

It's a nearly 30 point difference.

In fact, if you go back to 1968, the Black homeownership rate nationwide was about just over 41%.

And today it's

somewhere between 42 and 44 percent.

So that's not really much progress.

I mean, that's that's like a rounding error in many ways.

And that that's the lived experiences of black people.

And they know that.

And they expressed that in that poll, whereas white people just think that, you know, we passed the laws.

That's all that we needed.

But no, passing laws is not enough.

And, you know, when we talked about Jim Crow laws earlier, people understand is a lingering

effect of those.

For instance, Earl, when I was five years old, living in my hometown in Mississippi, they had two swimming pools.

They had a swimming pool for black kids and they had swimming pool for white kids.

And when I learned to swim at the age of five, I wasn't allowed to go to the white swimming pool and use it.

I mean, this is years after.

you know, the 1964 Civil Rights Act was supposed to provide people access to, you know, segregation-free spaces.

That wasn't the case in my hometown.

And even through the 1980s, I can remember going back and visiting my hometown, you know, there was still a separate swimming pool for black kids, and that swimming pool closed.

They didn't have access to the white swimming pool and kids had to go out to the creek outside of town to swim.

And kids literally drowned because there was nobody there, no lifeguards, anything of that nature.

So those lingering impacts of, you know, Jim Crow policies, not just the policies, but the practice of Jim Crow didn't just end because the law changed.

You can't legislate morality or all I say this to people all the time.

You can change laws and you can demand that people do certain things, but you can't.

necessarily forced him to be morally right.

Hey, I read you real quick.

This one actually a question.

How do you feel about the Lake Lanier situation?

Lake Lanier

situation.

I'm not

sure.

Well,

that's a situation where I'll go ahead, Cardi.

Well, yeah, kind of like it's a situation where they had a huge flourish in town.

Black people were like they're coming up there on up and coming.

A lot of businesses were going.

The people decided to drown the town out.

there's actual still like remnants of all like the communities and stuff underground there's a huge black community but decided like the white people came and they just they drowned it out they didn't want them to flourish in a sense

yeah well you know that's something that we saw in many places across the country uh after the civil war ended

Black people were so frustrated with their living conditions that they went and they formed all Black towns to protect themselves.

Not because they didn't like white people.

They wanted to literally protect themselves from violence, which was one of the most important elements of Jim Crow segregation was violence.

It flourished because of violence.

And so they wanted to get away.

And because they did this, white people wanted to destroy those new places they created.

You know, Reggie,

Certainly we're going to be moving forward with the conversation because there are people who will quickly say that was a long time ago.

One of the reasons why it's so good to have you on today is we're going to bring this up to today.

And we can point out clearly that there are still, we're not talking about vestiges, we're talking about things that are still happening today.

In this country that that hinder blacks and have not given blacks equal and fair opportunities in this nation They still exist today eight five five seven five two forty eight forty two It's a Motown Monday.

My guess is none other than the award-winning journalist writer You know educator my good friend Reggie Jackson and you on a Motown Monday on the Earl England show

Among us, love the most

due to the spring primary election on Tuesday.

Join us.

to a Motown Monday on the Earl Ingram shows always.

You can join us at 855-752-4842.

855-752-4842, text us at that same number.

My guest is the award-winning writer, journalist, speaker, and CEO of Reggie Jackson, Inc., who's joining me once again.

And Reggie, I'm so thankful and happy to have you on.

We're gonna do a deep dive, man.

And so our phone lines are open as always.

Fifty years after the Kerner Commission report, Reggie, the nation is still grappling with many of the same issues.

I said we were going to move beyond 1968.

This is 2018.

It points out that many of the same things that impact, let me do this, after intense.

Mid to late 1960s urban riding president Linda B Johnson commissioned the National Advisory Commission on civil rights disorder generally known as the current commission to study the causes of riots and to propose solutions their report issued in March 1968 argued that the riots were caused in large part by poor neighborhood conditions and limited labor market options facing black Americans as a consequence of racism and rampant discrimination

in housing and labor markets the current report and revamped the report 1968 and it said these excuse me in 2018 these factors underlie the development and maintenance of the northern black ghettos where residents endured extreme segregation limited housing choices concentrated poverty and poor schools reggie 2018

We talked about the segregation.

They talked about the segregated schools in 1968, Reggie.

We are more segregated now in the school systems than we were then.

Many of the neighborhoods that blacks live in today are impoverished and clearly food deserts and crime.

permeates those communities, very few commerce, very little commerce, if anything is taking place.

This is in the North, Reggie, not the South.

So even today, you know, all these years later, blacks are struggling, many struggling to feed their families in schools that, you know, cannot or are not educating children.

not solely because the schools don't have the capacity to, but because of all of the social ills that impact and affect these families on a daily basis.

Then you bring in Donald Trump and all of those people who say, you know, we've got to do away with affirmative action.

Reggie, they just killed affirmative action.

What, two years ago?

2023.

Why?

Because people said, well, it's been enough already.

You know, they've had enough.

Never mind for 300, 400 years.

Blacks would deny equal access and opportunities in this country.

You know, from the vaccine came into existence in 19.

Early

1970s,

early 1970s.

And so they wiped that away because some.

Angry whites said you're discriminating against us and There should be no discrimination.

It's it's it's wrong But those same people didn't open their mouths for 400 years of discrimination against blacks, but here it is in 1970s when you know affirmative actions wiped with diversity equity and inclusion where the misconception of many whites

is that black people were benefiting from diversity, equity, and inclusion, when if you look at the shared numbers, white women, number one, beneficiaries of diversity, equity, and inclusion, military veterans, Hispanics, and others, blacks, weighed down the list of people who benefited from diversity, equity, and inclusion, but this misconception of people who don't know.

And I think one of the reasons Reggie is so important to have you on is your historian.

You know, the real history, the stuff that they're being fed is not the history.

It's not the truth.

You say what?

Yeah, absolutely.

Earl, you know, one of the interesting things that I found is not only, you know, the white women benefit most from DE and our policies, but

also

as well, you know, people forget that.

Back in the late 60s, women were not as likely to work as they are nowadays.

A lot of women, particularly married women, were not out in the workforce.

That changed dramatically after affirmative action took place.

A lot of women went into the workforce, significantly larger number of white women in particular.

Most black women were working because of economic necessity.

White women were typically well taken care of because their husbands were making good wages and so they didn't have to work.

But many of those women decided to go into the workforce in the early 1970s as a result of affirmative action.

And we don't like to acknowledge that white people benefited tremendously from those policies.

Likewise with DE and I, if you see the changes in the workforce in many places around the country, you'll see that the most dramatic change has been the number of women.

that are in positions that they weren't in prior to these efforts for diversity, equity, and inclusion.

So that's been a big change that people need to be aware of.

And I think the people that are against these policies are people that are claiming, somehow claiming that these policies discriminate against white people.

I don't know how you can say it's discriminating against white people when white women are clearly the beneficiaries of it.

Are you saying it's...

you know, discriminatory against white men, it doesn't mean that people are, you know, getting jobs that they don't deserve, that they're unqualified for.

That's another argument people make.

DEI is not about putting unqualified people in positions.

What it's about clearly is that we need to open up doors of opportunity for everybody to have access to jobs that we didn't have before.

You know, Reggie, all people are asking is to be treated equitably.

in a nation that claims to be that.

Nobody's asking for special treatment.

People are asking to be treated equally.

And why is that such a foreign conversation, Reggie?

In a nation that claims to be God-fearing, that claims to be founded under the Judeo-Christian ethic.

And so if that bothers people so much

They don't, you know, want to address what come on.

Many people know is the truth.

You know, I'm looking at Tony.

I think I remember Mandela Barnes on the text talking about the quiet racism of Wisconsin.

People would say one thing to his face and treat him very differently behind his back.

I think he said he preferred the racism of the South because it was.

a clearer and easier to identify.

Reggie, you traveled the state of Wisconsin.

You've been in those places, you've been in those areas where there are no blacks, and you've had conversations with people in the state of Wisconsin about issues dealing with race.

What did you find out in your travels?

Yeah, absolutely, Earl.

I've traveled to well over 50 communities around the state of Wisconsin.

from the, you know, the north, south, east and west.

And I've heard from people in those communities who've invited me to come to those places multiple times that they are, you know, really ashamed of the conditions in the state as far as racism goes.

They're very open and honest about these things being problems, and they want people like me to come in and talk to them about how it got to be this way.

And so I provide historical context for how these things have gotten to be so normal in the state of Wisconsin.

You know, Reggie, that normal in the state of Wisconsin, but they still persist and exist in the North, in the South, everywhere.

One of the reasons why, Reggie, I look at young people,

in our communities and in a global technological society make no mistake about it.

Employment and quality employment is more difficult than it's ever been.

And so it's critically important that these barriers that existed and continue to exist today be pointed out.

And it shouldn't make people feel angry or mad.

It should be especially when when we claim to be the greatest nation on earth If you know, you don't have to feel bad about slavery Reggie if you weren't around during that time You didn't do it Maybe your father's and your father's didn't do it But to dismiss it Reggie and say, you know, well, you know, that was a long time ago

and not see vestiges of it that still exist today.

Reggie, are there vestiges of racism that still exist today in discriminatory practices that impact and affect the lives of people of color?

Absolutely.

We've never broken that.

you know, the pathway of racism being embedded into institutions in our country.

It's built into institutions and we see the same outcomes year after year, decade after decade.

And, you know, I hear from a lot of people, you know, that was a long time ago, Reggie.

You know, why were we still talking about stuff from so long ago, slavery and things of nature?

I said, well, the Constitution was written a long time ago, but people never get tired of talking about the Constitution.

They never get tired of talking about the founding fathers.

That was a long time ago.

time ago as well.

So, you know, the past helps us get to where we are today.

You know, we're all a product of our lived experiences.

And as a nation, America is a product of its lived experiences.

And America has never truly dealt with some of these problems.

And I'd like to just add one more piece of evidence for your audience, Earl.

I think it's critically important.

So, you know, when we talk about the

current commission report, what people don't realize is that commission hired a group of social scientists in 1967 to actually look at, you know, what was causing this civil unrest across the country.

And they issued a report that was pretty much hidden and rejected by the current commission report because it hit a little bit too hard.

And the title of that report was the harvest of American racism, the political meaning of violence in the summer of 1967.

that report came out before the report of the National Advisory Commission on Simple Disorders.

And it was a much more hard-hitting report.

These social scientists issued this report.

And, you know, the commission members were really not happy with it, with the details of what these people shared.

And so it's really important, I think, for people to read both reports.

I recommend the Harvest of American Racism, the Political Meaning of Violence in the summer of 1967, that people read

that along with the national uh reported national advisory commission on some of this order so the kerner commission uh issued you know two reports one which was hidden for 50 years this the harvest of american racism was hidden from the public for 50 years literally girl and that is a very hard hitting report and gets to the heart of how racism is so embedded in you know

uh, so many things within American society and causes this harm, uh, to the black community.

Eight, but, but, but as Dr. King said, it doesn't only hurt the person who's being discriminated against.

It also hurts the person who's doing the discriminating eight, five, five, seven, five, two, 48, 42, uh, is the number.

It is a Motown Monday on the Earl Ingham show.

My guests, Mr. Reggie Jackson and you.

keep telling me don't hang around it's been a

As always, you can join us at 855-752-4842.

855-752-4842.

You can text us at that same number, my guest is Mr. Reggie Jackson, the award-winning writer, journalist, speaker, and so many other things I, you know, can't take the time out to say.

But I just want to, we're gonna have this conversation going into the next hour, so.

Let's get to the phone lines.

Let's go to Brendan from New Jersey.

Good morning to you, Brendan.

You say what?

Yeah, I'd like to just kind of call out the like you were saying me and the, you know, the first of all, the kids in school that were learning about slavery, they didn't have a problem with it.

It was their parents.

I mean, it's just the whole MAGA movement is just a bunch of pissed off white people.

As far as I'm concerned, yeah, they did get a small part of the African American community in there.

There were some Latinos that voted for them, but they're all licking their wounds now.

And the other thing you brought up was the Christian Judea thing.

Their new uniform in the press room is hanging across in front of whatever they're wearing.

uh like they're using you know christ to some kind of social shield for their lives in their bs this idiot is driving around doing laps at the Daytona 500 in limousine while the people in kentucky and west virginia are floating uh in river water okay let's see how quick chimpy the clown can get his shit together to excuse my friends uh to to uh give these people help

You know, he complained about the FEMA and he complained about all this stuff.

Well, now we need FEMA and let's see how quickly he can get those people in Kentucky.

Hey, Brendan, thank you very much for the call.

You know, you know, Donald Trump and MAGA and what they represent certainly is, you know, to me that they certainly represent some of those things that occurred.

Many years ago and and they stand up and they and they push and say well whites are being discriminated against You know, but it's it's it's big in the mag of people man Let's go to Tom from LA.

Good morning to your time.

You say what?

Good morning, Earl.

Good morning, Reggie and party you're often you're killing it.

Um, I want to give a perspective from just a white guy from Wisconsin that grew up in the northwestern part of Wisconsin

And that is when I was young, and I think it's the same way today.

People in those parts don't think that they're racist, and they don't understand that racism is intertwined into the fabric of our society, and it's interwoven into the fabric of our society.

But what they think is because they put the Green Bay Packer football players who are mostly black,

because they put them on a higher pedestal in some ways, because we know in Wisconsin that the Packers are one of the greatest things, that for some reason they can go into denial about the fact that they're racist, or they can go into denial about the fact that there is any racism.

And I just think that's something, maybe Reggie can rip down a little bit or something, but I know when I live in Green Bay,

people that were white were kind of bowing to the knees of some of the black men that were actually football players.

And I just think there's a part of that that really needs to be uncovered because not everybody in Milwaukee, and they can forget about Milwaukee because it's in the southern part of the state, but everybody in Milwaukee is not a Green Bay Packer football player.

Um, you know, I have friends that have that were black and that would, you know, when they go out to maybe, um, cat around, they would, you know, say that they were a Green Bay player to a girl, white girl or something like that, but, uh, or to a black girl.

Um, but.

You know, that was that's part of this that I think there's this denial.

Hey, Tom.

Hey,

Tom.

This

is bigger than northern Wisconsin is bigger than the state of Wisconsin because it exists whether it's in Wisconsin, Michigan.

You know, any part of this nation, it's not just rural.

It's in the northern parts as well.

Racism is not predicated on whether or not it's somebody who lives in the rural area.

It's bigger than that.

And it's more inclusive than that.

Reggie, is it safe to say that?

Yeah, absolutely.

Racism does not have any geographical boundaries.

And as I've traveled to Green Bay myself to do speaking engagements and travel to places like Warsaw, I agree with the caller.

because what people there seem to think they know about Black people is based on the fact that, well, you know, I like those Black guys that play for the Packers, so I can't be racist.

I like, you know, Sterling Sharp or Devanti Adams or, you know, pick any Packer, you know, legend throughout the years.

But what people don't understand in Wisconsin, Earl, is that 61% of Black people in the state live in the city of Milwaukee.

but very sparsely spread throughout the rest of the state.

Hold that thought.

855-752-4842.

Reggie Jackson, the historian, African historian, is on the line.

855-752-