Transcript
Donald Chi on Fluoride, Oral Health & Public Policy (Hour 1)
Nite Lite with Pete Schwaba and Greg Bach · Tue Apr 14, 2026
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From Washington to Hollywood and right back to Wisconsin.
It's Night Light with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.
Connecting the dots on the stories shaping our world with smart takes, sharp humor, and plenty of personality.
You know, I really expected more professional behavior from you.
It's news and culture without the noise.
Yeah, come on!
Here's Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.
Dude!
Thanks, Tom.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to Nightlight.
I am Pete Schwabba, joined here by my co-host, Mr. Greg Bach, who is in... Now, you're in Racine tonight, right, Greg, at Radio Park?
Yes, I'm usually in Racine.
99.989% of the time.
Occasionally, you like to pop over to Phoenix and do the show from there.
Yes, exactly.
Do you
remember where I am?
You are in Christmas City, USA, Marinette, Wisconsin.
I knew it!
And then there's the guy in Madison, his name.
Gosh, what is his name?
Ooh, that
was close.
The
part is right.
I spend so much energy remembering Christmas City, USA that I pushed all the information.
You got nothing left for Dom.
Nothing.
Oh,
Yeah,
Dom Lee.
We are the Otterhay Triangle, and we are bringing you Nightlight tonight, and it is our pleasure to do so.
Thank you for being here, folks.
We have a great Tuesday night here in store for you, whether you're driving home or you're already home and, you know, fixing yourself in old fashion or whatever it is.
Spend a couple hours with us and let us inform and hopefully bring a smile to people's faces.
That's what we try to do here, right, Greg?
I absolutely agree.
And also, if you want to fix yourself a new-fashioned...
Go do that.
I don't know what that means.
It's whatever you mean and whatever you want.
Enjoy.
Listen, I think there could be a market for that.
You just put a little twist on it and all of a sudden we're like, you know, we're not tyrants, we're moguls.
Tyrants?
Well, there's a fine line between a mogul and a tyrant.
So we would want to, you know, walk it gingerly and be careful.
But yeah, absolutely.
I can feel the money rolling in right now, especially after I just paid a bunch of money to the government.
So please, more money.
Thank you.
Dude, I would love the opportunity to be a tyrant if I could.
I'd like to think I wouldn't be, but if I
can
make enough money to tell all my friends to beat it and get some new friends, that is living kid.
I'm sorry, but I just think Pete, you'd be a terrible tyrant.
You're too nice.
Too good a guy.
Come on.
You'd say like, get off my property.
Oh, stick around.
It's fine.
Don't worry about it.
Do you need soda?
Do you have something to drink?
I got stuff in the fridge.
It's fine.
Come on in.
Come on in.
Come on
in.
That is exactly what I'm like.
I'm glad you
said that Greg.
You know me so
well.
So you paid your taxes today, I guess is what you're saying.
Yeah, we did our taxes this past weekend.
We actually got a little bit of refund from the state.
We got to pay to the federal.
And it's, you know, it's, this is actually better than most years.
Most years it washes out.
Like we'll either make a little bit of money.
And I'm, when I say a little, I mean like 14 bucks and we have to pay to the fed this year.
We have to pay.
We got a little bit more, which is nice.
It goes right into the savings, but they're done.
So yay.
That's relief.
Yeah, I love paying my taxes when other people don't have to.
You know, I said this recently on the show.
Yeah, that sucks.
But there were years where I, you know, if I had a good year and I had to pay more, it hurt.
But I still felt somewhat patriotic.
I thought this is all going to stuff we need to make our country function.
And I didn't really have a problem with that.
As you really shouldn't.
I mean, to me, there's
I don't know.
I mean, I don't want to overpay.
I'm not
saying
that.
Well, no, I don't want to overpay either.
But there is a fantastic quote from Oliver Wendell Holmes, former Supreme Court justice.
He said, taxes are the is the price you pay for living in a civilized society.
Exactly.
And it's not it's not an application for overtaxing.
It's not advocating, you know,
Tax loopholes.
It's just simply saying you want to live here and you want to live a quality life Well, it comes with a certain amount of it comes with a price on the other side of that conversation I would say then that our taxes being paid creates a contract between us and our country and they should do more for us than say raise our gas prices and bomb other countries We didn't ask him
but that's
a whole other conversation because it's Tuesday on nightlight with Pete Schwab and Greg Bach
And just, I just want to put a button on that.
The other thing is those t-shirts where people walk around and say taxation is theft.
I'm like, well, I can't afford my own police force or
my
own roads.
So
what is the alternative
there?
I don't understand.
There's never a safe alternative to privatize everything.
That's also a conversation I can get into.
Like that would absolutely ruin the fun of nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.
If I could just say
another downer thing.
Cats are the
worst.
I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
We do have a great show tonight, folks.
We've got two great guests.
I'm very excited, too, because we're talking, I love that we talk about, we talk about a lot of showbiz and some current events, but we have our first guest, Dr. Donald Shee.
He is a PhD professor of oral health sciences at the University of Washington.
He's going to talk to us about the importance of fluoride.
because there has been some pushback and people say it's bad for you.
It's not funded.
They don't want to, well, we'll get into all of it with Dr. Chi.
And I don't like going to the dentist necessarily, but I'm going to love this conversation.
Yeah.
And in the second hour, we're talking to Dr. Susan Kearns, who is the executive director of Milwaukee Film, discussing this week's
beginning of the Milwaukee Film Festival starts on Thursday, which brings me to another point in the second hour, day two of our Win Your Way into the Milwaukee Film Festival text-to-win contest, where you have an opportunity to win an all-access pass to this year's festival.
And if you want to know what a great deal it is, stick around in the second hour because Dr. Susan Kearns talks about
what you get when you get an all access pass to the Milwaukee Film Festival.
So make sure you stick around for that.
That's coming up in the second hour.
And before we get to anything else really quick, we had Dan Schaefer on the show last night.
He is the founder of the Reconpopulation Era.
He is an editor here at Civic Media.
He was going to be having an event this evening at
Anadine coffee in Walker's Point, Milwaukee to celebrate 414 day.
Today is April of 14th.
It was going to be a big event.
They have postponed it due to inclement weather that's coming through that area.
So it will not be happening tonight, but they will announce a rescheduled date soon, which want everyone to be safe.
Again, if you are affected by weather right now, there is right now, I know where I'm living.
There is a tornado watch until later this evening.
So just make sure you're safe.
Make sure you're taking care of yourself and
Look are stay tuned for the postponement or the rescheduled date for this recombobulation area event at anodyne coffee
You can celebrate Milwaukee any day.
Yeah,
exactly
to be safe.
Absolutely.
Yeah, we are going to so we've got two doctors on tonight, which is very exciting I was a solid C students.
So I'll bring that to the conversation
Um, and Dom, uh, how are you doing tonight, Dom?
I'm doing pretty good.
I, again, you
show.
my grandpa used to say, I think there's going to be weather.
That's what you'd say when you thought there was going to be bad weather.
Can we make another announcement too right now?
I think we should.
Can I get some timpani for this one, Dom?
Because Thursday is another edition of the Nightlight Movie Club, and we are about to announce our movie.
You can watch it and take part in the conversation.
But here is the movie for this Thursday's edition of the Movie Club.
Give me the timpani's.
Oh, tension.
There's tension.
When Harry met Sally.
is
our
movie for this week's movie club.
Directed by Mr. Rob Reiner, RIP.
We'll be talking about that movie, talking about history, some trivia, giving our thoughts.
So if you haven't watched it, my goodness, but if you haven't watched it, if you've watched it before, watch it again, keep up with us, get a part of the conversation, and we'd love to have you.
But that will be the film choice of the Nightlight Movie Club for this week, when Harry met Sally this Thursday in the second hour or so.
A great choice.
And you got Billy Crystal, Meg Ryan, and I'll say this too, Greg, Rob Reiner's mom has a very unique cameo in the film.
So we can talk about that on Thursday as well.
But yeah, be part of the fun.
Folks, join our movie club.
We had a great discussion the last couple of weeks.
We did Sandlot and The Gentleman.
And this week, as Greg mentioned, Harry Met Sally, those are great movies.
And that'll be fun Thursday night in the second hour.
But I think we should probably get to our nightlight question tonight.
What do you say, fellows?
I agree.
Let's talk about the question.
Okay, question.
Question.
Question.
Pregunta.
Question.
Question.
Okay, I have a question.
Questions.
This question.
Domanda.
Question.
Question.
Questions.
What is your favorite game show?
There you go.
There's some classics.
There's some newer ones on cable.
But what game show do you love?
Share your favorite game show with us tonight, folks.
8-5-5-7-5-2-4-8-4-2.
eight, five, five, seven, five civic and let us know what you think.
Um, I'm, I'm actually excited to share my favorite game show because I think it's like, I think a lot of people might say jeopardy, but, um, there's so many good ones.
Yeah.
There's lots of great ones.
There's one in my head that I'm, I don't, I don't hope that other, I'll say it regardless.
It's like to this day, when I see it on TV, I still watch it, even old reruns.
So there's actually two, but.
I will pick between my kids and find my favorite game show.
Awesome.
Dom, you got to start thinking too, buddy.
You know, game shows, game shows aren't like as big a thing now as they were, but you got to be part of this.
So we'll get to your texts throughout the show.
I
like how you prepped Dom.
We will ask you a question later.
Be prepared.
But I, I don't think game show, they're not as prevalent.
Like they're on cable.
It seems like more, there's still some on syndication, a wheel of fortune and Jeopardy, obviously, but.
Well, let's talk about more in the second hour.
Cause I have, I've have some gripes about game shows as well, but we'll get in that a little bit later.
All right.
Fair enough.
We've got a few things going on in the news though.
I think we should probably get to fellas.
Yes, sir.
This is interesting because we've been talking about this a lot lately about how gas prices are going up.
Yes Well tonight or today I should say on NBC news.
I read that oil prices Might start falling, but that is not a good thing, right?
And that confused me.
Why not Pete?
Well, here's what's gonna happen You know the International Energy Agency said that Tuesday demand destruction Could unfold I didn't I'd never heard that
that term before.
But basically, these would be shortages stemming from the closure of the Strait of Hormuz and overseas businesses and households will start curbing investment and consumption.
I didn't know that.
So base, I mean, that reminds me sort of like back in the days of the pandemic when, you know, the gas was like.
88 cents a gallon because nobody was driving.
No one
was, I
mean, you were using the necessary gas that you needed in your home, but you weren't overusing outside of the house because we weren't going anywhere.
And I will say, I mean, the gas prices around my neighborhood did go down 10 cents, which, you know, you can say, well, 10 cents, but that's the difference between a $60 gallon, a $60 fill up and maybe 58 or 57.
And nowadays we all know this, every dollar counts.
So,
But it's not good though, this thing here happening because when gas prices go down as well, that's also not a great thing either.
So this, I mean, it's still, I don't know, Pete, like every day I get up and I see
differing stories about this topic Iran, the straight-o-hormuz, the oil, the tankers, who's being blocked?
Who's being, who's not?
What's the president saying?
What's he saying really?
And what will he actually do?
So like to me, this story is not, does not make me feel better.
Yeah.
And it's not, I guess we don't need to sound the alarm yet in America.
It says the according to NBC anyway, it's likely to affect global economic growth has not affected the US comedy.
economy, economy, but it could threaten to destabilize an already fragile labor market.
I will say this, I have a Toyota Land Cruiser that's kind of old.
I love it.
I'll probably never get rid of it.
We are not driving that thing at all right now because it's got like a 20 gallon tank and even 10 cents coming down 10 cents.
That saves us two bucks.
Yeah.
If we, you know, and I feel that once I think since the war started, because we don't drive it that much, but no, it's a big deal.
And, you know, you'd think people would be excited.
I was not familiar with the term demand destruction though.
So there you go.
Neither by neither by guess we'll see, we'll see more as the weeks go on.
But yeah, this, you know,
Absolutely.
On a lighter note, folks, share with us your favorite game show.
That is our question of the night here at Nightlight.
When we come back, a certain someone was booed at a certain big event.
We're going to tell you all about that because it's one of our new stories and you'll hear about that next after this very short break.
Don't go anywhere.
This is Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bob.
You're listening to Civic Media.
Stay up to date on the latest news and information for your local community and Wisconsin by signing up for our free email newsletter.
Visit civicmedia.us slash email to get started.
Hey, welcome back.
I hope you're striking a pose, folks, wherever you are, and I hope it's one of relaxation because we are here to help you relax.
on this edition of Nightlight.
I'm Pete Schwabba, sitting upstate from Greg Bach.
Dom Lee is in Madison.
Pay attention to the weather, folks.
If you are in Madison, especially, you said you're still dealing with a watch, Greg and Racine, but Dom, we've got our eye on you because our senior producer, Tucker, had to go into shelter, and he's not that far away from you, so.
Yeah, we got information.
It says the National Weather Service is issued a tornado watch in effect until 10 p.m.
Right now I'm just just looked it up still says tornado watch as of right now where I am currently at Which is downtown downtown Madison, so but I will I will stay updated with that as much as possible
Stay
where you are.
Yeah
on the news and follow along
This is Nightlight.
As I mentioned, we've got a great guest coming up in just a few minutes, folks.
Dr. Donald Chi, DDS.
He is a PhD and professor of oral health sciences at the University of Washington.
We are going to talk to him about supposed bans on fluoride.
I didn't know that was a big deal, Greg, but apparently people are trying to ban fluoride.
We'll talk to
Dr.
Chi about that.
And then another doctor, Susan Kearns, from Milwaukee Film.
She's the executive director.
Well, join us in the second hour to talk about the Milwaukee Film Festival, which kicks off on Thursday.
Uh, our, our question of the night, what is your favorite game show?
So text us and be part of the show.
There are no right or wrong answers, folks.
Only your answers.
So we've got, uh, we've got a couple of news stories we got to get to here.
Greg,
what do
you say?
Let's do it.
Go down.
Well, it seems like some of
Donald Trump's biggest fans are starting to turn on him too.
Apparently this past weekend he went to a UFC match while there was warring going on.
Things like that and people not to be able to afford food and things like that He went to Miami for the UFC then took in some golf the next day But at this event there was talk and there was being reported all over the place that it was a mixed reaction People were booing and cheering him and this is not the first time this has happened.
It has happened at football games It has happened at baseball games people are not and the fact that this is being being being you know done at a UFC fight in Miami
That's a big deal.
We were talking about this yesterday that people, you know, that picture he posted on Sunday of him as, you know, quote, a Red Cross doctor.
His fervent, his fervent Christian fans not happy about that at all.
And we're seeing, we're seeing the breakdown here at various places that he's not popular and not just the polls saying it, but the people are saying it too.
It's so crazy because to go back to the the image of him as Jesus where he said he claims he thought he was a doctor Yeah, he sounds more and more like Michael Scott.
He's either never been to the doctor or He's completely Michael scotting as well.
No, no, no I was a doctor and because doctors help people and and I help people it sounded like he was Michael Steve Carell's character on the office when he tries to talk his way out of this stuff But the booing that is deep mag like I
I used to be a huge UFC fan, but it's
the fans that are
so crazy.
I'll still watch highlights occasionally.
I do think there's some artistry in martial arts, but it's the fans with the affliction shirts.
When they're turning on Trump, he's got major problems, and I'm not saying they all are.
But I don't think, you know, for them to come out this strongly and boo, and I didn't think the booing was huge, but Dana White got booed, the founder of the UFC.
And I don't think he's a good guy either.
I think he hit his wife once that was caught on camera.
I don't
know
why these people are celebrated.
There are no
consequences, Pete.
Pardon?
There are no consequences.
That's why.
Well, exactly and it's it's just if if but if you're losing that base that is a male dominated Audience at the UFC and it's it's probably not a good thing for Trump
Well, and I said, you know, I said this on the old shows that you know back in 2024 the brand of Trump was cool It was in fashion kids were wearing the hat they wanted to be cool a podcasters loved that guy like all the re and
the past now year and a half, people are starting to see the cracks are showing.
We've, a lot of folks have seen it, but the folks who voted for him are now seeing it affect their wallets, affect their gas tanks, affect the groceries and they're tired of it.
And they, you know, they got sold the bill of goods because the guy came in and said, I'm going to do all these things.
And for some reason they believed him.
Okay.
But there's now proof.
Out there that shows that this guy is not what he says he is and he is a man who in my opinion I Don't think he should be president mainly just because of what he says and it's specifically to this This picture they put out there.
He's like I was a doctor with the Red Cross That's not something a normal person says you say that when you're losing it.
So
yeah, yeah, who would have thought an epist does not govern well, all right It's time to get to our third story
Greg, this is all you buddy.
It has been announced.
The rock and roll hall of fame class of 2026 is going to be is been released as of last night on American Idol and that group includes Shade, which by the way was the band, not just the woman.
That's the name of the group Shade.
Luther Vandross.
Very cool.
Yeah.
Wu-Tang Clan.
Love it.
Billy Idol.
I'm surprised he wasn't in there sooner.
Oasis.
That might be a first ballot vote right there.
This is one I've never seen before.
Joy Division and New Order will go in on the same nomination, both bands, because Joy Division eventually became New Order because their lead singer died.
Iron Maiden, which is amazing.
Oh, yeah.
And then finally, and I'm sorry for Dom's mom on this one, but Phil Collins inducted it as a solo artist, his second entrance into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Well, I'm happy for you and
me to
Dom's mom, but I don't.
I don't like disagree.
Billy Idol, he had a couple classic.
Is there anyone here you could argue with, Greg?
You're a music fan.
I love New Order.
Love Luther Vandross.
Love Chardet.
And I like Oasis.
I think it's about the impact and all of these artists had major impact on their, you can make an argument for almost all of these against, but when it comes down to what the people have spoken, and this is what they want.
Now, really quick, Mariah Carey denied for the third time.
Yeah, and Melissa
Etheridge in excess the black crows.
That's crazy.
We can maybe continue this a little bit in the second hour.
It's a great conversation and good stuff.
All right.
This is Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.
We are coming right back after the news with Dr. Donald Chi.
Stay safe out there, folks.
Watch your TV, follow the news.
Tornadoes are in and around the area.
So take the caution.
We're coming right back.
Welcome back to Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bogg here on the Civic Media Network.
We always love to hear your comments.
You can drop them in the text line, 855-752-4842-855-75CIVIC.
Leave a comment on the live stream.
We stream on Facebook, YouTube and the platform.
We still call Twitter.
Coming up in the second hour, we're welcoming back to the show Dr. Susan Kearns, who is in charge of the Milwaukee Film Festival beginning this Thursday.
And you will get your chance to win an all-access pass to the Milwaukee Film Festival with our Win Your Way into the Milwaukee Film Festival text-to-ing contest.
That's all in the second hour coming up.
And then, of course, we wrap everything up with the nightcap.
But now, let us welcome our first guest of the evening.
He is a PhD professor of oral health sciences at the University of Washington, Donald C. D. D. S. Welcome to the show this evening.
How are you today?
I'm doing great, great to be here.
Welcome.
We are so happy to have you on the program this evening.
There is, I mean, honestly, there's so much to talk about because when we, you know, when we were discussing you being on the show, one of the major things we wanted to talk about was fluoride in our water and the resistance to fluoride specifically from the secretary of health, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
But in one of the articles that you were, you were quoted in, in CBS News,
You know, fluoride is a major conversation that we will have, but the state of dental care in this country has taken a huge nosedive specifically since COVID.
Can you talk more about that?
Absolutely.
So I practice in clinic a day a week here in Seattle in a clinic that treats mostly low income families and children.
I'm a pediatric dentist.
And one of the things that we saw before the pandemic is that there was a pretty large unmet need.
Lots of kids coming in with cavities, needing fillings, sometimes root canals and stainless steel crowns.
Sometimes teeth would need to be extracted or removed if the cavities were big enough.
And I think what happened with COVID is that families were stressed, many of them were at home, kids were at home all day, had a lot of screen time, snacking behaviors, I think just skyrocketed and went through the roof where sugar intake was just at an all time high.
And at the same time, I think hygiene behaviors just
got lost.
So a lot of families were just trying to make it through the day.
And so I think, you know, tooth brushing didn't happen in the way that it needed to.
So I think what happened as a result of the COVID pandemic, and we see this in clinic is that kids from low income families who used to come in with pretty substantial, you know, cavities are coming in with just, I mean,
really, really just large cavities, lots of unmet need.
During that first two, two and a half years of the pandemic, a lot of dental clinics were intermittently closed.
And so I think a lot of families just weren't thinking about dental care on top of all of this.
And I'd say that we're still catching up from the consequences of COVID and clinic where I'll still see families and clinic as of recently that have said, well, yeah, we're still
kind of recovering from COVID and we're just kind of getting reacquainted with the dental care system.
It's great to have you here, Dr. Chi.
And I just want to say I've flossed twice before you got here just to really
get away with the interview.
No, okay, he is a show-off and
suck off.
All right, cool.
Just a little bootlicking before I ask my question.
So I read in an article, too, that you said you deal with up to six families a day that don't want fluoride treatment.
You're a man of science dealing with what you hear on the outside or you have people like RFK Jr.
saying that fluoride is bad or whatever.
What do you tell those families and how do you try to get through to them to convince them that they need fluoride if you even do that or feel comfortable doing that?
Absolutely.
Pete, you hit on something at the end of your question there about convincing parents.
And I think that that was the approach I used to take.
When I first
saw fluoride hesitancy in clinic as a resident.
So this is a fresh out of dental school.
I was a newly minted dentist learning how to become a pediatric dentist.
When I saw families for the first time who would come to me, you know, they have their
kids' teeth fixed and cleaned when families would say no to fluoride.
That's immediately where I went to.
I immediately went into cell mode of how is it that I could convince families to accept the fluoride.
And I think that the thing that I learned through that approach is that oftentimes I would get a lot of resistance from families.
And they don't always have to say resistance related words for you to feel like there's resistance.
And sometimes these interactions would just get really, just really heated and everyone would end up feeling bad at the end of the appointment.
And so what I ended up doing was that I wanted to study this.
There had to be a better way than me trying to convince families to accept fluoride.
I was studying for a PhD at the same time.
all the readings of all the studies.
I tried to incorporate that into practice where I would say, hey, look, there was this huge study and talk to parents about these scientific studies.
And for the most part, parents didn't want to hear that.
They did not want to hear about the studies.
They didn't want to hear about me showing off my scientific knowledge.
And what I realized in hindsight
is that I think what families want is that they want a provider who listens.
And so rather than me go directly into cell mode, what my research has shown me is that I need to step back a little bit, Dennis need to step back a little bit and try to understand where parents are coming from.
Why is it that a family is concerned about fluoride?
And I think that's the only way a provider
is going to get at the root of what's causing that concern.
And I think from that point on, then you can make a decision as to what type of conversation you're gonna have with the parents.
Some parents don't wanna talk about fluoride at all.
Like they've made their decision, they don't want it for their kids, and that's the end of the story period.
And I have to, as a provider, respect that.
I will obviously provide my professional advice as to whether their child should be getting the fluoride that I'm recommending.
But some parents don't want to talk about it.
Other parents do want to talk about it.
And I think the reason why a parent is hesitant about fluoride is really, I think, a good starting point for a conversation that may take place over the course of multiple visits.
So maybe not just during the visit today,
Maybe this characterization has to happen every six months for the next year or year and a half for us to get to a point where we can provide the care that's going to lead to the best outcomes for their kids.
I just want to say that must make your job, that must add an element to your job that you didn't anticipate when you went to dental school.
Having to sell people on science and research, that seems like it would be exhausting.
You know, it's interesting.
I think, you know, I was trained under the old model, you know, it's kind of, you know, we call it paternalism in healthcare, where you basically, you know, you tell the patient what to do.
They largely go in and do it.
There's not a lot of resistance.
And then you move on to the next patient.
And boy, that's a really convenient, easy way of delivering health information.
And it's not like that these days.
I think that their, you know, patients want more dialogue.
They want, you know, to make sure
that their providers are engaging in shared decision-making, meaning that it's a dialogue.
It's not a one-way conversation.
It's a two-way conversation.
I can only imagine the frustration though.
I mean, I'm all for to a dialogue and I am very much a person.
If a doctor tells me to do something, I consider it.
I'm like, this is a doctor and I usually take the advice, but nowadays with social media, everyone thinks they're a doctor or at least thinks that they're their favorite influencer is somewhat a doctor because they come across as confident with a nice lighting system and million dollar videos.
Before we get further into that, can we take a step back in time and talk about our relationship with fluoride in our water in this country?
Something they had been doing for a long time.
And then, you know, I didn't even know it was there until someone like tried to approach me with a conspiracy theory.
I'm like, I'm, what?
What are you talking about?
Like, so for those who don't know, like what's a brief history of fluoride in our water in this country, at least that, you know, really kind of set people on the path of saying, you know, getting into rabbit holes of alternate facts, if you will.
Yeah, absolutely.
So fluoride was first noticed in the early 1900s in Colorado.
And so there were certain parts of Colorado where individuals had a stained enamel, or enamel is the outermost surface of teeth.
And so dentists were noticing that there were pockets of geographic areas in Colorado where patients were coming in with this staining.
And what they realized was that while the staining was, it didn't
look good, you know, and so aesthetically it didn't look good.
These patients, these same patients with this brown staining on their teeth seem to be resistant.
to getting cavities.
And so even though the staining was there, they didn't seem to develop cavities as much as individuals who didn't have this staining.
So there were a lot of lab studies that were then done.
And subsequently, what was discovered was that these areas, there were certain areas in Colorado where the water was naturally fluoridated at a very pretty high level to lead to this brown staining.
And what researchers found was that it was fluoride.
And so subsequently, lots of lab studies to try to determine, OK, how can we maybe take advantage or harness the powers, the preventive powers of fluoride, but minimize the staining?
And that's really where some of the first community-based trials came into play of trying to figure out what that
that optimal level of fluoride is.
And so for most communities, what that means to get to that optimal level, that means you have to add a very careful amount of fluoride to the water to make sure you don't add too much fluoride.
But you want to also make sure you're adding enough to get that preventive effect or the preventive benefit to prevent cavities.
And that's really how water fluoridation started in this country and almost
From the day that water fluoridation started in the country, there have been groups in the US that have called water fluoridation an attempt at mind control, lots of conspiracy theories.
This is the Soviets trying to take over the masses, lots of different theories on the actual or the real reason we fluoridate our water.
And really, this was simply a way to make sure we could prevent tooth decay.
Well, you were just part of a monster outfit, trying to steal our children's souls.
Yeah, I don't know.
Oh gosh, I don't want to laugh, but it's kind of funny too, but not because of where we are in politics, but go ahead,
Pete.
Our guest is Dr. Donald G. DDS.
He is a professor of oral health sciences at the University of Washington.
So we've got a congressman trying to introduce bands on fluoride
dentistry and dental insurance has been cut by the big beautiful bill.
I'm trying to follow the money here.
How does that benefit?
Or where does the money—is it just a question of cutting the money out of a budget?
It doesn't seem like people can get rich or politicians can get rich cutting fluoride.
Like, I don't understand the motivation here, I guess.
Yeah, you know, and that's really, that's a great question, Pete.
And I don't know either.
You know, it's really hard for me to understand because something like water fluoridation is beneficial, it's safe, it's effective when done, you know, under supervision, which is the way water is fluoridated in the US.
Water hygiene specialists have to have, you know, licensing and credentials and constant continual training to be, you know, adding fluoride.
of the water.
What I think it is, is that I think a lot of politicians in the US are maybe taking advantage of some of the anxieties that exist in the population.
And so part of this, it kind of goes back.
to to our earlier comment about okay why is it that individuals are coming in and why are they concerned about fluoride and I think some of it has to do with empowerment you know that the internet has democratized knowledge and so anyone can go online and look up information on anything and and and I think that with that knowledge then you know comes some you know comes
the sense of empowerment that they have gained some knowledge.
And so then they come into the dentist's office or the physician's office with maybe some made up minds about what they want to do.
And in this case, it's fluoride.
Well, we're going to keep this conversation going with Dr. Donald Chi DDS.
He's a PhD professor of oral health sciences at the University of Washington right here on Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.
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So stay tuned in the second hour and we're wrapping everything up with the nightcap.
But we're talking with Dr. Donald Chees, a dentist and PhD professor of oral health sciences at the University of Washington.
He is our guest this evening.
And I want to say the following.
I understand that there is, you know, there's no replacing the brushing, the flossing and all the good everyday things you're supposed to be doing.
But with the help that fluoride in water has, if that were to somehow be taken away,
That is going to affect a lot of folks who don't have health care.
Now, again, fluoride in water does not replace those other things, but it's something.
And what would you think would happen if those folks who don't have access to health insurance or to dentistry and lose fluoride, I mean, there's going to be a definite shift for those who are, you know, they are vulnerable to those things because of their lack of access to health care.
What do you think the problem there would be if we all of a sudden just said, fluoride's gone?
Yeah, absolutely.
And we have studies to show what happens when communities pull fluoride out of the water is that cavity rates go up.
I mean, you know, it takes maybe about nine to 12 months to see those cavity rates go up.
But yeah, cavities will increase.
And actually it's lower income.
more socioeconomically vulnerable individuals and communities and families that actually will bear the brunt of those cavity increases.
And so, if you're wealthy or if you're middle class, you have a lot of protective things in life.
You have health insurance that dental offices will take.
You tend to eat healthier.
You tend to have other sources of fluoride like fluoridated toothpaste that you're using twice a day at home.
But that's not the case with our lower income
populations and so cavity rates will increase and the poor will Get more cavities than than others and and that then creates further strain on the dental care system because that means more cavities You know that means more visits to the dentist and if you can't get to the dentist that's gonna start affecting hospital emergency rooms So we know that we know that when you can't get into the dentist
for routine care or for emergency care, a lot of individuals end up going to the emergency room, going to hospital emergency rooms, where they can't actually fix the problem.
So they may give you some painkillers and then tell you to go to the dentist, which then doesn't really solve the problem.
Yeah,
yeah.
Dr. Joe Rogan says, I'm just kidding.
How often, fluoride aside, how often should people see the dentist if they do practice good oral hygiene?
And how does good oral hygiene lead to better gut health?
Because I've been reading a lot about that lately too.
Yeah, I think in terms of frequency of dental visits, most people go to the dentist every six months.
Some dentists may say, well, come back in 12 months or 18 months.
Some individuals have to come back more often.
So we have a lot of really high-risk kids, kids who are more prone to getting cavities that we want to see back every three or four months.
So it's all based on risk.
If you're at higher risk for tooth decay, dentists tend to want to see you more often.
And if you're at lower risk,
then you can go a little bit longer between visits.
In terms of the links between oral health and gut health, I think the jury is still out.
I think maybe primarily because the studies are still being done now.
Our group is actually working on a project funded by NIH looking at the links between what happens in the mouth and what happens in the lungs in individual cystic fibrosis.
And we're actually seeing links
between that.
So if you have cavities, if you have gingivitis, that you may be more likely to have more severe lung disease as an individual with cystic fibrosis, which again, starts to get at this link between what's happening in the mouth and what's happening in other parts of the body.
I promise I'll make this connect.
I have a lot of tattoos.
And one thing in the tattoo world we always say is when you go to get a tattoo, make sure you connect with your tattoo artist.
If you're not feeling it, you're not liking it, you don't feel comfortable.
Don't go.
You have every right to leave.
There are a lot of folks out there, Dr. Chi, who have not gone to the dentist in a long time.
And I will admit, I'm one of those people.
I try to practice good oral hygiene, but I don't get the dentist as much as I should.
And what happens, I know for a lot of my friends is as we don't go, we get more and more afraid of what will happen and also how we may be treated.
And a friend of mine went to a dentist after many years of neglect and they said simply out loud,
We're here to make you feel comfortable and happy and we will never judge you.
What do you say to folks who say to you, I haven't gone in a long time.
I'm very scared.
Dental fears and anxieties are common.
I would say, you know, lots of people are afraid of going to the dentist.
You know, you may have had a negative experience going to the dentist as a child.
You may have gone to the dentist as an adult and not been treated nicely, you know, in terms of pain control.
So you may have had like a root canal and maybe you felt it and that can trigger dental anxiety and fear.
So, you know, first thing I'd say is dental fear and anxieties are absolutely normal.
The other thing I would say, going off of what you just said, Greg, is shop around.
If you're not happy with your dentist, find a dentist that you're comfortable and that you trust.
This is really super important.
The mouth is a really intimate part of the body.
Dental visits can be really uncomfortable.
Even routine visits that are just cleanings and x-rays can be really uncomfortable.
And you want to make sure that you trust the provider that's going to be spending some minutes in a very private, intimate part of your body.
And I appreciate that.
That's something in 2026 I told myself I would do.
I'd find a new dentist and I want to go somewhere I feel safe and welcome and not judge for not making it there.
So Dr. Donald Chi, thank you so much for being here.
We really appreciate your time this evening.
Thanks for inviting me.
Dr. Donald Chi is a DDS PhD Professor of Oral Health Sciences at the University of Washington.
He has been our guest tonight.
If you missed any part of the conversation, go to civicmedia.us slash shows, look for nightlight.
You can download the entire conversation and listen anywhere, any time coming up in just a little bit.
Dr. Susan Kearns from the Milwaukee Film Festival, your keyword to possibly win a all access pass to the film fest.
Plus we're talking about the question of the night.
Watch your favorite game show all right here on Night Light with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach here on the Civic Media Network.
I can talk.
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