Anti-Tech Activist August Lamm on how to Live Without an IPhone (Hour 1)

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You know, I really expected more professional behavior from you.

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Yeah, I'm on.

Here's Pete Schwabba.

Dude.

And Greg Bach.

Dude.

Welcome to Night Light, everybody.

We are live on this Wednesday night.

Wednesday evening, Greg.

It's an evening.

I mean, it's Night Light, but it's still evening.

It's I feel like it's still light out.

So I almost feel like we're at the point Well, we're almost a daylight savings time this weekend.

Do not give me your opinions on it.

I do not care But we're it's it well, you know, people are always like we shouldn't have just let it go just let go It's coming this Sunday spring ahead you'll quote lose an hour asleep You'll be fine.

But you know, that means that five o'clock will be the afternoon

Correct.

It's it's more like afternoon tea with yeah, each one on Greg.

But we'll make it work either way.

It's great.

You're for

it.

Yeah, I'm you and I are here regardless, right?

Yes.

So it's done.

I'm here.

I'm ready to go.

I'm Lee, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you.

Yes,

don't

lose our Dom is our resident Italian expert.

He's learned all about his people from Jimmy Johns.

We established that last night.

Let

that

sink in.

See what I just did there.

I called

two callbacks.

That's

very

good.

And folks, you may be sitting there going, wait a minute, I don't understand what they're talking about.

We got you covered.

So if you go to civicmedia.us slash shows, look for Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.

You can download yesterday's episode and listen to it whenever, wherever you want.

Whatever tickles your fancy.

We have a great show tonight.

I am Pete Schwabba.

That is Greg Bach and Dom Lee is working the board.

And we've got two outstanding guests tonight.

We've got August Lamb, a writer.

who is a anti-tech activist.

And I have to tell you, Greg, on paper, I already love what she does.

This is such a great thing.

At heart, I want to be an anti-tech activist.

I am pretty much married to tech.

But I think mostly I would like to just find a happy medium, put my phone

down

for long stretches.

But I really admire what she's done in her writing.

She's a really good writer.

She

also

does visuals.

She's just really a fascinating guest tonight.

Yeah.

And then in the second hour, we're going to be speaking to, I believe it's a friend of yours, right?

Well, she's been a guest several times on the show

before.

Yeah, Susan Kerns, executive director of Milwaukee Film.

Nice.

That'll be a lot of fun.

There's a lot going on there.

Are you familiar with Milwaukee Film, Greg?

Like, do you get up and go to movies at the Oriental and see what all the programs they have?

I've gone to the Milwaukee Film Festival a few times.

I do love it.

I have a friend of mine who had a showing at the Film Festival a couple of years ago.

So I am not as adept at it as I would like, but every time I go to the Milwaukee Film Festival, I thoroughly enjoy myself.

They are a well-oiled machine.

They've got

two

great theaters.

They've got a great board, great staff, and they have outstanding programs.

And Susan is always very fun and informative when she comes on the show.

So she'll join us in hour number two at 620, as Greg mentioned, and we'll be off to the races.

You know what I've been doing, Greg?

I'm trying to settle into a new routine here since we've got the show.

It's done at seven now instead of eight like it used to be.

So now I find myself, I have more time at night.

So

I'm

catching up on the Oscar movies.

I've got three to go.

Are you into that?

Do you watch those movies and try to stay up to date on things like that?

I try to.

This weekend, I am going to be watching at least two of them.

Just because I want to watch them and and and I would I'm gonna probably watch a little bit of the Oscars But I you know depending on when I go to bed I'm still honestly I'm getting used to being able to go to bed later before before this I was always going to bed at like 8 30 now I'm like I should stay up until 9 9 30 and Wow, yeah,

I haven't been to bed that early probably since I was nine

That is impressive.

You know what?

It's weird because I'm a night guy, but I'm also a morning guy.

I love the morning, but every job I've ever had just kind of lends itself to being a bit of a night owl.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, I can be a night owl if I really want to, but I just, I enjoy going to bed earlier, but now I go to bed a little too early.

So, uh, it's about finding again that happy medium of where, where you're at.

And, and this weekend, you know,

I'll probably watch some of the Oscars.

I'm going to watch some of the movies, but I don't generally try to watch all of them, but I always check and see who the winners are.

Yeah.

What about Dom?

I saw you shaking your head.

Are you?

Not big.

I shook my head more so.

I'm the same as Greg.

I went to sleep around 8.30 and now as of recent, much, much later.

Wow.

But in terms of the Oscars, not really.

I'm not super.

I don't really stay up to watch it.

I don't.

I mean, Conan's hosting this year.

So I'm going to watch.

I mean, that's a great host.

Yeah.

He is, he is designed for the Oscar, specifically the Oscars.

I don't think Conan would be as funny hosting the Grammys or the Golden Globes.

I think the Oscars are, are fake and dumb enough that Conan's humor perfectly works where he makes fun of it perfectly more than anyone else could.

I agree with you.

I thought Ricky Gervais when he hosts was a little bit like, Hey, man, why'd you even take this gig?

Like movies are amazing.

Just shut up and tell your jokes.

Whereas Conan and I like Ricky Gervais.

I think he's hilarious.

But

like Conan, it does just enough with

still

kind of saying, Hey, movies are great.

We're all here

to have a

good time.

I don't

take^?

any of the award shows too seriously, but I do like to watch them.

You know, there you go.

There you go.

All right.

So we've established that.

That'll be fine.

I think it's time.

Greg, if you don't mind, we need to get to our nightlight question of the night.

Let's talk about the question.

OK,

question.

Question.

Question.

Question.

OK, I^?

have a question.

Questions.

This question.

Domanda.^?

Question.^?

Question.

OK,^?

if you could ask God a question.

Yeah.

What would it be and I stole this from wise brother media?

I saw it on some some thing I read and I rephrased it because that was a little vague But if you could ask God a question, what would it be?

Let us know we'll be having fun with this all night 8 5 5 7 5 2 4 8 4 2 8 5 5 7 5 civic you can also text us on the app or if you're watching the radio on YouTube Facebook

or what Greg likes to call Twitter still, and I'm with you there, buddy.

Drop us a stream comment.

It's always more fun when you guys participate.

I just really love the...

The last night was what was your favorite cold cut tonight?

What would you ask God?

That's the beauty of the question of the night pal.

That's what we do here, right?

I mean, we have a little fun with it and tomorrow will be what is your favorite periodic table?

Chemical so stay in your toes argon Iran I Have a couple answers for that.

I'm gonna save them for right now, but

don't

give us a teaser.

Did you think of that at all that question?

I didn't, I didn't, but, well, thanks for doing your homework.

It would be a cold cut, maybe it would be a cold cut.

Dear God, what is^?

the greatest cold cut of all time?

Love, Dominic's, P.S., my apologies for the accent.

Apologies, God does a fermento

of any place.^?

Dearest Lord, why is it called a pimento loaf?^?

You can^?

mix and match questions.

That's the beauty of the question of the night, I think.

So be part of the show, folks.

Let us know.

But, you know, what do you say, Greg?

Should we get to our three big things?

Let's get to the three big things.

The first big story.

I like it.

So Pete, big news out of Milwaukee Common Council.

And the

story I

had, the story I just had is gone now.

Hold on, it's here, I think it's right here.

Yes, according to the Common Council, the Milwaukee police are banning officers from masking their identities amid ICE concerns.

I think this is a very good thing.

I don't know about both of you, but I think it's important that those who enforce the law are not masks and I should be able to know who is approaching me.

Simple,

right?

Absolutely this is so that that masking thing is so wrong on every level with the federal agents and ice and I just I applaud Milwaukee for this because you know Remember when like cops used to walk the beat and get to know their neighbors and yeah, it's like they're part of the community They're here to serve and protect.

This is not you know wearing the masks and here's what I also don't get with ice you got masks on and then you got all this armor and then you got dockers or blue jeans like

You know, it's just none of it makes sense.

So I love that Milwaukee did this.

They also want ICE agents not to wear masks when they're

in

Milwaukee.

I don't know if they have any success enforcing that, but I love this.

And I think, you know, police officers in cities like this are part of the community.

And I like that we can see their faces and know their identities.

Yeah, it's said here in the story, this is coming out of

The Wisconsin examiner Andrew Kinard has the has the byline on this one.

It said, referring to what you spoke to Pete, last month officials announced a package of local ordinance proposals that aim to prepare the city for possible surgeon in ICE operations.

The package included a requirement for all ICE agents to be unmasked when interacting with the public.

and I'm trying to see here that

came

out that's that that was that was put out last month and it looks like it says that yeah they were they were proposed they can be challenged in court but yeah I mean it just it just makes sense in my opinion I don't know like I don't know why like the whole the whole thing was like well they can get doxxed well anyone could get doxxed but I mean if they're just doing their job they should have nothing to worry about

yeah that's the whole thing I'm like how even if you are regardless of which side of the aisle you were on

mm-hmm

I don't understand how you can be in favor of masks.

And if you're doing your job to the best of your abilities and you're not mistreating people and you're following the law, you should have absolutely nothing to worry about.

I mean, ICE agents were around previously too.

And it doesn't make any sense to me.

But I like this move by Milwaukee kind of being proactive or preemptive, saying,

you

know, you're probably coming.

This is what we expect.

And

it'll just be this

Greg.

You

ever see a standoff between local police and ICE with the different theories there regarding the masks or how people are treated?

I mean, I haven't seen the police say anything about the ICE officers.

And as far as I know, police officers are never, I mean, I don't know about police wearing masks other than maybe say SWAT teams, but I've never seen confrontations between the two.

Also, they can pass all the ordinances they want in Milwaukee.

That doesn't mean that the ICE agents will have to listen because if they have

If they have DHS behind them, they can be like, do whatever you want.

You know, I mean, and I don't know then to do the police get to arrest them.

Do the police say, no, pull your mask down there as an ordinance and we are here.

We are here.

The law and order Milwaukee, you will abide.

We'll see.

I love that.

I it

would

be interesting to see that.

And I can't see something like that.

Like if that if it came to that, and we're ICE office,

ICE

agents and police officers, I don't think it would escalate to the point of violence or anything.

But

it would be an interesting little standoff, you know,

Yeah.

Before we, we have Annie from Watertown on the phone.

She has some thoughts on staying up late to watch the Oscars.

Annie, good evening.

How are you tonight?

Um, fine.

I mean, two different things.

I stayed up to watch the Oscars when I was at my uncle's in Italy and I had to stay up, I mean, to 3am, which was like eight o'clock here to watch the Oscars.

And the lady that I bought gloves from the next day in Florence, she had stayed up too.

It was funny to talk.

You know, some people around the world do stay up, but I also that bring lost an hour to daylight savings time over there.

And then I flew home and I lost another hour due to daylight savings time.

And I just wonder when I'll ever get that hour back.

You won't, Annie.

Move on.

Seek the future.

The future is ahead of you, Annie.

Not in the past.

Thank you

so much for calling me.

Travel backwards.

I

think I need to get those hours back.

That's

awesome.

I love Annie from water

unless Annie, unless you invent time travel, then call me.

I'd love to invest.

Do you, uh, Greg, you know, David tell the comedian.

Yeah, of course.

One of my favorite jokes of his is when he went to Australia to do stand-up, he was the day ahead when he called his apartment to get his messages.

He answered the phone.

Dave, what the

heck?

All right.

Well, when we come back after the break, we're going to go through our next big stories, two more to go.

And then we'll

be

talking to August Lamb, who is an anti-tech advocate or activist here on the show.

So don't go anywhere.

You're listening to...

Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach here on the Civic Media Network.

Stay

tuned, stay close.

Welcome back.

This is Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.

You've got the Civic Media radio network.

Dom Lee working the board.

We have August Lamb, a writer who is an anti-tech activist coming up after the news.

That's going to be fun.

I'm very envious of her positions and very curious to talk with her.

That's coming up just after news, sports and weather.

Right now, Greg and I are discussing three pretty important

stories.

You

don't want to miss these.

Sorry.

I didn't

mean to laugh at the big important stories.

I didn't mean this like a sarcastic laugh.

I'm saying I'm trying to sell

it like,^?

I mean, this next story comes to us from Texas.

So it kind of affects us, but a big win last night for James Tellerico.

Indeed.

Can we get the sounder?

The second big story.

There it is.

It's not official until it's not official until there we

go.

He didn't officially win until.

Well, he won the primary.

He won the Texas primary for Senate and he beat Jasmine Crockett in the primary votes amongst Democrats, winning by over, uh, almost 200,000 votes.

According to this here, one by 52.5% beating out.

Sitting Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett the the Republicans not doing as great and having a lower turnout for their Republican primary on top of that It's not a clear winner because in Texas it's going to have a runoff because the top two people did not secure more than 50% of the vote So they will be going to a runoff to see who will be winning that and it's between John Cornyn and Ken Paxton and then we will find out who James Tallarico will be taking on in the fall

It'll be interesting.

I mean

I have a question, Greg, for you.

I follow politics pretty well.

But I, you know, the fact that when you have like hardcore Christians, they typically align right.

James Talarico is a he's I think a man of the cloth and he speaks a lot of New Testament stuff and teachings of Jesus.

Where has this guy been in the Democratic Party for the last 20 or 30 years?

Well, I mean, he's better.

I mean, that's the thing is very

specifically, but you

know, I'm saying

like, uh, where are the Democrats religious side coming out?

You know,

they've been there this whole time.

They just don't get as much attention.

That's the thing.

I mean, honestly, when it comes down to it, there's plenty.

I know plenty of Democrats who are Christian and, you know, some, but I think that.

When I watch, he's on a lot of videos on my phone.

I scroll through and I see him a great deal of time.

I enjoy him, but it's because they're making him the story.

They're making him the, I mean, he is not a unique creature in Texas.

There are plenty of Democrats who are Christians.

It's just he is already a state rep.

He has got a good message.

doesn't get into big shouting matches.

He simply addresses the conversation.

He does it in a very mindful, very respectful tone.

And apparently that's weird enough that people want to hear from him.

Like he's not the norm and that's the weird part.

That is a great point.

Like it's come back around.

Usually it's the loudest, the squeaky wheel, so

to

speak.

And if you're not angry enough, you don't get the attention from the media or social media or whatever.

This guy is measured.

And he speaks his mind and he takes his time.

He reminds me a little bit of Obama.

He gathers his thoughts before he talks and he's thoughtful.

And it'll be interesting if he ends up running against Paxton because Paxton kind of is the opposite.

He's more of a fire and brimstone.

Yeah.

He's the, he's the attorney general of, of Texas right now.

And John Cornyn is a sitting senator who I believe is retiring.

Oh no, nice.

He's running for Senate.

He was, what is John Cornyn?

He is.

Keep talking Pete.

Uh, yeah, James.

No, he, uh, here's what's interesting.

Tell Rico, when it comes to fundraising raised, has raised 20 million bucks since, since September and Jasmine Crockett, only 3.7.

Um, so there was a huge discrepancy.

So does that translate to just a 2.2 and a half point win?

I don't know.

I mean, I think they're both popular within the democratic party.

So

he.

Wait.

Well, so John Cornyn is the current he's running for reelection.

That's what I thought, but it just didn't sound right when I said it.

Um, James, Talarico beat Jasmine Crockett by six points.

Oh, six points.

Okay.

By six points.

And, you know, will he have enough, depending on who wins the runoff?

I don't know.

It'll be interesting to see.

I think, I mean,

Texas has been Democrats in Texas have been raring for a victory for a long time now and then once he is he is their new beta aurora What beta aurora was in the in the 2010s.

This is what James Tallarico is now.

So we'll see what happens in fall.

Yeah, should be interesting All right moving on to our Dom, I'll let you handle this.

There we go.

The third big story That never gets old I love that

I think the story is that sound bite, frankly.

Trump is mega, mega is Trump, Greg.

What do you think of that?

I guess, you know, it's a perfect way.

Is that what people are like?

Hey, this is the year I'm dating myself.

Is that what that's like?

Is that what that is?

Like, is he like, he's like, I'm taking time for me.

I am Maga Maga is me, baby.

Oh, let's do this.

Let's invade a country.

Oh, let's paint everything in gold.

I love myself.

I'm taking a good long swim in Lake Me.

He's getting a lot of pushback from, you know, right wing pundits like Megan Kelly, Tucker Carlson.

I will say this, Tucker Carlson.

And Matt^?

Walsh.

And Matt Walsh.

Tucker Carlson has always just kind of been Tucker Carlson.

Like every once in a while, he goes against the grain.

Megan Kelly is on fire lately, man.

She is just like the gloves are off and she is at it.

I don't know

what

is going on

there.

She needs to make money.

It's the, the measured, the measured version of her that was on Fox.

And I'm sorry to say that, but on Fox, she was measured.

If you compare her now to her then and who she is now, she has to compete with these fire brands online to create attention, to get clicks, engagement, to make money.

I mean, do I think she believes this stuff?

I don't think so.

I don't think a lot of them do, but she, I mean, she is pushing back on the president and that's not out of her, that's not out of

pocket for her, but in this new version of Megan Kelly, I'm surprised.

Well said.

Thank you.

All

right.

You speak good.

We are

going to break up for the news.

And when we come back, a writer August lamb will be here.

She is an anti tech activist.

Can't wait.

This is Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach on nightlight on the civic media network.

Welcome

back.

This is Night Light with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.

You've got the Civic Media Radio Network.

Dom, that's one of those songs.

I don't really know what it means.

It's called Philadelphia Freedom.

It's kind

of

a toe-tapper.

It sounds patriotic.

I have no idea what it means,

though.

I think it's written for Billie Jean King.

Oh, seriously?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

That's why I

love doing this show.

I learn something every day.

That's fantastic.

All right.

We are going to shift our attention to our first guest of the night.

She is a writer and an anti-tech activist.

She has been published everywhere and is incredibly prolific.

And now you're going to hear her voice.

This is exciting.

It is our pleasure to welcome to Nightlight August Lam.

Hi, August.

Hi.

Nice to meet you.

You too.

I was almost going to make an anti-joke there, but I'm going to let that play out.

This is so fun.

Can you define, before we get too far into this, what is an anti-tech activist as you see it?

Well, I'm against tech or technology in two senses, against big tech and the amount of power and money and manipulation that they wield.

And I'm also against technology in our own lives and the way it affects our relationships and takes over our everyday moments and our thoughts and our free time and our creativity.

Of course, those two things, the macro and the micro, they're connected.

But I actually try to focus more on the micro, even though obviously I hate these technology companies that want to control us.

But I think that we have more power than we think.

in our own lives to live without these devices.

I think there's a part of every single person who wants to do this.

I mean, I shouldn't say every single person.

I'm not going to speak for every human, but I think there are a lot of people out there

who think about this on a fairly regular basis and say, I would love to just maybe not go anti-tech, but just say, I'd love to get rid of my smartphone, or I'd just love to not be on social media as much.

What brought you to this point?

And when you talk about it, how much convincing do you have to do for people?

Well, it's really interesting because you're right that so many people say they want to do this, and that's the major reaction that I get.

I will answer your question, but it is interesting that for every hundred people that say they want to get rid of a smartphone, if just one person did it, we'd be in a completely different world.

But they won't.

But the thing that got me to actually do it was I was working as an Instagram influencer, so I hadn't had

any job, any other way to earn money outside of social media.

I was doing art influencing, so working with art supply companies and selling drawings and teaching art and making videos and doing giveaways and stuff like that.

And then when I decided that I couldn't handle it anymore, I couldn't handle having my whole life, my whole social network and my career being online, I had to start over.

in a way that was so dramatic and so difficult that I would hope that it would make the process seem easier for the average person who's just using social media for fun.

Yeah.

That's a great answer.

I remember being in the doctor's office.

I had a doctor years ago that I couldn't get reception in.

So I had to sit there for 30 minutes, completely unplugged, and it was glorious.

I'm really

sorry.

Well, and I think this goes to what Greg said, a lot of people like this in theory.

But it's hard.

What you talk about in your article, idleness is a lost art.

What do we lack when idleness goes away or when we don't have time on our hands?

Well, just so you know, if I were in a doctor's office for 30 minutes without anything to do, I would also be

stressed and anxious, but the thing is when you get rid of your smartphone, then you start bringing along a book or something like that.

So, you know, something like that.

You're losing so much.

Basically, we're just losing our knowledge of ourselves, like our connection to what we want in our lives.

Like, if you think about just a small example of it, like, let's say you're going from work to dinner with friends.

And you're taking the train there and then you're taking the train home if I'm not train ride You're looking at your phone and listening to music and stuff like that You're not ever having those moments of okay.

How did my work day go?

What do I want to ask my friend tonight?

What am I feeling?

How long do I want to do there?

What do I want to do when I get home?

What's important for me today?

Like what am I grateful for any of those things so then you can just go through your life in a blur and you can stay in

bad situations, bad jobs and bad relationships and you're just you're just dulling and silencing your thoughts so that they don't ever rise to the surface in any in any really dramatic way and I find that without a smartphone it's like I have to deal with my difficulties head on because there's no escape I can't just pick something up and run away from what I'm feeling.

Well, I think a lot, and whether it's smartphone, I mean, it's not just smartphone, it's tech too.

I was watching a video on YouTube, on tech, on social media, but I was watching it, and I say that not to be facetious towards you, August.

I'm saying for me, I am someone who would love to disconnect a little bit more, and then as soon as I think about my day, I think of how connected I am, but I watched a video talking about why people watch shows over and over again, because it allows them to kind of do exactly what you're saying.

It allows them to control their own narrative, but it also allows

them to not really think about the important things maybe that are going on.

It allows them to kind of mute those moments in their life that demand attention.

And there's both a good and bad side to doing that.

But, you know, if not just the smartphone, like what do you say towards the tech of like smart TVs now that are listening to us all the time or these devices in our kitchens that, you know, we can just say, Hey, put some

Toilet paper in the grocery bag and I'll buy it later like what do you say beyond the smartphone for tech for people and how they can maybe turn off a little bit

Yeah, I that's that's that I try not to think about on a daily That really freaks me out when I when I think about how embedded this stuff is And I think that a lot of people have grown so reliant on this on a daily basis

I think what's funny about all these devices, these convenience tools, is that they might save us time, but actually having the internet and having smart devices is taking more time away.

So it's like, okay, so I'm going to waste five hours of my day on social media so that I need...

something to order my groceries automatically because I can't go grocery shopping because I waste that time on my device.

It's such a strange thing and the people say like well it must take you so long needing to go to the library to like print things out and use the computer and I'm like well yeah but I'm not wasting any time so that's fine.

So yeah I'm finding that over time like since I got rid of my smart phone on my computer

Now that we're coming to things like robotic household assistance, it's like, am I even the right person to be talking about these things or about AI or about new tools on social media, new features?

Because I don't even know anymore.

Yeah.

Well, and I think there's something to be said about that too I think you put you put in your article in the New York Times when someone says what do you think about the tiktok band and you say what tiktok band?

I'm sure there's a lot of folks out there who be like What do you mean?

What do you mean?

Like and they find that to almost be offensive that you don't know Exactly what's happening in the world at this exact moment because we get news every every everything's breaking everything's important But you know when you put your device down it you to control what's important because you control what you're taking in

Well, what's really important is your only life that you have to live and I don't know why for every news story that happens that people have no control over you know I mean some things it is important to do your civic duty but a lot of things it's just it's just kind of content and if you think about each New York Times news blur and then Millions of people are reading that and so that's million minutes that are going into this thing when it's like that's

That's our lives.

There's no reason for us to know that.

And I'm fine with people using the news because they're entertained by it or if they're really interested in politics or whatever.

But I do take issue with that attitude of, oh, you're not doing your duty and participating in society by knowing everything that's happening every second.

I think that's something that people tell themselves to justify their titillation.

Our guest is August Lam.

She is a writer and you should read her stuff.

Go to augustlam.substack.com.

She has outstanding articles, fiction, nonfiction.

We're talking about anti-tech activism here with her tonight.

Earlier August, you mentioned that you thought the, you said these tech companies control us.

I've had this conversation with a couple of family members before who say the same thing.

And my question is, in your opinion, was that their goal from the outset or was it just to make really cool stuff and make money?

Or did we kind of morph into that where now all of a sudden we are controlled and they're using it to their advantage?

What are your thoughts on that?

Well, that's a great question.

I think it's difficult for me to really demonize the tech companies, although of course what they're doing now is so harmful to us because I think it all comes from really natural human impulses to just improve things and make things and explore things and scientists just

want to discover the next thing and to push and go further.

And that's a beautiful thing for us.

We invented the wheel.

That's really great that someone said, let's move things with wheels.

But then that same impulse is now thousands of years later is now making us make an infinite scroll or something like that or the next

short form content that's going to be more addictive the next algorithm.

It's the same impulse and I personally think that the people in the positions who are actually creating this technology are on the ground creating it and coming up with these ideas with super smart people.

They're just focused on the task at hand.

I think they're just thinking how do we make this algorithm better?

And then it's so satisfying when you do and you see the numbers go up and you're like, wow, we did that.

We came up with the technology to do that.

The problem is then

you zoom out and it's made the world the worst place to listen.

So I don't really blame the individuals.

I do think that now I know a lot of people who work in tech.

I've met a lot of people actually through anti-tech activism because a lot of those people will come to the events.

Strangely, I've never figured out why it's not because they're disgruntled and wanting out.

They're just kind of curious.

I don't know if they're doing research, but anyway, I meet a lot of these people and they just

they do seem to have their values in the wrong place, just in their daily lives, you know, wanting to make everything hyper efficient and impersonal, so you don't have to interact with someone, you don't have to leave the house, you don't have to put any effort in, just make everything seamless and efficient.

And I sometimes just wonder if they realize that their end goal is to get rid of everything that makes life

meaningful, you know, every activity, every bit of effort, every relationship, because that's what we're trying to do with these tools.

But I don't think there's really a nefarious intention beyond just making money, maybe.

I would venture like a lot of those folks probably think what you just described is the ideal thing of being able to be, because I would say that in their brains being

connected in their fashion is being connected overall.

And again, yeah, they might not see it as an evil, but I think they just see the world as different as what we may dislike about tech they absolutely love.

And you can't, it's trying to find that middle ground.

Probably part of the reason why they go see you speak because they're just interested in how you see the world versus how they see the world every single day of their life.

Maybe there was more open mind than that.

But I do think it's interesting that my, I mean, if you follow my dogma or whatever, it's like, you know, just live in your real life and accept the inconveniences and the imperfections of it.

But if you follow theirs, ultimately what it leads to is we're all just comatose strapped to a bed, hooked up to machines and everything is just, our food's delivered into our bodies, you know, entertainment's delivered straight into our brains.

We don't have to move.

Like we have AI girlfriends and friends and everything.

We just don't have to do it.

Love it.

That's kind of what it's leaving for.

It's like we never ever have to do anything or feel anything.

Yeah.

When we come back, we're going to keep speaking to August lamb about this topic.

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Right now, we are continuing our conversation with

August lamb, who is a writer and anti tech activist about her history about putting down the smartphone, picking up a dumb phone and getting tech out of her life and what kind of improvements that has made.

And that's what I want to talk about really quick August is that from when you put those devices down or you limited your use them because I believe in the article it says you do utilize tech for posting.

That's it.

And you're done.

But did you see a

Progress or like a betterment for your for your own mental health like just throughout your day like after like one day versus two days versus a week Did you just feel like it was there was a better outlook for you in the world?

Yeah, definitely.

I felt that immediately There there was that initial period of oh my gosh I have to come up with thoughts to having my head so I don't go crazy We're not we're not used to having to

to populate our brain with thoughts, because we just have things to look at and do on our phones.

So that was difficult.

For example, going to the gym, I would be at the gym and everybody else is listening to headphones on their phones.

And I just had to think the whole time.

And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to stop.

I'm not going to exercise anymore.

Exactly.

But no, I immediately felt better.

But the funny thing is that

I thought I had gotten all the benefits after a month or two of figuring out different things to do and different ways to think.

But then now, even years later, there will be new revelations where I'm like, wow, this part of me just reawakened after this long dormancy, this part of me or this way of thinking or this ability.

We all have our limits.

I often thought in the beginning like, okay, I've gotten a lot of my brain back, but I'm always going to be bored, you know, going to whatever a classical concert or something.

And then years in, I could just be fascinated by the music and, and love it and be enraptured.

And, and I couldn't believe that anybody else was bored because I was on such a low frequency.

And maybe that sounds awful.

Like I've deprived myself so much that really anything will

Intrigued me, but but now I just walk around and they look at things and that this world is endlessly fascinating to me And I don't I don't need any entertainment.

So I I still feel like I'm improving over time

That's great.

I I was reading earlier in one of your articles about the two-factor I Authentic authentication and I that frustrates the living-day lights.

There are times I see that I'm like just hack me.

I don't want this much security I'm not really hiding anything that but it is such a headache

So I was totally with you when I read that, but then I thought, what are people's reactions?

When you tell them what you do, when you say you're an anti-tech advocate or activist or you do these things, are they on your side right away?

Are they like, I wish I could do that, like Greg and I are?

Can people find a happy medium?

Have we figured out how addictive cell phones are just yet?

I mean, the most common reaction I get is just immediate recognition, understanding and jealousy.

So that was not the case a few years ago when I first got rid of my smartphone and I told people about having a brick phone or I'd show people my Nokia phone and they would be like, I don't understand why do you have that?

It doesn't do anything.

That doesn't make sense.

But somehow now I think it's a combination of the discourse that

that people have absorbed but also just we were reaching a critical point of frustration and the technology has moved so quickly and we don't feel in control anymore so people just understand it immediately and they don't really need much explanation.

The only people who don't understand are people who aren't addicted to their phones like older people you know a lot of older people are addicted to Facebook but some older people are just like why would we be against this phone it's fine you can just use it to take pictures once in a while like

They don't understand.

Well, it's funny to me is that, you know, this is a generalization of some older folks.

And so come at me if you'd like, but knowing older folks who would say, I don't want one of those smartphones.

I don't need one of those smartphones.

I just, this is fine.

And then years later, like they cannot be without them.

Cause as you said, they look at their Facebook, they take pictures, they do all these things and they become, I think there's also this, this really bad, uh, you stereotype that, you know, people of a certain age of like maybe like 50 and younger are

the only ones who are addicted to their technology when really it's anyone can be.

And you see a lot of younger people nowadays who are saying, you know what, I can have a flip phone.

I'm fine.

I don't need a, I don't need a smartphone.

I don't need MP3s.

I got CDs or vinyl, but it's not about what your age is.

It's just how, how deep you go into it.

And do you have, do you see that happening?

Like, do you see older folks who maybe push back a little bit more than younger folks are like, yeah, totally get rid of that cell phone.

I don't care.

Whereas older folks be like, I cannot be without it.

Yeah, and in my experience the I have a lot of people writing to my PO box and telling you their experience not having a smartphone and The the older people who write are people who never got a smartphone and were never interested in they held out and now now their time has come Now everyone's on their side and realizing they were right all along But but I don't hear about older people radically making a change in their lives and I think that's just because unfortunately it's easier

for younger people, whether because of their place in society or because of, you know, brain chemistry, I don't know, but to just rebel in that way and say, I'm not going to do this.

I refuse.

And I think for older people, it's just like that they are sort of taking what they're told to do.

And for years, like, I still see posters now outside the library saying, like,

the class to teach older people to use tech and like, how do you use a smartphone and how do you use the internet?

And it's like, why?

Why are we doing this?

Why do why do they need to know?

Well, August, August, thank you so much for being here tonight.

We appreciate you being here and sharing sharing your expertise and your thoughts on this.

August Lam is a writer and anti tech activist.

We will put her website on our show notes so you can check out her writings as well as her art.

August, thank you so much for being here.

Have a wonderful night.

Thank you.

Thank you very much when we come back.

We're going to be talking about the question of the day and speaking to Milwaukee Films Executive Director Susan Kearns here on Nightlight with Pete Schwabba and Greg Bach.

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