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Live across Wisconsin on the Civic Media Radio Network, you are listening to Mornings with Pat Crichtlow.
Sitting in for Pat Crichtlow this week, Matt Rothchild and Angela Lang.
Good morning and thanks, Craig.
That's Craig Bach, who's on with Gene Metonair, Metonair on air from 9 to 11 after this show.
But I'm delighted to be sitting in here with Angela Lang, talking with you.
Greg, and with our listeners, listeners, you can join the conversation by calling 855-752-4842 or texting 855-75CIVIC.
You know the 855.
75CIVIC, that's what you remember, 752-4842.
Angela, I wanted to talk about some state politics here for a little bit, if you don't mind.
First of all, I saw this.
a story about some racist comments that attract me.
This was Rufus King High School in Milwaukee.
One of the best public schools in the Milwaukee area was at Waterford High School and they had to, there was such ugliness against the athletes from Rufus King that the coach
of Rufus King said, we're not going to, after the 200 meter run, we're going to leave.
And they, and they left early.
And it reminded me this kind of thing has happened before all over Wisconsin.
I remember, you know, it happened in Jamesville.
If a Beloit high school team would play in Jamesville, just disgusting things, you know, Madison hasn't been immune to it either.
No one's really immune to it.
But in the year 2025, it's just so disgusting.
You mentioned it in a note you sent out to the members of Block and the readers of your newsletter.
What's your reaction?
You know, I'll say I hate Facebook, but I logged on to Facebook and I saw people share statuses from parents or grandparents that talked about the incident that said, hey,
this is what happened when I picked up my grandkid from the track meet and so one I was glad to see that there were articles now being written and like it got the attention because I don't think it was something that should be swept under the rug um but I think my my first thing and we were talking about it as a team a lot of us were like it's a shame
that these students had to forfeit the match because of racism, right?
Like they didn't get a chance to compete.
These could be seniors, right?
It's that time where people are looking and scouting, right?
Like people are making plans.
You know, track meets this time of year can have like real implications.
And it's my understanding from what I've seen and some of the reporting that I've seen is that the King coaches, Rufus King coaches went to try and get the opposing team to, you know,
do something about their students and their behavior.
And when they didn't, that was when they said, then we're not going to subject our students to that.
And I think on one hand, I absolutely see that.
But on the other, I'm very disappointed that the students, the impact of it, and they're not able to compete.
I know they said that there were going to be some follow-ups.
And I think that there is an investigation now.
But definitely thinking about those students and what they experience.
And I think one of the things that
we constantly are reminded of is how while things may be happening on a national level with these policies, there's interpersonal racism and not even microaggressions, you know, but like there's been a lot of interpersonal challenges, I think with folks feeling more emboldened, you know, we've heard reports of folks getting spit on or like hate mail or, you know, just
Being a person walking down the street, I think a lot of folks feel emboldened by this behavior and we're also starting to see it in our students and in our young people.
I remember right after Trump was elected, there were...
young boys running around school saying your body my choice.
You know, rubbing it into these young girls and we're talking about high school students.
So I think that's something that we need to think about when we're thinking about what happens on a national level that our kids are watching and they're either taking notes of how to perpetuate that behavior or they are being impacted by being on the receiving end of some of these really hateful and vile messages.
Yeah, and Donald Trump has given a permission slip to everyone in America You know every white heterosexual
in
America to be is as bigoted and proud of their bigotry and in your face with their bigotry as they ever wanted to be and that's kind of the bro culture that that's going on right now and Yeah, I feel for these athletes.
I mean when you're you're getting all excited to go to a meet
I mean, I was a competitive soccer player in high school.
I'm a very competitive person just period anyway on the tennis court.
And you can ask anyone I play with.
And we can't air what I say on the tennis court either.
So, and yeah, you're training for this event.
You're excited about the event.
And yeah, you might be looking to play at college and maybe there's a college recruiter there.
And, you know, you want to go out there and perform and you can't perform because of this hideousness.
So that's a real tragedy.
uh and you know people don't some people don't understand that you know the athletes of color face this almost at every age uh like my son was playing with this outside Raiders in football he was like one of two white kids on the team and and they traveled to uh a white suburb uh and
The racism was really nasty
and
the in the cheating by the officials was was
bad
told them at halftime look just go out there and and show them on the field and in the South Side readers crushed him in the second half, but it was like crazy stuff like touchdowns would be disqualified with
a
flat throne in the end zone
You know, when nothing had gone wrong, it was just nutty.
But yeah.
And he said, you're going to face this.
The coach was great at half time.
He said, you're going to face this stuff your whole life.
And it's terrible that you have to face it, but let's just go take care of business.
And so I understood that coach's response at that time.
I also understood the Rufus King coach's decision here.
And my understanding is it wasn't just parents at water.
It wasn't
just
students at Waterford High that some of the parents were quite hostile
to.
Yeah, I mean
more disappointing.
Yeah, I So I didn't play sports in high school and I went to Rufus King's rival Riverside Yeah, and you know for me I was in the band.
I was a band geek.
Um, what
instance you play
flutes?
Um, and I was also drum major my senior year.
So I directed the band.
Um, I was like real deep in like the, the, the band nerd, um, title, but there would be times that we would go to whitewater specifically.
There would be like a marching band competition or any other time where you're some, you're somewhere else with like other schools.
Um, we would get into like drumline competitions because like that movie came out.
So we were always trying to like battle other people.
Um, but a lot of times, and I'm very grateful.
that we didn't.
We didn't hear those words.
We didn't hear, you know, the offensive language, but there was definitely, it felt like a tone of like, you see all of these other kind of like school districts and they have like the nicest uniforms and the nicest clothes.
And you know that just by walking in, being one of the more diverse bands and one of the few bands and MPS that is at these sometimes competitions, there was like a, an element.
There was, it just felt like an elephant in the room.
And I'm grateful that we didn't hear any of that language.
I'm not surprised that this is how it continues to manifest because you know the kids these days they um you know we've seen how people will defend themselves is what I'll say right and people when they see students bullying them I think students are starting to try to
defend themselves in that way, but I think it's also very confusing as a young person to have to experience this and then also have to learn how to defend yourself, how to kind of walk through the world so you minimize these interactions and imagine having to be a 15, 16, 17-year-old already having to experience this and have to make those mental calculations of how you respond to racism.
And I feel also for the parents of the Rufus King athletes and how they had to process that with their kids and how it probably recapitulated events in their own lives.
I mean, so you have that happening as well.
So that was just kind of ugliness, racism here in Wisconsin.
You know, prejudice in Wisconsin is right below the surface.
Racism right below the surface.
Antisemitism right below the surface.
You drew him down as an expression.
I still hear in Wisconsin I heard it 40 years ago when I arrived here and was surprised when I heard it then and I just heard it like two weeks ago I know it's kind of house and garden variety, but you know It's a figure of speech that people grew up with but you know, it's there and it's kind of shocking when you hear it So it's just it's in the air and again as we said we're in a political climate where it's
where bigotry of all stripes and homophobia and sexism are given license.
And that's what the assault on DEI is about as well.
It's just code word, we're gonna attack anything that it had to do with solving the problem of racism and sexism in our country.
And we can get by with it by just calling it DEI.
So it's kind of a cosmetic way for folks who...
want to roll back the clock on all these gains.
And you don't want other things that discuss me that Donald Trump says more than anything, though almost everything he says discuss me, is that the MAGA movement is the greatest movement in American history.
And it's such a slight to the civil rights movement.
It's such a slight to the labor movement.
It's such a slight to the women's movement.
It's such a slight to the gay rights movement.
And he knows exactly what he's doing when he's saying it too.
And you can see him gloating about it.
It's not only self-aggrandizement about him and his movement is so great, but it's about trashing the other movements, the progressive movement in this country in the early part of the 20th century.
All of those movements, he likes to...
uh put beneath his movement curse
he's all
about putting people beneath him that's what the bully does i mean this is a pathological narcissist uh if you look it up in any of the psychiatric manuals at the dsm4 i mean he checks every box this is what he does i mean he has no empathy he bullies he dominates uh he has he can't apologize he can't admit mistakes he can't admit that he lost
to this day, the 2020 election.
And that's who he is.
But yeah, when he brags about his movement and minimizes the great mass movements of our country.
But I want to be clear, there is a mass movement, MAGA is a mass movement.
And that is a scary thing.
And we can't just say it's not an astroturf.
It's a real movement.
And that's what also I think Trump is a fascist because fascists have a mass base.
Trump
has a
mass base.
He got
what, 77 million votes?
And I bet 25 of those or 20 million of those are people who, you know, are mega movement people.
And they too want to roll back the gains of the civil rights movement, of the New Deal, of the Great Society, of the progressive movement.
They too don't really care for democracy.
They love the cult of leadership.
They think democracy is too messy.
And so we shouldn't kid ourselves that it's just Donald Trump.
I mean, if Donald Trump went away today or resigned today and went to Mar-a-Lago for some retirement, you know, the MAGA movement would be there and someone else would come to the top.
Maybe not someone as talented in demagoguery as Donald Trump is, because I think he has a real talent for that.
And that's why he's won.
But someone maybe smarter than he is, who is less...
Uh, impulsive than he is.
Right.
More strategic.
Yeah.
More strategic.
And, and so we're going to have to deal with that mass movement that he brags about.
Uh, it's not the greatest mass movement in American history.
It is the scariest mass movement in American history since the Klan days anyway.
Uh, and so we'll have to deal with that.
Uh, you're listening to Mornings with Pat Crichtlow.
I'm Matt Rothschild, the old editor at the Progressive and Executive Director of the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign with my co-host, Angela Lange of Black, uh, Block, and we'll be right back.
Join the conversation 855-752-4842.
Stay up to date on the latest news and information for your local community and Wisconsin by signing up for our free email newsletter.
Visit civicmedia.us slash email to get
started.
One of your co-hosts this morning, along with prize winner Angela Lang, Executive Director of Block, Black Leaders Organizing for Communities.
Angela Lang won for the second year in a row for an op-ed that she wrote for the recombobulation area that Dan Schaefer of Civic Media also runs.
And so congratulations, Angela.
That's great.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's strange because I'm in this room every year.
two years now with all these like professional like journalists and anchors that I grew up like watching as a kid um and last year I got silver in the same category and this year I got gold and I'm really proud of that and you know just a huge shout out to Dan for you know letting me
write things that sometimes I'm like, I don't know if this is fully fleshed out and being able to be really supportive in this kind of like journey, I'm on to, you know, writing more.
So huge shout out to Dan and also by extension, Civic Media being able to allow me to be able to continue to have a platform too.
And Civic Media made a great grab when they got Dan Schaefer on his
political
career.
Do
you want to mention what your column was about?
Yeah, it was about my reflections of the RNC.
I had been...
Really outspoken and really vocal that Milwaukee shouldn't host the RNC And I was really afraid that something bad was gonna happen And naturally it did unfortunately out of state cops were Outside of the security perimeter and shot and killed an unhoused man in Milwaukee And it was very strange last year or last week because on Monday
It was announced that RDA and Milwaukee will not be bringing charges against those officers.
And that's, you know, always something to kind of sit with in the process.
But for me personally, knowing that this piece about the RNC was going to get an award at the end of the week felt very strange and kind of like weird to wrestle with.
But
You know, I think it's important for me to kind of give some of the same perspectives and analysis that we've heard with our team.
And, you know, there are times I've had to be very critical of the mayor or of the police department.
And I put a lot of effort into that piece.
And I'm really proud that one, not only it got an award, but, you know, this year it got gold.
And funny thing, Dan and I were up in the same category as well, too.
And you beat him out.
Congratulations.
friendly competition there.
There you go.
I wanted to talk briefly about the budget cuts, joint finance on Friday or late last week anyway, just lopped off 600 items from the governor's budget proposal.
Some of these include a $500 million cut to child care counts program.
And today is a day without child care.
A lot of child care providers are out today.
It also, they took out marijuana legalization, they took out some PFAS, $125 million to deal with PFAS, $200 million to deal with lead pipes, which is a big problem in rural America, rural Wisconsin, and in Milwaukee.
And it's just outrageous.
And so Governor Evers did respond to this, we have a little audio, we're gonna play not the best audio, you'll have to forgive us.
But it's not great audio and Governor Evers, not the greatest speaker either.
But I think he's done a great job as governor.
It's just the communication side is a little bit lacking.
I'm not sure we have the clip right here, but he did say, you know, this is outrageous.
And that he's he talked about the year of the kid and the work that he's been doing there on that.
And this is a violation of everything he wants to do in the year of the kid.
Do we've got that, Greg?
Yes, we do.
No, let's just play a little bit
Hey there folks, Governor Evers here.
I declare 2025 the year of the kid in Wisconsin and I introduce the most pro-kid budget of any governor and any budget in our state's history.
Because I believe what's best for our kids is what's best for our state.
Instead, during the year of the kid, Republicans on the state's budget committee gutted over 600 provisions that did what's best for our kids and the folks, families, and communities that raised them.
Well, Wisconsinites struggle to keep up with rising costs.
Republicans are rejecting my plan to lower out-of-pocket costs on everything from utility
bills.
All right.
We get it.
Well, that is really horrible audio.
I don't understand, and maybe Greg, you want to weigh in on this, too, why the governor doesn't have a better way of delivering that message.
Can't they get a press room in a sound good sound room where they can have a
where he can give his press statements without the echoing.
It sounded like he was in some glass ceiling barn or something where it's just bouncing off or some busy restaurant where they make it as possible to eat.
What's that about Greg?
I'll tell you this right now.
If they're listening, if you want to cut me a check, I'll come help you sound better.
Yeah, I don't disagree.
I have that.
We have that problem with a lot of politicians that come on radio and TV.
They're, they're, they're in the middle of a rotunda.
They're standing there in their office and they're not built for sound.
They don't have a professional microphone, but that's, you know, that's, that's not our worry.
It's not our worry that.
But yeah, but if you're going to take the time to respond to these vicious cuts and, you know, cutting to childcare, cutting Medicaid,
being backwards on medical uh on marijuana legislation at this point i mean don't you want to be heard don't you want it to be high quality i don't that's what i don't get about it but uh at least he's standing up though angela i mean that's the thing about ordinary evers he stands up he does the right thing it's just
He's not
a great
speaker and then he was in a horrible place to give the speech.
Yeah, not not ideal I mean, but I think one of the things I can appreciate about the governor is that You know when he want when he feels strongly about an issue he speaks out I call it spicy Tony.
Oh, I'm like spicy Tony and I think we all know when he kind of
It's like, you hear a teacher swear, right?
You're like, whoa.
So I appreciate Spicy Tony, and I want more of it around more issues and more consistency.
Let's have Spicy Tony when it comes to police violence and things like that too.
I agree.
A little cayenne pepper would help.
That's Angela Lange.
I'm at Rothschild where co-hosting today on Mornings with Peck, right low on the Civic Media Radio Network.
We'll be back with Ruth Conniff of the Wisconsin Examiner in just a second.
You can join us 855-752-4842.
Good morning and welcome back.
Good morning to Pat.
I love Pat's on vacation this week.
I'm Matt Rothschild, co-hosting today with Angela Lang.
We'll be co-hosting for the next three days.
So I hope you enjoy our conversation.
I hope you'll join our conversation at 855-752-4842.
That's 855-75 Civic because we're broadcasting all across the Civic Media Radio Network.
And I'm delighted to
have our next guest join the show right now.
Her name is Ruth Conniff.
Ruth Conniff is the editor-in-chief of the Wisconsin Examiner, and she used to be editor at the Progressive Magazine, and I used to work with Ruth there for many years.
It's great to see you, Ruth.
Thanks for being on the show today.
Yeah, great to see you, man.
You know, I want to... And
congratulations to Angela.
Yeah, how do you like that?
I saw her
Friday night winning her gold award for commentary from the Wacky Press Clubs.
That's pretty
awesome.
Thank you.
Yeah, it was good to see you.
It was fun night.
I gotta get down there for one of those award shows someday.
I've never been to one of those.
You're interesting,
yes.
Sounds like a party.
Listen, I wanted to have Ruth on because Ruth, I saw your column at the Wisconsin Examiner entitled Locker Up.
Trump is determined to arrest democracy and the women who defend it.
You were talking, well, tell us about that column and what you were trying to convey there.
Well, I mean, it's only gotten worse since I wrote that column, of course.
But the column happened in the wake of the arrest of Judge Hannah Dugan at the Milwaukee courthouse, which was a huge, splashy national news story as it was designed to be.
Because basically, the Trump administration wanted to target this judge for protecting somebody who appeared in her courtroom and was being pursued by ICE right to the door of her court.
They are charging her absurdly with all kinds of federal crimes.
I think she'll probably be vindicated at trial.
She's got this dream team of lawyers now defending her.
But it was just a shocking moment where the Trump administration snatched this judge, put her in handcuffs, had her actually in ankle manacles when she appeared in court.
Outrageous, unprecedented.
This woman is not a flight risk.
She's not a risk to public safety.
You know, it just struck me that this was the fulfillment of the MAGA fantasy when they used to chant, lock her up about Hillary Clinton.
I was at the Republican convention when they were making that ringing chant.
And the idea that they are going to seize and manhandle women who are in positions of authority and opposing what the Trump administration wants to do is really chilling, as Governor Evers said.
Of course, since I wrote my.
This
has been
threatened with arrest by a woman in this administration.
The mayor of Newark has been arrested by ICE, speaking outside, holding a press conference outside an ICE facility, a private prison he opposes in his city.
So, you know, this, this really bullying, aggressive brown shirt approach to politics is continuing.
But that, yeah, that moment when they, when they grabbed Hannah Dugan struck me as a really important turning point.
a scary, scary sign.
There's a kind of sadism at play here too.
We saw it with Christy Nolan when she went to that prison in El Salvador and stood out front with all the prisoners who are half naked, jammed in there like sardines, and she and her fancy clothes.
There's a reveling in this kind of brutality, which gets to Judge Dugan and her handcuffs and ankle cuffs too.
I mean, and this, this is just
this is playing to, you know, Trump as, you know, the great leader and Trump, uh, bullying, because it, it's such a part of his whole demeanor, but it's also a part of a fascist, uh, ideology, uh, that, you know, absolutely.
And, and that's what they're after.
I mean, they were showing the pictures of her in handcuffs and, and ankle cuffs, uh, on social media and bragging about it.
And that is
just
to send a message that we're going to be blatantly cruel and that we are the superior branch of government.
We don't have equal branches of government.
And as you say, Ruth, they've mentioned that with Governor Evers, too, going after threatening the governor.
And also with this arrest that Angela and I were talking about earlier, yeah, the arrest of the mayor of Newark.
Mayor Baraka and the threatening to arrest the legislators who were there with them, the three members of Congress.
And so you got to wonder, I'm certainly wondering, where is it going to end?
And where is it going to end, Ruth?
You
know, I
mean, we have to insist that it end.
And I think the thing is the rule of law, the focus on the courts and the judges is not an accident.
But that's the place where Trump is being stopped.
You know, he's faced decision after decision that he's making unconstitutional moves to deport people without due process.
Those courts are standing in his way.
And so he's trying to terrify and humiliate and intimidate judges.
And so I think the important thing, you know, as far as where it stops is
to say, stop.
And I think that lawyers and judges have a lot of weight on their shoulders right now because they are the ones who are in a position to do that.
But other politicians can make other kinds of stands.
But I think it's really, it comes down to the courts and whether we're going to have rule of law in this country.
So when the Wisconsin Supreme Court, for no apparent reason, issued an order that Judge Dugan should be relieved of her duties, I felt like that was a
It was misunderstanding the seriousness of what's happening right now.
I think it's hard for people to adjust to the MAGA reality because we're used to being able to have confidence in the federal government.
We're used to being able to believe that the information we get from the CDC and the FDA is accurate.
We're used to the idea that there's a legal process that needs to play out, which is what the
Wisconsin Supreme Court was essentially saying, we can't have a judge who's arrested by federal agents.
It affects confidence in the courts.
So we're indefinitely relieving her of her duties.
But
in
previous examples, there was a ethics charge or somebody brought a question to the court.
And that wasn't the case here.
So I felt like that quick action to align themselves with the federal government in this situation, I understand where that comes
from.
But I think
It's not a great sign because it sends a message to the public that she actually did do something serious that she committed a serious crime that this is a you know the important thing is that she's not in the courtroom and I really think that reinforced the Trump administration.
Ruth let me follow up on that because of course there's a liberal majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
They didn't have to do this.
There wasn't a petition before them to disqualify or tell her to get off the court.
get off the bench at least temporarily.
So do you have any reporting as to why this happened or any idea why they did this all on their own so quickly?
Because it was kind of astonishing.
I don't and I'm curious and I'd like to know.
I'd like to, you know, have some off the record conversations even to try to find out, but I don't know any more than you do about it.
you know, except that I think that they take their position seriously and feel like this is, you know, just from a completely apolitical standpoint, the right thing to do when a judge is arrested and they're sort of a shadow cast over her.
Of course, she had already been relieved of her duties by her boss, the chief judge in Milwaukee.
So there was no issue in terms of her currently appearing in court.
And like you said, you know, nothing, nobody came and asked them to do this.
So it was kind of an unforced signal that they are, you know, they want, they want a signal that they're serious and neutral and, you know, sort of above the fray politically.
But like I said, to me, that's sort of failing to apprehend the seriousness of where we are in this country right now.
it just the Trump administration just didn't need that assist for what really instead like the bipartisan letter that went out by judges appointed by Republicans and Democrats all over the country like they said to the Department of Justice this is unprecedented it is outrageous it is an abuse of power and it shouldn't have happened at all so i think that would have been a better statement i also think oddly
The reason that Dugan was arrested has something to do with the fact that for a third time in a row a liberal woman won a seat against a conservative candidate on the Wisconsin Supreme Court and of course Elon Musk poured millions of dollars into the last Wisconsin Supreme Court race and his candidate lost badly.
So that liberal majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court is a concern for Republicans generally and for the Trump administration specifically because they came in
on the side of the you know on the other side when Susan Crawford
was
showing their muscle by grabbing this other judge who was standing in their way in Wisconsin but then they sort of got an assist from that liberal majority.
I do wonder I want to pick up on something there Ruth that you know this focus on Wisconsin from the Trump administration you know they go after Judge Dugan they threaten the governor
You know really are they gonna come arrest you know governor evers and what you know, that would be That would be something a standoff between you know the Capitol police and ice Are we really gonna have an armed confrontation in the capital the optics
alone?
Yeah, that's what they you know This is the thing that's so hard to adjust to like how do you respond effectively to this very splashy?
Bizarro world Fox News approach to politics so when Tom Homan
Trump's National Security Advisor was asked the question, would he arrest Governor Evers?
I'm not sure he knows who Governor Evers is, but he was asked that question by Gateway Pundit, which is a right-wing outfit that never would have been covering the White House until now.
And his answer was, you know, just wait and see what's coming.
Well, that, I think, then unfolded with the arrest of Rasparaka, the mayor of Newark.
They're sending this really clear message.
They're very belligerent.
But it's wrong footing, how bizarre it is.
So when we heard about the Gateway Pundit question and answer, and it was going viral on social media, at the Wisconsin Examiner, we weren't going to write anything about it.
It just seemed ridiculous.
It seemed like they planted this outrage, and it was just a typical right-wing tactic.
But then Evers himself,
Release that three-minute message responding.
So we're like, okay now this is news and we have to cover it and having that you know the that sort of Trump effect on the news cycle I think it makes it hard to decide like how do you effectively respond?
Do you take this stuff on as if it were real and a real threat?
Do you blow it off because it's outrageous and it's illegal and it shouldn't be a real threat?
It's you know, that's that's kind of where we all are right now
Yeah, go ahead Angela
that I know that were like, I don't think the governor should have acknowledged it.
You know, he didn't do anything wrong.
He didn't need to say anything, because I think we kind of like saw it.
And similar to, you know, Judge Dugan's arrest, you saw a certain
radio far right personality is what I'll call him.
Um, but he was tweeting about this, you know, Monday and then Friday she was arrested and he was able to do his victory lap.
And so I think this has been a constant question of like, how do we, you want to push back on the narrative?
Cause you, you know, want to acknowledge that, Hey, this is wrong.
Don't believe it.
But then by doing that, you're sometimes making it a story as well.
So I'm curious of how you kind of think about that as like an editor too.
Well, like, yeah, exactly.
Like you're saying, I mean, it's just.
It's hard to figure out what's the effective response.
We now have this, you know, White House press corps made up of influencers and these weird right wing personalities I'd never seen before.
And so it doesn't seem smart to join the right wing echo chamber and help them do their job, which is really to intimidate people because they're not going to arrest every Democratic governor.
They're not really even going to round up a significant percentage of immigrants who are here without legal status because it's too much to take on.
So really scaring people a lot with these handful of high profile arrests is their whole point.
So then if you help spread the word about that, you're kind of doing their job for them.
On the other hand, at a certain point, it does rise to the level of news.
And people have to say they have to know about this stuff.
So it's a judgment call every time.
You know, in that case, we didn't pick it up from Gateway Pundit, but, you know, when the governor himself said something, then that made it definitely news for us.
Sure was.
That's Ruth Kanoff.
She'll be with us right after the break.
I'm Matt Rothschild and Angela Lange is with us here on Mornings with Pat Grabo.
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We have a caller already on the line, Ollie, from the Northwoods, who calls occasionally.
I always like hearing Ollie's voice on the Civic Media Radio Network.
Ollie, what's on your mind?
Oh, good morning.
I just had...
a question or a thought.
I know when the judge was first arrested, I couldn't help but thinking to myself this appeared to be retribution for Elon Musk being so, so firmly turned down in Wisconsin.
And then when Governor Evers
Came along then I then I was sure that this Definitely seemed to be the way it rolls with them and I know like in Michigan when the The governor there spoke out for trans People then Trump went after their their
in different ways.
I just wonder what you guys have to think about that.
Well, thanks for the call, Ollie, from the Northwoods.
Always nice hearing your voice.
And we're joined by Ruth Conniff, who's the editor-in-chief at the Wisconsin Examiner here.
And Ruth, you had made this point that Ollie was talking about, that they have it in for Wisconsin here in part because Elon Musk threw, what was it?
25 million dollars down the toilet and they want to maybe make an example of wisconsin uh who know
yeah i think that's one aspect of it and the other is to send a message to judges to get out of the trump administration's way because you know they had arrested another judge really close to the time that they arrested hannah dugan also on charges related to uh supposedly concealing an immigrant who they wanted to deport that was at that judge's home in another state but
So that's one thing.
Political retribution, absolutely.
Making an example of liberals, especially liberal women who have some power, that's red meat for the base, and hopefully, in their view, intimidates and frightens judges so that they just go along, capitulate.
And then of course the whole underlying issue which is that somehow the United States is under invasion and needs to use a wartime law from the 1700s that's almost never been invoked to deport people without due process because they pose an existential threat to the United States.
So the whole premise for this thing is straight out of this crazy right-wing fantasy because you know you're talking about
an unacknowledged workforce in this country that employers have begged to come here and depend on, and in the case of Wisconsin's dairy industry, would collapse overnight if they didn't have immigrants who don't have proper documentation, working for them doing 70% of the labor in Wisconsin's dairy farm.
So, you know, the whole thing is sort of made up and
And it seems so not so like Angela was saying earlier, like, what do you do?
It just seems crazy that you have to make the point that a group of people who have a lower rate of crime than US-born people and who are holding together the economy of this country pose this incredible threat equivalent to being invaded by a foreign army.
And so we have to take these extraordinary steps to crack down.
And like you said, Matt, in this very sadistic way, making an example of people
for fun people, grabbing a guy who did makeup and hair from Milwaukee and throwing him in that horrifying prison in El Salvador on the grounds that because he had a little tattoo of his mom and dad that he's a gang member.
I mean, these are crazy things.
But all of those premises, all of it is about this politics and it comes out of this, this alternative reality in right wing media where immigrants are terrifying and something has to be done.
You had said earlier, Ruth, that it's really important now for judges and lawyers to stand up.
But what concerns me is that judges have already ruled that Trump can't do this, that the Alien Enemies Act, you know, we're not under invasion, so it's an illegitimate invocation.
So what happens when you have a president who just say, I don't care what the judges say, and that's basically what he and
and Stephen Miller and some of these other folks are telling him he should do.
Well, they're not winning on everything, though.
And I think that's important for people to understand that when the judges in very local decisions, like in Texas, said you cannot take these Venezuelans who are in a detention center there and send them out of the country without due process, that stopped the deportation flits.
So there are things that are making a difference.
And I would say, importantly, here in Wisconsin, we have immigration attorneys who are stopping people from being deported.
Deported in court every single day and we need to support places like the nonprofit the community immigration law center here in Madison, Wisconsin that are doing that work because when people have a lawyer and go to court when they're the government's trying to deport them they have a 50% success rate of preventing that deportation so one and two times people are not being sent away and I think that's it's important to understand that there is some traction that we can get that some productive things are happening and can happen through the courts
and that the fighting back
does work, even this juggernaut that appears to be rolling over everything.
Yeah, sometimes they're just loud, right?
And I think that's a good reminder is that like, yes, things are very terrible and the world is on fire.
At the same time, when you look at the broad, you know, the numbers, right?
Like these are some cases where they're just trying to have this theatrics, right?
They're trying to have a moment and trying to be dramatic.
But at the end of the day, there's more people that don't believe in that than do.
And I think that's an important reminder.
Yeah.
Well, thanks, Angela, for that.
It is crucial to not concede that they're just going to roll over us.
We can't let that happen.
Ruth Connolly has been our guest.
We'll be right back with Representative Christian Phelps.
You're listening to Mornings with Pat Tritlow.
I'm Matt Rothschild with my co-host, Angela Lang, and thanks for listening.
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