Habeas Corpus Is For All, Not Some (Hour 1)

Good morning, welcome, welcome to Matt and Air on Air, Jane, Matt and Air, Greg Bach, and Calvin Butenoff coming to you live from our studio here at Radio Park in Racine.

You can always join us no matter where you are listening around the state.

Give us a call.

Send us a text at 855-752-4842.

Leave a comment if you're watching on the live stream, on Facebook, YouTube, and what used to be Twitter coming up on the show after the 930 News.

Judge Paul Michelle is going to join us.

He's a member

of Keep Our Republic's Article 3 Coalition.

And among many things, as we had mentioned yesterday, we're going to talk about Judge Hannah Dugan here in Milwaukee County.

She made her appearance yesterday in court, and we will kick that around.

Also, habeas corpus.

Getting to know habeas corpus.

Oh, it's an important one.

It is an important one, and it is something that a Trump administration official has suggested.

We can just throw that out.

We don't really.

We don't

really need that.

You know what I'm going to throw on top of Habeas?

I'm just going to throw the Constitution, some lighter fluid, hit a match,

gone.

Yeah.

So we're going to talk about Habeas Corpus and what that means and why that's important with Judge Paul Michelle.

Again, that's coming up after the 9 30 news in the 10 o'clock hour.

The Republican controlled legislature in Wisconsin.

We've talked a lot about childcare.

Oh, yeah, and what our child care providers need and what parents need and Yep, the legislature has their answer and my response is that's it That's it That's that's your fix after the four joint finance committee meetings that they held around the state where the top three considerations were child care affordable housing and health care, yeah

They weren't listening.

They were all playing Candy Crush.

Come on, let's just

admit it.

It's what experts in the industry call, what do they look up here?

A dog in pony show.

That sounds correct.

Yes.

So that will be next hour.

And then also next hour, he did, Derek Van Orden did something good.

Just stand there for a moment.

That other shoe will drop anytime.

I'm sorry.

I'm so cynical.

I'm so cynical at this

point.

I think this could be a good thing if

this

is actually

True.

And then the last half hour of the program, audio Sorbet, where we try and lighten things up a little bit, take a breath away from the news.

We want you to fill in the blank.

Yeah, after 1030, I went to buy a blank and I ended up with a blank.

Yeah.

That's coming up after 10.30.

This happened to you yesterday.

It's like an SAT question.

Well, wrap up the show as we always do it.

This shouldn't be a thing.

Today it is the, if it looks like a duck edition.

So stay tuned for that.

One of the start off though, we had mentioned this at the top of yesterday's show about that deadly fire at an apartment complex in Milwaukee that broke out over the weekend.

Five people were killed tragically and over 100 people now in temporary shelter.

If you want to make a donation, you can help out.

Give to the Red Cross.

Red Cross is assisting these people.

But the thing that's the topic now are sprinkler systems in apartment buildings.

One other side note as well.

Milwaukee investigators still not ruling out the possibility that this fire was set intentionally, which is horrific.

Milwaukee Fire Chief Aaron Lipsky not ruling that out.

He said the investigation, one of the deadliest in Milwaukee in decades,

continues, but there are some reports that say that a boyfriend, girlfriend were having an argument and someone threw an accelerant into an apartment and that may have been what sparked it.

Finding the cause of fires like this takes time.

Yeah, it's an investigation.

So they don't know that for certain, but and either way, this apartment building did not have a sprinkler system, which is

Kind of the big topic and what should be done about that?

Samely speaker Robin Voss Popcorn King Popcorn King himself a landlord Oh,

oh

here.

He's here.

He's arrived.

He has arrived Robin Voss is a landlord and he was asked about this now It's my understanding that up until either 1971 or 1974 those buildings those apartment buildings are exempt from having sprinkler systems.

Yeah

anything built after that and newer buildings have to come with the sprinkler systems.

Here is what Robin Voss had to say about this deadly fire in Milwaukee from over the weekend.

Calvin, can you play that clip, please?

We want to ensure that of course people are safe but we have to be careful about overreacting to a single or unfortunate incidents like this which occur but less and less likely over time.

Wisconsin like most of the country has a housing crisis and it's mostly focused on affordability.

The last thing that we want to do is to make it even more expensive to own a home or to rent an apartment.

I guess I don't disagree with that but I would also think that

Getting sprinkler systems installed is a good way to protect your investment.

Yeah, but if they have insurance and it burns down, then there you are.

And I looked it up just to clarify, it was anything constructed in before 1974 that are 60 feet or higher are not required to have sprinkler systems.

And it said this exemption also applies to high rise buildings in Milwaukee as nearly 70%

were built before 1974.

That is a scary thought to me.

It is.

Five people were killed in that Mother's Day fire on Milwaukee's near northwest side.

30 people had to be rescued by firefighters.

Some people were jumping out of second floor windows, trying to get out of there.

Again, the 85 unit building was built in 1968, was not required to have sprinklers.

Milwaukee Fire Chief Aaron Lipsky said,

You make absolutely no mistake.

This dramatically impacts the survivability in a building once a fire starts.

Again, Robin Voss said passing a new law that would require sprinkler systems might feel good in the moment, but will likely result in landlords passing on the costs of installing those, which he suggests will lead to more homelessness.

This is, I mean, I'm not saying that he's not accurate about that.

Rent is crazy.

expensive.

Yeah.

But the, the pro, the problem with what he said is he opened another can of worms.

Yeah.

We need to, Angela and Matt talked about this morning on mornings with Pat Crite love.

They're filling in by the way today and tomorrow and

She she was talking about being in Madison or talking to legislators and finding out that not this is not a this is by the way not a Republican thing because Democrats in power in Madison own Properties and they do not want any sort of mandate which cause the money to cost money and he's right The the cost of rent is high and the cost of housing is high How do we handle that one while we're at which is something they don't even want to touch so I feel it's disingenuous to use that as a reason

when you're not even going to try to do something to fix that as well.

Like all of a sudden you care about the price of homes and apartments.

No, you're using it as a reason not to

ensure

the safety of the people who are living there.

So thanks, Robin, but no thanks because you don't want to take on anything.

So.

Highland court apartments where this fire occurred again over the weekend was not required by city codes to have sprinklers because of the age.

of the building, but again Milwaukee Fire Chief Aaron Lipsky said sprinklers could have saved lives.

People caught in fires are 90% more likely to survive if the property has automatic sprinklers.

Only 8% of homes and apartments in the U.S.

have such a

system.

a tragedy, and Robin Voss's response, in my opinion, is nothing more than saying thoughts and prayers, like, yeah, that's too bad, but we can't really do much about it because, ugh.

Well, and when we've talked about the

high price of rent and the high price of homes, one of the continuing problems is a lack of inventory, and not enough things are getting built.

Yeah.

Well, now they're, I mean, Milwaukee is focusing on...

But

Milwaukee seems on the real high end properties though.

Yeah, but they're, yeah.

And they're focusing on building expensive apartments, condos, because they want, they want so desperately to attract young business people and small families back to Milwaukee for, to raise the population, to, you know, you know, add to the economy, all those things.

But the problem is some of them aren't being.

Occupied because one families might not want to live here or Milwaukee and also Like it's really expensive.

Well, I have a friend who lives in the third ward in a newer in a newer building It's probably only within the last 10 years

an apartment or a cut like it's

again.

It's they're in a condo

Are they owning or rented they own?

Okay, they

own there.

They bought their

condo.

It's

tiny.

Yeah teeny tiny But they have a little balcony that overlooks the river.

Yeah, but they have told me

the vast majority of units on their floor are owned by people from Chicago.

So

they only come up on, maybe they come up a couple weekends of summer.

That's something we dealt with when I lived in Racine too.

All these individuals who own slips for their boats, own rent apartments in Racine, they come up here because, you know, Chicagoans love Chicago, but they love coming to Wisconsin because it's so much cheaper.

But after August or September, they're not adding to the economy.

And people can't rent those places even if they could afford them.

It's a problem.

It's a big problem.

And I really wish that Robin Boss would be serious about trying to find a solution.

I mean, he said it himself.

And I think it's important what Angela said in that there are democratic politicians in Wisconsin who are also landlords.

Absolutely.

And so it's not just one side.

No, no, no, I'm not and I'm not painting as one side.

I'm just saying Robin Voss is the is the you know commander-in-chief of denial He does not want to do anything He never wants to help he always has a reason not to and it always seems like it's important to listen to why he doesn't want to help you but as you just read the fire chief of Milwaukee said that five people died and could have possibly been saved with sprinklers do so five lives is not enough for Are we talking about guns again?

Are we talking about guns is?

Five lives not important enough to take up this matter to try to find some solution.

I'd say make a rebate or a tax credit system where landlords could install these systems and get something back from the state or possibly the Fed.

But God knows they'd take that out because as we said yesterday, they want to separate policy from finance.

Yeah, right.

This is tragic.

People are mourning the loss of families and

And we're sitting here talking about, you know, oh, the rent is so high.

Yeah, it is.

Do something about it.

But they won't do that either.

In 2008, the Wisconsin Department of Safety and Professional Standards tried to mandate sprinklers and apartment buildings with four or more units built after 2011.

You've got a lot of pushback from the home building industry.

And then Governor Scott Walker signed a law prohibiting

State agencies from writing rules that are more restrictive than state law.

This is what I was talking about yesterday.

And I don't like harping on them all the time.

But every time you face a Republican with something, they change the rules.

You can't write rules.

My job is to write rules.

So what do I do?

I don't know.

Do you like Candy Crush?

Then Attorney General Brad Schimmel issued a legal opinion in 2017 agreeing that the rule was unenforceable to the big disappointment of local fire chiefs.

That decision, though, later overturned by AG Josh Call in 2021.

Plants for dwellings with three or more units submitted to the departments after 2021 now must have a sprinkler system.

Again, if you would like to help out these folks, five people died.

There are at least 100

that now have no place to live

and have

essentially lost everything.

So you can contact the Red Cross, make a donation to the Red Cross.

And as we always like to say too about giving blood,

even it's always a good time to give blood.

They're always in need.

And I've said it before and I'll say it until the day I can't say it.

If every person who was eligible gave once a year, there would be no shortages.

And I'm sure about that right now, they could use it.

So there'll be, there will be links in the show notes to Red Cross as well as versatility for donating just

Get out there help and do what you can do

what you can do what you can stay close You are listening to Matt Nair on air.

This is the civic media radio network.

We'll be right back

Good morning.

Welcome.

Welcome to Matt Nair on air.

Jane Matt Nair, Greg Bach, and the Board Lord coming to you live from our studio here at Radio Park in Racine.

You can always join us, call or text.

The number is the same 855-752-4842.

Leave a comment if you're watching on the live stream on Facebook, YouTube, and what used to be Twitter.

Coming up later on today, two to four, our friend and colleague, Todd Alba.

is going to have a midweek recap of all the state headlines and how you can positively persuade people when it comes to politics.

Oh boy.

So he's going to have Trig V. Olsen on Senior Advisor at the Lincoln Project and then a summertime edition of What's Worse.

God only knows what that's gonna be.

It's a lot of what's worse.

It's great.

It really

is

great So join Todd today from 2 to 4 p.m.

Across the civic media radio network something that happens, which I just went what?

This is from the Wisconsin public radio Anya then Wagon Donk with the byline Wisconsin pharmacists could prescribe birth control under by partisan assembly bill.

Wait, did you say?

bipartisan I did which means both sides agreed on something we try to highlight that don't

understand

because it's control too because it's such a rarity so we do like to kind of focus on that when we can actually come together and get something done seems like a good thing

Are you stunned?

I'm stunned speechless.

I know.

Lawmakers in the assembly approved a bipartisan bill yesterday allowing pharmacists to prescribe contraception, a proposal previously faced headwinds in the full legislature.

Representative Joel Kitchens, a Republican from Sturgeon Bay, lead author of the contraception bill across multiple sessions.

He said this will lower hurdles to getting birth control,

and help low-income women avoid unwanted pregnancies.

Quote, along with drug addiction, unplanned pregnancy is the number one contributor to generational poverty, unquote.

And he added the bill will also help lower the need for abortions.

The bill co-sponsored by several Democrats backed by a range of medical and public health organizations.

No surprise, it's opposed by anti-abortion groups.

but it passed 87 to 10 with only 10 Republicans opposed.

All right, Jane, I don't wanna sound like the, as Mrs. Miller said in our choir, the poop and the milk here, like I'm trying to ruin things, but this seems too good.

You know what I mean?

Like

they're actually doing something

positive for people?

Out of nowhere.

And on an issue as divisive as,

birth control, childbirth, all the, anything have you to do with human life coming into the world that a bipartisan bill would come out like this and pass strongly.

Yeah.

And Joel Kitchens, you know, the guy who knows more about pregnancy than anyone because he's a veterinarian.

Oh, that's right.

It just feels like I'm gonna walk it, like I'm gonna walk in the room and there's gonna be a big hand that's gonna slap me in the face going, we got you.

Well, don't worry, it's gonna go to the Senate.

Or will it?

That good point there.

Devin, are you listening?

Yeah.

Are you working that day?

Yeah.

We'll see if it makes it to the Senate, and then I would likely assume that the Senate will crush it.

But as it is written, the bill allows a pharmacist to dispense hormonal birth control rather than requiring a person to first get a prescription from a doctor.

Pharmacists would still have to explain.

that birth control does not protect against sexually transmitted diseases.

And it doesn't guarantee no birth either.

No, it doesn't.

There is no 100% sure birth control except abstinence, which is really popular.

That's no fun.

But again, this is a positive thing.

I am delighted to see something happen that both sides came to agree on.

But again, pretty much if it makes it to the Senate, I'm fairly certain they're going to squash it there because.

Why would we do something that seems to help?

Why would we take up an issue, Jane, in which the Wisconsin public and the United States pretty much agrees that there should be, it's overwhelming like as far as like access to birth control and contraception and those types of things.

People are, it's sort of like, yeah, of course I do.

I got to get to work.

Stop asking me questions.

It's a, it's a no brainer, but leave it to Wisconsin to step in the poop on this one.

I guarantee it's going to happen.

Well, we will, we will continue following this.

and see where this goes.

Before we went to the break, we were talking about that tragic fire at that apartment complex in Milwaukee that happened on Sunday.

Lost five lives and now over 100 people are without a place to stay talking about sprinkler systems in apartment buildings.

Richard from Waukesha is on the line and you wanted to comment about that.

Richard, thank you for joining us.

What did you want to say?

Hi.

Well, I've got a little pun on the end, but

If they were to put sprinkler systems on one hallway, one floor a year, you could maybe get peace of chance there.

You know, like the automobile industry, how they put in pollution control a little at a time.

Instead of taking it all

on in

one fell swoop.

Yeah.

Right.

And maybe have some financial.

benefit or some, you know, easier method.

Yeah.

Thanks,

Richard.

Appreciate it.

Greg, that's

what you had said.

If they

could get something back from the state.

But again, it's Robin Voss's $4 billion surplus.

It's not even getting interest, I believe.

It's just sitting there.

He gets to decide where that money goes.

And it should go to Diane Hendricks.

But anyway, we have news coming up next.

And then when we return, we're going to be joined by Judge Paul Michelle.

He is a member of Keep Our Republic's Article 3 Coalition.

We're going to learn about that.

And also,

habeas corpus.

Why should we care?

What does it mean?

That's all on the way.

Stay close.

You are listening to Matt and air on air.

This is the civic media radio

network.

Good morning, welcome to Matt and Air on Air.

Jane Matt and Air, Greg Bach, Calvi on the board, coming to you from our studio at Radio Park in Racine where you can always join us.

Call or text the number is the same 855-752-4842.

You can leave a comment.

If you're watching on the live stream, on Facebook, YouTube, and what used to be Twitter, happy to be joined by our guest, he is a member of Keep Our Republic's Article 3 Coalition.

Judge Paul Michelle is here.

Good morning, Judge Michelle.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Good morning to you and your listeners.

Judge, can you tell us first of all what this organization is that you belong with?

What is Keep Our Republic's Article 3 Coalition and what is your goal?

The coalition has presently 30 retired federal judges as members and the number keeps growing day by day.

Our goal is to help people understand in the din of claims and counterclaims and propaganda how courts work and what they need to do their job properly, which basically is to not be interfered with so that

The judge can decide the case on the law and not on political power plays by anybody.

Essentially, stay out of it and let us do our job, right?

That's a good way to put it.

And of course, the job sometimes involves checking excesses by the Congress or the executive branch.

If they go beyond their legal authority and do something unlawful, then it's the job of the court to say, well, that's unlawful.

It cannot stand.

It's just that is more important than ever.

I think now that we're under the second Trump administration and we see some of the things that are going on and some of the things that they are kicking around.

And I wanted to start with this because.

I am not that well-versed in habeas corpus.

And I would really like you to explain Judge Michelle.

Again, Stephen Miller, who is in the Trump administration, says we can suspend habeas corpus.

No big deal.

What does that mean?

What is habeas corpus first and foremost?

Great question.

Of course, it's an ancient Latin phrase.

It's been a feature of American law since the beginning.

before that for centuries, English law, the basic idea is that if somebody is detained under assertion of lawful authority by somebody, usually an executive branch official, that lawfulness should be able to be tested by a judge.

So if there's evidence to support an arrest or other detention,

That can be presented to the judge.

And then the judge says, OK, there is a lawful basis.

Go ahead.

If there is not a lawful basis, then the judge says, stop.

You must free that person you've detained because there's no lawful basis to hold that person.

So it's a test of legality.

So essentially, say I get arrested for some reason.

I get taken into custody by the administration for some reason.

And.

habeas corpus allows me to defend myself and say this is why these charges are bogus or this is why these charges should not apply is that accurate

That's true, but it's also a chance for a judge to question the government official who's arrested you, say, what was your basis?

Did you have a warrant?

What are the facts?

What law are you acting under?

So it's a chance for the arrested or detained person to give their side of the story, but it's also a chance for the judge to make sure that the basis asserted by the arresting authorities is fully tested.

And

Judge, one of the things they're saying about this, the wanting to suspend habeas corpus is in times of invasion and they're using immigration as a tactic.

And is there a litmus test used by judges or government officials to actually say, all right, we are at the point, we are like, let's say there was an actual invasion to suspend habeas corpus, or is this something that would be a trickle down event where you'd say, all right, we have.

these examples.

How do you even determine what would suspend something so important in our greatest document?

Well, we might be able to imagine a case that would be in a gray zone, but the problems with immigration are not a close call in my judgment.

The suspension power allowing habeas corpus to be temporarily set aside for urgent emergencies

is limited to two circumstances.

One is foreign armed invasion and the other is internal armed rebellion.

So it seems to me quite clear that we don't have anything approaching either of those tests and therefore for habeas corpus rights to be suspended would be unlawful and will not stand.

Secondly, the ability for

The habeas corpus rights to be temporarily set aside is a power vested in Congress, not in the executive branch.

The provision is part of a statute.

It's based on part of Article 1.

That's the correctional part of the Constitution.

Article 3 is the judicial part, hence Article 3 coalition referring to judges.

So, uh, Mr. Miller can say whatever he wants and so can anybody else, but that doesn't make it true.

If you're just joining us, our guest is Judge Paul Michelle.

He's a member of keep by republics article three coalition.

And right now we are talking about habeas corpus and what is it and why is it important?

Judge Michelle, say the Trump administration did find a way to justify suspending habeas corpus or ignoring habeas corpus.

What would that mean for regular Americans?

What would that mean for our legal system?

Well, basically, it would mean that anybody could be arrested and imprisoned anytime for any reason or no reason at all.

And there would be no way that person or their family or their friends or anybody else could help them.

They would sometimes simply disappear.

has happened in many foreign countries where government authorities just quote disappeared people.

Sometimes they went to jails and people knew where they were.

Other times they literally disappeared and then many times later bodies were found.

So it's a terrible problem if there is no way to test the lawfulness of detention because it means the people in charge of the police

type organizations can do anything they want anytime for any reason with no check on their power.

The whole idea of our Constitution is based on checks, checks and balances.

The courts are supposed to be a check on excess by the other two branches on lawful actions and correspondingly, if the courts act improperly, the Congress.

can step in, judges can be impeached, so can other officials.

So the whole idea is each branch is supposed to do its job, stay out of the job of the others, and serve as a check if one of the other branches goes off the rails.

Jane and I like to say we are not lawyers or judges, we are lawyer and judge adjacent.

So I just want to ask you a question, because I want to hear you say the words.

When I talked about this on social media, someone said to me, well, this is just for illegal immigrants, isn't it?

And another lawyer piped up and said, when they suspend habeas corpus, it's not for some, it's for all.

There's no, there's no asterisk.

If they suspend it at all, it's going to be applied to all.

And there's not just a, well, habeas corpus, but if you are so-and-so, that is true, correct?

You are correct.

It is either applicable or totally suspended for anybody and everybody everywhere in the whole country.

So if habeas corpus were suspended, any American citizen who's lived a totally perfect, lawful life could be arbitrarily arrested by authorities and there would be no protection and no check and no recovery from that.

So it's a big threat.

It's not a small thing.

and it can't be limited to violent illegal immigrants or any other kind of group.

You are exactly right about that, Greg.

You'd be a good lawyer.

Yes.

Oh, God, don't tell him that, Judge, because we're never going to hear the, his head is going

to go.

For the record, I got all A's and con law, so I'm just putting that

down.

Judge Paul Michelle is our guest, and we're talking about habeas corpus, and I think it's important that people understand countries like Russia and North Korea

And China even, it's, they can, they grab you and they disappear you.

They do this with political rivals.

They do this with anybody who

can-

Journalists?

Journalists, anybody who wants to speak out against the regime.

That's what they do in those countries.

I would think that is not what we want to see in America.

It would be totally inconsistent with every year of our existence as a country and contributing our law and create a horrible circumstance for all our citizenry.

I'm curious, when you talk to other members of your group, what is the level of concern when you hear things like this coming out of the Trump administration?

Well, I should say that misunderstandings and misstatements preceded the Trump administration.

There's been a lot of loose false talk about what the role of judges is, how courts act, why we need them.

But I would certainly agree with the idea that it's gotten much worse in recent months under the

Trump second term.

And that's a great concern because so many things are being done by the administration at a rate never before seen, hundreds of initiatives, endless numbers of executive orders

separate from other initiatives.

There are something like 250 lawsuits challenging those actions by the administration, pending in the courts, federal courts, all around the country.

So this is a huge

showdown battle between the rule of law on the one hand and unchecked executive power to do whatever they want on the other hand.

It's very stark, it's very worrisome.

The other members of the coalition are highly alarmed and that's why we've all volunteered to try to help clarify things so the citizenry and media and everybody else and policymakers and politicians can understand what's at stake and how it all works.

And just to reiterate, again, going back to habeas corpus and suspending habeas corpus, if the Trump administration were able to do this, this isn't only going to affect people who are here illegally, bad people who are here illegally.

This will affect everyone in this country.

Every single one of us then would be subject to just getting snatched up with essentially no recourse.

And no basis just because somebody's angry at you or somebody wants to get you out of the way or you're a media person and they want to silence you or you're a judge and they want to make sure you can't rule against them

Which is funny because as you say that I'm thinking I'm thinking

They're taking people out the street because of tattoos.

They're snatching up judges in Milwaukee.

So there are examples showing that they are pressing on the limits of this before they completely have to just say, well, you know, Habeas Corpus is just, it's an impediment.

Let's just get rid of that.

It's just a suggestion.

Greg, I think that really it's even a little worse than you say.

I think basically the implicit message of the administration is there are no limits, none.

We can do anything we want.

on any basis that we think is sufficient.

We're going to continue our conversation with Judge Paul Michelle.

On the other side, stay close.

You are listening to Matt Nair on air.

This is the Civic Media Radio Network.

We will be right back.

Good morning and welcome back to Matynair on air.

Jane Matynair, Greg Bach.

Dr. Slide on the board coming to you from our studio at Radio Park in Racine.

You can always join us, call or text.

The number is the same 855-752-4842.

Leave a comment if you're watching on the live stream, on Facebook, YouTube, and what used to be Twitter.

Our guest is Judge Paul Michelle, a member of Keep Our Republic's Article 3 Coalition.

And right before the break, we were talking about Stephen Miller and the Trump administration suggesting we just

Suspend to habeas corpus who needs it no big deal and we did have a question on a live stream from a state senator chris alpine Who asks judge michelle could the habeas corpus waiver have been used during the january 6th attack on the capital?

I wouldn't think so the scale of what the statute of providing for the waiver

looks to is mass armed invasion by a foreign power or a foreign terrorist organization or an armed rebellion like the American Civil War.

The violence at the Capitol was certainly extreme and extensive, but it doesn't amount to an equivalent of a foreign invasion or a civil war.

But I think it's an interesting parallel

Just imagine, just imagine if the administration at that point had decided to just snatch these people up and disappear all of them.

All of those, all of those January six people got due process.

They all went through due process and they were judged by juries of their peers.

I can't imagine the shrieking that would come from some folks if they were not allowed the same protections.

under habeas corpus

yes jane you have a very good point legal rights have to apply to everybody and legal limits have to apply to everybody including judges uh and so the question is uh is the situation or the action lawful

And that obviously in the end has to be determined by judges, not by officials of the other two branches.

The founders gave us a great constitution, I would say.

It's lasted longer than any other democratic constitution in the history of the world.

It's the oldest democracy, republic, extant today.

And they gave us a government of three parts, three branches.

They're all important.

They all have the role.

You could think of it as a three-legged stool.

If you break or take away one of the legs, we know what happens to the stool.

The whole thing collapses and falls over.

So all three branches are essential.

Earlier I used the phrase checks, but the rest of the phrase is end balances, checks and balances.

The balances part is how each

branch has to do its job, be respectful of the other two, stay in its lane, and avoid excess.

And when that's done, the government works beautifully.

We know how to do it.

We've done it for almost 250 years.

We ought to keep doing it, I say.

Yep, absolutely.

In the couple of minutes that we have left Judge Michelle, I did want to talk about Judge Hannah Dugan in Milwaukee.

A federal grand jury did indict Judge Dugan yesterday on charges.

She helped a man who is here illegally evade ICE agents.

I think it's important that people understand that when you go before a grand jury or a case goes before a grand jury, they're only hearing one side, correct?

That is correct.

And so the first chance that the arrested person has to tell their side of the story is when it gets into the court following an indictment.

And that's where the Duggan case will be going.

So then both sides present evidence.

And then a judge makes a determination whether a trial is even warranted.

Maybe they'll say yes, maybe they'll say no.

And if there is a trial, there still has to be proof by the government that a crime was committed and it's a serious crime, and therefore there should be consequences.

So Judge Dugan will have her day in court, as we like to say, day in court.

That's another important part of our system.

It's very unusual for a judge to be arrested.

and now indicted but of course we like to say and rightly so no one is above the law not a judge not the president not you not me and that's the way it has to be if we're going to have a functioning democracy under the rule of law rather than just under the rule of raw political power.

The one thing I would

question, though, was the necessity of cuffing her and videotaping all of that.

She wasn't a flight risk.

It's not like she was going to go anywhere.

In most instances, in a case like this, isn't it, here's the date we want you to appear.

You show up, we'll release you on your own recognizance.

Yes, that would be the norm.

And in fact, in a case like this, I would have expected the accused person to voluntarily surrender immediately.

So, no, there was no need for dramatic arrest and handcuffing.

It looked to me like it was not only unnecessary but inappropriate because it just made a mockery of the situation.

If the judge is guilty of a crime, she'll be found guilty.

If she's not, she'll be acquitted.

publicity stunt of having a dramatic public arrest was totally unnecessary.

I think very unusual and very inappropriate.

And I question whether the purposes were legitimate or it was another intimidation tactic aimed at judges and citizens in general.

You better do what we want or you're going to get hammered.

Judge Paul Michelle is a member of Keep Our Republic's Article 3 Coalition.

It has been so informative and so educational.

Judge Michelle, thank you so very, very much.

We would love to get you back on in a couple of weeks and just do a democracy check.

There it is.

There it is.

I like that.

Thank you very much.

Pleasure to be with you.

Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, sir.

We have

news coming up next.

Stay close.

You are listening to Matt Nair on air on The Vast.

Statewide, countrywide, you can pick us up in New Zealand if you have the app.

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Don't go away.

Stop and think about them

Good morning and welcome to Matinair on Air.

Jane Matinair, Greg Bach, Gavin Butenoff coming to you live from our studio at Radio Park in Racine.

You can always join us, call or text.

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entertainment discussion.

Just

some lighter things about the world of entertainment.

You need to join Pete Schwabba for a night light from six to eight p.m.

across the network.

Tonight he is going to be joined by Milwaukee Journal Sentinel entertainment writer Chris Foran to talk about all the great entertainment across Wisconsin and there's a lot.

And then he will also talk to

multi-award-winning civic media meteorologist Brittney Merleau.

When you said multi-award-winning, I was like, but which one are you talking about?

Because there's so many people here at Civic Media that are multi-award-winning.

Including Maggie Dawn.

Maggie Dawn.

Dan Schaefer.

Yes.

The list goes on and on.

But when you said meteorologists, I'm like, it's...

And she's gonna join us tomorrow as she always

does with

a little update on the forecast tomorrow at 10 20 but join Pete tonight from 6 to 8 p.m.

Coming up after the 10 30 news It is our audio store base segments where we try to lighten things up a little bit and take a breath Little cleansing for the ears Here's what we want you to fill in the blanks after the 10 30 news.

I went to buy a blank

And I ended up with a blank.

Keep it clean.

Please keep it clean.

This is this relates to you going shopping yesterday.

Yep.

All right.

So we will do that after the 1030 news and then we'll wrap up the show as we always do with this shouldn't be a thing.

Today it is the if it looks like a duck edition.

So stay tuned for that.

I did want to start off with this though.

We've talked a lot about childcare.

Kareen Hendrickson has been our guest numerous times.

She owns a daycare center in Nouglaris and all of the challenges our daycare providers have been having.

Of course, the Joint Finance Committee just wrapped up their four meetings across the state.

Some of them folks waited for nine hours, nine hours to have a chance.

to talk to the members of the joint finance committee about their concerns, the top three things at those meetings, healthcare, education, and childcare.

So what did they do with that information, Greg?

Tell us, Jane.

Republicans favor expanding employer childcare tax credit.

This from the Wisconsin Examiner, Eric Gunn, with the byline.

Wisconsin's Republican lawmakers have filed a proposed bill

expanding an existing state business development tax credit related to childcare.

The current business tax credit applies only to capital expenditures for an employee childcare program.

The measure would expand that to include other costs, including operating childcare for employees, reimbursing employees for childcare costs, and other costs related to childcare benefits.

I'm not a parent.

I don't have kids.

Yeah.

Do we have that many businesses in Wisconsin that offer childcare?

Actually, I believe we do.

There are quite a bit.

This is a number I need to get because Kareen talked about thousands of childcare centers that closed down and I apologize.

I don't remember it was applying to the country or the state.

I think it was the state.

So there are a lot and

Tax credits for the businesses are a good start, but keep the ball rolling.

Well,

if every business does not offer childcare, this deal leaves a great big hole for people who don't have access to that.

And I can, I always think back to nine to five, which was when 1984?

No, it was like 1980.

1980, that movie came out.

And one of the big plots of that film

was them setting up a daycare within the business where they worked.

And that, I thought, was gonna be the model going forward.

Yeah, here we are,

2025.

That movie is 45 years old this December, and the things that they do in that movie to better the workplace are, I would only say revolutionary, but they're all the things we're fighting for now.

Pay equity, flexible time, childcare, and they find, what do they find out in that movie?

They find out that those things, when implemented, get better workers, confident work, boost morale, and just makes it better for everybody.

Productivity goes up.

Exactly.

Productivity goes up.

That was the word I was looking

for.

Again, Wisconsin's Republican lawmakers, their answer to the childcare crisis is not to help our little, small, independent childcare centers and give them some more funding,

I don't think this is bad, but I think it's only half of the it's only half of the fix.

Hey, that's what I was saying.

It's like,

yeah, just you're almost there.

You're almost getting close getting close Howard Markline, a Republican from Spring Green says these chains of changes will increase the number of available childcare slots and provide more options for families.

Well, only if they work in a business that offers childcare and representative Karen heard a Republican from with the

said while not a silver bullet, these changes are another step in the right direction to address the child care issues in Wisconsin.

Again, it's a piece, but it still doesn't solve everything.

Democrats, I'm sorry, firing back.

Representative Randy Udell from Fitchburg noted that last week of the joint finance committee shot down over 600 budget items, including $480 million in child care funding

They proposed a child care tax credit in its place to benefit corporations instead of child care, independent child care providers who are this close to closing.

Oh, and we're going to lose a ton of them.

That was one of the things that Kareen said that if this doesn't go through, if something doesn't help stem the tide, they will go out of business.

And I don't know.

On your watch?

Politicians, Republicans, Democrats who vote against this, anybody listening?

Do you want to go back to your district and say, oh, I helped make sure that thousands of businesses went out of business on our watch because our budget was so streamlined?

Because we wanted to, as we said yesterday, separate finance from policy.

Which, again...

What a word mash, what a word salad.

Do you ever hear someone talk and they're trying to sound, I mean, you've heard me talk, trying to sound smart by saying fancy words.

That's to me, we're trying to separate policy from finance.

What does that mean?

I have no idea.

But it sounds really good.

It sounds like it justifies me wearing a tie to work.

And it's confusing.

Yeah.

Sean Fettoplace, who we have spoken to many

times,

National Campaign Director for Main Street Alliance, sent a memo to lawmakers saying, quote, providing a 15%

refundable business tax credit for businesses providing childcare benefits won't appreciably increase access to childcare for Wisconsin workers.

This is simply another tax break for large companies.

A similar credit exists at the federal level, which is widely regarded as not hitting the goal of increasing affordability and accessibility.

Again, this is only good if you work for a company that offers childcare.

I would love to see more companies do this.

I would

think that would be in their own best interests.

Absolutely.

Can you imagine, I'll bet you this, when the pandemic happened, there were stories coming out saying that people were willing to take slight pay cuts to work remote because it just provides the opportunity to look after your kids.

It provides so much more opportunity for yourself.

I'll bet you, you ask any parent and they say, if you went to a job and they said, we'll pay you this much,

But it comes with childcare free childcare.

They would take it I would guarantee they pick take a small pay cut to do that because it's going to save them money in the long run from going to childcare services, which are so expensive Childcare is equitable to paying for college.

It's most

in some instances.

It's more expensive than colleges moms and dads We would love to hear from

you

eight five five seven five two four eight four two eight five five Seven five civic if you applied for a job

And they said, we're going to pay you a little bit less than our competitor, but we offer childcare.

Would you take that deal?

Yeah.

855-752-4842, 855-75 civic.

This business tax credit is refundable.

The credit recipient gets the full value of the credit back from the state, even if it's more than what the recipient owes in taxes.

Corrine Hendrickson, who again has been a guest.

many times on the show, criticized the lawmakers for, quote, refusing to do the same for our hardworking families with a child and dependent tax credit, unquote.

Wisconsin's child and dependent care tax credit for families is not refundable, which effectively makes this tax credit worth much more to people who make more money than those with lower incomes.

They're almost there and you know that Jane you know they're patting themselves on the back saying see we did all we did such a good We did something to help Jane see we

did a thing.

We're helpers see you and you know what Jane you should appreciate it because we'll take it away

Well, and I do appreciate it.

I think it's a good step Yes, but it's only a quarter of what we need Again unless more companies want to start installing childcare centers, which I'm not a business owner

I can only imagine the insurance issues and the other costs that would come up with that.

But wouldn't you rather have your employee at work rather than I have to go home because my kid is sick or I have to...

You know, I have to leave work early because I have to go pick up my child from school

Well in that situation if you have a if you have a really great boss that boss is probably gonna do their best to accommodate those but it will lead to frustration and Possible termination out of no other choice and then we can't keep doing this or if you have a terrible boss They'll be like you can go home, but don't come back Yeah, you're putting the parent in a horrible situation because they can't get help because this state this capital

Doesn't want to help.

They just They don't want to help them.

It's just say dollars say the words We don't want to help you

period.

Well, and I think again, we've talked about this four billion dollar surplus Mm-hmm and investing in things.

Yes, this isn't spending this isn't wasteful spending.

This is an

investment.

Absolutely.

It's I Don't know about you, but are you tired of beating your head against this brick wall because it just seems like

We have, we have Karina and we have, we have other childcare providers.

We have parents calling us and texting.

And it's once again, another issue in which the people of Wisconsin broadly agree on.

I mean, whether it's childcare, healthcare, abortion access, gun control, legal marijuana, these are things that Wisconsin lights almost kind of shrug their shoulder and say, yeah, of course, what?

Well, that's a simple question.

And then it gets to Madison and it stops.

And they treat it like it's the biggest impediment to our freedoms, our state, and the people.

It's just hogwash.

I can't believe I just said that word.

That's another, we'll do that one.

Things our parents said that I can't believe came out of

my own mouth.

There's a bunch of bunk I'm telling

you right there, Jane.

All right, we're up against the break.

When we return, he does something good.

What?

We try to spotlight.

People with which we typically disagree when they do something we

agree with, we want to talk about it.

So

Derek Van Orden.

I kind of like this idea.

Man of the people.

Stay with us.

All the details coming up.

You are listening to Matt Nair on air on the Civic Media Radio

Network.

Good morning.

Welcome back to Matt and air on air J Matt and air Greg Bach Calviente on the board

Coming to you from our studio at Radio Park in Racine, you can always join us no matter where you're listening at 855-752-4842.

Leave a comment if you're watching on the live stream on Facebook, YouTube, and what used to be Twitter about a half an hour from now.

We will wrap up the show as we always do.

With this shouldn't be a thing.

Today it is the, if it looks like a duck edition.

If you ever have a thing you think should not be, send it in to Greg and me.

at jane says at civic media dot us j a n e s a y s jane says at civic media dot us and just a reminder we are your place for baseball tickets baby

darn right when can they get them

this friday this friday you'll have a chance to pick up a

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on Fridays, so it starts with the morning show, mornings with Pat Critello, then us here on Matt and Air on Air, Tom Hartman from 11 to two, Todd from two to four, and then Maggie Dawn from four to six on Fridays, each of us will have a different keyword for you to text in.

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Before we get to the news, I...

Wow, it's so much agreement.

I'm kind of I might have to go lay down.

Do we go home for the day?

Do we get a half day for this when there's bipartisanship of this sort?

We we we complain a lot.

Yeah, we complain a lot about the other side.

We observe a great deal.

I do think it's important when things happen in Madison that we agree with that we highlight those things.

I don't care which side you're on.

I would like

All of our politicians to work for all of us in the state, no matter how you vote or whether you vote or you don't vote, you should vote.

Anyway, Wisconsin examiner Henry Redmond says Van Orden says he's working on proposal to help immigrants get work permits.

Okay.

Derek Van Orden says he's working on a measure that would alter two current programs to make it easier for businesses, including farms and hotels,

to hire immigrant workers.

This is important.

The H2A program targeted at a seasonal farm labor has frustrated Wisconsin dairy farmers because year-round workers aren't eligible for the program, and immigrant workers make up almost 70% of the workforce on Wisconsin dairy farms.

Yeah, I mean, this

is good stuff.

It would be great.

Yeah,

it would be great to see this happen.

Here is his quote.

Oh, no.

Is he yelling it?

I don't it doesn't seem yelling a quote rocks are heavy.

Trees are made of wood.

Gravity is real.

There's 20 million illegal aliens here that have been float floating agriculture, hospitality and construction for decades.

And we need their labor unquote.

Yes, Derek.

Gravity is real

Well, here's the thing is is that there are people hate to say this feel like such a Whatever there are people who support him who probably will say the following.

How do you know gravity is real?

And I'm not kidding.

Oh, I believe also There are about 11 million undocumented people not 20.

They're about 11.

I just wanted I appreciate what he's doing But once again, he decides why not speak when I can speak all the words and then that comes out of his face

This

is why people come here illegally because it is so hard to come here legally.

He's not wrong.

He's not wrong about that.

And again, this is something that has been kicked down the road for decades.

Both sides of the aisle have done this as far as the immigration mess that we have right now.

We can thank both sides for bringing us here.

And honestly, I'm going to say this and I'll probably make a lot of people angry.

I'm going to put a little bit more blame on the Democrats because they always talk about what they want to do and they never do it.

Whereas Republicans are doing exactly what they want to do right now, which is throw them out.

And that's great.

And I love this.

And I hope the wording is important.

I hope it's protecting.

the farmers and

the

workers and the whole like all the businesses and the workers but also as we said earlier this is the first step now Derek the onus is on you to come up with more legislation to help make the process in its in entirety better better help the courts less ice invasions on mother's day and the wall is not the fix yeah the wall is not the fix we need

actual solutions, not these short-term band-aids that just make people go,

America!

Ben Orton is working with the Trump administration on a proposal to alter these visa programs both currently provide only temporary work visas for people who work seasonally.

I think this is a step in the right direction.

I think this would be, this would be great.

And we know that farms, construction,

Hospitality.

They have a

lot of people.

Wisconsin Dell's alone.

Wisconsin Dell's alone runs in the summertime.

All those kids.

All those kids.

Yeah.

This is, I want to keep an eye on this.

I want to see where it goes.

I want to see how well it does.

And I want to see to make sure that there aren't little caveats.

Little hidden things in there.

Little surprises.

Anyway, DVO.

Hey, that's a, you did a good thing.

Deep more like DV go.

Oh, I like it.

Thank you.

We have news coming up next.

When we return, we will be back with audio Sorbet.

I went in to buy blank and I came out with blank.

You're listening to Matt Nair on air.

This is the Civic Media Radio Network.

Don't go away.

Good

morning.

Welcome.

Welcome to Matt and Aaron, Jane, Matt and Aaron, Greg Bach, Calviente on the board, coming to you from our studio at Radio Park in Racine.

You can always join us no matter where you're listening.

Say you're in Oshkosh.

Say you're in Green Bay.

Perhaps you're in Wisconsin Rapids.

Okay.

You can always give us a call or send in a text at 855.

7-5-2-4-8-4-2 Leave a comment on the live stream on Facebook YouTube and what used to be Twitter We got baseball action today our broadcast starts about an hour from now

At 1135, the Brewers at Cleveland catch the game on Terrestrial Radio on WRCE in Richland Center, WISS in Oshkosh, RJN here in Racine and Kenosha, WCQM in Park Falls, near Butternut, and WBZH.

in Hayward the Crew at the Guardians.

Our broadcast starts today at 11.35.

This is the segment that has turned into Audio Sorbet.

Little breather, a little break from the news and the more serious things that we are all dealing with on a daily basis so we can take a little breath and this

It comes from something that you did yesterday.

Here is the fill in the blank that we would like you to do.

I went to buy a blank and I ended up with blank.

I went to buy a blank and I ended up with blank.

8-5-5-7-5-2-4-8-4-2-8-5-5-7-5-7-5.

You go into the store for one thing.

I only need this thing.

I need vinegar.

Yeah,

for example.

Yeah,

I went to buy vinegar and I came out with shoes.

Yeah, or whatever.

Yeah,

what happened to you yesterday?

Well,

if the question's a little if you've ever been to Costco or Target, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

This happened to me in Target yesterday.

I went there to get yogurt and to get pee pads for the dog.

Okay.

That's two things.

Two things.

Actually, what's funny is that there were four things.

I forgot two of them because I bought one hundred and fifty dollars worth of other things.

Now, granted, they were groceries.

They were things I did, in fact, need.

I didn't want.

But

that's

not why you went there.

I didn't walk out with an iPad like I did one time where I was like, don't don't seal.

I got a credit card.

No, but I like I went to get yogurt and I said, oh.

But you know what?

I should get this too for me.

I'll get some granola.

I'll get my own yogurt.

I'll get some granola.

Oh, you know what?

Great.

I'll get some oatmeal.

I'll get some oatmeal.

Oh, I should get some breakfast stuff.

I'll get some breakfast stuff.

Oh, there's veggies.

There's apples.

I'm gonna get some apples.

I'm gonna get some sandwich stuff.

I gotta have sandwich stuff.

He doesn't

love lunch.

And then all of a sudden, and then I forgot two of the things.

That you originally meant to get.

Yeah!

So we want to know, have you ever walked into a store and this really does apply to a place like Target and to Costco because man, those places are hypnotic.

Oh, absolutely.

A friend of mine took me, they have a Costco membership and we went about a month ago.

I never realized I needed the jumbo bag of dried cherries before.

Jane, you have to have it because you never know if

You need cherries.

Exactly.

But you also might also need some hummus, and the hummus is right down the aisle.

It's a tub of hummus.

It's a tub of hummus.

It's a tub-us.

It's

a tub-us.

And I need something to dip it with, so I gotta get some carrots and maybe some pita bread.

So of course, Jane, this, and by the way, these are all things I bought yesterday.

I'm not just.

You bought hummus.

Hummus, carrots.

I bought a six pack of pre...

Oh God, because I just, mm.

I bought a six pack of pre-boiled eggs.

So there are hard boiled eggs that were already done, shelled in a bag at Target.

I'm like, I'll get those as well.

I bought those and they were my snack yesterday.

I have

a problem.

You are not alone.

I know I'm not alone.

You are not alone in this.

I went to the store to get blank and I walked out with blank.

8-5-5-7-5-2-4-8-4-2-8-5-5-7-5 Civic.

I went to the store to get blank and I walked out with blank.

Tell Greg he is not the only one.

Please tell me I'm the

genius.

Otherwise we gotta play for another therapy session and we don't have the money for that.

But has that ever happened?

Calvin, has that ever happened?

This also happens online shopping as well.

It happens on Amazon a lot because that's really dangerous.

I mean

everything is so cheap and everything's so available

and I

need some of these Oh, we can get it to you in four hours

Yeah,

what about you Cal?

Yeah, for me, it's like The bookstore or the game shop like at the bookstore sometimes I'll go in looking for a specific book and if they don't have it I'll still always end up buying something anyways and then the other glass

I haven't bought miniature army figures in a while because I haven't been painting.

But back when I was constructing my army, there were many times where I went in to buy a box of ten soldiers and came out with the ten soldiers plus five special guys and a spaceship to go with them.

Because you gotta have it.

Yeah.

It's just one of those things.

Jane, here's the thing is Calvin eventually will need it.

He might not need it

right now,

but he can think to himself, you know what, in like a month's time, I'm done with those soldiers.

He's thinking ahead.

So I'm thinking ahead and it's a deal because if I bought them together, it's less and it'll come to me and I'm sorry, I'm just talking about my Amazon experience, but.

But I can see you doing the same thing with Lego.

Oh, oh mother glory.

Right.

If you give me, if you gave me a gift card to Lego, the Lego store.

Shout out to Darryl, my buddy, who's the manager.

For like 50 bucks, I guarantee you the least amount I'm gonna spend in that Lego store is gonna be $200 because I'm gonna be like, oh, I got the gift card and it covers half the Lego set I won, but I also want

that one as well.

This one, I gotta have this.

It is

literally, literally, I have to tell myself to walk out of the store sometimes or just call Turkey like, don't go there, don't.

Don't drive near the mall.

I don't trust myself.

No, exactly

eight five five seven five two four eight four two You can call and or text I walked I went into the store to get blank and I walked out with blank Liz from sockville on the line I walked into by wine and I walked out with a bunch of outdoor flowers.

I can see that.

Yeah

Brian from Milwaukee listening on the radio says, Greg, you are not alone.

I worked in retail for over 15 years.

Retails strategically put essentials in certain spots of the store so that you have to go past other quote, impulse

items.

Well, I mean,

that's all about like, you know, all the things they put at the counter when you're about to like,

Check out.

I'll take a Snickers.