This is the Empowered Caregiver Show.
If you are a caregiver or know someone who is,
this show is meant to uplift you through education and support,
while also lifting up every caregiver's invaluable role in society.
Now, here is the Empowered Caregiver and your host,
Liza Helen Brand.
You are listening to the Empowered Caregiver,
and I am your host, Liza Helen Brand.
Today, I will be talking with Dr. Regina Lark,
who I could talk to for hours.
I'm sure of it.
I'm absolutely sure of it.
On a whole wide range of different topics.
She is the author of Psychic Debris, Crowded Closets,
which is in its third edition.
Psychic Debris and Crowded Closets
is about understanding the relationship between the stuff in our head
and what's under our bed.
The latest edition will also help you unlock the mysteries of managing your relationship with time.
Okay, Regina, that sounds fascinating.
Not even why I had you here today, but I had to throw it out there
because people have got to know that this book exists.
What I reached out to you for is you are also the author of Emotional Labor.
Why a woman's work is never done and what to do about it.
Wow.
Isn't that the number one question, right?
And you also do the podcast with the same same name or similar name.
The Emotional Labor Podcast.
Is that still you're still putting out new episodes of that?
I run across people and articles.
I run across people or I read articles that are authored by people that are just interesting.
And so, yeah, we'll just invite them, we'll do an episode.
It's nothing that is not, you know, it's not a, it's not something I have to do every week.
Sure. Sure.
Great episodes out there.
I recommend everyone to find that the Emotional Labor Podcast.
And then you are also a productivity consultant and do training for business owners
and their teams to increase productivity, manage time, and stop procrastination.
To be honest, I am willing to bet that I am missing about 15 other things that you have done
and you're working on.
You have on your website, ReginaLark.com.
You have listed as your areas of expertise.
And again, I am just saying this because every single one of these bullet points are like, yes, yes, yes.
I want to hear about that.
I want to learn about that.
So I want to know, I want people to know all the things that you've done and talked about
because you sound like just an extreme wealth of knowledge.
But you have listed on your website.
You are an expert on chronic disorganization, executive functioning and ADHD.
Hello, that's me hoarding productivity, psychological connections between clutter and shame,
social organization needs for people with ADD, ADHD and autism, time management, women,
emotional labor, mental load, and the workplace and workplace productivity.
Do you sleep?
That's my first question.
Let's start out.
Do you sleep, Regina?
No.
I just happen to be one of those individuals who need absolutely no sleep.
Oh my gosh.
And all of those topics are all so fascinating to me.
So anyways, welcome.
I don't even think I said welcome.
Welcome for joining me today.
I am so excited to talk to you tonight.
Besides the question of, do you sleep though?
There are so many things that I would love to talk to you.
But like I said, I reached out because I saw your TED Talk on emotional labor.
The woman's work that is never done.
So I will try my hardest to control my own ADD and focus on this topic alone because this is what caregivers need to hear.
This is huge.
However, since you have so much knowledge, can you just kind of walk me through your professional journey?
Where you started out and what you're working on today because you have a lot of expertise in a lot of different areas.
We don't have a lot of time, Lisa.
I know I was thinking about that.
I thought I'm never going to be able to ask her a question.
I'm going to be so focused on everything she's doing.
I always tell people Google me.
I'm proof nothing ever leaves the internet.
Well, you know what that that answer is is fair enough.
I can take that one.
I'm Lisa Helen Brennan.
You're listening to the empowered caregiver today.
I'm speaking with Dr. Regina Lark, who caught my eye on the TED Talk that she did on emotional labor.
Title of emotional labor.
The myth of women's work.
Regina, what is emotional labor?
Liza emotional labor was actually a term that was coined in the 1980s by a sociologist whose name is Arley Hoxchild.
And she used the term to describe the forced and the forced kindnesses and willingness to be kind on the job.
That's not in anybody's job description.
So she looked at food servers and she looked at flight attendants.
And she looked at the ways in which those roles were designed not only to do a particular task.
Take, take orders, serve food, clean up the dishes.
I mean, there's tasks that are absolutely associated with being a food server.
But the unmentioned unwashed, unacknowledged really tasks that food servers and flight attendants exhibited.
So to make those around them feel safe and seen and you know that their needs were being met, there's a, there's, there's sometimes if you will acquit pro quo to that.
I give you my best service.
I treat you as like a member of my family in the good way.
I, and I will, I, there's probably a nice tip on the other side of that.
But it's this, it's the unacknowledged. It wasn't in the food service job description.
So over the last few decades, journalists, psychologists, sociologists and others adopted this term.
So without taking it from the outside spaces of food service and, and, and flight attendant, the flight attendant industry into the home.
Because in the home, emotional labor shows up similarly that it does as a flight attendant, you are very, you're very much wanting to give, give love and concern and kindness and tenderness.
And be there for the members of your family. It's the, it's the invisible work that is done usually by one member of the family and it's often the women.
Women are raised to notice everything around them like what has to be done and how to, how to make those around them feel safe and comfortable that their needs are met that there's clean, clean clothes and food on the table and, and all of the things that are really necessary.
For the running and the functioning of a household.
Aside from the physical work, laundry and shopping and all of that, it's the, it's the invisible work that I would define as, as emotional labor.
So if I'm hearing you correctly, emotional labor is caregiver.
But there are some caregivers that are getting paid to give care.
A emotional labor is invisible, unseen, unnoticed, unacknowledged.
It's what a lot of caregivers do, absolutely, but it's often unwaged. It's not in any job description.
So you have the job description of caregiver. You're bringing somebody into your homes. We work with a lot of the older adults in my company.
And, and so a caregiver is hired.
But that's a paid position. Right, right, right. Well, but you know, I, I, a paid position.
I'm sure with a lot, still a lot of emotional labor, right?
But the context we're talking about, because the family caregiver also includes the, the huge long list of the physical properties of household management.
So it's, it's both invisible and visible, both intangible, like you're thinking about what's coming up next.
And very tangible. We're at the grocery store.
So it's both, it's both. Yeah. And in your TED Talk, you say the physical work, the mental load, the emotional labor for women is never done.
That's a question for you. Why is that not the case for men?
Well, I, I, you know, for better ill, I have my, my PhD in women's history. This is how I answer the question.
Because I hear that I get that a lot. Because again, the work of household management, you don't need a, the only body part you need is your executive functions of the brain.
No other body part is required, except for, of course, breastfeeding and, and pushing a baby out.
So right after the American Revolution was fought in the late 1700s here in the US, the founders of the country saying, well, we're going to be growing this great republic. And we've got to have, we've got to have great leaders. And where are great leaders going to come from?
And, and they him and Han and one thing led to another that great leaders come from a well-ordered home.
And what, what historians coin is the term Republican motherhood?
And at that moment, the weight of the republic is on her shoulders to produce the next generation of leaders.
Oh, to produce. Okay. All right. I feel, I feel like you were starting to, to lose me when you were saying, the weight is on the women. And I thought, they thought that back then. No, to produce.
Right. The next generation of leaders.
Got to come from a well-ordered home.
Gotcha. You are listening to the empowered caregiver. And I am your host, Liza Helen Brandt. Today I am speaking with Dr. Regina Lark. And when we come back, we will learn what it takes within a household to have a happier marriage.
So go get your spouses and join us in just a few.
You are listening to the empowered caregiver. And I am your host, Liza Helen Brandt. Today I am talking with Dr. Regina Lark, author of Emotional Labor.
Why women's work is never done and what to do about it. She also has the podcast, the emotional labor podcast, which I highly recommend.
So Regina, so many questions, so little time on your website. I'm going to get to the happy marriage part, but I'm going to stay focused here.
I had one question for you before we went into break. And that was on your website, ReginaLark.com.
You have a list of things that you present on or presented on. And one of the topic was the emotional labor of the perpetual ask.
If I've asked you once, I've asked 100 times, and now I'm a nag, right? What is it about the ask that turns? Can you please put your cup in the dishwasher into a full blown argument?
Can you expand on that?
Liza, honestly, I don't get that. I don't, it is beyond me why two adults living together with love and shared responsibilities.
I don't understand how one person can really ignore the request of another person, because putting a cup in the dishwasher typically is not an unreasonable request.
You went, thank you. That's requested a lot. And again, I have come to know that, say it's women who there's a wife is, honey, can you put your cup in the dishwasher?
Cup doesn't go in the dishwasher. Oh, oh, I don't know if I had asked, yeah, I heard you, you know what I mean? It could become really stupid right away.
And one of the things that I hear within couples is, let's see if I can, let me frame this.
So it will be important to her to get the kitchen cleaned up right after dinner. That's an important, that's a value to her.
Okay, and it's need value to the other adult in the house.
I'm following you like way more than I want to be able to follow you, but I'm right there.
So it's, how is it that these two people who really love each other?
Because if it's, if it's, if it's a value to one person and the other person doesn't care, then make that your value to, because no harm no foul.
It's nice and neat. It's nice to walk into a clean kitchen in the morning. I mean, those things are nice and they're appreciated.
And your day can start off without cussing the person who was supposed to do the dishes.
So, so when it doesn't matter at all, they could care less whether it gets loaded in the morning or in that, or after dinner.
If that person could, if the husband could care less, then why don't you care more about how she feels?
Then take that over to a more caring economy.
Think of being more caring about how your wife feels about, about putting the cup in the dishwasher.
It's, it's no skin off your nose. It doesn't make you any less of a person.
Everybody uses cups. Everybody uses the sheets. Everybody uses the towels.
This is a, you know, you manage the household together.
So, right.
So, again, I'm always so perplexed when I hear, put the cup in the dishwasher, becomes an argument after a while.
And I think, well, what the heck is marriage?
I mean, it's like, well, why do people live together?
If they have arguments about the cups in the dishwasher, I don't understand that.
But I do, I do know that this is, this happens in a lot of homes.
And, and so, how do you ameliorate that?
It, it does. And, you know, we could do a whole show on, put your cup in the dishwasher.
I think, my wheels are spinning in all sorts of directions right now.
One, I said before we went into commercial break, go get your spouses.
And why the heck didn't I get mine? Because he needs to be hearing this.
And two, I'm thinking about this because this is a fight that's gone in in our house.
I've been married for 21 years, a bazillion times.
And I'm trying to think of what the pushback is.
And I kind of think of it. And I'm kind of determining at the same time, do I even want to go there?
But I'll let you just touch on it.
Okay, you said, if I value a clean kitchen, and I ask my husband to help me tidy up the kitchen.
And he says, no, I don't care if it's cleaner or, or, or not.
And I say, well, it's a value to me.
So if you love me, then I wouldn't put a file on it.
And I think we have to have real and loving and kind and open and transparent communication with each other.
It's, it's, it's, you know, I don't know.
It's, it's asking a husband being able to ask his wife.
I want to hear more about that. Why is that a value?
Tell me more about that. I mean, having these loving, kind, open communications.
Also, the other thing I heard you say is he's helping you tidy up.
We're not talking about help. We're not talking about tidying.
We want someone to take ownership of cleaning the kitchen after dinner.
Thank you.
I, I, I, so there's that too.
No, no, I need this. I need, I need you.
I trust me. I need you.
So, uh, okay.
I'm also thinking and I don't want to spend a lot of time on it.
But I feel like if I'm thinking of it, there's got to be other people listening, thinking of it too, right?
Uh, and that is what if I get from my husband?
Well, don't try to make your values, my values.
What do you say to that?
Honestly, I don't know what kind of conversations you've had before this.
I, I don't know why he would even question it.
I really don't. I, it's, it's like, this is something I value.
I want to help you understand why I value it.
I want us to be harmonious.
I also don't want to be the person that's doing all this damn work because it's a lot of work.
One quick and dirty experiment that couples who, who are really struggling with this,
go into separate rooms and write down everything you each do in the house, everything.
And then in loving and gentle and kind tones, compare lists.
See what could be off, it could be taken off the list, see what could be moved to another list.
And if you can do this with love and kindness, do it in front of a good mental health professional.
Yeah, I hear you.
You know what, I still have so many more questions.
Do you have a few, do you have a few minutes to stick around?
Sure.
All right, because we still didn't get to the creating happy marriage and what your advice is there.
And that works out perfect because it now gives me enough time to go get my husband.
The whole family will be back to hear you in just a few minutes.
Oh dear.
You are listening to the empowered caregiver show.
And I am your host, Eliza Helen Brandt.
Today I am talking with Dr. Regina Lark, author of Emotional Labor.
Why a woman's work is never done and what to do about it.
So two more questions for you that I just can't let you leave without asking.
So in one of your podcasts, you say, are you said something to the effect?
If there was more gender equity and marriages, there would be less divorce.
Regina, I know as obvious as the statement sounds, there's going to be some pushback from men saying,
how no more housework is not what's going to make my marriage better.
And I'm also willing to bet that there are some women out there who are thinking, oh man,
if I had to deal with my husband being part of managing the house and kids, that's going to drive me to drink.
So can you explain this concept to the skeptics because I absolutely agree with you?
If a wife doesn't want her husband's hands on household management, who cares?
I don't know. If she doesn't want, again, if this is not a problem in the marriage,
then don't knock the boat.
If she doesn't want, if she has expressed a desire to create more equity at home,
if that is something that she wants to do for whatever reason, either to advance herself professionally,
or to have more downtime, it really doesn't matter.
If she wants to share household management, then I want her husband to want that too.
That's good. And you know, I had to, I had to think about this again,
a little bit, my wheels are spinning in all sorts of directions, that for me,
to use myself is an example. When I make that statement,
oh man, getting my husband involved in all of this, that seems like a nightmare.
That seems like a bad, bad, bad idea. It's not that I don't want the help.
Here's where I'm stuck at. My identity is tied up in doing this.
So what do you have to say when a sorry soul like myself sits down in your chair?
I would, I would encourage you to re-evaluate identity. What does it mean to, what does that mean?
Because here, I would be hearing two things. One, you really want to share the burden
of household management. So clearly it's not tied to every, every particle of your identity
because you have the thought you want to share it.
Right. I mean, I think that goes back to just like the generations of programming.
It's not that, that I like to do laundry.
I just had an argument with my son the other day, my 17 year old son about laundry.
And I said, can you make the connection between me giving birth to you and me liking to do your laundry?
Because I'm not, I'm not getting it here. But I think it's that generations of right.
This is what women's women do. This quote unquote woman's work.
So when I'm handing it over to my, to my husband, sometimes I struggle with that
because I feel like, oh, that's my, I need to be making the birthday cake.
I need to be doing the, and, and I'm not saying it's, it's right.
Like I messed up or Gina, I need your help to save me because it's not right.
It's, no, my husband should be doing half of this stuff, right?
Well, but again, it's, it's, it's, it's, it doesn't come out of avoid.
There's got to be a family conversation about this.
When, when you write down all the things that each person is doing in the household,
we've got to make the invisible work of household labor visible.
Right. We have to, we have to, we have to help our families.
I mean, again, I'm so tired of saying women have to help families.
Women have to help men understand this. I get tired of saying that because it's like, come on.
We're adults. If you see, step in and partner with your spouse.
So I don't, you know, on the one hand, is it our responsibility to teach them what they need to do to partner with us?
Or do we just send them into therapy and say go learn how to partner with me?
I mean, I don't know what those solutions are.
I know that there's got to be conversation. I know that there's got to be love.
I know that we have to make the invisible work of household management visible as visible as we can.
And, you know, good, good question. Do you send them off to therapy? Do you teach them yourself?
I would say this, and this is where, you know, I am learning and growing as we speak.
I didn't realize this would turn into such a therapy session, but it's probably why I've been so darn excited to talk to you for so long.
Is we also need to be teaching our children, and I have two boys, and we need to be raising our, our boys in such a fashion that the,
that this isn't a conversation, a battleground, you know what I mean?
It's kind of they go into relationships with it being a given.
Yeah, yeah.
So lesson learned.
I'm learning so much.
You're pushing your son up for real life.
Oh, and, you know, he, you know, when it's so much to say about.
I know, I know, right? I know. And, and if my husband thinks that his wife is going to do his laundry forever, good luck.
Good luck with that, pal.
You know what, I could stand this topic forever, but I've got some more guests that I am waiting to speak with.
And I have one last question.
Again, super huge question. Two minutes to answer it. Good luck.
But I just want to shift gears a little bit because November is national family caregiver's month.
And each year a new theme is created this year's theme is hashtag caregivers connect this theme focuses on the importance of caregivers staying connected.
I say this myself frequently, you know, caregivers really need a tribe for their own emotional well being.
And under your past presentations on your website, you have listed presentation that you did uplift and elevate reimagining the sisterhood.
And the description says women's bodies and brains are being crushed by the weight of emotional labor.
And we think we're the only ones experiencing the heaviness of it all.
Virginia makes the case for reimagining our sisterhood and why developing these relationships can be so damn powerful.
Wow, I love the sound of that. Can you tell me a little bit more?
I truly believe that women ought to be each other's greatest cheerleaders and supporters.
I think that we live with a historical myth that we're in competition with each other and we are not.
We understand we communicate. I taught to a lot of women who are raising children on their own.
And some of them don't have any family support around them. So I encourage them to create their own sisterhood connect with other women in their situations learn how to barter with each other by houses together.
We live more communally with each other instead of siloed and feeling like we're really alone in doing this.
We are alone when we're by ourselves doing all the work of household management and caregiving and in the myriad tasks that go along with that.
In the 1950s, it sounds kind of silly, but women, women got together every afternoon for coffee clutches.
Now, I'm sure that there was vodka involved also, but it was connection and togetherness and getting away from the isolation of household management.
We continue to call it women's work for some reason.
And I think that's where husbands kind of get stuck because they weren't raised to notice what women are raised to notice.
They just weren't. I think where I get kind of is if she says it more than once.
How is it that that doesn't become part of how they now do things? You know, she's expressed anything beyond.
Let's partner with this and he doesn't follow suit. That's the part I don't get.
Yeah, well, there's so many, there's so many things that we aren't, we aren't taught, we're taught, we're not taught gender equity.
Yeah, at least we should be instilling it a lot more. We're not talking, we're not taught on how to have successful, successful, easy for me to say, relationships.
I mean, there's so many things that should be taught in schools, but yet another topic that we could spend hours on.
But I want to thank you, Regina, personally, you've helped me and you raised my level awareness.
You helped me point out some things that I need to do to raise sons that get this out of the, out of the gate.
And there's just so much more that I want to, that I could talk to you about and I hope that I can have you on again in the future.
Sure, thank you for letting me join you today.
Yes, have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Okay, back at you.
All right, take care.
And next we are going to be joined by, excuse me, with Chaos Riddle and Chaos, who did you bring with me?
Who, who did you bring with you? I'm sorry.
It's just me tonight.
Just you. Okay, sounds, sounds good. You probably missed the beginning of the show, but I was saying that I am actually doing this from our cabin up north.
So I'm having kids walk in front of me. I'm having a dog saying why haven't you fed me? What is wrong with you?
So a lot of, a lot of distraction going on.
But thank you for, for hanging in there with, with me.
I thought it would be something that, that you might be interested in hearing.
I don't know you at all, but what do you think? What did you, what did you think about what, what Regina had to say?
When she was talking about how women need to come together, boost each other up, support each other.
I wholeheartedly agree. I worked for the city for 24 years in a pretty much male dominant job.
And the few women that were there, we definitely supported each other. And whenever a new woman would come into the job, we would let her know, you know, you come to us.
If you have problems, we'll help you. We'll help you take care of it. If it means the guy's got to go to the landfill. No, I'm just kidding.
Well, you know, and it was such a, it was such a good setup for having you on next. And I don't even think I said why you were here, but you are here for women helping women and their families and their children.
And you are chaos riddle from Santas without chimneys. Can you tell me a little bit more about your organization, how people can get involved, and what it is that you do when we come back in just a few moments.
Sure.
You
This is the empowered caregiver and I am your host, lies Helen Bran doing a live show today from our cabin right outside of Plainfield, Wisconsin.
The wonderful home of Edgine on that note, let's just switch gears to something much more meaningful.
Can I have with me right now, cast riddle, who runs, is that fair to say? Are you in charge of Santas without chimneys?
Hello, for the most part, yes. Okay. Tell us more about it and how people can get involved.
Well, if we're going to do that, you're going to get a little tour as I speak.
We are as ruthless as our children. We never have any idea of where we're going to be. So this year, I was actually concerned.
And if you ever heard of Occupy Madison in the tiny homes, yes, that's where this stem from.
And I went back to them and they have a third village site, or this will be the third village site.
And so they gave us this space for this year.
So up on this wall, you're going to see a ring, a paper chain after the boxes, pretty fast looking.
And it just keeps going and going. So each single ring represents one homeless child in the Madison schools. Now that's not including their siblings that may not be in school.
You can see it just wraps and goes and goes and goes. So chaos. So those that aren't watching on on live.
And even myself, I'm watching you as you give me this virtual tour of these rings. And they go on and on your right. I can't even wrap my head around it. How many are we talking?
Do you have over a thousand homeless children within the city of Madison? Do I have that cracked? Yes.
We have 15. It could keep going, but I'll stop.
And what do you do to help them? And what can we do to help them?
So what we do is we work with with tap, which is the transitional educational program. They are the social workers in the schools.
They pretty much figure out which children are ruthless. We prefer to say highly mobile or ruthless.
And they find out whether these kids are going to get anything at all for Christmas. So these are kids that are going to get nothing.
They're parents. We're not able to make it to toys for tots. They've outgrown toys for tots.
Various things like that. So what we do is we find out their three wishes. We tried to fulfill all three wishes.
It's not always possible. They're wishes. Sometimes they're asking for the moon. It's impossible.
So we do take teens or the hardest to shop for. So we do take teens. And a lot of them are what we call unaccompanied.
So they're on their own. It may be for.
It may be. Who knows. There's all different kinds of reasons why they may be on their own.
We kind of really want to get them on the right foot. So we will package things a little bit different.
But they still get three gifts. We try to throw more like food cards, Adam, things like that.
Every child gets a brand new blanket. Thank you, pensies. Every child gets books from Madison reading project.
And we wrap and we deliver with Santa's.
How other people can help. So we always need help sponsor a kid. Go to our website, which is Santa's without chimneys.org.
You can find us on Facebook.
If you can sponsor at least one kid and get one wish, you've helped us out.
We have dropped that. So it's all over the city. You can drop just various items in there.
And then if we, if a kid doesn't get sponsored, we shop off ourselves.
Yes.
Go ahead.
If you like to organize, come in and organize. We got something for everybody here.
All right. So if money is tight for for yourself, but you want to get involved, there are other ways to get involved.
We're going to run up on time. I have one more person that wants to speak.
And I apologize that I had to cut you short as I was fishing up with with Regina.
But I want you to get the website out there one more time.
And I encourage everyone from around the state to go to the website.
I've got to assume that you can just make a financial donation on the website.
If that's if you're, you know, listening way up at the tip top of the state.
Yep. One hundred percent volunteers. Nobody's paid almost all the money goes right back to the kids.
And that's santa's with us.
Santa's without chimneys dot org. I will make sure to get that up on my social media as well as all of civic media so we can get this out to the entire state.
Thank you so much for joining me today and for the awesome amazing work that you do.
Thank you for having us on. I appreciate it. Yeah. Take care.
And next next I we have just a minute to go.
So I'm going to set my next guest up for my next show and I'm going to drag him by his ear to come back and join me next week.
I can absolutely do that because I'm his mom.
So Kaden.
I want you to let everyone know what you are going to be talking about next week because what I wanted you to talk about today.
We're going to run out of time.
So let listeners know where you go to school and then.
Well, we'll start with there. Where do you go to school, kid?
You where do you go to school?
I go to edgewood college.
You go to edgewood college and so what I did is I reached out to edgewood college and I said November is national family caregivers month.
You go to a program at edgewood called the cutting edge program.
It is for students with disabilities.
And so all of those students have caretakers, caregivers in their life.
Most likely people that will always be there to support them in some in some little way.
I know that you're all learning to live independently.
That's why we have you go there and make friendships and learn how to live on on your own.
But there are people that help you, your parents.
So what I asked is for the students at cutting edge program.
If they could write a thank you letter, a thank you note to their mom or dad or whoever it is that takes care of them.
And they did and we've got some really amazing responses.
So I asked Caden since he goes to edgewood and since he knows these people to read these these thank you these shout outs to parents.
And I went and talked to darn much and I ran out of time.
So I am going to have you join join me next week to read these off.
But you have two seconds.
What's the best thing about your mom?
The best thing about my mom is that she looks after me and she's pushing me to be independent and she's awesome.