Hey, Matt Rothschild here with another episode of the Wisconsin Forward podcast on the Civic
Media Radio Network.
In the wake of the amazing No Kings rallies on October 18th, I want to explore the importance
and the utility of nonviolent protest with you.
To start off, I grabbed off the internet, what Timothy Snyder of On Tierney had to say
about this on the morning of that rally.
He was outside when he recorded it, so the first few seconds are a little windy, but bear
with him.
It's just under a minute long.
We show those around us that we don't think this is normal.
Number four, practically nonviolent resistance, nonviolent opposition works to hold off
the worst.
Number five, politically, because by being at a protest, you're cooperating with others,
making a step towards more cooperation, towards finding a way out to something better.
I also wanted to share with you what Ruth Ben Gia, author of Strongman, had to say that
morning in her one minute ode to protest, so please take a listen.
So, I wanted to let everybody know that however you are protesting peacefully or supporting
those who are out in the streets, you are observing one of the fundamental principles
of resistance, and that is to use the tools and spaces available to you while you have
them, because you don't know if they'll be available tomorrow.
But as protests that goes on in full on dictatorships, such as Belarus and China, tells us there's
always space for action.
What we are also doing with these community-based local protests is turning areas that have
been made into sites of terror and brutality into spaces of solidarity and unity, and this
is a very important lesson that we determine the climate, the moral climate, the psychological
emotional climate of the spaces that we inhabit.
These are our spaces, and so we are turning out in numbers to reclaim those spaces from
state security forces that are brutalizing us.
And finally, each one of you protesting is encouraging others to do the same, and remember
that in this case, we are, it is a protest movement that is building, and what matters is
that more and more people turn out every time.
We have the momentum.
We are saying that this is not who we are, this is not the America that we believe in, and
that we know.
Now, with that table setting, I'd like to bring on my first guest, Carlene Betchen, one
of the best grassroots organizers in Wisconsin, who helped put together the big No Kings, Rayleigh
and Madison on October 18th.
Carlene, welcome back to the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
Thanks, Madd, it's always nice to see you.
Great to see you, great to hear your voice.
So you are one of the organizers of the No Kings rally.
Why are big protests so important?
That's a great question, because people ask me that all the time, so I'm actually
prepared.
Social proof.
We are stuck in our houses, stuck in our jobs.
Many, many, many people just scrolling through stuff that feels endless and mind-boggling
and confusing, and they become more and more and more isolated from the people around
them.
They don't know who they can talk to about the things that they're feeling.
You come out for a rally, you take somebody you know with you, and then you see some other
people you know, and maybe a lot of people you don't know, but there's this enormous energy
that says, I am not alone.
There are other people that are feeling the way I'm feeling.
I can do something about this.
This is not just me feeling this, and there is nothing like that sort of affirmation that
I'm not crazy, that I'm not alone, and I have power.
Yeah, it was great to be at the protests, and you mentioned the scrolling, I know Judge
Everett Mitchell talked a lot about that, and his phenomenal speech here in Madison.
If you're listening to this, you should pause and go look up Everett Mitchell's talk.
Yeah, that's obvious.
I think the note King's rally, it was tremendous.
But yes, this sense of overcoming isolation and not being alone and despondent, because
that's how you feel if you're just alone trying to take in what's happening.
I've had a couple calls from people over the last two weeks who I used to know in my previous
jobs who just wanted to have lunch with me, because they have no one to talk to.
And I think that is part of the issue, and when you go to the protest, you got a lot of
people to talk to.
Yes, you do.
And the energy is so positive.
I mean, the creative signs, the costumes, everything is just so wonderful.
We had some of that back in the protests against Act 10, and you're seeing a lot more of
it now.
And it's just wonderful to behold.
Now, there were protests not just in Madison and Milwaukee, but all over the state.
How many protests were there, actually?
I didn't get that right.
86 protests in the state of Wisconsin, 138,500 people across just our state showed up.
I don't know if you went to Stoten before you came up here.
Yeah, I heard that there were almost 1,000 people in Stoten.
Yeah, it looked like about 75, 750 people in Stoten.
Actually, I started the day in Manona.
Manona had one at nine o'clock.
I went from Manona to McFarland to Stoten.
Just went down 51 South and to take in.
Because I think smaller protests in towns and cities that aren't Madison or Milwaukee,
the big ones are as important as the big ones.
Because really, then neighbor to neighbor, you're doing politics.
Right.
Exactly.
People see you, who know you.
Next time they see it, the supermarket, they're going to say, hey, I saw you at the protest
or why were you at the protest or, and then it's just throwing to see other people who
you didn't know were on your side.
I was at the McFarland protest and a guy we call mustache Mike in our poker game was there.
I had no idea he was on the same page as I was.
Yeah, that's a really good example of here's somebody you know, and you don't know
if you can talk to them about these things, right?
And then you see them there and it's like, oh, wow, we have this in common.
And now we can do some things together about it.
That's what these protests are about.
Yeah, I thought that was really neat to see him there and we had a nice conversation.
We never talked politics before.
A lot of people in our current game are right-wing, so that's one of the reasons we don't.
But yeah, it was great to see people I knew who are already committed to fighting authoritarianism
and then see people I didn't know who were in the fight with me and that was so encouraging.
And we need the encouragement because just sitting home and watching the news, watching
cable TV or taking the news in on the internet is just debilitating, paralyzing.
Yeah, I think I've talked to you about this before on your show that I've had to just
really be conscious about the kinds of news I take in and how much of it I take in
because it is overwhelming.
So there's sources like this one.
There's substack with all kinds of really good people writing there.
Heather Cox Richardson, of course, she has her thing that she sends out every day, but
also Jen Rubin on the contrarian and other folks who are, I'm finding myself more and
more agreeing with Paul Krugman.
Can you believe that?
Yeah.
I was like, okay, I didn't think we had much in common, but he even commented.
He went to the New York City protest and commented on how affirming it was and how much he
just really loved seeing people there who were joyful and excited, but also really angry.
And I think that's one of the things that is a mobilizer versus despairing, getting angry
about things and saying, I got to often do something about this and getting out and doing
it in concert with other people.
Yeah.
Anger is a good energy source and we need to harness it in a nonviolent way in our protest.
So how did you and the other organizers pull off these incredible rallies?
Well, first of all, there are three or four of the groups that this is our third mass rally.
So we did hands-off in April.
We did the first snow kings in June and this is the third one.
So that's organeary progresses, which I'm part of, Badger Collective, which Badger Collective
is doing a lot of really good kind of mass movement things.
And they know a lot about safety and security and how to pull off a rally.
And then two indivisible groups, indivisible Madison East and indivisible Dane County,
the Raging Grantees were part of our planning this time and also the DSA.
So we had a group that met on a regular basis and fortunately this time we were, we have
more time, each time we've had more time.
And so that's been really helpful.
So we've learned what we're good at and we've kind of delegated ourselves into those jobs.
And it's not without frustration because anytime you work collaboratively across the
groups, you're going to have some frayed nerves now and then.
But at the end of the day, we're all on the same team.
And so we're taking this week off, we're going to have a pot luck next week and celebrate
and debrief.
And so that'll be good.
I'm all for celebrating our victories.
And did you, did those organizations connect with the local organizations in all those cities
and towns across Wisconsin or was that spontaneous?
No, no, that was spontaneous.
So indivisible has a weekly mass call on Thursday afternoons.
And so once that, once they along with move on and working families party, other organizations
decided went on the October 18th date, then they made resources available.
And so there were calls to help with that, all kinds of resources on the indivisible
website for folks.
And so one of the things they said early on is if you have to travel an hour to a protest,
you should have one of your own.
Oh, I like that.
So I think that that has been really encouraging for a lot of folks.
And then there is an organizer for indivisible who works with Wisconsin and Illinois.
And she's fabulous, she's Liz Hayes, she's a rim walkie.
And so she's been super supportive as well.
One question I have on these big rallies is how do we get the people who are attending
those rallies to get more involved afterwards, either to join organizations like indivisible
or legal women voters or ordinary progressive, or ordinary progressive.
I mean, you had that little muddy group.
That's my group.
The mighty group just south of where I live.
I live in Oregon.
So yeah, how do we get people to join up and get more involved because it's going to
take more than just attending these big rallies?
Right.
Yeah, you're exactly right.
So one of the things that we did this time, I think better than in the past, is that
we had little slips of paper and big posters with a QR code that goes to a link tree that
had all of the organizations that helped sponsor some immediate actions that needed to
be taken, one on anti-semitism bill in the state legislature had a hearing yesterday,
yesterday, that would really shut down free speech.
So asking people to submit comment also on the special education cut.
So immediate actions people could take organizations they could get involved with, and then also
the other sponsoring organizations.
So a lot of ways that people can sign up.
And then there were folks just walking around, signing people up to do things, so that was
good as well.
Yeah, we need that.
I mean, people are hungry to do things.
And then there's another group of people who just attended the rally and didn't know
that there are other places that they can poke into.
Absolutely.
And we need to grab those people.
Because we need to build this movement bigger and bigger all the way down.
Trump of course and his mouthpiece is called these rallies.
I don't even say it.
Don't even say it.
Because they're so wrong.
They're so wrong.
Why are they wrong?
Because just as you and I said, people were joyful, they were excited, there was a lot
of camaraderie, they're angry, yeah, angry for sure they're angry, but these are people
who are the most patriotic among us, right?
There were a lot of American flags, that's for sure.
There were a big one right down the middle of East Washington Avenue, got a great aerial
shot of that.
And it had McFarland and Stoden and Menona, there were lots of American flags.
Yeah, yeah.
So these are people who love our country, who want democracy to work, a multiracial,
a generational, multilingual, multireligious, or a religious, democracy that is not run
with an authoritarian fist shutting down anything that doesn't agree.
That's fascism.
Yeah, that's where we're facing fascism, authoritarianism, call what you want.
It's not democracy.
It is.
Exactly.
It is not democracy.
Now, Trump has threatened to crack down on what he calls far left groups, and including
in that definition, he mentioned by name, Indivisible, which is crazy, because Indivisible
is a pretty vanilla group, and I don't think Ezra and Leo would like for you to call
them.
No, I admire the work they're doing, but they are not far left crazy groups at all, and
they're consciously engaging in non-violence themselves and teaching non-violence and pledging
non-violence.
Yes, they are.
They are.
They're somehow a threat to anybody, is kind of a joke, because they're a really important
part of this mass movement against Trump, but I just wonder, you were working with people
from Indivisible, did they feel like that they were under threat from the federal government?
Well, I think we're kidding ourselves if we don't all feel under threat.
All of us in our freedoms are being threatened.
And so, you know, right after Trump was elected, ordinary progressives had a, okay, what are
we going to do now, meeting, and one of the things that came up was, do you really think
we should do this?
Do you really think we should put our pictures out there?
Do you really think we should?
And it was like, hell yeah, excuse me, but look around this room, we were all middle-aged,
middle-class white people.
And even still fear was in the room.
Oh, yeah, fear was in the room.
And I think for many people in the room, it was the first time they'd felt real fear.
And my response to that was, if we can't do it, how the hell can we expect our black
and brown brothers and sisters to do this?
How can we expect immigrant folks to step up and be at the lead?
This is the time, this is the time, when we have to step up, we white people have to step
up and be brave.
You know, it's funny, you mentioned a, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm just, you jogged
a memory in my mind.
I was interviewing Representative Darren Madison here on one of these podcasts and I asked
him a similar question about fear.
He said, you know, I'm a black man in America, I've built fear every day of my life.
Exactly, exactly.
So, yeah, I mean, I think fear is a piece of it for sure, but for me, at least, being afraid
pisses me off.
I don't, it just makes me angry to think that I should be afraid.
It makes me angry to think that anybody should be afraid.
And the angrier I get, the more motivated I am.
So yeah, was there fear, sure, there's fear, and I think it's time to be courageous.
Absolutely.
Especially if you're not in immigrant undocumented here in the United States or even documented
or a Latino citizen in this country, you're, you know, able to get...
If you look, if you are not white, let's just be real, if you are not white in this country
right now.
Because the Supreme Court has basically said, you can be profiled and stopped, maybe even
arrested, for no other reason than being not white.
Yeah, grab.
There's something really screwed up about that.
Absolutely.
Grab putting a van by someone with a mask on and getting a arm.
Don't even have to identify themselves.
That's crazy.
It's like being in Pinochet's chili right now.
But yeah, for white folks, especially white folks of privilege, I mean, it's time to step
up.
And...
Past time, I'd say.
Yeah.
Long past time.
I do see some critics.
They're always critics of protests, some critics of the No Kings protests were saying,
you know, there's no platform being put forward, there's no vision.
How do you respond to that?
Wow.
I would say they can't see.
We are not going to spell out specific things because, as I said, you know, just in our
little group that was organizing, we have a diversity of opinions and we are not going
to agree on everything.
Now was not the time for us to quibble about what we're for and what we're against and
be purest about who can be part of our movement and who can't.
That is not now.
But we have a common, I don't want to say this word, but I'm going to, we have a common
enemy.
And it's MAGA.
Trump is just the figurehead.
This is so much bigger than him.
Oh, it's true.
And let's talk about Stephen Millio.
Let's talk about Void.
Scott Besson, who was supposed to be the adult in the room.
Yeah.
He'd down the line, Cache Patel, Bondy, you know, it's crazy what's happening.
And it's part of a long planned, strategically worked out white nationalist movement.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
And Trump is at the front of it and in service to it and it's not going to go away over
now.
No, it's not going to go away.
It's not going to go away.
And so he does things like tear down the East Wing of the White House distraction.
I mean, I'm sorry that that happened.
I really am sorry that that happened.
I mean, it's such a vulgarian.
It's not, I mean, plow up the Rose Garden.
Okay.
Fine.
That's not really what's happening.
It's over here where people are being snatched off the street where peaceful protests
are being exploited and called, called violent to use the Insurrection Act to send in troops
all along.
That's common too.
Well, you know, he backed off on Chicago, which to me is proof that our power is bigger
than he thinks it is.
And the pushback is bigger than that.
I mean, the pushback has been impressive.
People in the streets, you know, confronting ICE nonviolently, but just getting in front
of their trucks, getting in their faces, and telling them to go home that we don't want
you here.
We don't want to hear.
Yeah.
We don't need you here.
Yeah.
I mean, we need more of that.
That's really courageous and great.
Well, what's next to the No Kings movement?
Well, what's next is people, as you said, getting involved, staying involved, taking
action, stepping back and breathing when you need to, but not stopping.
We have to keep pushing forward.
This is not going to go away just one protest at a time.
The momentum is building and people feel it.
And so I would say, you know, make sure that you are speaking truth.
This is my type Robert Reich in his sub-stack this week had his column was, what do we
do now?
He has 10 things to do.
I put it in the OIP newsletter that's coming out tomorrow because he spells it out.
And I think all the things that he says are things that we can do.
And we have more agency in Wisconsin than many people do.
Why is that?
Well, we have fairer maps than we're going to be for.
And you worked your hard out of that.
I did.
And it's still going on.
We don't have a permanent solution.
So the other rally I was part of last week was on Thursday when we, the League of Women
Voters ad hoc redistricting committee and the Fair Maps Coalition actually physically delivered
our draft proposal for independent redistricting commission to legislators.
We did hearings, community hearings all around the state after two years of research and
writing this draft proposal.
We took it to Voters, we got input, we made adjustments, we've got a draft proposal,
we took it to the Capitol on Thursday.
We announced it, Senator Jeff Smith spoke as well as representatives Deb Andraka and
Francesca Hong, a double chrome miller from the League, me, and you sell a flores from
the Fair Maps Coalition.
And then the volunteers who were there took those hard copies and delivered them.
So we're waiting for an LRB, which is a legislative reference bureau number.
So we can start to say to legislators, sign on to this, support it.
So we have an independent redistricting commission after 2030, you know, for the 2030 census.
So there's one place we have agency to keep our maps from being gerrymandered again after
the next census.
Also we have split government here.
So things can't just be rubber stamped.
We're not Texas, right?
The governor can't decide that he's going to redraw the congressional maps to help Trump
keep a majority.
And we also have a more balanced state legislature that allows us to really push on the things
that we care about.
Just this week, mom's demand action was at the Capitol, and they had a really big rally.
So it, you know, I mean, there are places that we can push that other states don't have
the same sort of leverage.
And we need to take advantage of that every opportunity we can.
And then what about you?
I've been to about four retirement parties for you.
You can't spell retired.
No, I can't.
I'm my father's daughter.
Don't know how to stop.
He was a preacher.
Yes, he was.
And he was president of North Carolina Common Cause for 13 years and very much involved with
witness for peace went all over the world with witness for peace.
So yeah, and Habitat, they had to retire him.
They told him a lie.
They said, we can't ensure you anymore.
And mostly it was that he was over 80 and climbing up on ladders and they were like,
Sam, get the hell down from there.
Yeah.
So you'll be doing it when you're 82.
Well, I actually hope I learn before that.
Well, I really admire all the work you do, Carlene, and thanks again for being my guest
here on Wisconsin Forward.
Absolutely.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's great to see you.
Great to hear from you.
Just me now is Earl Ingram, host of the what's going on podcast on civic media.
Earl M. Seed, the no Kings rally in Milwaukee on October 18th.
Earl Ingram, welcome back to the Wisconsin Forward podcast.
It's been a while.
Listen, I'm honored and privileged Matt, I have a great deal of admiration and respect
for you and your work and the kind of work you do and sort of have this privilege and
honor to grace your always once again, it means a lot.
And when you reached out to me, I was, again, more than honored and privileged and thankful
to have the opportunity.
Right back at you, Earl.
I'm grateful for it as well.
I saw some footage.
I wasn't in Milwaukee.
I was here in Dane County, went to four rallies here, but I saw some footage of the
Milwaukee rally and it looked like a civic media reunion up there.
You had Maggie Dawn speaking and Angela Lang, who's a frequent contributor, that must
have been fun.
Yeah, you know, it really reminded me, I'm 72, I'll be soon be 72 years old.
So it reminded me of the Vietnam rallies and the civil rights marches and rallies and
really to have the opportunity, I was too young to really be a part of it, those things
other than just tagging along, but to be able to be at the heart of this meant enough
a lot.
Well, why do it mean so much to you?
Well, well, because when, if you are around doing those years, it's judging by the color
of your hair.
Ooh, don't get that.
Nothing else.
I would say that you were around at those times.
It was a time when our nation came together, so to speak, and realized the importance of
a collective.
And because of those times, you and I and our generation were able to, to really
have the kind of lives that we were able to live.
And I really thought at that point in time, foolishly, that those things that we fought
for and were fought for by generations before us, that they would remain that way.
And now, I realize I've learned that, you know, all of those things, Bill of Rights,
Constitution, Declaration of Independence, all those things have to be fought for generationally.
And this showed me that.
Yeah, I mean, everything seems to be on the chopping block right now.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, that's just crazy.
I mean, I'm glad my parents aren't around.
My dad fought against the Nazis in Germany.
My mom was active in the Civil Rights Movement.
I mean, the shocking thing about this moment, or one of the many shocking things, is that,
you know, everyone has a father or grandfather or for younger generations, a great grandfather,
who fought fascism.
And now fascism is here and Trump is going after the anti-fascists.
It's just a, it's a crazy world.
You know, Matt, not only is it a crazy world, the fact that he's only been there nine months
and barring some unforeseen circumstances, we've got three, four years.
And what these people have been able to do, Matt, that is so frightening, is they came in running.
And they put all these things in place inside of nine months.
And it gives them three years to cultivate it, to drill down and to tighten the screws.
And that's kind of where my biggest fear lies, Matt.
Not for you and I, because you and I have been able to live the American dream,
and those kinds of things, but for our grandchildren and great grandchildren,
I hate to even imagine what this is going to be.
Yeah, everything is up for grabs and on the line.
And that's why I think it was so important to have these mass rallies on October 18th.
You know, there are some people out there, though, who are cynics,
who say that protests don't matter, protest don't accomplish anything,
or folks who went to the anti-walker pro-labor protest in 2011 said,
look, we had 110,000 people out there didn't do damn things.
So why should I protest now?
How do you respond to cynics like that?
Well, I'm a person who believes that we're at a point in time, Matt,
where the only saving grace of the American people, politicians can't fix this now.
If we're sitting back waiting on democratic officials to fix this,
I'm sorry, the Calvary's not coming, it's the American people.
It's the rank and file American people out in the street,
because fascism has been defeated in other nations by exactly what we're talking about,
a sure force of the American people who say we've had enough of this,
we're not going to tolerate it, and it's going to take the American people
not just once every six months.
The American people are going to have to show that they are up to the task
and willing to state a course to change this.
You know, I think that's really important, this idea of sustained protests.
And I wanted you to reflect on the positive experience in Milwaukee in the late 1960s
when the NAACP Youth Council for 200 consecutive nights was out there protesting for fair housing.
Talk about that a bit.
Well, you know, it does go back to even during Dr. King and Selma,
and over 320 days, people refuse to catch the bus to work,
and they would walk miles, and the people were able to organize and move people
and get people to their jobs because the people came together and said we're not going to tolerate it.
Well, here in this city, and many people may not know this,
but Matt, I remember there was a guy here at Police Chief named Harold Breyer,
and people may not know it, but we had our own Bull Connor.
Milwaukee was called the Selma of the North,
and so as people mobilized and organized and led by Father James Gropi,
Catholic minister, who organized and who knew Dr. King and brought Dr. King to this city,
many times, and the people marched across the 20th Street by a duck,
and were met with rocks and eggs and stones and all sorts of things.
And of course, during those days, it was no violence.
Dr. King's marches were all about civil disobedience.
And so it was a horrible, horrible time in the history of our city.
And now you're looking at a time when we've got people at the helm of our government
who say, let's do a way with history.
We don't want to know about that horrific point in time
because it makes people feel bad.
Well, you know, those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.
I didn't say it, but the person who said it was 100% correct in that time is happening before us.
And we have, unlike folks in Germany or in Italy in the 1930s,
we have the luxury of seeing that history, studying that history, and learning from it,
and to resist is just such an immoral imperative at this point.
And I'm wondering what kinds of nonviolent protests you're envisioning.
One thing I have in my mind is economic is a general strike at some point
or people boycotting, you know, we saw what happened when Jimmy Kimmel was taken off the air
and Disney stock went down 5%.
I mean, maybe that's the only language those folks understand.
Well, you know, Matt, you want to think about being an old goat.
We've been around a block a few times.
And so when you look at what's transpiring in our nation right now,
this divide the people, we've seen this before.
And so this dividing of the American people, again, trying to divide us by race,
trying to divide us by social norms, trying to divide us by our religious beliefs,
all of those things that are transpiring and taking place in this country right now are all
by design. And I'll tell you, Matt, the biggest mistake I think that we're all making is,
we're looking at this one guy and we're looking at him, excuse my French, but it looks like a
buffoon and he sounds like one. And we're wondering how can he do all of this? He's not the person.
And because we look at it because he's the person we see on television,
he's the guy who's murmuring all that crazy stuff, it's the people behind him who've been organized
and working on this mat for decades. And they've been laying in the weight waiting for their
opportunity. And so their opportunity is now. And so they're not satisfied with a four-year run
with Donald Trump. The things that they have in store for you and I and American people,
a long term, Matt, they're for generations.
Yeah, you know, I'm remembering just last night I interviewed an author of Catherine
Stewart wrote a book called Money Lies and God about the decades-long preparation that the far
right in this country has laid down the foundation. They laid down for this Trump coup that's
happening right now. And yeah, you're absolutely right. It's been a long time in the making and Trump
is just the person at the tip of the spear here. And yet it is a fundamental question. I mean,
those folks don't want democracy. They don't want equal rights. They don't want civil rights. They don't
want sexual equality. They want to turn the clocks way, way back. And so that's what we're fighting
for right now. And I'm just wondering, you know, how are we going to be able to sustain and even
grow the level of process that we saw on October 18th? You know, you know, Matt, it reminded me
I was at the distinct privilege and honor to do a radio show from Capitol Hill.
And actually, right next door to the United States Supreme Court, when the Affordable Care Act
was being debated. After the United States Supreme Court, I was, I was, I think the only
non syndicated talk show host who was given that privilege and honor to be there. And I never
will forget walking through the throngs of what were they called? They were called
the Tea Party. Yeah. And so they were, they were in this park and my wife and I were walking
through and I saw all these people. And, and, and Matt, they were from your generation.
And they were a little bit older than me at the time, but they were there and they were protesting
and they wanted things to change. And they forced some changes in the Republican party.
You remember those things, right? Yeah. And I remember going to a Tea Party rally at the Capitol
here. I was doing some rebounds. I was with my reporters bad and people were there. And,
yeah, you could see the mobilization happening and those, those people weren't playing.
And, and, and, and I said all I had to say this. This, I've seen your, in my generation, back at it,
who many who decades ago, after century ago were out. And, and they've been, we've been sitting
on our couches and we've been enjoying our laurels and having lived a good life. We're now back on
the street. What, what I saw on last Saturday were people from your in my generation who have
seen this and know the inherent dangers of it. And so that's who this is. It's certainly been organized
by a younger group of people, but the masses of the people who are out here, I'm from your
in my generation. That bodes well. Are you upset that there weren't younger people there?
I think part of what is transpiring is to think that younger people understand the magnitude
of what is transpiring. My sons are 47, 46, 38. Hey, Matt, I guess that makes me an old goal. But,
but those generations, I, I try to make it through and navigate through things you and I didn't have
to go through. Right. They're trying to get a piece of the American dream. And so we've got my
belief is we have to fight this battle because it's the battle to fight. And as you and I,
you know, enter into an our generation interest towards the twilight, the baby boomers of our lives,
we've got to fight this battle for them. And whether they're there or not, this battle has to be
waged. And it has to be waged by those of us who know what's at stake, who knows, who know
what is transpiring in this country. Earl, what do you say to people who are scared that, you know,
I think a lot of the protests are going to get arrested or beat up by the cops or ICE.
So, so let me say this. And I said this on the stage. They said that there were going to be
Hamas supporters. They said that they're going to be criminals and they're going to be,
you know, Antifa's and Tifa's going to be there. And I look out amongst the crowd.
And I said, I don't see any criminals out here. And you know why? Because I don't see any billionaires.
Amongst the crowd. If we want to talk about criminals,
it happens to be people who don't understand that sharing the wealth of a nation
is the right thing and the moral thing to do. And to hoard it all as if it all belongs to you
is the wrong thing to do. Except our criminals. Those criminals weren't with those people who were
gathered. They would average every day, rank and file American. Who had the courage to show up?
Absolutely. Yeah. And the last thing, you know, I met that I want to say before,
you know, we, we, we part is I said that, I said that 57 years ago,
a man that I admired and still admired to this day and who I worked at patterning myself
after through service, Reverend Dr. Martin with the King said these words.
Somewhere I read of the of the right to freedom of speech, somewhere I read
about the rights to freedom of assembly, somewhere I read of the rights of the freedom of press,
somewhere I read that the beauty and the greatness of America is the right to protest for rights.
All of those things are being challenged right now as we speak. And so people have to understand
we've been here before, some of us. And there is no short victory. I know quick victories
is a protracted struggle. And so we got to put on our big boy pants and be ready.
Absolutely. That is one of my favorite passages from Dr. King. It was part of his speech that
he gave in Memphis the night before he was assassinated. Absolutely. And a lot of the media,
they just play the end where he says, you know, I've been to the Promised Land. I mean, I get there
with you, but I've seen the Promised Land, but they don't play that early part where he talks about
somewhere I read about our rights that are being violated. Earl England thing.
And we're facing that right now. Yeah, totally. And I'm so grateful you brought that quote forward
because it's not only a moving quote, but it's so relevant to what we're dealing with.
Today, I've been speaking with Earl Ingram. He's the host of the What's Going On podcast on civic media.
It's been great speaking with you again, Earl. Let's do it again.
As always, we're talking to you, my friend, until we meet again.
Absolutely. Hang in there.
Well, that's going to have to be it for this episode of the Wisconsin Forward podcast on the Civic
Media Radio Network. I'm Matt Rothschild and I want to thank our two guests, Curly Inbeshin
and Earl Ingram. I also want to thank my engineer and producer Dom Lee, who's always great to work
with. And I want to thank Sage Wilde of Civic Media for giving me this platform. But most of all,
I want to thank you for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of the Wisconsin Forward
podcast where we'll be discussing the fight back in the courts and where that leaves us. You'll
won't want to miss that one. Until then, take care.
