Hey, Matt Rothschild here and welcome to another episode of the Wisconsin Forward Podcast
on the Civic Media Radio Network.
In this episode, we're going to be talking about Donald Trump's demonization of the trans
community.
For anyone who's studied fascism, it's not a surprise.
Because along with being ultra-nationalist, and anti-immigrant, and anti-liberal, fascists
are also hyper-masculine.
And they scapegoat anyone who diverges from traditional sex roles.
You saw it with Hitler, you saw it with Mussolini, you see it with Putin, and now you see it
with Trump.
To get a sense of how this demonization is affecting folks here in Wisconsin, I've got
three guests for you today that I hope you'll listen to.
My first guest today is Abigail Sweats.
She's the executive director of Fair Wisconsin, the leading statewide organization that advocates
for the rights of LGBTQ plus individuals here in our state.
In full disclosure, she used to be president of the board of the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign
where I work for almost a decade.
So you'll forgive me if I refer to her as Abby, because that's what I've always called
her.
Abby Sweats, welcome to the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
Thanks so much for having me.
I would think it was weird if you didn't use Abby, so thank you for that.
But formally, the first name is Abigail, and if you want to look her up, Abigail Sweats
that's S-W-E-T-Z at Fair Wisconsin.
No, Abby, you've been at the home of Fair Wisconsin for just over a year now, and it's
been quite a year.
How are you holding up?
Wow, what a question that's started.
It has been a whirlwind of a year, but you know what?
I'm here.
Fair Wisconsin is fighting.
We've always been at the forefront of advancing and protecting these rights of LGBTQ plus
Wisconsinites.
I am proud to be leading that fight now.
And you know, I guess I'm just like, frankly, grateful to be doing really meaningful work.
I used to be a middle school teacher every day, and that classroom is the day that you
learn something and laugh and get to connect with incredible people and make meaning together.
And I worried a little bit when I left the classroom that I would never find that again,
but let me tell you.
I don't think it gets much more meaningful than trying to defend LGBTQ plus rights in
this federal administration, right?
So there's that.
I'm also a pretty new queer parent, and that's been quite a journey to be doing alongside
this new job.
Then again, you know, when the personal is political and the political is personal, there's
nothing like being galvanized and ready for the fight.
That's what I am.
And grateful that you are and hold the baby.
18 months.
Oh, that's fun.
It's a fun period from here on out.
They're just learning so much every single day changes, and that's wonderful.
So I'm really happy for you.
Give a little background on fair Wisconsin for people who don't know about the organization.
When was it founded?
What's its mission?
Yeah.
Of course.
So we are 31 years old this year.
And we are the only statewide LGBTQ plus civil rights and political advocacy organization
where work into advance that you protect LGBTQ plus liberation and equality every day have
been for 31 years.
So it is, it is an incredible time to be doing this work.
It's always been a time to be fighting for this work.
I think it's just even more salient today.
Well, absolutely because, you know, the Trump regime here has just turned bigotry into
a, it's calling card and, you know, in the lead up to the election, I was horrified
as I'm sure you were that there was so much scapegoating going on, scapegoating of immigrants,
and then scapegoating of trans folks.
How did that hit you?
I was disappointed in an understatement.
I don't know if I could say I'm surprised by anything anymore, but disappointing.
I think that someone, and so many someone's, it was not just Trump, right?
We're trying to run on this disgusting attack on some of the most vulnerable people in America
and in Wisconsin, because we saw it inside just Wisconsin campaigns as well, right?
So these are people asking for our vote so that they can go govern, but asking for our
vote to govern based on weaponizing kids, right?
Based on spreading lies, all in an attempt to win an election, and I just, I was disgusted
by that behavior.
And frankly, I think it should have, and probably did motivate quite a few people to not vote
for those candidates.
And when I was thinking about the past, you know, a little over a year since I've been
here a little over a year and reflecting on what it was like during that campaign versus
what it's like now, I keep going back to, there is research, polling research that shows
that the anti-transit tax are not what drove votes for those candidates in the 2024 election.
And to be clear, people voted for some of the people who ran those attacks, but the polling
shows that that's not why they voted.
They didn't say, oh, yes, I want anti-trans policies.
I'm going to vote for that person.
It was for other reasons.
So that wasn't why they won.
And to me, that gives me hope, and it also gives me direction.
And I think it should give the rest of us direction that obviously the politicians who are in power
now, many of whom ran those ads, seem to think that might be why they won the election.
Otherwise, why would they continue to be going after this incredibly vulnerable, incredibly
small population?
But they're wrong.
That is not why they won.
And I think it's really up to all of us next time round to show that we are rejecting,
not only that rhetoric that we saw on the campaign, but now the follow-up, really disgusting
policies that we're seeing coming out of this federal administration.
And frankly, even among in Wisconsin, our own state legislature has taken anti-trans votes
just in March, and that's a problem too.
Well, if it's not driving votes in their direction, why are they continuing this anti-trans
rhetoric and these anti-trans policies?
I mean, somebody should please ask them that.
I think they seem to think it is.
And I firmly hope it's still not.
Let's hope that hasn't changed since November 2024 when that polling was done.
But I think you have to keep in mind, you mentioned scapegoating, right?
I think that term is incredibly apropos to use in this situation.
And I think people in power right now, politicians, think it is easy to go after trans people because
most Americans say they've never met a trans person.
And just to be clear, you probably have, and you often don't know, and that's okay.
And also it might be because the trans person might not feel safe enough to be out amongst
you.
Nor do they have to.
That's their prerogative.
And I think because so many people do not know a trans person or do not know they know
one, it is easier for politicians to scapegoat them and to paint them through lies and misinformation
because we don't have a personal truth to stand up against that lie and show it as a lie.
And as a member of the LGBTQ plus community and seeing also as a leader in this community
now too, in this movement, so many of my fellow trans leaders are really pointing out that
there's a lot of conversation about trans people right now and very little bit is by trans
people.
And these are the voices we need to be listening to the most right now.
Yeah, and, you know, telling their truth, having more and more people recognize someone
who's trans, meet someone who's trans, have someone who's trans and their extended family.
I mean, that was the success, the great success of the great nonviolent revolution, which
was the gay and lesbian revolution of the last 50 years where, you know, people came out,
people were proud and they got in people's faces and they said, look, I'm as moral as
you are, I'm as much as a human being as you are, treat me as such and that was what
brought the victory.
Do you see the same pattern succeeding here with trans rights?
I do, but I think there's an added layer to it that the rest of us really need to realize
and that is that it is incredibly toxic, hostile environment right now for trans people to
save the least.
I mean, we are seeing violent policies coming out of this federal administration and across
states across our country.
So if a trans person is not feeling safe right now to be out and to be visible, that I would
say is completely understandable and please, whoever you are, whatever identity you are,
keep yourself safe.
That is the number one priority and that also to me indicates that it is really a time
for allies, co-conspirators, specifically those of us who are LGBT and also anyone in the
allied community for our trans families, neighbors, friends to really step up right now because
there is so much about what the scapegoating and the violent policies we're seeing is doing
to our trans community that really rhymes with things that have been and continue to be
done to other marginalized and oppressed communities and we absolutely need to understand
the part of getting through this is solidarity.
So what does that solidarity look like?
What would standing up for as an ally of someone who's trans, what would that look like?
Right, no, I appreciate the question, right?
So I think, first of all, we have to understand that transgender people and especially trans
kids have perpetually been put in the situation of having to defend their own lives and their
own humanity and that's why the rest of us really have to step up because no one should
be put in that position, especially in this time when it is so scary.
And so when we think of this administration going after some of our most vulnerable neighbors
because they think they can get away with it, we have to remember that is them laying
the groundwork for doing it against other communities and we're seeing it against other communities
too, right?
Like our black and brown friends, obviously our immigrant communities, so we have to stop
it now.
We have to stop it now.
I would say for two really important reasons.
Number one, because our trans loved ones deserve our support and the right to thrive and
the right to live publicly and so we should stop it for their sake.
And we need to stop it for everyone else's sake too because no one is safe from future
scapegoating and future policy attacks.
If our trans community isn't safe, no one is safe from that future reality coming to
bear on any community.
And so to me, I just think where are the connections within the LGBTQ plus community, where are
the connections across communities?
And you know, the LGBTQ plus community is diverse and beautiful and complicated and
we have to remember there is no such thing as queer liberation for LGBT people without
liberation for trans and non-binary people.
And I think this moment of attack from the Federal Administration is actually really
clarifying.
I've been thinking about this a lot, like my right to marry my wife is inexplicably
linked with a trans person's ability to have their identity authentically reflected in
something like an identification document, like a driver's license or a birth certificate
or a passport.
And I know, I understand how that might not seem like it's the same, but it rhymes in
so many ways because the other part of this solidarity is it's also about not only autonomy
and relationship, but also body, bodily autonomy, right?
And obviously there's so many comparisons you can make to the reproductive justice movement.
But the way this administration is going after gender-affirming care and also things like
cuts to Medicaid, that is all attacks on our ability to live publicly and healthily.
And whatever community you are a part of, it is time to band together and stand up against
all of these attacks all at the same time.
And it is frankly exhausting, but that's why you got to support some organizations doing
the work on your behalf because if it's too much for you to do as an individual, I completely
understand that.
And if it's not safe, I understand that too.
But some of us are out here on purpose professionally, so thank you for the support in advance for
the fight, right?
Yeah, these are attacks on all of our freedoms, as you're saying.
And so how can people support your work over there at Fair Wisconsin?
Well, I think staying informed is so, so so important right now, and so we do a lot
of work at Fair Wisconsin sending out email blasts, doing social media to make sure people
know what's going on and also what they can do about it.
So I think the number one thing is this subscribe to our email blasts.
We don't do them often.
We do them when they're important when you need to know something, when we need you to
do something.
So that's on our website, fairwisconsin.com.
There's a take action button at the top of it.
Click that and it'll show you how to follow all of us on all the social media platforms
and also subscribe to our email blasts.
Also, you know, I'd be a bad executive director if I didn't mention you can always donate
that.
There's another button for that.
But I think the most important thing is, you know, living out is queer and trans and allied
people.
We create change by being.
Thank you for being here.
We create change by being informed and taking action on that information.
Thank you for following us.
And I want to thank you, Abby Sweat, for being my guest on this Wisconsin Ford podcast.
Terrific to be in conversation with you again, and best of luck in your work.
Thank you.
My next guest is a trans individual living right here in Madison, who goes by their first
initial B and prefers to remain otherwise anonymous because the climate we're in and for
personal safety, of course.
Be welcome to the Wisconsin Ford podcast.
Thank you for having me.
Glad to be here.
Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Yes, so I go by B, I'm 25 years old, I've lived in Madison my whole life, grew up on
the north side, attended public schools, K through 12, proud Madisonian.
East high kid.
Almost graduated from Shabah is actually started at East, a couple years at East.
A lot of friends who taught it at East.
Yeah, it's a good place.
Shout out to Steve Stuckert.
Go ahead.
Yeah, grew up on the north side.
I'm back on the north side now, which is great, love living over there, love being in
Madison.
I see working in a public library, really enjoy that.
I spend my time outside of work, hiking, being outside with my dog, doing arts and crafts,
writing poetry, and of course the reason that I'm here is that I'm, I'm trans.
So I like spending time in my community, talking to other trans folks, finding community
there, finding a lot of joy in that.
And what was that experience like for you to first come out as non-binary, I guess, in
high school, and then go through the whole trans experience?
Yeah, so I came out right before I started, I started my sophomore year of high school.
So I was 15.
I came out to my mom first, so I came out to my friends first.
And then to my mom, followed by my dad, they were fantastic.
I had a lot of support at home and with my friends, which was really important because
school wasn't always a safe place.
I had a lot of teachers that I connected with.
I certainly had friends at school, but the overall climate wasn't very accepting.
Tell me a little bit more about that.
Yeah, so it sounds like a small thing, but it becomes a really big thing in, if you're
in a building every day for eight hours a day and you don't have a bathroom you can
go to, that's a big deal.
It's a physically big deal and it's also emotionally a signal that you don't belong
there.
Now luckily in my junior year, they east finally got a gender-neutral bathroom that they still
have now.
Of course, at the time it was one gender-neutral bathroom for the whole three floors, multiple
wings.
It was a stressful experience.
Every day was figuring out how am I going to get to that one bathroom in between my passing
times.
And then also knowing that being in that bathroom was a little bit of a signal to every other
student in the building that I wasn't using the other bathrooms, that I was different
from them.
And so you would hear things in the hallways, just slurs kind of thrown around little insults.
And that weighed pretty heavily on me, made me feel kind of unsafe at school, which is
eventually why I transferred out.
And went to Shabas.
And went to Shabas, yeah.
And what was your experience at Shabas, like?
It's a much smaller school.
There's a lot more trans students.
And so I was able to find more community there than I was able to at east.
There certainly is a community at east.
But I was able to really find my place at Shabas in that smaller environment.
A lot more one-on-one time talking to teachers, a lot more all school-wide community buildings.
I felt a lot safer there.
I saw something that you wrote where you said being able to transition was a very bright
light and a very dark time for you.
Tell me why it was such a bright light.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Being able to transition, I started my transition at 16 and I'm a medical transition anyway.
I'm a socially transition.
My sophomore year started going by a new name, new pronouns, came out to the people who
were close to me.
And then at 16, I started my medical transition, started on hormones after many conversations
with my family and my doctors.
Once everyone was on board, we started my medical transition.
And being able to see my body become the way that I imagined it in my head was such a
weight off my shoulders.
A lot of my experience of being trans has been about euphoria rather than dysphoria.
So finding joy in being recognized correctly was how I sort of discovered that I was trans.
And then later, the pain of not being recognized as I was led to a lot of dysphoria.
So being able to transition and more readily have people see me the way that I identified
and see me the way that I saw myself was a huge weight off my shoulders.
It gave me a lot of hope for the future and a time when I really needed that.
And what do you make to, what do you make of the criticism that some people who are anti-trans
say, you shouldn't be able to do what you did when you were 16, you should have to wait
till you were 18?
Truthfully, I don't know that I would have made it to 18.
It was so, so difficult for me to daily be, to feel disrespected, unseen, unheard, uncared
for in my daily interactions with people.
I don't know that I would have gotten through to reaching 18 if I hadn't had the opportunity
to express myself at 16.
Luckily, I had family support and friend support, but not everybody has that.
And being able to have just one positive adult in your life or one positive thing going,
one bit of hope for the future can be enough to get you through those couple of really tough
years.
And then getting political now, we had Trump in his campaign do two things really more
than any other thing.
That was to scapegoat immigrants and scapegoat trans folks.
How did that feel as a trans person to see that coming down?
I mean, as a trans person, I'm just trying to live my life.
I'm just trying to pursue my goals and reach happiness and find joy in my everyday life.
And to have that experience of just being who I am, trying to enjoy life, be seen and
targeted as some kind of nefarious evil plot against the world is ridiculous.
And it's also really harmful.
It's a heavy burden to have people on the television calling you a terrorist for trying to
access health care that you need, for trying to be the person that you know that you are,
that you want to be, for trying to pursue things that make you happy, to have that so targeted
and something that is so linked to who you are and how you are in the world, be targeted
as this evil thing is ridiculous and a heavy burden.
I can only imagine, because the level of hatred of ignorance and hatred combined that you
must face sounds and must feel overwhelming at times, it not only was happening during
the campaign, since Trump's been office, he's been in office, he's been pushing one
anti-trans thing after another kick to all trans folks out of the military and you know
it's one thing after another here.
So what do you advise people, a young person who's 16 as you were at the time, who may
not be in a place like Madison, which is more supportive than some other communities,
but is wanting to recognize who they really are, what's your advice for people like that
or at any age really?
Yeah, I think my biggest plea, my biggest call to them is to know that there are people
in the world for you.
We are on your side, we want you to make it through and if you can just, if you can just
get through these hard times, if you can just hold on and keep, keep living, the hard
times will end, it is, it is coming, we are on your side and we are here for you, you
just got to find your people and they are out there, I promise, even when it feels super
hard to find them, there is a community waiting for you, you bring something really special
to this world and continuing to share that your gift with the world, even when it feels
so hard is so, so important.
Well, Bea, I want to thank you for being my guest on the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
It's great having you here and sharing your story with everyone, really important.
Great, thank you so much for having me.
With me now is Deena Nina Martinez-Rutherford, a member of the Madison Common Council and
a candidate for the Wisconsin Assembly District 76, the seat currently held by Rep Francesca
Hong, who is running for governor now.
Let me stipulate at the outset that Deena is not speaking in her official capacity as
an alder.
Deena Nina Martinez-Rutherford, welcome to the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
Oh, thank you for having me.
Been looking forward to this all week, tell me if you win your race, you'd be the first
transgender member of the Wisconsin Legislature.
And I found out about you when I just googled who is the first transgender elected official
in Wisconsin in your name popped right up.
And that is false.
I'm not the first transgender elected, but I'm one of the first, I'm the first one here
in Madison.
Yeah, it did pop up.
You never know what you're going to find when you Google.
So anyway, what would the significance be if you were elected, do you think?
Well, I think now more than ever when all of our rights are kind of in jeopardy.
It's important to stand up for all of us.
But as a trans person, it's so precarious because all are a lot of these elected officials
are doing is lying about who we are and how we live our lives.
And for me, when it comes down to it, the kid in Wappen who is trans and finally gets
to see somebody who is trans in a place of power and has a seat at the table, that just
makes such a world of difference for that kid, you know, and all of the people who are
trans across the state, being able to see them in power is so important.
Because the lying has been so outrageous and vicious here, especially in the last 18
months, anywhere else, especially since Trump was elected, of course, one of the reasons
he got elected was he was so anti-immigrant and anti-trans that that appealed the lowest
emotions in some bunch of people.
And I'm just wondering as a trans person, as a vocal out there trans person, how those
attacks have felt to you?
I'm blessed, hashtag blessed, to be surrounded by people that are incredible.
So I feel buffered in a lot of ways and I understand the privilege of what that looks like and
what that feels like.
There are moments where it feels like the world is literally crushing in on you.
And it's scary, you know, and like I said, I'm in a bubble, so I feel protected and cared
for.
There are a lot of people who don't get that honor or privilege, you know?
So yeah.
But even being in the so-called bubble of Madison, there is bigotry here, of course.
And I heard of a case on the east side of Madison, recently where a trans person was
heckled by a car driving by.
Do you fear for your safety at all?
I don't, yes and no.
Like I can't live my life in fear.
I have to be who I am and exist, a full spectrum of who I am, you know, in every moment.
But I also have moments where it's scary, it's terrifying, you know?
But I know there's hope.
I believe in the goodness of humanity, despite the evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, we need to hold on to that.
Yeah.
And it's a humanity because with this president who is the ugliest of the ugly American, maybe
the ugliest American of all time, and probably he'd boast about that because he boasts about
everything, right?
But with him on that podium and with people around him, just generating so much hate,
I know there was a Republican congressman from Texas who had the most loathsome things
to say after the Charlie Kirk assassination, but people who are trans.
I can only imagine that you feel beleaguered sometime.
And yet here you are sticking your neck out, run for the state assembly, and tell me what
you want to accomplish both by running and if you managed to win.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you know, having visibility in any way, shape, or form is beneficial to all
of the state to everyone who I serve.
But the things that I see are people struggling to make ends meet.
People who are on house who just need a little help, you know, children who go to school
feeling unsafe every day and many of whom can't afford to have a lunch there.
And we can't shell over a couple of bucks to feed children who it's not their fault,
their parents are poor.
You're in here.
People are like me.
Yeah.
Because my wife was a school nurse for many years in the Madison public school, public
schools.
And she would bring cheese sticks for her kids.
And let's face it, Madison is 40% or 50% children of poverty in our public schools.
And some of the kids there don't have enough to eat in the morning, and she would need
to give them the cheese sticks just so they had the energy and the protein to be able
to take what was being taught.
And that's just a sim that we're in that place in this state in this country.
Absolutely.
Like, I was just walking into the studio and there is this lady who was unhoused and I've
bought her a sandwich before, you know?
But I'm walking in and she sees a face that can actually look at her and see her.
And she gave me the biggest hug and she was like, do I know you?
I'm like, we've shared a meal together, you know?
That is service, you know, those moments where we have real human connection with people
that we would have never spoken to.
That's where we've got to live and we've got to understand that all of us are on this
planet together.
You know?
Like none of us are getting off easy, you know?
There's not a mothership coming to get us and we've already passed the rapture time.
So, you know, I just wish we could all look at each other and see the person and have
compassion and care for somebody that we don't understand.
Yeah, the idea that empathy is passé or a bad thing, which some of the Trumpites parrot
is just one of the most disgusting things that I've heard in a long time.
But there are a lot of disgusting things out there.
And it's heartbreaking to me because I came from evangelicalism.
I speak the language, you know?
But when that is touted as the reason you're fighting against the things that Jesus actually
taught about, that's perverse.
Whatever happened to love that neighbor is theyself or bring the stranger in your own.
Welcome the immigrant and treat them like your own.
I don't know.
That was even the Old Testament, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, they're cross not a lot of passages in their Bibles, I don't get it.
You talk about housing a lot, not only for the unhoused, but just affordability, which
is just in Madison, it's horrible all across Wisconsin, all across the country.
People are paying a ridiculous amount, 30%, 40%, 50% of their income, just to pay
rent or pay their mortgage.
I know it's your press conference.
You talked about that being a really important issue.
Why is that?
Well, I struggle with finding housing that's affordable.
You know, I don't make a lot, I'm historically an under-resource individual, sadly, but
also, like, I'm grateful I have that experience so that I understand what it's like when I'm
making decisions in the house, in the, you know, in the common council or whether I get
to do it in the legislature.
But so many families are so on the edge and it's terrifying for them and it stresses
them out.
And it keeps them from being able to exist and live and thrive.
And I want to meet that moment head on by proposing new ideas, innovation grants for
housing so that smaller cities and, you know, cities, our size can actually do something
to house human beings.
You know, I often say that housing should be a human right in the richest country in
the world and we still have homelessness and poverty.
Yeah.
FDR talked about it, you know, 80 years ago and here we are 80 years later and we still
don't have it.
And now we're criminalizing them, which is just unconscionable.
Tell me a little bit more about your background, you aren't from Wisconsin.
I got here as quickly as I could though and we're grateful you're here.
I grew up in Texas, a small town in Texas, just north of Dallas, lived in Los Angeles
for a decade and got here after that.
Everything closes so early.
I'm still going to say that so true more than a decade in and I'm still a flabbergasted
by it.
What to do after that?
Sleep.
Yay.
Yeah.
So when I got here, I actually met a bunch of Wisconsin people out in LA and became friends
with them and then they had a wedding and more Wisconsinites came in and I was like, wow,
y'all drink.
Yes, it's the state religion.
Right.
And so the intention was just to stay here for the summer and work, but I ended up falling
in love with Madison and Wisconsin and meeting people who were just so real and cool.
Like I wasn't worried if anybody was trying to get something out of me or having to think
about, are they going to be beneficial to my career in the future?
You know, like I just got to be a woman for the first time in the middle of the country.
You know, it's not a hustle here.
I used to live in DC where it was all about status, who you're working for, which Senator
or Congressmen are cabinet official, you know, and then it was, you know, who can work
the longest, brag about working the longest hours, which was crazy because, you know, if
you're working 80 hours, how good are you in those last 15 or 20 or 25 of them?
Yeah.
So that always repelled me.
And when I came here 45 years ago, I had the exact same feeling, you know, people actually
live here.
You know, it's not, and they're not about just being very grabby about what the other
person can give them and their way to their next stop.
So I really appreciated it then.
I still appreciate it today.
Yeah.
It's one of the great things about living in Wisconsin.
And the compassion and kindness and drive to care for people is incredibly beautiful.
It's a great thing about this day.
Yeah.
Only, I guess one of the last questions I have is, how do you think we're going to get
through this period?
You talked about having faith and the goodness of people.
Yeah.
We don't have a lot of power right now.
And it's a tough moment and what's your advice for people who are feeling despondent?
Well, I think power is overrated.
Like I'm not in it for power and I'm clearly not in it for money, right?
I believe the way forward is remembering who we are as human beings and instead of
doom scrolling, start hope scrolling, you know, and when you get tired and scared, remember
that there are people who are out there fighting for our rights and standing up to injustice.
And get out there and do it yourself, if you can.
And even if it is simple as giving $5 to somebody on the street, giving some food, carrying
an extra sandwich when you're walking down the street, an extra bottle of water.
Like that human decency, kindness, remembering the humanity and everyone, that's how we
get through it.
I love that protest and random acts of kindness.
Yeah.
Dean and Nina Martinez, Rutherford, thanks for being my guest today on the Wisconsin Forward
podcast and good luck with your campaign.
Thank you.
Absolute pleasure.
And also go to vote deenanina.com.
My team would have been mad at me if I didn't say that.
Well, that's a wrap for this episode of the Wisconsin Forward podcast.
I'm Matt Rothschild.
And I want to thank my guests again, Abby Sweats and B and Dean and Nina Martinez Rutherford.
I also want to thank my great producer, Dom Lee.
And I want to thank Sage Wilde of Civic Media for giving me this platform.
I also want to thank you, the listener.
I hope you found this episode to be of interest and I appreciate the time you spend with me
on every episode.
My next one's going to be on the changing role of policing in America and hearing Wisconsin.
And I'll be joined by former Madison Police Chief David Cooper and by Angela Lang of
Block.
You won't want to miss that one.
So keep an eye out for it at civicmedia.us.
