Hey, Matt Rothschild here with another episode of the Wisconsin Forward podcast on the Civic
Media Radio Network.
Thanks for listening.
Today, we're going to be talking about Trump's war on immigrants.
My first guest is Sally Flores, who by day is the statewide organizer for the Wisconsin
Fair Maps Coalition, but by night, she's an immigrant rights activist who works often
with committees without borders, a branch of Vosis de la Frontera, the leading immigrant
rights group here in Wisconsin.
And full disclosure, I used to work with Sally at the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign.
Sally Flores, welcome back to the Wisconsin Forward podcast.
Thanks so much for having me on.
Tell me your story, how you came here, your Adaka person, right?
Yeah, my DACA recipient.
I identify as an undocumented American.
I came here when I was five years old.
My parents and I overstate our visas.
They told me we're going to go visit an aunt.
And I was five.
It's not like I can have the autonomy to say, no, I don't want to go see my aunt.
And so we came here, but I truly didn't know my status until eighth grade where my mom
and I sold him bananas to fundraise so I could go to Washington, DC.
And out of the hundreds of schools that applied to go into the White House, my school got
selected.
And, you know, by eighth grade, I was already the interpreter for my family, helped my
dad with this taxes.
I helped fill any sort of paperwork out and I filled out my paperwork to go into the
White House.
And so 40 classmates and I get through the parking garage and we're lining up and everybody's
going through the way through like TSA almost, that's how I remember it.
And everybody gets a green light, green light, green light.
You get to me and it's a red light.
And so my middle school teacher walked me to the bus where I waited with the bus driver
for about four hours.
Oh, that must have been brutal.
How did you react?
I don't even think there are still words to describe how I felt in that moment and how
I feel now.
I just knew that I didn't want anybody else to feel hopeless and to also feel worthless.
And, you know, and not understand why and this was predates phones so it's not like
I could call my parents and just be really angry at them.
And I truly don't remember most of that trip because it was so tainted with that experience.
And so I knew there and then that I needed to find my kin, my people.
I couldn't be the only undocumented in the entire United States.
And so I connected with a lot of groups.
Youth and part and the struggle is a high school arm of Vosis de la Frontera and they're
celebrating their 25th year anniversary.
So you connected with them right away?
Yeah, I tried to find my folks and first I connected with the Spanish club.
I didn't realize those Spanish club for white people who were trying to learn Spanish.
I just didn't know where to find my people there.
And how did you carry on with your politics from there?
I think that really shaped me into one not wanting anybody else to feel the way that I felt
in eighth grade or ever.
We always carry an inner child with us.
And I try to bring her out all the time because I, it's like we're nurturing ourselves.
And I know that if I'm going to be in this work, we need to nurture others and each other
and be in community now more than ever.
And your parents, at some point you told me a while ago that they went back to Mexico.
Why did they do that?
Yeah, so they self-deported in 2018 during the first Trump administration because of 287
G. So it's a racist law that allows sheriff departments to operate as ICE agents.
My dad was a contractor, paid his taxes, and he was in Staling, Carpet in Waukesha County
where 287 G was one of the first counties that was enforcing sheriff collaboration with
ICE.
And he had a driver's license.
It was just an expired license from Seattle, Washington because when coming to the U.S.,
we came to Washington state first.
And so he did have a license, it was just expired.
But the intimidation tactics worked.
And my dad was nearing retirement, doesn't have a pension, doesn't have social security,
realizes he has to work till the day he dies.
And so him and my mom went back.
Well, it was a prudent decision in hindsight because one broken tail light or one rolling
through a stop sign and he would have been in real trouble.
And then given what's happened right now with Trump's Warren immigrants, you don't
even need a pretext like that.
No, and Trump's America, everybody can be racially profiled and everybody can be attacked
just for having an accent.
And I think my parents, they had the autonomy, which is what is being stripped away now
more than ever.
People are losing their autonomy, losing their self-worth, any access to self-determination.
I thought of your folks because there is this case in Chicago recently where ICE was chasing
someone down and he was trying to escape and they just shot him dead.
Yeah.
Yeah, and there isn't any civic uproar.
People are afraid to hit the streets and call for justice and it's dehumanizing.
And there is some civic uproar.
Yeah, there's some civic uproar, but it's just not as I think folks are more apathetic
towards the situation because we're all afraid.
We're all so afraid.
I don't go to protests anymore.
You're used to lead them.
I used to lead them.
Yeah.
And it's more of a sense of safety when I recognize that I am my parents' safety net,
like I need to keep myself safe.
And that's a change just from a couple months ago because a couple months ago when I was
talking with you, you were leading marches in Milwaukee.
I was.
Yeah, you know, and all it takes is a day and it all it takes is a day to change policy.
And it's going to affect everybody, not just me as a DACA recipient, but citizens alike
and it already is.
And so I had to come to that realization.
My attorney had to sit down with me and was like, I love you and I'm telling you this
as a friend, not as a client because you need to keep yourself safe and you need to show
a model that other folks need to stay safe.
Although I'm still very open about my status and publicly fearless.
I still, I do not want to get caught in the crossfire between, you know, ice and police
now legally abducting people.
And what's been your reaction to these abductions that we've been saying with masked men and unmarked
cars, shoveling people into cars like this is Pinochet's Chile or something?
Truly.
This is one of those things where like we have to organize.
So come meet this in front of us or come meet that without borders is training people
to become ice verifiers.
And we've trained almost 400 people to verify ice presence.
70% are white people who care, which is who we need at the front lines right now.
And they know how to identify vehicles that are ice, you know, related.
Some ice agents are using license plates from Etroca and Mexico from different parts of
the globe, you know, North America and Mexico.
And so we train people on how to really tell like what is the difference between an ice
agent to sheriff, a police officer, what are their different roles?
We remind people that a person cannot be abducted without a judicial warrant, which is what
they don't have.
But imagine if you're in a sense of pressure and somebody shoving a paper on your face
and you don't speak English and you don't read English, you think anything is a legal
serving document.
And so folks are almost willingly giving themselves up.
What do you tell folks who are going to immigration or naturalization hearing because those
can be so dicey now they're grabbing people there even though they've stood in line for
years?
Yeah.
So we also have a rigorous court accompaniment program.
And although court accompaniment just basically means people are trained to almost be like
legal observers to see what's going on and to making sure that folks get in and get
out safely.
But people are just actively being abducted because they are putting themselves at risk.
And so less and less people are showing up to these mandated court appointments, which
then gives them some sort of warrant and it almost puts them in trouble.
But it's like, it's either I work another week or I get deported on the spot.
And they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And what are you hoping for allies to do because if you're undocumented or even if you're
a U.S. citizen who's Latino, you're still going to be grabbed by allies right now according
to the U.S. Supreme Court, what do you want folks to do to organize against this?
Yeah.
I think we have a responsibility to community.
The U.S. really basis itself off of individualism.
So when we create and foster community, it's more intentional to be with one another.
I would recommend more people know their rights.
People need to take more bystander intervention trainings.
I always recommend them a walkie-turners or ACLU because they've been instrumental in
helping us craft our trainings as well, especially our ice verifier trainings.
And so we try to host them at least once a month.
You can go to Komitising Fronteras at gmail.com and just send us a brief message that you
want information and we'll gladly share it out with you.
But more than anything is like, let's get to know your neighbor.
Get to know the guy that cuts your grass.
I think it's really important.
One of our good friends, Debbie Patel, from Worth Fighting for Wisconsin has some money
in the books for an attorney for all of her yard workers and for her landscapers.
She has a plan with them even though they might not speak the same language.
So people are consciously making the effort to just get to know their community.
Yeah, we need to shelter people, aid people, and also join organizations like you said,
partners, ACLU, Vosis de la Frontera, League of Women Voters, any group that is doing
the work, any immigrant rights group, any civil libertarian group right now because so
much as it's taken, you can't do it alone.
If you think you're going to do it alone, you're going to burn out.
And if you're sitting alone and just feeling outraged, that leads to powerlessness too.
You've got to get your power and one way to get your power is to participate with organizations
that are doing the good work.
Yeah, and we can't just keep living in the shadows.
I think something that was very telling was Catalina Sochi Santiago, who was a DACA recipient
that got detained in El Paso.
She was an organizer.
She was an organizer with Josecha Creative Space and other statewide and national organizations.
And that's the only reason we knew that she was detained.
But now we know that there's about 17 to 20 other DACA recipients that are detained.
But if they're not actively in community, then we don't know where they're at.
So it was really interesting to see that that while she was able to fundraise, she was
able to go through due process because we challenged it collectively as organizations,
but also as like national callouts that really, really worked.
Sometimes when we're caught in a moment, it looks like we're in an impossible moment.
How do you look around the corner and see how we're going to get through this?
I think about, I only know one step up, right?
I just know how to, I might not see the full staircase, but I know that I just got to get
one step up and then maybe I'll see more and more.
I've constantly challenged to open doors for myself and others, and now we have to break
through other ceilings and walls, literally we have to break these walls.
But it also gives me a sense of like, we're not alone in this.
Like while we're under attack with immigrant rights, so are voting rights.
Civil rights, like all of our, all of what we thought was community is under attack.
So what we need is more community.
Absolutely, more community and taking one more step.
Silly Flores, thanks so much for being my guest down the Wisconsin Ford podcast.
Always great to have you on.
Thank you.
With me now is Aisa Olivaris, legal director and practicing attorney at the Community Immigration
Law Center here in Madison, Wisconsin.
Aisa, welcome to the Wisconsin Ford podcast.
Thank you for having me.
Well, it's great to have you here.
Tell me a little bit about your background.
I see you grew up in Texas, right?
Yes, I was born on the border in McAllen, Texas, the most southern tip of Texas.
Not El Paso, most southern tip all the way down on the Rio Grande River.
And that's what shaped a lot of what I do today and the views and the things that I do
around immigration.
And you were a teacher first, right?
Tell me about that.
How'd you like that?
Sure.
So I lived in Austin for some time and decided that I wanted to be able to give back to the
community.
I come from a family of educators and it felt natural to be able to use my skills being
bilingual in Spanish to assist children who were learning how to read in Spanish.
And so I worked in South Austin for a couple of years as a first grade teacher.
And then why do you decide to become a lawyer?
So during that time as a first grade teacher in a bilingual classroom, I had many parents
who came to me asking me to translate different letters or write letters of support for them
because they were at risk of deportation.
And during that time, it was about 2009, 2010, there was a lot of fear in that community
around immigration.
And I felt like I wanted to be able to advocate for my students and their families in a
different way.
So I decided to attend law school.
And is that how you got up here to Madison?
It is.
So we were looking around at where to go different places.
My husband and I, and he had fond memories having worked as a migrant worker in Minnesota
for some time of the Midwest.
And so he said, why don't we give the Midwest a try?
And here we are now.
And you are enjoying it here in Wisconsin.
I really like Madison a lot.
It's a great city to be in.
I have a young daughter.
It's been great to raise her here around such amazing people and such amazing advocates
in our community.
So tell me a little bit about the community immigration law center.
So the community immigration law center was born in 2009 from an idea of Jean-René
who is head of international partners currently at the Christ Presbyterian Church.
And he is from Cameroon and he came to Madison and realized that we were sort of a legal
desert around immigration and that a lot of the people that he was supporting and seeing
weren't getting great advice about how to navigate the system.
And so he started reaching out to a bunch of different immigration attorneys who came
together and created the community immigration law center.
And it started off with giving free advice to people about how to navigate a really complicated
legal system.
Well, it must be really difficult to tell people or figure out how to navigate that
legal system right now, isn't it?
It is especially difficult because things are changing every day.
So we have different policy announcements, case law and appeals that are coming down
that have really made it difficult to advise people from day to day.
My advice last week on a certain issue is different this week based on some different
case law that has changed.
And I think it's been pretty strategic to come out with different negative policy and
case law and trying to advise and keep people up to date has been rather difficult.
But for that reason, these services are more important now than ever.
You know, it's just talking with Sally Flores and we're talking about how difficult the task
is for immigrants for immigrants themselves, for allies of immigrants and even attorneys
representing immigrants to give them safe advice in how to interact with the immigration
system because you can be going to court.
You can be going to a naturalization process and you can be nabbed by ice right now.
So how do you deal with that balancing act?
It has been rather difficult.
There is a lot of fear in our community and so many people who tell me I just want to
do things the right way, the way that they've told me to do to go to court, to go to my
ice check-ins in Milwaukee and that fear is starting to inform the way people are navigating.
So it's been rather difficult.
We advise people of the risks and what may or may not happen and how it might impact
a future process and then they speak with their families and decide from there what they
need to do.
What's been your general reaction to this onslaught, what I call Trump's war on immigrants?
I think right now, you know, anti-immigrant policy and decisions have been prevalent but
we've seen them for some time, right?
For the past decade that I've been practicing and it's just gotten more aggressive.
And I think right now what's been really hard is this constant changes and also the rhetoric
around the work that is being done by immigration attorneys of immigrants.
It's creating a really difficult atmosphere to work in and it also makes it hard to create
safe spaces for the people that I'm advising.
And safe spaces for you perhaps yourself, I hear you've been getting threats at your
job or that your office is beginning threats, what's that about?
Right.
So unfortunately, we're not everyone is appreciative of the work that it is being done.
Although we do uphold the law and we are interested in fairness, we're interested in due process
and indignity of people, which is what we all deserve and what we should all have.
But unfortunately, there is some disagreement with that and we have received threats.
Luckily, we are located in a facility that is very safe and our work has continued in
spite of that.
How serious were those threats?
Do you want to talk about them in detail?
You know, there has been sometimes presence around the building that we have questioned.
That wasn't normal, normally seen before.
And then other than that, it's been postcards and letters that have described our work
as being unethical.
I used to get threats when I was editor at the Progressive Magazine.
It's never fun.
So I can feel that that must not be fun for you and I wish you well in your work there.
I want to give you a question that's even larger in, and I ask this of everyone almost
do I talk to, what's it going to take to defeat this war on immigrants?
I think it's going to take organizing at the community level.
I think it's going to take local communities and states stepping up to the federal government
to say we're going to protect the people that live here, our neighbors, the people that
serve in our communities and, you know, we're not going to fold to this expansion of detention
centers to this expansion of anti-immigrant rhetoric and anti-immigrant policy.
So I think it's going to take localities and I think it's going to start grassroots.
Totally agree with you there.
If people want to support the work you do at the Community Immigration Law Center,
how can they help?
So we take volunteers.
There is an intake volunteer form on our website for people who can do intakes with individuals
who want to have a consult with one of our immigration attorneys.
They can also go to CILCMadison.org and make a donation.
Our work, you know, we don't, we are attorneys, but we do pay non-profit rates and all of
the work that we do goes to the attorneys to continue to do this work.
The work that we provide is completely pro bono.
We have very few clients that we charge expenses to or expert fees.
And so if we get donations, those expert fees can be paid for individuals.
We can continue to keep our team strong and growing for what is to come.
And that website again is CILC.org.
CILCMadison.org.
CILCMadison.org.
Ayeso Olivares.
Thanks so much for being my guest on the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
Thanks for having me.
My next guest here in studio with me is representative Darren Madison and Milwaukee,
who is one of several Democrats in the legislature who recently introduced a package of bills
to put at least some restraints on ICE here in Wisconsin.
Representative Madison, welcome to the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
Yeah, glad to be here.
Oh, it's great to see you and great to be with you.
How did you get involved in politics in the first place?
Yeah, I got involved in politics when I was 13.
I came to the Capitol in 2011 with my teachers and was here protesting actin.
Actually, my birthday was one of the days during the protest.
I was born February the first.
So, you know, nothing amazing birthday fighting for justice and the rest is history.
Started helping folks to win campaigns and then eventually ran myself.
There you go, Scott Walker.
He organized a whole generation of progresses by stomping on workers' rights here in 2011.
I remember it vividly.
I was there with you and 110,000 other people here in Wisconsin.
And people drew the wrong conclusion, I think, from those protests.
They drew the conclusion.
Some people did anyway that protests don't matter.
Why do you think protests do matter?
Yeah, protests have consistently been the tool in which folks have fought for justice.
It's the protest that's been the foundation of this country as we know it.
And has led to the foundation of all of our civil liberties as well as critical needs
for our workers and families.
Yeah, I'm all about the need for protest right now.
I think what's going to get us through this period is incompetence from above and protest
from below.
Nonviolent, creative, joyful protests.
Thank you.
And, you know, through all times, I always remind folks that we must remain radically optimistic
about our future and protest our space where folks are reminded of the community we
share.
It's hard to be radically optimistic right now, though.
How do you sustain that?
Yeah.
I spend time in community with people that I care about and always remind myself that in
a world where folks are trying to consistently steal your joy.
It's your responsibility to maintain it.
Yeah, it's tough to do right now because there's war on so many fronts.
I mean, that's the amazing thing about this Trump second term that he's just gone to
town all across the board, all at once at max speed.
And that is straight out of the toolbox of every fascist authoritarian.
Let's call it what it is.
And you have been outspoken on this, on a lot of the fronts, but also on this war on immigrants.
What's been your general reaction to Trump's, it's not a surprise is war on immigrants.
I mean, during the convention, they said mass deportation now, they bragged about doing
the biggest mass deportation in US history and they're doing it now, but it's quite severe.
Yeah.
I mean, this regime has been consistently trying to tear families apart and whether they
are citizens of this country or migrant communities fleeing persecution in other countries,
across the world, right, not just at our border to the South.
And it is, it's the saddest thing to see, especially when our country was founded by immigrants,
built by immigrants and it's consistently and still sustained by migrant communities.
Without migrant communities, we have nothing.
So tell me a little bit about this package of bills that you introduced with other members
of the Democratic Party and the legislature and the Socialist Caucus I might add as well.
Absolutely.
It's called the Keeping Families Together Package, while Trump's fascist agenda and
ISIS tearing families apart, our families apart in our communities, what are in constitutional
practices that threaten public safety?
We all deserve to feel safe.
This package of bills, you know, focuses on making sure that Wisconsin is a shield when
the federal government is a sort of cutting into the needs of our most marginalized communities.
The core apparatus of this package started with the No Secret Police Act, which is an
effort that has been pushed federally, but also around the country by different states,
focusing on ensuring that when ICE is engaging in our communities, they have to do it under
the public eye, they can't wear masks, they can't disguise themselves, and they have to identify
themselves.
And if they don't, they will be held accountable.
It will be a class, it will be a felony, as well as a fine up to $100,000, which, you
know, is pennies when it comes to the amount of resources federally they're putting towards
ICE.
And when those fines are acquired, those resources will be funneled into critical supports
to help folks who are facing deportation.
I mean, how would it work out if the state police were to arrest someone in ICE?
I mean, would that be a clash of one law enforcement against another?
Yeah, it is the responsibility of our law enforcement here to honor our state laws, right?
And defend our communities.
So yes, it would mean that our law enforcement would be bound by state law to hold ICE accountable.
When that does happen, it means that some of this will play out in the courts and we'll see
what things go.
It's critical that we don't forget when the federal government can make choices, but the state
has, states have their own power in autonomy.
And that's what this bill package is about, acknowledging our state's autonomy and ensuring
that we are protecting our most marginalized communities.
You know, some cynics would say, you know, why are you introducing this package of bills?
There's no chance that they're going to pass because the Republicans have their majority.
What's your answer to that?
Yeah, I think around the state, right, you are, you know, when you look at communities and
the struggles that they're facing, we know that migrant communities exist not just in Milwaukee,
not just in in Madison, not just in in Racine or Green Bay.
Migrant communities are working in and below it and blueberry Wisconsin in superior
and they are a critical part of our infrastructure.
You will have folks, even on the other side of the aisle, who are farmers,
who run small businesses that use migrant labor and are afraid to say the quiet part out loud.
And it's that they need migrant communities to ensure that their raw economy is driving.
As folks have to reckon with that, it means that their legislators will have to reckon with
that as well, which means that there's a chance for these bills to pass.
And if there's a new majority, the new Democratic majority after the elections in 2026
and a Democratic governor, you can get some of these things through.
Oh, yeah.
And yeah, I mean, we are, it's critical that we introduce the bills that we want to put into,
put in place and as soon as we become the majority in the legislature right now.
This is the time to let folk communities know what our priorities are,
so that they know what they're voting for in 2026.
Yeah, I think that's really important.
And Minnesota kind of showed us the way when they got a majority there,
they were able to do real reforms that really impacted people in a positive way in a hurry.
And it's good to see Democrats here in Wisconsin saying this is what we stand for.
And if we get the power, this is what we want to do when you're liaisably better for it.
And you're right about industry in Wisconsin.
I mean, the dairy industry would be busted without immigrant labor, the roofing industry,
the restaurant industry, the construction industry.
One industry after another depends on migrant labor here.
And to have people just picked up off the street by masked armed men and thrown into unmarked cars,
I mean, that's not America, that's not supposed to be America.
No, you know, it's reminding me of, you know, I wasn't alive at this time, but 1940s,
Germany, right? I was watching a video yesterday of a state senator in Chicago.
She was running in the streets and letting community members know to stay in their cars.
And she was running up to ICE, ICE folks who were moving in her community.
I mean, reminding those folks that this is her community, these are her people and someone has
to defend them. I never thought I'd see something like that.
But, you know, it's critical that we all do our part to defend each other, especially in these
times. Are you concerned at all about yourself and your own safety? I mean, the way Trump's going,
it could be that he'll start citing people like you for interfering with federal law enforcement.
Yeah. I've, I've feared for my safety my entire life.
Whether it's been under, you know, this current regime or, you know, the navigating policing
in the communities that I was raised in. And consistently, my mom has told me from a very young
age, if you don't stand for anything, you'll fall for everything. So I've always consistently
stand, stand it up for what I believed in. And I know that that means putting myself in
homes right away. I did it when I was organizing an urban underground as a teenager. I did it when
I was doing work with David Bowen and we were marching for 200 days during 2020. And I do it now
as I serve in the legislature because that's what people deserve and that's what we need right now.
When folks have power, folks should be using power to defend the folks who need us to move.
And right now, if you're a US citizen, it's really important. I mean, if you are an undocumented
person, I can understand why for safety reasons, you need to lay low. But if you're a US citizen,
this is the time to stand up. Yeah. It takes all of us. It really does. There are folks who,
you know, we, we as people don't, don't commonly don't think about the privileges that we have.
And especially as citizens in this country, when we say, you know, when folks on the 4th of July
or any critical moment where we're talking about the freedoms that our country provides us,
we must acknowledge that those privileges are something that we should be using to,
to help, help all communities. And right now, our migrant communities need help.
They need, they need their neighbors. And we need to show up and step up.
You definitely need to show up and step up. How do we stay sane while we're doing it?
You and I share a hobby in bird watching. That's one thing that I use to stay sane. Tell me
what you use to stay sane. Thank you. I mean, I love going bird watching. I just spent some time
walking through the Aubrey rhythm this morning. I heard, heard a few blue jays and some cardinals
and saw a praying mantis, which in the full adult praying mantis, it was so cool.
But so spending time in nature is definitely the play. And I don't think a lot of people
in communities like, you know, you walk on the street, you're like, oh, that's just a bird.
Oh, that's just an insect. There's a lot of cool things about the nature, the natural world around us
that helps us look beyond the conditions that we're living in. So loving, love spending time in
nature. Oh, I think that's just a great way to end our conversation. Yeah. It is a re-energizing
and recentering thing to be out in nature. We need to stay sane even as we fight back nonviolently
against Trump's wars against immigrants and the first amendment and everything else that's
beautiful about our country. So thanks so much, Representative Darren Madison for being on the
Wisconsin Hour podcast with me. It's great to see you. Stay well. You too.
Well, that's it for this episode of the Wisconsin Forward podcast. I want to thank my guests again,
Sally Flores and Iiso Olivaris and State Representative Darren Madison. And I also want to thank
Dom Lee, my terrific engineer over here at Civic Media. And I thank you, the listener. I'm Matt
Rothschild and I'll be back soon with another episode of the Wisconsin Forward podcast.
It's either going to be on the heightened assault against the trans community or it'll be with
Chief David Cooper and Angela Lang about policing in America.
