Wisconsin Faith Leaders Speak Out on Trump’s Authoritarianism

Hey, I'm Matt Rothschild and welcome to this episode of the Wisconsin Forward podcast where

we're going to be talking to faith-based leaders here in Wisconsin who are standing up to

Trump's authoritarianism and his anti-immigrant policies.

With me to delve into this issue right now is the Reverend Dr. Kerry Parker, who's the

executive director of the Wisconsin Council of Churches opposed she's held since 2017.

Dr. Parker, thanks for being on the Wisconsin Forward podcast with me.

It is great to be with you. Tell me, how do you see the role of the Wisconsin Council of Churches

at this really dicey moment for our country? We are here to connect and inspire folks.

We are here to backstop them and remind them that they are not in this alone. I tell our staff

every day, the most important thing you do is leave folks with the feeling that they are not alone.

So important, so important because if you're an undocumented person in the United States right now,

I can only imagine how scary and lonely this moment is.

Absolutely. The powers that be, you know, Christian Lingo, we talk about the

principalities and powers. The powers that be want you to feel alone, they want to fracture us

and divide us and the more we can stay connected and stay connected across differences,

the more we remember our own power. How do you deal with this crackdown? I don't like that word

on this scapegoating of immigrants. And you've written about the imperative to protest

Trump's policies that are scapegoating immigrants. How do you, what do you think is going on there

and how do you preach about this or how do you comfort people about this?

Well, authoritarianism thrives on creating another, right? They have to create a scapegoat.

And my faith teaches me love of neighbor, love of self, love of God.

And all of those things operate in tandem. They're all intertwined with one another.

So it becomes as if there is no other. So there's no, someone else's child,

there's no, someone else out there. The coat I have in my closet that I'm not using

belongs to the person who needs it. All of these things are part and parcel of one another

of care for the community, care for self and care for Jesus.

And the idea that you should welcome the stranger into your home. Yes.

I mean, that doesn't see, I don't know what Bible these folks are reading. But that's, you know,

that's not what the teaching is. It's so contrary to the teaching of welcoming the stranger,

you know, treating everyone like you'd be treated yourself.

Right. I mean, folks who have come here to the US, no matter what status they have come under,

are part of our community, they're part of our economy, they're part of our neighborhoods,

our churches. They go to the same schools, libraries, gas stations, grocery stores.

And they deserve the same respect as any other neighbor.

So important. At the Wisconsin Council, churches, you've joined a lawsuit against the Trump

administration because it's no longer keeping places of worship off limits from immigration

raids. Why was that important to you? Oh, that's right. We are one of four lawsuits now on this.

We are part of the Menonite Church, USA lawsuit. And we're one of 27 parties, I think, that are

plaintiffs in that lawsuit. And this was important to us because so many of our member traditions

were started because of government overreach and not wanting government and church to be entangled.

And we looked at this revised policy by DHS and said, if our line is not

government coming into our places of worship to potentially drag out our neighbors and friends

and fellow congregants, what is our line going to be? And so we voted unanimously

on a board level, on a staff level. This is what we needed to be doing.

And what's the consequences if I start going into churches and synagogues and mosques and

dragging people out? Well, we already see consequences. People are afraid to go to worship. People

are afraid to seek out services that are happening through churches. People are afraid to

seek out spiritual enrichment and pastoral care. And things like getting groceries from food

pantries, seeking mental health assistance, taking their children to fellowship activities.

All of these things are places that people are pulling back from and they deter from building

community. And really, it impairs their quality of life too. Very much so. Again, it goes back to

that isolation. Here's a question for you. We're super polarized right now in this country.

Your head of the Wisconsin Council of Churches, how do you talk to other faith leaders

who don't agree with you on some of these political issues?

Oh, we do it all the time. We connect 23 different Christian traditions. And if you think everybody

agrees on everything, oh my goodness. Not only that, but people within any one of those traditions

don't agree on everything. And the important thing is to look behind the political

position statements and look at the core values. What is animating us?

What are we leaning on? Because so many times we go into these well-trod political arguments

as our first position. And we've been taught by media no offense. We've been taught by media,

we've been taught by politicians. We've been taught by demagogues to go down these paths as if

we don't have to think about it. It just comes straight from the gut, straight from the lizard brain.

And don't think about it. Just go. And what happens if we lean into faith and teaching and

consideration and actually take time to think through what we're talking about? And what we

might have in common, sometimes the middle ground is not at 50 percent, but it's going deeper instead

of going towards the middle. And what's the possibility of bringing people around, do you think?

I think it's long work. It's not fast work. It is long work. And it's about getting people to see

the humanity of the other. I was speaking to a Reverend the other day who

mentioned Martin Marty, who was a faith leader in the Chicago area, and who was very liberal.

And he was asked by a friend, what do your parishioners who don't agree with you? How do they deal

with you? And he said, well, they see me comfort them in the hospital, comfort them in the home

after a tragedy. And they appreciate that part of me. And so I can be different from them politically,

but still they are open to me. And it seems to me you as a faith leader, Reverend Dr. Parker,

you have that capacity. And I'm sure you're doing that too, not just with other faith leaders,

but when you're in in parish. It really does come down to compassion. I was a parish pastor before

I came to this role on the council. And so it helps me speaking with parish pastors to say,

you know, I know how hard this is. And you need to earn the ability to have heart conversations

with people because you've already shown that you love them and you see their struggles.

And it is not prophetic preaching and prophetic teaching against a pastoral presence. It is

both of them together. And it's not just, you know, trying to beat them in an argument or say,

look at this, read this article and that one. And that's not what brings people around really.

Oh, heavens, no, you can't preach at people and expect anybody to come to your position.

This isn't a logical proposition. This is about matters of the heart and matters of the faith.

And, you know, again, coming from a Christian position, it's looking at the models that Jesus had

for us and how he sat with people and he cared for them and he shared meals. And he was in dialogue,

not having a monologue at people all the time. And that's really an important lesson to learn.

Yeah, screaming at people isn't going to work. That's for sure.

How do you sustain hope in this period?

By praying with people and singing with people. One of the privileges of my job is getting to

church all over the state and with folks from lots of different traditions and being able to see

faithful folks, continuing to come together and being the best of what they can be in the face of

so many challenges. There's this great song that comes from resistance traditions called,

how can I keep from singing? And when tyrants tremble sick with fear is one of the lines from that.

Oh, that's great. Right? And there's so many songs like this that you can just feel people's

spirits rise when they sing songs like that. And every time you can just feel the room rise.

And just this little extra bit of hope, no matter what, they're going to go from that room in here or

experience for just a few minutes. They have been in community and they have been attuned to one

another into the divine. Oh, I love that. Resistance songs to bringing people together. Yep.

The Reverend Dr. Parker is the executive director of the Wisconsin Council of Churches. Thanks

thanks so much for being my guest on this podcast. Wish you all the best. Love hearing from you.

Thank you so much. Joining me now on the Wisconsin Forward podcast is an old friend and colleague,

Rabbi Bonnie Margulese, who for many years was the tireless executive director of Wisconsin

faith voices for justice. Rabbi Bonnie is now the director of Hillel and Jewish life at Trinity

College in Connecticut. Rabbi Bonnie, welcome to the Wisconsin Forward podcast.

Hey, Matt. Thanks so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it.

Well, it's great to be in conversation with you again. As a rabbi and a person of faith in conscience,

how are you grappling with where we are as a country right now? As a human being, I wake up every day

with a knot in my stomach and I go to bed every night with a knot in my stomach. I think the moment we

are in is terrifying as as a human being. It is terrifying as a woman. It is terrifying as a Jew.

And as a faith leader, it is also a call to action. As you know, my rabbit has always been

a social justice rabbit. And I've always felt call to action. But in this time of all times,

it is so critical that we hear the faith community speaking out. And I'm grateful for so many of my

colleagues who have been speaking out in the pulpit, in the public sphere, in the media.

We need those moral voices and that moral clarity today. Absolutely. And tell us what there is in

the Jewish tradition that instructs us about how to react to Trump's scapegoating of immigrants

in his racism and some of his other horrendous policies.

You know, we always go back to the most foundational text, which is right there in the first

chapter of Genesis. God says, let us make human beings in our image. And the rabbis of Jewish

tradition have always interpreted that to mean God doesn't have an image. So what does that mean

that we're made in God's image? It means that we all have God within us. We all have those

God-like attributes. And so as God is merciful, we need to be merciful. As God is just,

we need to be just as God is compassionate. We need to be compassionate. And then the Torah

goes on to make clear throughout the text, what that means, 36 times. The Torah tells us,

treat the stranger among you the same as the citizen. A dictate that is being violated right

left in center every day by Trump and his cronies. And it is horrifying. But what he is doing to our

country is horrifying. You know, I've heard it said that Judaism doesn't talk about democracy,

but that's not really true because there are many instances throughout the biblical text and

throughout Jewish history where we are admonished that our leaders must have the ascent of those

that they lead. They can't lead by fiat. And actually, in the book of Samuel, when the people

call out to the prophet Samuel that they want a king, because they want to be like the other

nations of the world that have kings, Samuel says, you don't want a king. Kings are bad.

Kings are going to tax you and kings are going to basically enslave you to build their palaces.

And that's what we're seeing. We're being taxed through tariffs. We're being taxed through

this big horrendous bill, which is giving tax breaks to the wealthy and increasing taxes on those

who can't afford it. And we're being enslaved in detention camps where immigrants, whether

they are undocumented or here legally, are being whisked off to without due process, without access

to lawyers, without anybody even really knowing where they are. I mean, I obviously I could go on.

But we have limited time. No, I'm glad you have spelled it out. And the passage that rings

in my ear always is justice, justice, justice show you pursue. And of course, Trump is pursuing

the opposite of justice in every realm that you can look at. How do you have a dialogue with

members of the Jewish community who don't recognize the dangers that Trump represents or who

actually support them? Well, for one thing, I'm happy to say that the majority of the American

Jewish community is not in support of Donald Trump and his policies and are appalled by Project

2025 by these efforts to enshrine white Christian nationalism into our government and into our laws

and into our structures. So the vast majority of the American Jewish community understands the

danger that we are in. I had members, this past year, I was in term rabbi at a small congregation

in Wisconsin. And I had members in my congregation who were either Trump supporters or who

had different political views from mine. And at the end of the year, I wrote to one of my

congregants and I said, you know, you've been lovely all year. You've been sweet. You've

been wonderful. You've been supportive. And I know that we don't agree politically. And he wrote

back to me, of course, all of my sermons and talks and everything had a social justice

point to them because that's what I do. And he said, you know, we don't agree politically, but you

opened my eyes to other perspectives and to a different point of view. And if I can do that,

you know, that's that's amazing. And that's that's so worthwhile. You know, so often we say,

we're not speaking to the extremes on either end. We're speaking to the undecided middle

or the uninformed middle. But we have to also recognize that sometimes it is possible to

get even those on the extreme right to hear you and to perhaps be open to a different way of

looking at things. Yeah, I'm always trying to open conversations with people. I think it's really

important. You know, I'm thinking back rabbi Bonnie to the civil rights movement when we saw

Jewish leaders like rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel walking on arm and arm and hand with Martin Luther

King. Do you see a similar interfaith resistance movement taking shape right now? I do. Actually,

I was on a webinar yesterday yesterday with the interfaith alliance. And that's what we,

when everybody was talking about was the effort to build a rebuild coalitions across different

faith communities to stand up to this moment and to this movement. And I do see it happening.

Interfaith work has been very fraught and very difficult over the last couple of years. But I

think people are responding to the emergency of this moment and recognizing that we aren't always

going to agree on everything. And that has always been true. But this isn't the time to worry

about our own personal interfaith, internal disagreements. We have to stand together as a faith

community and provide that moral prophetic voice in this moment. How do you comfort people

in this period who are seeing what Trump is doing to our country who are worried about fascism

in the United States as I am? Yeah, I mean, as I said, it's a terrifying moment that we're in. And

you know, I'm, I read so many different political analysts Robert Reyes and Heather Cox Richards

in and you know, so many others. And I'm really heartened by the way that they hold on to hope.

It's going to get worse before it gets better, but there does seem to be for the future. And we have

to hold on to that hope. And we have to also, you know, hold on to what Joe Hill said to his father,

right, don't mourn, organize. And that's, that's the antidote to despair is hope and action.

When we're taking action, we know that we're moving the needle even a little bit.

Rabbi Bonnie Margles has been my guest on this episode of the Wisconsin Ford podcast.

Rabbi Bonnie, I wish you all the luck in your new job.

Thank you, Matt. And I'm so glad that you are flunked retirement as the many of my friends have done.

And our, and our back at the mic.

Well, I'm going to retire at some point, but I can't retire right now. It's just too,

too dicey out there. Joining me now on this Wisconsin Ford podcast is another old friend of mine,

the Reverend Walter Jack Lanier, senior pastor at the Progressive Baptist Church in Milwaukee,

pastor Lanier, welcome to the Wisconsin Ford podcast.

Thank you. Always great to be with you, Matt. Oh, likewise. Let me just start a very big picture

where we as a country right now.

We're in a crisis as an understatement.

Somewhere between crisis and chaos is where we are. The volume of chaos is so intense.

It's difficult for the everyday person to keep up. I don't think we've ever seen this

particular type of chaos from the government. We had a strong man and I'll say an evil man

and an incompetent man and minions. You call Trump an evil man.

Explain that. He does intentional harm to people. It is different. I have, as you do friends

and associates in all ranges of the political spectrum and the consequences of policies can do harm.

That's one thing, but it's different to be indifferent and seemingly to take satisfaction

in harming people. I go all the way back with Pops and my mind now is dividing up families

at the border back in the first presidency, the first traumatic experience and indifference

in a satisfaction in harming people and gaslighting people and incarcerating people,

bullying people, so that's different. That's of a different character than political

disagreement. That's different. That's an indifference at best. That's probably the kindest thing

we could say. He appears to be indifferent, but it's not. It's malice. That's his history.

And so that's evil. The intent to commit harm, and actually, as you point out,

the delight in taking harm, there is a kind of sadism there.

That's who he is. It's who he is. Satisfaction and harming people, putting him on the defensive,

marginalizing, characterizing, caricaturing, yeah, all of that. It's nasty, predictable, not

at the scale that it's at, that there would be significant backlash from the Obama presidency.

You know, that just stirred up some feelings and people and they came to the service and then

they manifested in the form of Trump won. So that's the kind of the historical, but the policy

and the ease with which he's doing it is more than frightening and the fact that we,

the collective we do not have an organized institutional pushback, not that there's none,

but there's not enough against this wave is is frightening. It's not surprising because he's

always had that anti-black bent in his being, but getting to the power seat and then doing what was

predictable. And that's how it is when you're dealing with somebody who's, you know, I said evil.

I'll stay I'll stand on that who's evil. It's different because when somebody like that, it's like

the kid in the game of thrones, Jeffrey, the little son who was just evil. He got in power and

just did obscene stuff. And so we do not have the organized mechanisms against that that I wish

that we would, whether that's party, legal, economic, it's a challenge. So it's tough. I stew on it

quite a bit about who should be doing what what can we be doing to fight back to push back to hold

the line. You've stressed and you're stressing right now the importance of coming together of

making alliances of uniting the many different groups and leaders that are trying to combat Trump

and Trumpism. How is that going for you? It is challenging. The desire is there. The interest is

there. The organizing is late. If you will, relative to where we are on the journey. So there's

organizing taking place cross culturally, cross denominationally that that's there. The desires

there. There's people on the side of justice on the side of righteousness on the side of looking

out for the least of these. But scaling up is tough one and two when you talk about Wisconsin and

Southeastern Wisconsin, because we have the long history of segregation, our systemic responses

are not as strong as they could be if we had been organized sooner or had a longer and deeper

history of working cross culturally, cross denominationally. I think that we have to

recognize what we have the capacity to do. And my brain mad I'm thinking that we need to talk about

what it means to Trump-proof Wisconsin. And are you getting support from

interfaith leaders in the Southeastern Wisconsin area on this?

Yes. I mean, you know, folks are active taking stands against Christian nationalism,

against extremism, immigration, legal cases. So there's stuff going on. But it's not easy to

it's he and it an evil and greed is not easy to fight.

No. And you mentioned Christian nationalism as a leader in the Christian community in Milwaukee.

You must encounter Christian nationalists. How do you do you have conversation with those folks? How

do you try to bring people around? What's that like? I don't others do. Let me be clear what I'm

saying here. You know, there's a limited amount of time in the day. We all know that. And some people

have that as a particular area of interest. So I support all efforts to speak out against Christian

nationalism. I'm not in converting mode. I'm in organizing mode. So I'm continuously looking

for the willing people that I can organize with. You know, we started big picture. I kind of want

to end big picture. How do you buttress people's spirits in this very alarming time or put it

in another way? Are we going to get through this? What do you know? That's a great question.

First of all, as a man of faith, as a person of faith, that's why I start. So I still

I'm deeply faithful and I'm thankful to be a person of faith now. So I'm grounded. I know

one of our colloquialisms in the church is this too shall pass.

But it's tough because all of the institutions that we would have thought would have held ground

or pushed back a Supreme Court capitulating, Justice Roberts, capitulating, Congress,

soft. So the essence of the three branches of government waxing and waning. But I thought this

during the first administration. There's this theory about democracy, about the United States,

about the greater good, about people who really love their country, waiting for them to

step in somewhere, somewhere to say this is un-American because it really is. I call the folks

on January 6th, the worst Americans. And when they were celebrated and ultimately pardoned,

that's just different. Richard Nixon stepped down. This guy got more powerful and stepped in.

So I'm just standing on hope. The one thing I do think about that is really started to kind of

turn in my being is the bow tie racial coalitions of the past. And in the past, they were just that

coalitions pushing back against violence and oppression. But now when I really, I'm not really,

really started to think about the United States as a multiracial country. And this being the last

dying gas of white supremacists thought in being. And that as we learn how to lead together.

So I think that is actually my answer to your question. I think that will be the shift. That

won't be neat and tidy. It'll be messy as democracy is. But it will also be representative of the

majority of the country. And as we learn to do that more effectively together, I think that

is likely, that's the most likely path for this country is really multi-racial coalitions.

Everybody will still have black self-interest, Hispanic self-interest, LGBTQ self-interest, white

self-interest, women self-interest. But how do we really learn how to work together? Because it's

the opposite of that, that has us where we are. The seeds of division are so easily so.

So I think, actually, I think that's it. That's what I think has to happen.

Well, and I hope you're right that this is the last dying gas of white supremacists in America.

Sure, hope so. Pastrelinear, thanks so much for your inspiring thoughts and for being on the

Wisconsin Ford podcast with me. Yep, great to be here. All right, let's get together soon.

My next guest is the Reverend David Cooper, who for the past 32 years has been a Piscopalian priest

right here in Wisconsin. Before that, he was the police chief in Madison for many, many years,

where he had photos of Martin Luther King and Gandhi behind his desk. I don't think there was

other police chief in America who did that. Reverend Cooper, thanks for being on the Wisconsin

Ford. My pleasure to be back here again. Hey, on August 2nd here in Madison, you led a faith-based

Christian rally upstate street to the Capitol to protest against white nationalism and Trump's

authoritarianism and his cruel policy toward immigrants among other bad policies. Why was that

important for you to do? Well, it doesn't get any more important than that. I don't

care if you're a person of faith or you're a person of integrity because anybody should be

absolutely perplexed, outraged. This was an explicitly Christian, I want, I'm not Christian,

but it was it was carried across. You were carrying a huge wooden cross. You and several other

of the leaders of this rally. And so what about your Christian faith impelled you to do this?

Well, it's because I think people are misunderstanding. I think a lot of what Christianity is all about.

I think, you know, even the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church recently said,

and it is true if you look back historically that many of our presidents were Episcopalians,

and he said, we can no longer be the Church of Presidents. We will become an engine of resistance.

And that's a clarion call that I think to what the teachings of Jesus are all about,

and certainly reinforced by the Hebrew Bible as well, that this is who we are. We protect people

who come to our country. People have asked me, well, we're worried to get that idea about immigrants,

who well read the Bible. You know, if there's anything central and certainly Buddhism, Christianity,

Islam, it's the welcoming, the stranger for we could once be strangers and we could once be a

need of shelter in food and clothing. And then I think, you know, by Christianity is based on

25th chapter of Matthew's Gospel, when he tells the story about a very powerful person,

and that that person, questions had looked at, wherever you when I was in need of clothing

and in drink and food and shelter. And when did you visit me when I was sick? And they said,

oh, well, you know, we certainly would have done that. And then the punchline of the parallel

is when you do this at least of those people among us, then you do it for all of us and for me.

And it's very, very personal. So if we talk about about helping people in my brand of Christianity,

it's helping people who are vulnerable because that's what Jesus told us and that's what it's all about.

It's not about being amongst the powerful. One of the reasons for the march was to protest against

white Christian nationalism. What is it about white Christian nationalism that's Christian?

That's right. That's right. It isn't. It's a form of what you believe to be patriotic and you take

sort of like like cherry picking the things that you like in your in your Bible. I think we have

to really focus on, you know, what the story of the Bible is about. You know, it's a love story.

And you take little pieces of it, it doesn't fit very well. And, you know, Jesus came and I think

many of the many of the late term people prophets as well that was very much against a state that

persecuted people. Right. Yeah. What has been the reaction to your march from other religious folks?

Well, you know, what I thought was leaders that would be supporting us and they weren't there.

So this turned out to be and a great lesson for me because I had four wonderful people that I

was working with since spring, putting together this here we stand, document about like who really

are we? What do we stand up for? And I think it was really spirit infused. This whole thing was

beyond my hopes and dreams. I'll have to tell you. I thought maybe if we're lucky, we're going to

get 20 people come up. And that's why I put a lot of pressure on 20 people I personally knew.

I'll have to admit they didn't all jump up. Hey, this is a great idea. David, when can we be there?

I heard back from about four or five. Okay. You put the arm on me. I know. That's right. That's right.

So I'm putting the arm on you. And so, so it wasn't intended to be interfaith now. It was intended

to be Christians who are safe now, safe in this society. White Christians are pretty safe here

that we could go out and protest. And I would not expect my brothers and sisters of color to do this

today or a different religious faith because it's dangerous. And you know, there were more than 20

people there. I think there were 300 at the start and more than twice that at the end. Yeah. I

think it's safe to say in my experiences with crowds over the years and hundreds of demonstrations

on stage today. We probably had between four and five hundred there. And you know, the silent

procession was very important. The huge heavy 200 plus problem cross absolutely essential, not some

little flimsy cross. And then asking folks to sign the cross and to have some some songs on

there, you know, we shall overcome. And if I were a bell, I'd regret it in the morning. And it was

great experience. I think the thing that I carried away with most people came up to me and said they

had been on anti-war marches. And they had been on anti-racism and civil rights marches.

But they'd never stood up for their faith before in a public setting. And I thought, yeah,

that's it. People are kind of embarrassed. Why? Because most people think Christians are

being spirited, homophobic, just anti-abortion, anti-abortion, you know, just judgmental people. And

why would we want to have anything to do with them? Yeah, I was surprised and pleased to see

members of other faiths. I was walking down with a Lutheran minister and there was then a group

of men and nights, men and nights for peace, men and nights for justice. Yes. It was really thrilling

to be there. And I'm an atheist Jew. And I was inviting other people who weren't

Christian to be there just because it was so important to stand up against this authoritarianism.

I mean, I even had a call from a man. He called me, he said, he said, I'm with the Madison

Neal Pagans. I said, great. It's okay. If we come and walk with you, I said, absolutely,

absolutely. And they showed up. Now, people might become outraged at that and everything. But,

you know, who wasn't said, unless we learned to live together, we're going to die together,

you know, or die separately. I think it was Dr. King said something like that, that the whole,

our whole future, I think, as a country and as a world, is to be lovingly tolerant of other people

who don't think the exact same way you do. And how are we going to get there? How are we going to

get through this really tough period? We're going to have to resist and we have to resist nonviolently.

And then we're going to have to all stand up. And we're probably going to have to,

we're probably going to have to hurt the billionaires. I mean, we're going to probably have to

shut the economy down and say, unless you change, unless you give us back our rights and our

aid to needy people in the world and health care for all of us and a decent wage. We're not

going to do this anymore. Well, I'm grateful for your leadership on that protest and your

leadership your many years with the church and your many years at the police department here in

Madison, Wisconsin. Reverend Cooper, thanks for being my guest on this Wisconsin Ford podcast.

Nice talk with the job. Well, that's it for this edition of the Wisconsin Ford podcast.

I'm Matt Rothschild and thanks for listening. I also want to thank all my guests, the Reverend

Dr. Kerry Parker, Rabbi Bonnie Margulies, Pastor Walter Jack Lanier, and the Reverend David Cooper,

who we just heard from. Also, I want to thank Dom Lee doing terrific editing and engineering

for this episode. And I also want to thank Civic Media for giving me this opportunity to share

what I know and what my guests know in this very difficult time. Please stay tuned for the next

Wisconsin Ford episode. I'll be talking with Dan Schaeffer of Civic Media and the Recombobulation

Area about the upcoming governor's race, especially the primary among the Democrats. You're not

going to want to miss that.