I'm Matt Rothschild, and welcome to this episode of the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
Today we're going to be talking about something dear to my heart, and that's conservation.
After I provide a thumbnail history of conservation in Wisconsin, I'll be joined by Tia Nelson
and Carrie Schumann, and then finally, civic media's own Todd Albaugh.
But first, a personal note.
My wife and I live on the Wabisa wetlands, and as far as the eye can see to the north of
us is protected land by the DNR and by the nature conservancy.
This preservation yields an abundance of wildlife, and I'm grateful for it every day, just as
I'm grateful for all the amazing public parks and refuges that we have across our great
state, whether it's Goose Pond or Horacan Marsh or while losing State Park or Peninsula
State Park and all parks in between.
I cherish the fact that conservation is a central value that most Wisconsinites honor.
That's one of the great things that brings us together here.
Now just a little history.
Well before Wisconsin ever became a state, tribal nations were adhering to Earth-sustaining
practices here, which they continued doing diligently up to today.
Their seven-generation philosophy of honoring the Earth and preserving it pre-saged the
modern conservation movement.
The monomony, for instance, are famous for their forest management practices, which
issued the clear cutting that was practiced so ruthlessly by the lumber companies.
Today, tribal nations in Wisconsin are protecting our land, waterways, and wetlands from red
cliff and bad river all the way down to the Hochunk and the Potawatomi.
Shortly after Wisconsin became a state, other conservationists came to the fore.
In the 1850s, for instance, a man by the name of Increase Lapam urged the state to authorize
a natural history survey before more of Wisconsin's native species became extinct.
As the state's chief geologist, Lapam warned of the devastation of our state forests, 50
years before it became a national issue, according to Wisconsin Historical Society.
In part because of his efforts, the first state park was approved in 1878 to save some of
Wisconsin's forests.
Another famous conservationist, John Muir, the father of our national park system, actually
grew up in Wisconsin and attended the University of Wisconsin in 1861, where he took a botany
course among others and made lifelong friends among UW scientists.
He later, of course, championed Yosemite and co-founded the Sierra Club.
After the era of the Robert Barons, Wisconsin's progressives championed the cause of conservation.
Here's what Fighting Bob LaFalla wrote back in 1909.
The globe is the capital stock of the race.
It is just so much coal and so much oil and gas.
These may be economized or wasted.
Our forests have been destroyed.
They must be restored.
Our soils are being depleted.
They must be conserved.
These questions he added are not of this day only or of this generation only, they belong
to all the future.
Wise words from Fighting Bob.
Aldo Leopold, who is a professor at the UW, certainly understood this.
In his Sand County Almanac, published in 1949, he wrote,
the land ethics simply enlarges the boundaries of the community to include soils, water,
plants, and animals, or collectively the land.
In short, he said a land ethic changes the role of homo sapiens from conqueror of the
land community to plain member and citizen of it.
It implies respect for his fellow members and also respect for the community as such.
Other Wisconsin conservationists that I admire include Leopold students, Frederick and
Francis Hammerstrom, who did so much to study and preserve the habitat of the Prairie
Chicken in Central Wisconsin.
I remember as a kid, my father drove us up near Stevens Point where we stayed the night
and then we were taken to a blind at four in the morning to watch the Prairie chickens
on their mating grounds.
That was all thanks to the Hammerstroms and you can still go to those blinds any spring
and see the mating ritual.
I also want to give a shout out to the great bird painter Owen Gramey.
As a little boy in the suburbs of Chicago, I remember pouring over his giant birds of
Wisconsin book that my folks had and dreaming about seeing them all one day, now that I've
been in Wisconsin for 45 years, I'm proud to say I've seen most of them.
Of course, no discussion of conservation in Wisconsin could leave out Gaylord Nelson,
the senator and governor who did so much for our state and our country on this issue.
It's not for nothing he's called the father of Earth Day.
Here's Gaylord Nelson in his own words, talking in 1970 about the philosophy behind the
first Earth Day.
It's tremendously encouraging to see all across this country the remarkable interest on
the campuses and off the campuses on an issue, which is not only just an issue of survival
but an issue of how we survive.
I don't think there's any other issue viewed in its broadest sense, which is as critical
to mankind as the issue of the quality of the environment in which we live.
You hear the word ecology, that's a big science, not an arrow one, it's a big concept and
it is concerned with all the ramifications of all the relationships, of all living creatures
to each other and their environment.
It is concerned with the total ecosystem, not just how we dispose of tin cans, bottles
in our garbage.
It is concerned with a habitat of marine creatures, animals, birds and man.
And our goal is not just an environment of clean air and water.
Our goal is an environment of decency, quality and mutual respect for all human beings and
all other living creatures.
I'm fortunate to have in the studio with me right now, Gailor Nelson's daughter, Tia
Nelson, a great conservationist in her own right.
She's worked for the Nature Conservancy for many years and she served for quite a while
as the Executive Secretary of the Wisconsin Board of Commissioners of Public Lands.
Tia Nelson, welcome to the Wisconsin Forward Podcast.
Oh, good morning, Matt, it's great to be here.
Great to have you.
I got to ask, what was it like to have Gailor Nelson as a dad?
Oh, well, it was a great privilege and joy.
It was a great father and a very funny man.
I felt also a sense of duty.
Both my parents were extraordinary public servants in their own way.
Mom was a nurse and dad was in a public office all my life.
So that's all I knew.
He was a state senator when I was born and elected governor when I was two.
And he was a happy, amiable, effective, honorable leader and it's a lot to live up to sometimes.
Well, you lived up to it.
You spent your entire adult life on this cause of protecting our environment and fighting
for conservation and raising the alarm about climate change.
So what's that been like for you?
I've done my best.
I joke to someone this might not be suitable for the show, but being born Gailor Nelson
since daughters, like winning the lottery and didn't do anything to deserve it,
don't think it hasn't occurred to me.
I could have been born Richard Nixon's daughter and I'd have a lot more explaining to do.
Oh, and I'm glad you weren't born Richard Nixon's daughter.
That was a lot of weight to carry.
I mentioned for those daughters.
Yeah, though, I hastened to add Richard Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency
shortly after the first Earth Day.
So he does have some redeeming qualities.
And did your father and get along with Richard Nixon on?
I know your dad was a strong opponent of the Warren Vietnam and Laos.
No, my father was on Nixon's top 10 enemy list.
Not surprised.
You chose to not stay in Washington cause you must have spent a lot of your time in Washington
as a young person and to come back to Wisconsin.
Why was that important to you?
Well, I had spent 17 years with the Nature Conservancy working on a variety of conservation
initiatives and then becoming director, a global director of the Climate Change Program.
And so I traveled the world advocating for global collaboration and action on climate
change.
And I just, I got to a point where I wanted to come home to my roots and sort of wrap
my arms around some local forests and the Public Lands Commission job opened up and was
a beautiful opportunity to come home and spend a lot of time in the Northwoods, which
is one of my favorite places in the world for all of my travels.
So tell me a little bit about what you value here in Wisconsin, the public lands, the
public parks.
I mean, one of the great things about this data is people can go and enjoy the outdoors
here in so many different places and it's just so wonderful.
Yeah, you know, I was preparing a Earth Day talk last month and looking at some of my
materials in July of 1962, the full front page of the National Boding Magazine was an image
of my father, a map of Wisconsin, and it said all eyes on Wisconsin, the nation eyes,
Wisconsin's outdoor plans, Governor Nelson's ambitious program captures the imagination
of the country.
So this was the predecessor to the Knowles Nelson Sewer Chip fund.
It was called the outdoor recreation action program funded with a penny impact cigarette
tax.
It was so wildly popular, not just in Wisconsin, but across the country that others sought
to replicate it.
And this resulted in my father being earning the moniker, the conservation governor.
What's interesting to me is that in 1989, Republican governor Tommy Thompson created the Knowles
Nelson Sewer Chip fund, named after Warren Knowles, Republican governor who succeeded
in my father and my dad.
And it's been a wildly successful, not just in protecting lands and waters and the places
that make Wisconsin special, but as a significant economic driver in the state.
And Tommy has joked to me privately and boasted publicly about how proud he is of the
stewardship fund.
And the fact that he said to me, this was a few years ago, he said, I've protected
more land in Wisconsin than your father had.
And he was governor much longer than my father was, is one of the answers to that question.
But he's also publicly expressed great pride in it.
You know, we've had 30 years of bipartisan support for protecting the places that make
Wisconsin special and it's an investment in our future and has had, you know, sustained
bipartisan support.
We've got 50 state parks, got Devils Lake, not far from here, a peninsula state park
up in Door County.
These are significant economic drivers in those communities.
And the stewardship fund, Governor Evers, is doing a lot to support and try to shore
up, isn't he?
Yes, he's included significant funding for the stewardship fund in his budget.
I would encourage your listeners to write their legislators, express their support for
it.
Reach out to your local land trusts, reach out to gathering waters or the nature conservancy
or Wisconsin conservation voters, find out what you can do to help shore up support and
ensure that we get a strong bill this year.
Is there a favorite state park or county park or city park that you'd like to escape
to?
Well, my favorite state park is the one named after my dad here in just outside of Addison
on Lake Mendoza.
That's Governor Nelson State Park and I love hiking there.
That's restored Oaks of Anna Prairie.
It's quite beautiful.
A lot of bluebirds there, too.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they've put up a lot of nest.
They're doing a lot of good management there.
But I love the northwards.
I've very fond memories of being up there with my dad and my his friends and kicking
around the northwards.
And then it's not a state park, but I, the Possil Island National Lakeshore is a very
special place to me and George W. Bush designated 19 of those 22 islands, the Gaylord Nelson
wilderness area.
And I go up there every summer solstice.
It's my birthday.
Oh, it's beautiful up there.
Yeah, yeah.
I love it.
T. N. Nelson, thanks so much for viewing my guest here on the Wisconsin Ford podcast.
It's been great talking with you.
Oh, it's been my pleasure.
Thanks, man.
With me now is Carrie Schuman, the longtime executive director of the Wisconsin Conservation
Voters.
Carrie, welcome to the Wisconsin Ford Podcast.
Thanks for having me, Matt.
Oh, let's just get personal wise.
Conservation is so important, too.
Well, I think originally when I started doing this work a long time ago, as you said,
it was really about people, the fact that there are so many people who can't turn on their
tap and be able to drink the water out of it is just appalling to me.
It's absolutely appalling.
The fact that we're breathing dirty air and kids are getting asthma.
I think over time that has not changed, but I've added to it and that I look at this
planet we live on and think, holy cow, did we win the jackpot?
I mean, if you think about it, of all the things that had to come together in order for us
to exist as humans and to have the incredible environment we have, just kind of blows my
mind.
In Wisconsin's kind of a jackpot, upon the jackpot, too.
Exactly.
When you think about it, we have such a short growing season, for example.
This is one of the things I always kind of shines for me about Wisconsin.
And you put a seed in the ground right after it thaws and three months later, you have
tomatoes.
It's just kind of an amazing thing to me.
Is there a favorite outdoor place you like to go in Wisconsin, above all?
Oh, there's so many.
Really any place that has a lot of sandhill cranes makes me happy.
I love sandhill cranes.
You know, I hear them every morning because we're on the Wabisa, wetland.
So when they come in mid-February now, sometimes late January, sometimes January, yeah, yeah.
Actually, some cranes stayed through Christmas a couple of winners ago because it was so warm.
And I thought they were going to stay the whole winter, but they eventually left, but they
came back early.
They came back like three weeks later.
Yeah.
Where did they go?
They must have gone to southern Illinois.
Illinois.
Some things in Illinois are okay.
So let's talk policy for a second.
You were executive director at Wisconsin Conservation Voters during the Walker regime.
As I like to call it, they did a lot of nasty things to the environment and to conservation.
Do you want to spell out a couple of those and where they stand now?
Yeah.
So I mean, I think one of the things I would point to because it's relevant right now is that
so much of what we're seeing Trump do in the federal administration, Walker did hear first.
So he gutted the Department of Natural Resources.
So many decades of scientific experience was just lost.
So that's one example.
He changed the way that we pass policy through the legislature in a way that gives power
to very few people as opposed to a much more larger populist process that Wisconsin has
been known for for years.
So he also did things like got rid of the high speed rail plan, which anyone who has to
go back and forth between Madison, Milwaukee is really unhappy about.
So he did a lot of very tangible things, but I actually think the process things are what's
kind of putting us in trouble now because we are still struggling to regain our footing
and we lost decades and decades of environmental protection.
And also for me, living on the Wabisa wetlands, his wetlands policy change was pretty dramatic,
allowing wetlands to be paved over so long as I think the people paving them over or the
companies paving them over created a wetlands somewhere else or so called wetlands somewhere
else.
But those created wetlands can't be as great for the environment as the long established
wetlands that there are.
That's right.
So you could look at any area and he got it something or other or many things, whether
it was clean energy, set us way back, we are one of the most fossil fuel dependent states,
set us way back when it comes to clean energy.
He set us back when it comes to air quality.
He set us back when it comes to our democracy.
He set us back when it comes to land protection.
Our Knowles Nelson's Georgia program, that program has been struggling ever since the
Walker administration.
That's the program that protects lands so that everyone can use it.
Protects lands and buys new lands and buys new lands exactly and also state parks.
The funding for state parks got depleted, which was outrageous, I think, because our state
parks are one of the great things about Wisconsin.
That's exactly right.
Now how has Governor Tony Evers responded on issues of conservation?
Yeah.
So Governor Evers has had a really ambitious vision for Wisconsin.
He right away first term came out swinging saying we need to get to 100% clean energy.
That is back then we said it was the future.
Frankly, now it's the present and yet Wisconsin is still behind.
But he pulled together this really diverse task force.
There was everything from utilities to farmers to people like me on that task force.
And we came up with the blueprint, here's how we get to clean energy.
He also has had just an incredibly ambitious plan for safe drinking water and clean water.
This year, actually, he proposed in the budget almost a billion dollars of funding to get
things like lead pipes taking care of, to deal with PFAS pollution, which is there are
several communities in Wisconsin that have no drinking water because of this incredibly
toxic contaminant called PFAS.
So he's been really ambitious.
The struggle he has is the Republicans in the legislature led by mostly Robin Voss have
just tried to stop him every single step of the way.
After no, Robin Voss, that's right.
But it's important for him, the governor, to have come out so boldly, put the flag down
saying this is what we stand for, I think that's been great leadership on his part.
It's been phenomenal leadership, absolutely.
What is the biggest conservation issue on your agenda right now?
I think the two things I would point to are safe drinking water and clean energy again.
So there are a bunch of proposals at the Public Service Commission to put in new polluting
gas plants.
So build new fossil fuel infrastructure, which, first of all, takes forever to build.
Secondly, is really, really, really expensive, and third, the people who pay for that are
us.
It's the utility customers.
It's the people who, it's all of us who have electricity, which is all of us.
We end up paying for it.
And a perfect example of this is we energies, which is the eastern southeast part of the
state.
Their customers are still paying for a coal plant that had to be shut down because it created
too much pollution.
They're still paying for years after it was shut down, whereas if we move away from fossil
fuel, and we, the Public Service Commission says no to these gas plant proposals which
they should, we can focus more on wind siding and solar, and really having clean energy
sources that cost less, they're better for our health, and they're better for our pocket
books.
They're what people in the state need.
I'm seeing more and more wind farms and solar farms when I'm driving around Wisconsin.
That does seem to be the future, doesn't it?
Yeah.
And in other states, it's the present.
I really should be the present.
You know, when you drive through Iowa, for example, and see all the wind turbines, you
know, as you drive along the highway, we are behind.
We're actually very behind in the state.
And how hopeful are you that we're going to catch up?
Well, I think what it comes down to and what Wisconsin conservation voters, a big piece
of our work is we need to elect people who are pro-environment, pro-public health, pro-democracy
to the legislature next year.
2026 is going to be a big year, and hopefully we come out of it with a trifecta, trifecta
of folks who are going to fight for the environment.
And I think that's the core of it.
We have to be set up to win in 2026.
Well, I'm off for that.
Thanks so much for being my guest today, Carrie, and the Wisconsin Ford podcast.
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
Now I want to welcome my next guest, Todd Alba, the terrific host of the Todd Alba
show, which airs across the Civic Media Radio Network from two to four PM Mondays through
Fridays.
Todd, thanks for coming on.
Always a pleasure just to chill out with Matt Ross's child, and I appreciate you being
here.
Ask me to be here.
Pleasure is all mine.
On your show, you're always looking for issues that bridge the ideological chasms here
in Wisconsin.
I got to believe that conservation is one of those.
Certainly used to be.
What do you think?
Well, I absolutely agree with you on that.
I know you talked earlier to Tia Nelson, and we had her on our show for Earth Day.
Of course, her dad covered Gaylord Nelson, last US Senator as well, founder of Earth Day.
And what I love about Tia, not only is she brilliant and smart and thoughtful and articulate,
but she's a pragmatist, and she understands, of course, growing up literally in politics.
From her dad, who I think most people would put in the, obviously, Democrat, but progressive
category, but she has made the point time and again that the achievements of her dad
would not have been possible without Republican help along the way.
Certainly a different time, different Republican party that we have today.
But she also talks fondly about former Republican Wisconsin governor Tommy Thompson, who likes
to brag that he actually signed more land into in the conservation than her dad.
And she doesn't mind giving credit to Tommy for that.
Growing up in Southwest Wisconsin and in Richland Center, I think it was just my grandparents
were farmers, and I actually think it was like, this was a cargill commercial years ago.
It said, we're not, we're not environmentalists.
We're conservation is concerned about the environment or something like that.
But I think it's a good, I think people in rural Wisconsin, you know this, Matt, I don't
think they're better conservators of the land than farmers because if the land is bad and
doesn't produce crops, they're not going to make any money.
So I do think that it's one of those issues that should bring people together.
No, you mentioned Tommy Thompson.
There were other Republicans in more recent memory who protected the environment when they
were in elected office, your former boss Dale Schultz, Republican majority leader Rob
Coles, up in the Green Bay area, once got an award from Wisconsin conservation voters.
Are there still Republicans in office who championed the environment here in Wisconsin?
Boy, you know, I don't want to be too much of a pessimist.
I'll simply say, I'm sad to say, I left Republican Party in 2011.
I just don't think that it's a top of mind issue for them right now in the current iteration
of the mockery Republican Party, and that makes me enormously sad.
I think it's really, I appreciate you bringing up my former boss, Dale Schultz, because
I've talked to some Democrats around 30 years old and I'm 55, so I'm the old guy now.
But they had never heard this story.
You know it obviously, but for your listeners, perhaps quick version, Dale Schultz, when he
was first elected at the assembly of the 80s, was considered a very conservative Republican
at the time.
And there was a guy named Spencer Black, who represented Madison and the Isthmus, who
was considered one of the most liberal progressive Democrats in the assembly at the time.
And they came together and were able to convince Tommy Thompson to say, hey, if we can get this
done where you sign it into law, and he kind of agreed.
Now it took many years, lots of consternation, but Dale Schultz and Spencer Black authored
the Law of Wisconsin Riverway bill.
It just celebrated its 35th anniversary of protecting the Law of Wisconsin Riverway.
Dale Schultz, in his last term, I was his chief of staff at the time, got an award from
the Sierra Club for his efforts in that in addition to standing up against mining legislation
during the Walker administration.
It just shows you that someone who might be considered one way 20 years later can end up
being a champion for the environment.
I'm not saying I can't name you, somebody from today's Republican party in Wisconsin
that might be that person, but I really am hopeful.
And you mentioned Scott Walker.
He defunded the state parks, he had a really nasty policy on wetlands, allowing developers
just to pave over wetlands if they'll create an imaginary wetland somewhere else, which
isn't a real wetland.
He had a lot of other bad environmental policies.
It seems like the Republican Party post-walker and under Trump is just not interested in
these issues, doesn't that leave a huge amount of territory for the Democrats, isn't it
foolish politically?
Yeah, I absolutely do.
And nobody knows Democrats ask in Todd for advice of a Republican.
But if they did, I would say go at it more from the conservation aspect.
And that's what TNLson talked about on Earth they are, so, is that, hey, if you're a hunter
or a fisher or a trapper, you should be concerned about conservation.
And I would try to find more common ground with folks across Wisconsin on those issues rather
than making your face card.
We have to stop the corporations from polluting the water, which, I also believe that's also
a big deal.
But I think it's, you get more, I don't know, you capture more flies, honey than vinegar,
as they say.
I think find the common ground first, and then maybe people go, oh, wait, there's a link
to the corporations who are polluting the water and why I can't take my fish home and
eat them.
I think that's a better route to go.
And personal note, you've been traveling all over the state and you enjoy the outdoors.
What's your favorite outdoor activity or favorite outdoor place in Wisconsin?
Favorite place was my home farm on the ridges of Southwest Wisconsin.
I mean, that's, you know, that's my favorite place.
Late, or even the last five, six years, I got into kayaking with long time friends of mine.
And we go, we go kayaking all over the creeks and streams and streams, but rivers in Wisconsin.
I love it.
It's, it's just, it relaxes me so kayaking, love to hike, you know, devil's lake obviously
is kind of cliche, but it's a great, great state park.
And I like to tent when I can find time and just, you know, you don't mind sleeping outdoors.
No, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm outdoors guy.
You know, the kids, Matt, the kids, they say touch grass, you know, you got to touch grass.
And they're right.
Look to the youth, Matt.
They will lead the way.
I don't know.
I'm a little too old for that myself.
But Matt's idea of touching grass is a motel six.
I need it.
I need to motel them.
Give me a bit.
Anyway, Tom, I'll thank so much for joining me on this episode.
Appreciate it, Matt.
I'd also like to thank Carrie Schumann and Tia Nelson for appearing on this podcast.
And above all, I'd like to thank Sam Davison for producing every single episode of the
Wisconsin Ford podcast up to now, but this will be his last show because he's setting
out to become a teacher.
Or as my dad used to say, he's going to go do God's work.
I wish Sam all the best and I'm really grateful for all his great job producing this podcast.
I'll be back with another podcast soon exploring civic media's pro-democracy agenda.
So keep your eyes and your ears open for that one.
I'm Matt Rothschild and thanks for listening.
