“Extremism Has Hit The Wall” with Dale Schultz (Hour 1)

Live from the Civic Media World Headquarters in Madison, Wisconsin, it's the Todd Alba Show.

And now, pursuing truth wherever it may lead, here's your host, Todd Alba.

Across Wisconsin on the Civic Media radio network and streaming worldwide on the Civic Media app,

Good afternoon, everybody.

I'm Tom Allbaugh, along with the fantastic engineer-producer, Mr. Zommers, on the board.

It is six past the hour of 12 noon on this Wednesday, April 2nd, 2025.

It is Wednesday.

It is a great day to be Wisconsinite, and it is... Hump Day!

There we go.

A wet but happy camel on a hump day.

April 2nd, the day after Wisconsin's general election here in the state.

Zombers we had a late night last night.

We were here with our friend Dan Schaefer and many others some election coverage Then what six hours seven hours.

I've seen you something like that something like that.

Yeah, well more than more than that.

We weren't here 12.

Yeah, yeah, ish.

How are you doing doing?

Well, you know, I slept a lot better than I thought I might last night Given the results of the election

What just because you were so elated or just

Well, I just mean I I didn't know how it was gonna go right and so the way it went I was able to rest easy

got it

got it

got it.

No, I think that was the case for a lot of folks as we were monitoring you know, we had our great team of of reporters and I want to give them a shout out because I mean Schaefer and I got to sit here but behind the desk and behind the microphones and in front of the cameras

But so many other people were out there around doing stuff.

You had Savannah Toby Olson at the Susan Crawford campaign.

You had Melissa Kay at the Brad Shibble campaign.

Derek Tritz at the Underly campaign.

And James Kelly at the Kinzer campaign.

And then of course you had yourself and all the other engineers and people behind the scenes.

So a big shout out to them to help us out with our election coverage last night.

In case you, I guess, work through the third shift or whatever.

Give you the updated results here of the two big races well three I guess from last night in the title card bout it was Judge Susan Crawford over Judge Brad Schimmel 55% to 45% with 95% of the votes and precincts now reporting 1,300 to 1,128

to $1,063,244, as they say in He-Haw, salute.

So Crawford wins the Supreme Court race in the Superintendent of Public Instruction race.

It was the incumbent, Dr. Jill Underly, with 52.9% of the vote, and her competitor, Brittany Kinzer, the education consultant with 47.1%.

Raw totals vote totals try that again Todd 95% of the votes in it was under the 1,148451 and Kinzer 1,022,350 And on the voter ID requirement to amend the Constitution to amend it for a law which already exists It was the yes vote 62.8% the no vote 37 point

2%.

Those are the vote totals.

There are other races around the state of Wisconsin.

By the way, La Crosse, the city of La Crosse, elected both their first black mayor and openly LGBTQ mayor in La Crosse.

So I think that's noteworthy as well.

Here to break it all down with, oh, by the way, big show today, Zomers.

At the bottom of the hour, one of my former bosses, former Senate Majority Leader, Dale Schultz.

He'll be here to talk a little bit about the election and his takes on that from a rural perspective.

In hour number two, then, we have John Roach, the great filmmaker, our friend, we call him a Renaissance man.

He is back in the program today at 1.30 to talk about his new film called A Road at Night, a powerful film.

on former Wisconsin Badger basketball player and coach Howard Moore, who of course endured that tragedy just a few years ago.

He and his family were hit by head-on by a drunk driver.

His wife and daughter were killed on that accident.

He and his son survived, and then during his recovery, coach Moore had a stroke, which is left in wheelchair bound.

But there's also just a lot of hope in the story.

Yes, it's tragic, it'll bring you to tears, but it's so well done.

And John Roche will be here.

That film was going to be, by the way, shown at the Barrymore Theater this weekend, Sunday night at 7 p.m.

As part of the Wisconsin Film Festival, I believe there are still tickets available.

So Roche will join us in hour number two.

And of course, your chance to win an hour two Milwaukee Brewers tickets today with our break into spring text to win contest and also what's worse.

But what's better?

Is our friend, our ongoing contributor, a River Falls native, a former Republican like myself and now a senior advisor at the Lincoln Project, joining us from outside the nation's capital in Washington, D.C.?

Trigvie Olson.

Trigvie, how are you?

I'm good, Todd.

How are you doing today?

I'm great.

I'm great.

We, uh, Zombers and I got to work together a little bit last night along with Dan Schaefer and others covering the race.

And, uh, I'm going to jump right into it because as we, you and I traveled around the state or what makes Wisconsin great tours last summer and fall, you said of the fall race, you know what, Todd?

If democracy comes down to the voters of our gobs down to one state, there's nobody I'd rather have it in the hands of than Wisconsin.

Wisconsin came up a little short in the fall, but by golly rebounded and came through last night.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously it did.

I just think, you know, there's a piece of Wisconsin that doesn't like an outsider coming in and talking to do.

I think you could make an argument and we saw some of this in our data that I talked about last week.

there was a sense that even amongst some shimmel voters that Crawford was the one who was being unfairly attacked and it was pretty substantial.

And so I think that that's important.

I think the national narrative that Elon Musk, that it was all a referendum on Musk, I'm not, you know, so I think it's a little more complicated than that.

And I don't know if you want me to talk about that

in an hour or you want to go into that later.

That's what I love about your

For those that don't know what trick me, he is a nuanced guy, fun guy to hang around, but you also just have a brain and a sense for numbers and digging into this stuff and seeing what isn't always apparent.

And that's where the great thing is all about discussions with you.

So break it down a little bit.

What hasn't been reported?

What isn't being talked about that you feel people should know?

Yeah, so.

So the national narrative that you're hearing a lot on the MSNBCs and sort of the post-mortem on the left is that, and I think it's kind of a cheap narrative because it's easy.

It doesn't require a lot of thinking as this was all a referendum on Mosk.

Elon Mosk is not a particularly popular guy in the state of Wisconsin, but among certain faculties and certain people, particularly mega people, actually he is quite popular and well liked.

It's just that the majority don't like him.

To suggest that it was just a referendum on Musk and Musk spending money probably isn't fully it.

I think with the base of the party, you either love Elon or you hate Elon.

And the people who love Elon, we're going to vote for Shimmel.

And the people who hate Elon, we're going to vote for Crawford.

It's a lot more nuanced with people in the middle.

I think it is.

In part, they don't really like Elon either, but it's also the actions that are happening that they're uncomfortable with.

And those are the voters that really provided the margins for Crawford.

And in the reason she ran three points ahead of the state superintendent race, which kind of like the base of where the election would stand, because no one knew who either of those

candidates were.

gloss over what you just said there.

Break down a little bit more, if you can, for us, Trevi, what you meant by that, that there's some nuance there.

What are those nuances?

Yes, so the nuance, Todd, is this.

I think the people that were villainately pro or anti-mosque were already pre-baked into how they were going to

vote.

people who were not, who were looking at it, were uncomfortable with Musk, but they also had the sort of uncomfortable with the tariffs, uncomfortable with Doge, uncomfortable with a lot of different things.

And so I think is people dig into the data of what happened where you have people who voted for Trump last fall and

you know, maybe Tammy Baldwin or people who voted for Trump and Havdi, but then switched to Crawford.

What you're going to see is those are people who are uncomfortable with Musk, but they weren't voting just on Musk.

It's more they're really concerned about where things are headed.

And Elon is representative of those.

It's not about him as a person.

Whereas with the ones who are more partisan, it's just Elon's polarizing.

Do you think they're concerned lies and the national narratives of where things are going?

Like I said, the tariffs and that sort of thing, or do you think it's more localized in Wisconsin with, for instance, people who are concerned and not just women, because there are certainly men too, people who are concerned with the women's reproductive rights?

Do you think they're concerned with that or is it a hybrid?

No, I mean, I think it's a combination of both.

I would guess, though, that it's more sort of broader, uncomfort.

Sorry, discomfort with sort of the general gut feeling of the direction in which things are headed.

And I think, remember, when we make choices, there's really four foundational elements to how we make choices as people, but one of them is we're relating it to what we know.

And so I think there is

some segment of the population who are like, here were what my expectations were for Donald Trump.

That's probably why I voted for him.

This isn't what I'm getting.

Things seem worse today than they were when I cast my vote in November.

Elon Musk is doing what he's doing.

I really don't like that guy.

I don't like that Trump's letting him do that.

Now he's here spending all kinds of money.

I want to talk about... I'll send a message.

I want to talk about the candidates for a second.

A couple of things.

You know, you were on early on and we had Judge Crawford on here and you were talking about, you know, I'm hoping that you stand up to do these attacks, much like Tammy Baldwin did.

And she did too.

She ran a couple of ads saying that, you know- Yeah, she did.

That shimbles the line about my record.

That's not who I am.

And I thought that made a difference.

I also, and I'm not a big one saying that debates make a big difference in campaigns, but I think this debate, I watched the whole thing with our friend Pat Krightlow and Dan Schaefer here, our political editor.

She really came out as the alpha candidate in that.

She was decisive.

She was well prepared.

She answered questions, questions honestly.

And I thought the question that was asked by Smith, by the way, the one of the moderators, give us an example of a decision you made on the bench that disappointed your supporters.

And Crawford did it and did it well.

Shibble said, I just can't think of anything.

I think that was those two things.

I think we're a turning point.

What do you think?

45 seconds.

Well, probably said a lot about her versus him.

I can't think of anything I ever did wrong.

There's a little bit.

There's a Harris-esque-ness to Schimmel's answer on that, right?

Like, I can't think of anything we'd change.

Right.

It's like, really, dude?

You're that guy at the bar?

I think Brad Schimmel is that guy at the bar, though, actually.

I wouldn't do anything different.

Regrets?

I have none.

Even Sinatra had a few.

All right, exactly.

He was Frank.

Right.

All right, come on back more.

Trigme after this.

You're listening to the Todd Allball Show right here for a Wednesday on the Civic Media.

Ready number.

Welcome

back to 80s Live on the Civic Media Radio Network.

Zawar is what do you what do you what do you dial up there?

Well before the show Todd

was singing a little bit of it must have been love by

Roxette Roxanne is that where

she was

at?

Oh, Roxette.

Roxette.

I

thought she got a job anyway.

Roxette.

They're Swedish.

Well, I asked for that because I have that song in my mind because I mean for a lot of people drinking in Wisconsin voters

You know, it's all over now.

We don't have a huge election now for a couple of years.

We can relax a little bit finally.

So I

think that's just to weight off people's shoulders.

I wouldn't pick that song to represent anything, Todd.

If you're going to go with 80s music, that's about as low as you can

go with Rockset.

The next Zommerz is going to be playing The Look by Rockset, which is amazing that you could actually have a song that's worse than it must have been loved, but Rockset somehow did actually chart with a song that is worse than it must have been loved.

I played that song in vinyl.

You could have done like good times by Sheik Zahmers or you could have done just can't get enough by the Pesh mode or... Hey, hey, hey.

It's from 87 by the way.

Zahmers.

1987.

On Wednesdays.

On Wednesdays.

Todd should not be picking the music.

You could make the case that he should hire me instead of having me be a volunteer, or I could just be a volunteer for all five days of the week.

We have no budget.

Don't worry.

We'd definitely go up, but on Wednesdays, you can't go with a raw or rock

set.

All right.

The critique of my music.

Maybe we could get take

on me next.

The critique here of my music, Trigvielsen, senior advisor at the Lincoln Project joins us now.

He is the Charles Barkley of the Civic Media Ready Network, and we love him for it.

I am.

I am.

That's true.

I

am.

Big Chuck and I got a lot in common, I'm guessing.

You would have a good time out on the town.

I would love to see that.

And you know people, you should be able to set that up.

I

bet the ladies would like us too.

Probably.

Um, we're talking about the race last night in Wisconsin, the big supreme court race, Susan Crawford, defeating Brad Schimmel, 55% to 45%.

I thought one of the important parts of the evening trig V is that what the results and it didn't take long.

It wasn't even an hour.

It was within minutes of the race being called Brad Schimmel called Susan Crawford and conceded.

And I want to play the part where he came out before his supporters.

at Wauwatosa and told them this, I want you to hear the crowd's reaction and then Judge Shibble's reaction.

We did it.

You did all the work.

You put all your heart into it.

And I can't thank you enough for everything you did to try to make this a success, but it just didn't work.

And yeah, I've called Judge Crawford.

Oh,

it cuts off there.

But he went on to say, no, no, no, when, when you lose, you have to accept the results.

And I thought that was, you know, it used to be a tragedy that was just a given, but given today's climate and politics and integrity in an election, I thought that was one of the most important parts of the evening.

Yeah, I take back what I said about him.

He isn't that guy in the bar.

He

at least acknowledges the law and he accepts the results and he calls his opponent and concedes and

he tells his supporters.

He deserves a ton of credit for that.

And he deserves for calling out his people.

I get it.

People are disappointed.

Stakes get amped up.

But at the end of the day, honestly, sun's gonna come up.

It's exactly what I said in election night.

You're like, what happens tomorrow?

I said, the sun comes up in the east, Tom.

Yeah.

No, you and I

both been through

election night wins.

We also been through our share of election night losses.

And this way it goes.

And you gotta move forward.

You know, McCain

used to have a great line about that.

What did John McCain say to you?

You know what it was?

What?

He'd be like, he would say, you know what, Tom?

It's always darkest before it goes totally black.

That is a great McCain line.

You guys make me laugh.

I don't know why, but it really did.

I'm like, man, I saw his darks before the dawn.

He's like, no, it isn't size darkest before it goes totally back.

But last night there was some light.

855-752-4842.

Let's go quickly to the West Coast.

L.A.

Tom tuning in.

L.A., thanks for calling.

If you can make a brief, go ahead.

Absolutely.

First off, you guys, thank you to Civic Media and the stage wall.

I'll tell you what, if it was just all conservative radio,

Um, like it was years ago, you

wouldn't

have an opposing or a actual truth with facts type radio.

So thank you civic media.

I think you really made a difference and being all around the state now, um, is really making a difference in terms of people that want actually intelligent radio.

Um, trivia, I had a question for you.

You know what waste is?

No, what?

Waste is spending over a million dollars.

election on a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin or any type of race Democrats 100 million in power.

Yeah, 100 million.

What did I say?

You said a million hundred million.

Yeah, 100 million Republicans and Democrats in power must get money out of politics.

I know it's a conservative Supreme Court with citizens united that brought us here and it is their sandbox and we unfortunately have to play in it.

But enough is enough.

We need to get all

money, we need to get all lobbyists, we need to get all the money out of politics and restore government back to we the people rather than to these corporations and oligarchs.

Um, can we, do you think that's something that Democrats and Republicans from the race last night, um, can agree upon this

45 seconds?

I hate to, I don't think so.

I mean, I think, I mean, Russ Feingold and John McCain tried.

But the reality is they ran into people on both sides of their parties, apparatuses that knocked them down.

I think the system is what the system is.

It is highly imperfect.

And the idea that you'd spend $100 million on a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin is crazy, right?

But it just kind of is what it is.

It's

unfortunate.

L.A.

Tom brings up

public funding for elections.

I mean, I'm for that, but I agree.

I mean, we had that for presidential elections.

And then I mean, it was Barack Obama who decided to not go with.

Come on back.

My former boss, Dale Schultz on the other side, talking about the race in Southwest Wisconsin and civic media.

Each day you've got to stand for something Or you'll fall for anything You've got to be your own man Not a puppet on a string And never compromise what's right And uphold your family name Or you've got to stand for something Or you'll fall for anything

Welcome back to the title ball show of the Civic Media Ready Network.

34 minutes now past the hour of 12 noon on April 2nd.

It is a Wednesday.

Glad to have you along in the title ball show here.

Zomer is dialing up a little.

You got to stand for something.

Well, a lot of voters in Wisconsin stood up, did the right thing.

And Trig V. Olsen, senior advisor at the Lincoln Project, joins us every Wednesday at this time.

We're always appreciative.

He is in just outside the nation's capital of Washington, D.C.

and pleased to welcome in with us

One of my former bosses, former Senate Majority Leader, Republican Dale Schultz joins us from his home in Southwest Wisconsin in Richland Center, a guy who also stood for something.

Dale, we appreciate you being here.

And for those that don't know Dale, he loves his farm and we had to pull him away because he's doing lots of work out there on the farm.

So Dale, thank you for making the sacrifice and coming on the show.

Well Todd, it certainly is a pleasure to be here, but I have to be honest and say mucking around in the rain on a cold rainy day.

wasn't much competition, but it'll be sunny again and we'll get building that building.

So not so much a favor to Todd, but I just had nothing else to do over lunch.

I appreciate that.

Well, gotta speak the truth.

That's right.

Uh, first of all, before we get into it, a couple of texts off the text line.

This is very important from our listener and WGBW in Depeer.

And it says, Todd, are we going to get the apology from you?

For the race not being close, as you stated yesterday when urging everyone to get out and vote, or was this win considered quote unquote close?

I appreciate this, this text because I said yesterday, get out and vote.

I said, I promise you this is going to be absolutely close.

And if it isn't, I'll apologize.

I'll apologize because a 10 point win in Wisconsin is a landslide.

And, uh, you know, I think.

I was just too concerned from a lot of things I was hearing and seeing.

I thought it would be a closer race than it was.

I'm glad I was wrong.

I am glad to apologize.

I don't regret getting help and get people out to vote.

But yes, I'll give you an apology to the listener there in Green Bay because I thought it would be a closer than it was.

Dale did the results.

I mean, you've seen it.

You've pretty much seen everything in your political career.

Did the results surprise you at all?

No, I don't think so.

I think it was clear as we got closer and closer to election that the Lincoln project was right that the momentum was behind Crawford.

She was an exceptional candidate and I think what gets lost in all the what who did what to who sort of discussion you have after an election.

The candidate is really everything and I think she

is going to be a suitable replacement for Ann Walsh Bradley, somebody who is well known in Richland Center and well known to me, who I think was a very good jurist.

And I wish Susan all the best.

We've got a lot of things to fix in the state.

The court has a big agenda.

And, you know, I want her to do well.

And I think she is well equipped to do that without

a lot of advice from me so with that I'll just stop but one thing I'll say out here Todd is the extremism has hit the wall and it doesn't matter whether we're talking about how we treat our allies around the world and particularly the Canadians people have had it I mean we like the Canadians guys like me go north and fish every year and we have great

trade relations.

And I think we appreciate the support that we had from the Europeans during the recent wars we've had in the Middle East and in Afghanistan.

And they've been wonderful allies.

And we want our government to stop fooling around and treat them with respect.

And then I could run down the list.

The police are angry about being, you know, regarded as folks that are going to sweep up people without due process.

They're tired of, you know, hearing about felons being pardoned and cops being beat to half to death.

You know, this is the kind of thing that takes supporters and makes them not want to support you anymore when you do stuff like that.

And, you know,

the vets, again, our vets, we all love them, and we want to support them.

And we don't like it when people think that they're a fair game, and that's just really extreme.

And then finally, I would just say health care workers, what's going on at the CDC, the Department of Health, FDA, we get it.

Our health is everything.

And we've got to get back to solving problems.

We know we have a spending problem in this country.

But I think people will tell you they're just pissed at how folks are going about it in Washington, or even worse, hiding from the problems in

Washington.

Dale, and we're talking with Dale Schultz, former Senate Majority Leader in Southwest Wisconsin.

You know, Trigby and I both left Republican Party.

Dale still hangs onto the moniker just to tick people off, I think.

But we appreciate that about him.

I want you both, both Dale and Trigby, to talk about this, because we've talked about the Green Bay area, the Bau County, so to speak, and Southeast Wisconsin, the Wow counties.

Dale, I want to talk to Trigby.

I want to talk about the areas that you guys both feel really well.

Trigby, you've run congressional campaigns

the third, including Southwest Wisconsin, of course, Dale, your Senate and former assembly district is in this part of the state.

In Vernon County, which is just south of La Crosse, and then this is all along the Mississippi River, then just south of that Crawford County, then adjacent to that to the East Richland County where Dale and I are from, and then Salk County, which Dale represented for a long time,

All four of those counties went for Susan Crawford last night in what, you know, a lot of people call the swingiest part of the state.

Dale first, then Trig V. What's your takeaway last night to an area of the state that Trump won just a couple, three months ago.

And now Susan Crawford wins it to last night.

Well, I think the games wore off and people wanted to get back to solving problems in just a common sense approach to government and they stood up and let their votes and voices be heard

um

Well, I would say this.

I don't want to be the Debbie Downer here.

It's an April election versus a November election, which is a little bit like comparing a high school football game to the Green Bay Packers and the Minnesota Vikings scoring off in terms of size and scope.

But I do think there is an element.

It clearly was not a good night for how Trump is going down with voters in Wisconsin.

I do think there are a fair amount of low propensity Trump voters who quite frankly only show up for Trump.

I mean, that's what happened between 2016 and 20.

Republicans got shellacked, too.

You know, Donald Trump, Scott Walker paid for Donald Trump with his job.

I really think that's true.

Soda Chimmel actually is attorney general.

But the bottom line is...

I think that movement is good.

I think Democrats in the state of Wisconsin, certainly the third is a place where you have common sense people who, quite frankly, are looking at what's going on and are really uncomfortable about it.

They're being negatively impacted by it, and it's the kind of places where, you know, right up I-94 from Madison to St.

Croix County, all the counties to the west and across the counties that touch Highway 29 going to Green Bay, that is...

That is the battleground

Dale you're out there every day You still talk to a lot of people on both sides of the political aisle You're just you're just a guy out there putting up fences and and you do it at coffee shops and that kind of stuff What aside from the politics and the polls the focus group?

What are you just hearing on the street?

What what do people what do people want right now from there from their candidates for elective office?

What are they trying to vote for?

Well, I think the the first thing is they want them to show up and listen to them We've had a group in Richland Center that's been Trying to you know raise the concerns that people generally have here in Richland Center, which are economic There's a general broad feeling that we're not getting our fair share and people want economic equity now and You know, we can't get our congressman to come and

talk to us.

Last session we had our Republican legislators refuse to answer any questions and I think this rubs people the wrong way.

I mean most people out here are mature adults who enjoy a good conversation and are willing to talk about different solutions to problems but what they don't want is to be blown off and I think

That process that we all sort of take for granted or have been taking for granted is coming home to roost in ways that a lot of people in Washington, well in Madison too, just have failed to understand.

Yeah.

Let's go to the full lines really quickly.

855-752-4842.

Rob in Port Edwards.

I know Dale knows where that's at in Trig V2 just below Wisconsin Rapids.

Rob, you had one of the best calls of the year so far in this show when you called in earlier in this campaign talking about canvassing in a very Republican area and how you listen to people who might not agree with you and then just didn't exaggerate or lie but presented the facts.

I'm glad you're calling back in.

Rob, what's your reaction quickly if you can to the race?

the election last night?

Well, outstanding.

We did our job as canvassers and as voters and you folks as representatives of the media.

God bless you all.

And I agree with Mr. Schultz that we need to change the dynamic

on how

we do approach people.

We need to listen and to ask questions and let them ask questions and have straight answers.

But going back to Mr. Trigby and his concept of this was all about Doge Trump

Leon Musk and all of that, our marching orders as pollsters for the Democratic Party did not include those issues.

We were germane to what was going on within the judicial system under Schimel's regime, what he did and did not do, what Susan Crawford has done and continues and will continue to do, and stay on the positive.

and work towards getting the local issues brought up, not what's going on in the Fed.

It's completely different than what's being portrayed here.

And I hope that that's how people take what we did as canvassers and as the Democratic Party.

We tried to keep the topic germane to Wisconsin.

God bless you all.

Have a great day.

Bye.

Me?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that was sound strategy.

in terms of keeping it focused on Wisconsin.

As I say, the national narrative that this was all about Musk, really not, you know, for the people who had already made up their mind were making it a referendum on Elon.

The people that were undecided, which is why that tactic on the doors of talking about local issues is fantastic.

And then it's connected with the narrative.

I just think and Dale would have really interesting insights on this.

I think with Musk, it's more about

People just don't like outsiders.

And then to top it off, imagine how Republicans would have acted if George Soros had held an event in freaking Dane County for Crawford, right?

Like that just rubs people the wrong way.

Dale.

What also rubs them the wrong way is when you say, I'm going to give you a chance at a million dollars if you get somebody to sign a petition.

And then when it's all over, you find out they pre-selected the winners and people go,

Was I ever stupid for doing that?

I'm never doing that again.

And that really makes me mad because you lied to me.

How often have you lied to me in the past before you did that to me?

Yeah, I think that's just sort of a gut level check for a lot of people.

But I want to say one thing and then I'll give somebody else a chance.

If Wisconsin is going to change, if the country is going to change,

The opposition party has to paint a picture of a better tomorrow.

And it has to be prepared to be specific.

It has to work within itself to come up with a united vision that people can go out and sell.

And I think our last caller had said that on this previous times on the show.

For those people out there who don't have their minds made up, they're looking for somebody who's solution oriented.

And that's where I'm coming from too.

I want solutions, and I'm willing to work with people and compromise with them.

Well said, Dale Trigvie.

100%.

Yeah, I mean 100%.

I think it gets back to something, Dale, that you and I have talked about a lot, right?

But when we've been on this show together and offline.

And that is, there are certain things where people in Wisconsin always wore green and gold.

And you've got people in the state that want to make everything, and people from outside the state in particular, like Elon Musk, who are trying to come in here and make everything red or blue.

But the truth of the matter is, most of the people sitting at Johnny's Bar in River Falls or the equivalent Richland Center, they're wearing green and gold.

They're not wearing red

or blue.

Dale Schultz, Trig V. Olsen, come on back.

We'll wrap things up with them.

You're listening to the Todd Allball Show across Wisconsin on the Civic Media Ready Network.

Putting extra money

in his 401k retirement plan just till he has enough.

to own his own Zamboni when he retires to River Falls, Trig V. Olson, senior advisor at the Lincoln Project, and joins us as usual on a Wednesday.

Wouldn't that be, would you think your wife would go along with that if you said, look, I just want to buy a Zamboni in

retirement?

No, but I honestly, if I could drive the Zamboni at the River Falls Sports Complex.

in retirement, that would be a dream job.

We'll see.

We'll try to set that up for you.

It joins us every Wednesday.

We're pleased to have one of my former bosses, former Senate Majority Leader, Dale Schultz.

Todd, on the next

tour.

Yes.

What?

Todd, I'm sorry to interrupt, but on the next tour, since you did the duck boat thing, maybe we could get our buddy Bill McCauchon

to let

me drive the Zamboni at his new ice rink in Jamesville.

Hey, they're new ice rinks.

Sure.

I'm all for it.

I'm all for the

jets.

Yeah, absolutely.

Dale Schultz.

You got to work

on that.

Dale Schultz, former Senate Majority Leader, joins us from his home in Richland Center, Wisconsin, because it's raining and he couldn't be at the farm just outside of Richland Center.

So we're happy he is here.

Dale, knowing you a long time, you don't like to talk about yourself a whole lot, but so I will for a moment.

Dale just got a brand new award.

And one of the reasons that we, I've told this story a lot.

and Schaefer was on this show a couple of days ago and talked about the times working for you and of course Dale.

You know, you were there back in 2011 when the Senate Republican caucus started talking about voter suppression bills and you were the only person to raise your hand was an objection and you ended up walking out of that caucus in protest.

However, you told me to stay there.

Thanks a lot for that.

But you voted against the last two voter ID bills in the state because you were quoted on this network as saying, I simply can't defend my colleagues anymore.

And now you've received another award for that sort of ethics.

And talk a little bit about that, if you would, please.

Well, first of all, I didn't just receive an award.

Tim Cullum and I both received an award for our bipartisan work to do something about gerrymandering.

And I deeply appreciate it.

And I know if Tim were here today with us, he would say something very similar.

We had a lot of fun.

It was a lot of work, but like,

You and Trig V, there's just something special about being able to go all around Wisconsin, meet people, explain to them what gerrymandering is, to hear their reactions, answer their questions, and then to finally find yourself one day in front of the United, the state of Wisconsin Supreme Court listening to the oral arguments and seeing 10 years worth of work through the

and it was just very rewarding and I enjoyed it.

And my thanks to Leader Ethics for the work they do, not only for recognizing Tim and I, but the efforts they make to recognize leaders all around Wisconsin every year.

And we've had some great local officials who have been doing a great job, particularly our county clerks, and my hats off to them.

What we need to do is accentuate the positive and worry a little less about the negative.

And I think if we do that, things will be right with the world.

Well, congratulations again, well-deserved and enough for that leader ethics group in La Crosse.

And congratulations on that award, Dale.

Trade me to Dale's point there.

And you've talked about that about this on this show before, just the fact that there can be compromise.

And if you stick to it, eventually,

Results can happen and I don't want to I won't go to we don't have time but Zomers I had a drink with a couple other people last night from Civic here after our election coverage last night And I found myself an odd position.

I was the oldest person at the table 55 it feels very weird now to be the oldest person in the room sometimes But the younger people are like no, you know, we're ticked off, you know We're sick and tired of being told, you know, we have to wait

But I think there's some value, some lessons to what Dale said.

He and former in the late great senator Tim Cullen started on this in 2011-2012, and it took until this last year to finally find fruition in fair maps.

Politics sometimes is slow, but it still works.

Yeah, I mean, this whole, you know...

People love to cite this, we the people.

What they forget is that's not the end of the sentence in order to form a more perfect union, right?

Like that takes time.

The reality is America is an idea in the form of a nation.

And that idea is ever-evolving.

And the state of Wisconsin is an idea that's ever-evolving.

And perfection is always the aspiration, but it's never the destination.

because you're never going to get there.

But you can work towards it.

That gets forgotten all the time.

That takes people working together.

Dale,

one

minute.

I think it has to be said that Tim would also say it wasn't just he and I. There are a whole lot of people, Republicans and Democrats who came together around Wisconsin, educated themselves, went out and sold this concept.

And that's what Trigby's talking about, is that constant need to grow, to fight for what's right, and it never does end.

That's just the nature of man and the fact that we've been giving it an imperfect tool to reach a perfect end.

It's eternal vigilance is ours.

It's our responsibility.

Well, we appreciate everything you do have done Dale and continue to do and stay active in the Wisconsin and into the community.

About 45 seconds left.

What's the big farm news?

What are you working on this spring?

Well, it's too wet do field work right now But I think there are an awful lot of people who are wondering how the tariffs are going to impact us I think there are a lot of people wondering is there enough moisture in the ground?

Will it continue to rain?

There's a lot of nervousness on the farm, you know the dairymen Worry about their workforce being intimidated by these swatting efforts and and we have an awful lot of people who are in

production of agricultural products and they're worried too.

Former State Senate Majority Leader Dale Schultz, we appreciate you my friend.

Thanks for being here.

Congrats on that award.

Trigby Olsen is going to stick around for a few minutes in the next hour for a little what's worse and your chance to win Brewer's tickets.

Come on back for hour two is the all those show right here on the Civic Media.

Live from the Civic Media World headquarters in Madison, Wisconsin, it's the Todd Alba show.

And now, pursuing truth wherever it may lead, here's your host, Todd Alba.

Across Wisconsin on the Civic Media radio network.

and streaming worldwide on the Civic Media app.

Good afternoon, everybody.

I'm Todd Albaugh, along with fantastic Mr. Aaron Zommers on the board.

It is six past the hour of 1 o'clock.

Welcome into hour number two of the big program here on a Wednesday, April 2nd, 2025.

It is a great day to be Wisconsinite, and it is pump day.

That's right.

We've made it halfway through the week, folks.

The day after the Wisconsin general spring election, which found Judge Susan Crawford beating Judge Brad Schimmel, 55% to 45% found Superintendent of Public Instruction incumbent Dr. Jill Underly beating Brittany Kinzer, 52.9 to 47.1%.

and found the voter ID requirement, which is already law, passed 62.8 to 37.2 percent.

Last to get to in a short time to get there at the bottom of the hour, John Roach.

We call him a Renaissance man.

He is a great filmmaker, brand new film called A Road at Night, the story of Howard Moore, longtime Wisconsin Badger basketball player and coach.

It'll be showing at the Barrymore Theater here in Madison on Sunday at 7 p.m.

as part of the Wisconsin Film Festival.

He's gonna be here, Roche is talking about that.

We also have a little trivia to do, a trivia text to win contest, your chance to win Milwaukee Brewer's tickets this hour, and also what's

and a little bonus time with our friend, Trigvie Olson, Senior Advisor at the Lincoln Project, because Trigvie, what are we waiting for?

What's worse?

I do.

He's still yawning.

Boy, boy.

Sorry.

You can't buy that kind of excitement.

I know.

I know.

All right.

It's eight minutes past the hour of one o'clock.

Let's do this quick.

Here we go.

Time once again to play Civic Media's Break into Spring Text to Win Contest.

Let's go.

I can see clearly now the rain is gone.

I can see

all obstacles in my way.

That's right, time to play our text to win.

Spring break into spring text-to-win contest your chance this hour this hour somebody's gonna win a pair of Milwaukee Brewer tickets got their first win yesterday and It's very exciting these tickets are not just your average seat through the club level you have your own kind of concession stand and bathrooms right behind you air-conditioned in case it's a overly hot day beautiful seats and I'm gonna give away two tickets this hour and everybody gets entered in

to win the grand prize of a Verlo mattress set complete with a bamboo steamer.

No, bamboo sheets, bamboo sheets included with that beautiful Verlo mattress set.

So download the Civic Media app.

If you don't have it, open it up.

First 11 stations are ours.

There's Trinity.

He's ready to play and go to the one closest to you or pick one of the first 11.

Open it up on the lower right hand corner.

It'll say text, a little icon that says text.

I'm gonna give you the secret word this hour and text it in to win.

The word this hour is Sprout.

The word is Sprout.

S as in Sam, P as in Paul, R, O, U, T as in Todd.

Sprout.

I guess I'm trying to use it.

In the spring, the seeds sprout.

S-P-R-O-U-T Sprout.

Text the word Sprout right now.

All right.

I enjoy getting Sprouts.

But that's plural.

Don't mess

it up.

Sprout.

The seeds will sprout.

S-P-R-O-U-T.

Singular.

Sprout.

And you have to spell it correctly because the computer picks this out and if you don't spell it correctly, you're S-O-L.

And here's the deal.

This has been a big thing our friend.

What's the matter trick me?

Did

you misspell it?

I'm out my stupid autocorrect put sport not Sprout Sprout S

P R O U T Sprout.

You could still text again if it didn't work.

Yeah, you can still text it again Well, all right anyway, Jane Matt near our friend and colleague on the show before us She is out for vengeance because she is going to

topple us this time.

We're behind in the count.

We were given the count yesterday, and we are in bad shape here to win this contest.

So we need every vote.

At the end of the day, it really isn't about you, the listening audience.

It's about us.

No, it's not.

Anyway, text the word Sprout.

Would you like me to give him a little pep talk?

Sure, go for it.

Listeners, great moments are made of great opportunity, and this is a great opportunity for you to get tickets to the Brewers.

You were born to be Textors on behalf of the Todd Elbow Show, each and every one of you.

Now get out there and take it for us.

Do you like it?

That is very good.

You may have to come back the rest of the week to help us out.

Text the word Sprout.

Her Brooks is 1980 Olympic speech.

S-P-R-O-U-T Sprout.

Text it right now.

Somebody from this hour, you're not against anybody else.

Only people texting this hour.

Somebody this hour is going to win a pair of Milwaukee Brewer club level seats.

It might as well be you.

Text Sprout to the Civic Media app right now.

All right.

So they're beautiful seats, and we're going to be doing this the rest of the week.

On Friday after Friday's show, they're going to pick the big grand prize winner for a Verlo mattress set.

But you know the best part of this contest, Todd?

Oh, Lord.

It's statewide.

Yes, it is.

The attorneys are right outside the windows here, giving me the evil eye.

because I didn't say statewide contest.

All right, 12 minutes past the hour, one o'clock.

Can I ask a question?

If you win tickets to tonight's Brewer's game and you live in Superior?

No, it's not for tonight.

It's not for tonight.

Yeah, it's for future Brewer's.

Yes.

Civic Media will reach out to you at the phone number you use to text in to figure out what day we can get your tickets for.

Also, Tom and LA, LA Tom on YouTube say, ask you the question, what is a bamboo steamer?

What?

What?

didn't didn't LA didn't you watch like TBS or or back in the day in the 80s be they had the infomercials and be the bamboo steamer and it was a big infomercial and they would sell you this steamer basket that was made of bamboo and I never ordered one I'm sure it was cheap and all you did is set this on a pot of boiling water and it was a big deal that oh my god the bamboo steamer to have healthy you remember this trick me

Now

when you buy frozen vegetables, the bags that they're in are steam bags and you like open it a little and you put it in the microwave and you just steam it.

I'm sorry, back in 1983.

And if you're not

careful, you nuke your hands.

Yeah.

Well, in 83, that didn't exist.

You didn't

get very hot.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, coming up on 14.

Did you have the ginsu two times?

Yes.

I still, the ginsu knife.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, 14 past one o'clock time now to do what's worse.

Here we go.

Time now to play

what's worse.

You're chasing, have your voice heard.

If I can talk all across the state of Wisconsin, 11 stations, no better place to get your voice heard than on Civic Media.

Go to civicmedia.us and find out how you can advertise with us timely, timely indeed.

Trigby and I know better than anybody else.

Trigby's had more wins than I have.

But inevitably after a loss, people are salty.

Some people on your own team.

And people sometimes can be aggressive or they can be passive aggressive.

So today is what's worse, passive aggressive or aggressive.

What's worse passive aggressive or aggressive 8 5 5 7 5 2 4 8 4 2 8 5 5 7 5 2 4 8 4 2 what's worse passive aggressive or aggressive 8 5 5 7 5 2 4 8 4 2 or you can text us on the civic media app Trigby Olson passive aggressive or aggressive aggressive what's worse

Ah, passive-aggressive.

Yes.

All those Minnesota people I grew up with, every single one of them.

They're the most passive-aggressive people you'll ever meet.

Really?

Aggressive, you

can deal with.

Aggressive, you can deal with.

Oh, God.

Minnesotans?

Yeah, Minnesota nice is totally passive-aggressive.

It's total BS.

People listening up BCH, you might have some Minnesotans

up here.

I get that, that Minnesotans are going to soon be part of our universe and I will

torment them every chance I

get.

They're just a bunch of foot, they're only fans when it comes to football, they're not owners.

Josh Perry comments on Facebook.

What's worse?

I think that if you would ask better questions, you might get more replies, but that's just me.

You don't have to listen if you don't want to.

I agree.

Yes,

exactly.

Thank you,

Mr. Perry.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Passive aggressive is way worse, but I can't wait to hear what other people say.

That's a great example of passive aggressive.

Yes, well as aggressive

is

horrible

hundred percent Tom Tom and LA aggressive If you know where people stand passive aggressive is horrible.

Yes,

you know, it's the most passive aggressive thing that people used to always say is you do you That's that's so like

really 8 5 5 7 5 2 4 8 4 2 let's go to Karina in Milwaukee listening at WAUK Karina passive aggressive or aggressive.

What's worse?

Fast progressive, you know, like Russian people, we're just aggressive.

It's easy to deal with them.

You tell us what to do.

We tell you yes or no.

And it's simple.

When the people are passive aggressive, I think they're more lying than they want something to achieve.

They're more self-centered, manipulative, and kind of like a whistle.

Because if you are in the relationship with me, in any friendship relationship, if we have a conversation and you are passive-aggressive with me, I don't need that conversation at all because you're just trying to do something I don't even know.

I think that is so well said.

I appreciate people who are straightforward.

I really do.

Well done, Karina.

Trigme, what do you think about that?

I agree with that 100%.

And you've known people in Russians and people from that part of the world.

I think Americans may be the most passive-aggressive people out there.

Agree or disagree?

Do your travels?

No, you're a European.

Really?

Any particular country?

Further east and towards Scandinavia, maybe.

Really?

All right.

Well, that's very interesting.

What's worse, aggressive or passive-aggressive?

855-7524842, 855-752.

4842.

All right, Trig.

Well, you got your, we appreciate you sticking around this extra time this week.

And we look forward to... I like this, this or that game.

He doesn't like talking to me about politics anymore.

But this is what's worse.

No, I do like talking to you about politics.

I do.

I'm just saying I like this game though.

All right.

Well, I appreciate it.

Are you sticking around?

I'm still put off by the rock set to come in.

No, I got to go.

All right.

Thanks, Trigby.

Have

a

great week.

We'll talk

to

you later.

All right.

I'll see you guys.

Come on back.

More What's Worse on the

Other Side by Trigby.

And John Roach after The Power of the Hours.

The All Balls Show for Wednesday on the Civic Media.

Pretty number.

you

Having fun doing it.

Welcome back to the Ta-Dolville show on the Civic Media Ready Network.

But thanks to Trigby Olson, Senior Advisor at the Lincoln Project for sticking around.

Glad to have you along on a Wednesday after the bottom of the hour.

One of my all-time favorite people to have on this show, John Roach, Renaissance man, University of Wisconsin, Madison graduate.

You could talk to this guy about anything.

And what I'm really happy to talk today about with him is his new film called A Night

Pardon me a road at night to be shown at the Barrymore Theater this weekend at 7 p.m.

On Sunday as part of the Wisconsin Film Festival gonna talk to Roach after the bottom of the hour So stay tuned for that right now talking about what's worse Well a couple things number one if you want some Brewer tickets We're giving away a pair on the walkie Brewer tickets to a future game and the club level seats fantastic seats by the way

And all you have to do to be eligible this hour is text the word right now on the Civic Media app.

Text the word Sprout.

S-P-R-O-U-T.

Sprout.

Text it right now on the Civic Media app.

Sprout.

And you'll be eligible to win a pair of Milwaukee Brewer tickets as well as a Verlo mattress set.

as the grand prize.

Lots of great prizes on this great contest.

So do that.

Also asking you the question, what's worse?

Passive aggressive or aggressive?

Passive aggressive or aggressive?

855-752-4842, 855-752-4842.

You can also text us online or we stream or on the Civic Media app.

John Jed Jorn, great name, is watching on YouTube, says, aggressive sucks, but those people are typically consistent.

Passive aggressive is people you are on guard with constantly.

I think that's well said, Zomers.

I mean, people who are always passive aggressive, I don't know if you really trust them that much, right?

I agree.

And on a similar line, we got a text from Barb in Waukesha who said, this is easy, passive-aggressive is worse.

I married and divorced someone who was passive-aggressive, but having silent treatment for days.

Wow.

That's very interesting.

Maybe part of the reason it's past tense was.

It seems like it might have been the right

move.

Aggressive or

passive aggressive was worse.

I definitely agree with passive aggressive like everyone else is saying with aggressive You can just say all right.

You're mad right now.

We'll get to this later and you know where you stand With passive aggressive there are people who were passive aggressive to me like once in middle school or high school that I'm still a little like there's a little I'm a little bit bitter against them really because my only impression of them is Wow, I just talked to you and like said hello, and you were just a jerk.

Okay.

Goodbye.

Right, right,

right

No, I agree.

Um, this isn't a hard one for me at all.

It's passive aggressive is worse because I think to your point to other people's Kareena's, uh, you don't really know how to deal with those people always.

And they're never really being 100% upfront with you.

And I would rather have someone just, I guess, yell at me or like, I know what I stand with people who are aggressive.

And if it gets too aggressive, I guess I can just walk away.

But the passive-aggressive stuff is just like, all right, come on.

And not to say that I've, you know, to be fair, to be honest, I'm not going to say I've never been passive-aggressive.

But I don't know.

You know me pretty well by now.

It's not really my style, is it?

No.

You'll be sarcastic.

But then it's clearly a joke.

Right.

And even then, it's usually not a passive-aggressive joke unless it's about yourself.

Well, that's true too.

Tony watch on YouTube says unless they are physically aggressive, then you can't really walk away from the situation.

That's a good point.

That's a whole other kettle of fish, right?

No, I'm not.

We're not talking about, you know, violent physical violence here.

Whereas I guess aggressive, meaning like people who are just yellers or verbal yellers or I guess really aren't physically yellers.

People yell or people who are aggressive, like, I need an answer.

I need an answer, like, today.

Like, you know, get your stuff

together.

I need an answer.

We got another text from Shirley in the saw.

That's a good word.

Insidious.

I like that.

Isn't

that from Star Wars?

Darth Sidious?

That is, yeah.

Not insidious, but darsidious.

855-752-4842.

What's worse, passive aggressive or aggressive.

855-752-4842.

You can also text us on the Civic Media app.

Have a YouTube viewer here.

I apologize.

If I try to pronounce your name, I'm afraid I'm gonna mess it up.

It starts with X says, passive aggressive folks think they can still be friends after treating you poorly.

I think Jizu is how I would imagine that says.

Oh, I bet that's a cool name.

Zizu.

I hope that's right.

Yeah, I agree is that sometimes passive aggressive, you know, people are always passive aggressive.

They think that they could just move on like.

Oh, yeah.

Cheezoo.

All right, Cheezoo.

Very good.

Appreciate that.

That's a great point.

Do they think they can be nice one moment and passive-aggressive the next and it won't affect your opinion of them?

Great point.

855-752-4842.

A couple minutes left in this one.

Asking you the question, what's worse?

Passive-aggressive or aggressive?

855-752-4842?

855-752-4842.

for two.

Really excited, by the way, for John Roach to be here.

Been a while since he's been on the program.

And I've said this before the show that get your favorite beverage.

I don't know why, but to be honest, I've never had a Scotch with John.

I've had a beer with John Roach, but never a Scotch.

But to me, John Roach is one of those guys that you just you sit next to a fire with a with a little bit of Scotch or brandy or whatever you're drinking and you just listen.

Because his voice is just amazing and the way he tells stories Not only is a great writer not only is a great filmmaker But it's just it warms your soul and he's talking about a great new project called a road at night Very very important film and he's gonna be here in just a couple of minutes 8 5 5 7 5 2 4 8 4 2 8 5 5 7 5 2 4 8 4 2 what's worse?

A couple of minutes left.

Gonna try to sneak it in very quickly.

Let's go to the phone lines and go to Milwaukee Betsy in Milwaukee Betsy aggressive or passive aggressive.

What's worse?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well said.

I totally agree.

Not taking responsibility for actions.

All right.

Stay tuned.

Come on back.

A great conversation with John Roach about a very important film and talk about Wisconsin Film Festival.

you're listening to the Civic Media Ready

Network.

truth wherever it may lead and having fun doing it.

Welcome back to Taddleball Show on the Cinec Media Rating Network.

34 minutes now past the hour of what a clock.

Glad to have you along on a Wednesday, April 2nd, 2025.

My next guest is somebody who I enjoy not talking to so much as just listening to.

Mentally, I call him a Renaissance man.

He is a writer.

He is a director, a producer, all around great guy, an alum of the University of Wisconsin, Madison.

with a voice as smooth as butter.

John Roach joins us from his home here in Madison.

He has a great new documentary out called A Road at Night.

You can see it this weekend as part of the Wisconsin Film Festival at the Barrymore Theater in Madison at 7 p.m.

on Sunday.

Tickets are going quickly, but they are still available.

If you want yours, go to wifilmfest.org.

filmfest.org.

Be like me.

I've already got mine.

Looking forward to it and Zomers will put that up on our show notes as well.

John Roach, thanks for being here.

Hey, John.

You know, you hear a lot of my voice because I have a mouth like a torn pocket, as my dad used to say.

You know, I have been accused by more than a few people of talking too much, but I always enjoy chatting with you.

Well, likewise, and just because you're a real guy, you know a lot of people, you've done it all in the media and entertainment industry.

But you're the quintessential Wisconsin guy, just because you're so well grounded, in my opinion.

And you remind me.

I am a

Wisconsin guy.

I know you are.

Yes.

And you remind me so much of somebody that we know mutually, and that is Bo Ryan, former Plattville, Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Madison head coach of basketball there.

And, you know, I got to know Bo pretty well over about three and a half years when I covered him.

And he was immensely, you know, immensely popular and important in the basketball world, but you sat at a bar and he had a drink with him or you were riding on a bus.

And he was just as common as anybody else.

He'd be at the grocery store anywhere in Wisconsin.

Well, I know Bowell and we're both shanty Irish.

So maybe that's the explanation.

That could be.

Go ahead.

Well, no, go ahead you go.

I would I was gonna say let's get right into it because This is a very power.

We you've been on the show once before you kind of alluded to this this very important film and now it's finally coming out It's part of the Wisconsin film festival as we said this weekend 7 p.m.

On Sunday the bear more very more people could come see it called a road at night and for those that might not have heard a previous show

Explain to folks what the premise of this documentary is and how what inspired you to take this up as a subject in your work.

Sure.

So it's a documentary based on real life events.

that and it was an event that happened to the Howard Moore family.

Howard, Jen, Jayton, and Jarrell were on their way.

Howard was a former University of Wisconsin basketball player and actively a UW coach when the event occurred in May of 2019.

They got a little break, which is rare for college assistant coaches.

You know, they have just a few brief windows during the year where they can grab some family time and they got in their van, excuse me, SUV and went down to Chicago, visited Howard's parents, Howard Sr.

and Trenas.

And then instead of staying the night in Chicago, they thought they'd drive leaving it around midnight and get to Detroit about three-ish.

because they didn't want to mess with traffic in Chicago and Detroit, which is not an uncommon thing.

But somewhere just outside of Ann Arbor at about 2.30 in the morning, the more SUV was hit head on by a drunk driver going the wrong way on what was effectively an interstate highway.

And most Madison folks, Wisconsin folks know that Jen and Jayden were both killed.

Howard was severely burned and then had subsequent additional complications and is physically compromised now.

And this is the story about what happened that night, how it happened.

It's a story not just of the Moors, but three young women who went out for the evening with seemingly innocent motives, but unfortunately failed to make

one good decision when they had multiple chances to do that during the evening.