How Will Data Centers Effect You | The Tory Lowe Show

We got guests. We got Thomas Content and Studio Executive Director of City

Scenes Utility Board of Wisconsin Inc. And we got Antonio Butts in Studio as

well. Hey, look, we had we had a whole conversation for the last couple months

about these data centers. That's right. And a lot of people on the outskirts of

Milwaukee on the news protest in these data centers due to maybe environmental

maybe electricity surges in the community and maybe other things. But I'm happy

you're here because I want to know what's really going on and what should the

concern be because last week we talked about there was a news article about

the we energy preparing for a surge due to these data centers. That's right. And I

had a question, will the cost be passed on to the people? That's the big

question. And we're trying to make sure that doesn't happen. So yeah, a cub

where the consumer advocate for all the ratepayers across the state, we

energies and otherwise. And the big difference between the data centers we've

already had and the new ones is AI. And AI is is just it's it's an aircraft

carrier size of energy use. That's how much it is it you talk about how long we

energies has been around since the 1890s. 1890s to today they've gone from zero

demand for electricity to 5,000 megawatts. And now just these two projects. So

they got one one point one million customers, right. And these two projects is

like adding another 1.1 million customers just for two projects in Port

Washington and and for Microsoft and Racine. So it's orders of magnitude, which

is why they just filed proposals to build counted six billion dollars of new

power plants and upgraded power plants. And the concern is who's going to be

paying for that. And you know, the concern is the tech companies have all the

money and they should be paying for it. And that's what I'm saying. Like they

got money. So why would any cost be passed on us? That's lack of leadership

in negotiation to me if that happens. So I would put the onus on our elected

officials to make sure that that doesn't happen. Yeah. And and they have filed a

proposal. We energies filed a proposal with the Public Service Commission, which

is, you know, the agency that regulates the monopolies and and they call it their

rate payer protection plan. And they've been saying all the right things and the

tech companies have been saying all the right things. But but once our

economist and our team of experts dug into it, it's like, well, here's a loophole.

Oh, here's another one up, up, up, up, be on the hook for a quarter of the

cost of all this new power plants. We could be on a cook on the hook for the

transmission line costs for the giant transmission lines that have to feed

these babies. So so it's it there's a lot of risk here. Before to

Antonio, how are you doing until good, good, good, good. Let's get this

makeup. All right. Turn it. Yeah, speaking to them a little bit, but I

wanted to ask you a question. You know, we, I live on the North side, where

people struggle just with what's going on with we energies right now.

Many times out to April, you know, now that they they released right lift

the moratorium. And now people trying to figure out how they going to pay

this bill after the winter time. So when you're talking anything extra,

it just makes me nerves. Yeah. So before the data and data center issue

emerged and has become, you know, this huge topic and huge capital span energy

affordability has been an issue in Milwaukee for quite a while. Right. And so

I'm over at Walnut Way Conservation Corps. And we've been in this energy

justice battle for the last five years. Okay. involved as an actual legal

intervener and public service commission cases around how we energies

produces their rates. Right. And so this particular case again, it's

something we saw in the horizon years ago, uh, been joining time in the

club team and some of our other partners across the state, just to raise

the alarm about this whole issue. And so as we get into the details,

you'll see it's just completely unfair. It's opportunity for people to step

up and you calling out the right names when you talk about state

legislators and public officials. Okay. All right. To me, and this is just my

many times when it comes to these big companies and these contracts,

we fall short and the taxpayers is left holding the bag. Right.

You know, no matter if they got them big time lawyers, when they come in,

they just devour our elected officials. And I'm just being honest like they,

you know, we kind of wonder how did they get that player deal? Like how did they

get that price? How did we end up holding the bag?

It's because of the negotiations that's supposed to be going on

on our behalf. And uh, like Tom said, Tom said that, um,

the negotiations are going on and they find loopholes in what the,

what is being presented. And many times people do come here to set up

especially big conglomers. And they end up finding a way around

what's being said with the loopholes. And then we get the so

so inflation on the back. Yes, sir. So how our rates are decided in

Wisconsin and through a state agency, the Wisconsin Public Service Commission.

And the commission basically has three appointed commissioners by the governor.

And these three individuals make the decisions on all of the pricing of utilities

across the state. And these decisions that are being made now, what's important

that listeners should understand about this tariff is the tariff decides who pays.

And who pays what? Oh, wow. So why in Microsoft, just you, if anything extra,

it just go to y'all. Why can't they just say that? That's, that's the idea. I mean,

I feel like, yeah, okay, if we get an extra surge, all extra go to y'all, y'all got to pay,

y'all got a foot to bill. Yep. And, and, and we got to hold them to it. So they,

they put together a deal that, that doesn't provide tough enough financial guarantees.

It doesn't have long enough contracts. It's only, it only applies to just if really the,

the mega sized data centers and that all of them. So we think, we think the Public Service

Commission has a job right now to make it right. And most people haven't heard of a public

service commission, right? I mean, it, we call it the three most people in state government

that nobody's ever heard of because they tell you, they tell us what we pay for power,

what we pay for water. And they set the course, they got names, and they got, and they set the

course for the Wisconsin for the kinds of names. Now, we need, we need some email addresses.

We said they said, well, we, we're going to get some information in a minute. But we said that,

they set the course for what kind of energy future we're going to have, too. But by deciding

which power plants get built, which, which ones don't? All of our commissioners appointed by

our governor, Evers currently, the chair of summer strand, uh, Christie, Naito and Marcus Hawkins.

Okay. Those are the three individuals. And they're all appointed by the governor,

governor who's also a co-chair of US climate alliance as well. And so this is all really important.

But to times earlier point, you know, the vision and the expectation is not lining up with what

we see in the actual process and the negotiation, as you mentioned it. Well, people in the chat,

it's already seen from from what they hear. And so taxes about to go up again. That's what they,

that's what they kind of hearing from when they say that all of these, uh, data sentences coming

through with the AI and the surge and it's a significant chance that they're building more

infrastructure. Should the cost, could the cost be avoided or being passed on to the taxpayer?

We've seen it done in other states where they passed, uh, past plans that actually work better

for consumers. Um, and that's why we actually need legislation too, because we need a statewide

approach. I talk, I like to talk about this example in Ohio where, uh, the utility actually got

burned by crypto and Bitcoin, come Bitcoin companies that came in. Oh wow. And, and for crypto mining,

and they needed a lot of energy infrastructure for that. And guess what? They didn't stay. They,

they only lasted a few years and then they left town. And then the ratepayers and Ohio were on

the hook. And so what happened with then the data standards came in and the utility actually was

just as concerned as the art counterpart, the consumer advocate over in Ohio. So the utility and the

consumer group worked together to come up with a plan that had longer, longer contract terms,

more tougher provisions. And, and they passed that in, in, in, in which Ohio's public

utility regulator passed that. And then what happened? Then all the data centers said, we're going

to go to a different utility where all those consumer protections aren't in place. And so, so our

concern is even if we make, even if the PSE makes this the best, even insulates with, we, we

energy's customers, we got to make sure that the rest of the customers across the state are

protected too. And so a statewide approach is really needed and legislations needed for that.

Okay, well, we got to run the break. When we come back, we got some questions. How many jobs

would this provide for the community? Is this something that we should be concerned about when

it comes to pollution? What are some of the, because I hear a lot of people saying with these

data centers is, you know, what are the main concerns? And when we come back, we want to talk

about that Antonio. But when we come back, we're going to have more conversation. We talk about

we energy, we talking about the surge of an energy expected to happen with these AI data centers.

We're going to have more conversation when we get back.

This is the Tori Lo Show on 101 7 the truth, the truth app and 101 7 the truth dot com.

We got a conversation that I think that y'all should be paying attention to right now,

because it involves you. It involves our taxes. It involves these data centers that are popping

up. And you see a lot of people giving a little pushback. But lately, they're talking about the cost

of the energy surge. We energy was on the news last week talking about the preparing for energy

surge. And many times with that, I wonder with that cost be passed on to us most times. But we got

time, a content in the studio. And we got an Anthony and Antonio, but in the studio to talk about

this. And I appreciate y'all for coming through. No, it's great to be with you. And look,

when we talk about what's going on with the elected officials and the groups that are handling this

situation, where are we right now? At this moment, at this moment, well, our legislature gave

tax breaks for data centers three years ago and kind of set the ball in motion. And other states

took a different approach where they negotiated those tax breaks in exchange with that statewide

approach and the consumer protections I was talking about earlier. So we're kind of playing

over in the capital. They're playing catch up and part of that catch ups happening tomorrow when

there's going to be a Senate hearing on a bunch of data center bills. And I'm expected a lot of

people to testify and say, hey, let's get the rules, let's get the rules of the road right before

before we go down any further down this path. Yeah, absolutely. I think that where we are now

is energy affordability has been an issue in Milwaukee for quite a long time. What we know from

our work at Walnut Way as an intervener in rate cases is that it's a known 60,000 residents

who have energy affordability issues. We know that about 50 megawatts of energy can take care of

those residents. When we think about how much energy we energies is preparing to produce for data

centers, it's more than 20 times those 50. Oh, wow. I was talking about the elected officials that

because many times my listeners just want to know who to call, how to get involved and where should

they put the energy to try to help. And right now, the action is over in the state Senate because

we've got data center bills are pending over in the state Senate because the assembly already passed

something, which we don't think actually accomplishes a lot and actually couldn't do more harm than

good. But there's a hearing tomorrow about the data center bills and speaking of tax payers,

the Senate also has a bill to give new tax breaks for nuclear plans. And one of the reasons

for that they're looking for those tax breaks is because the utilities in the data centers are trying

to build nuclear, have more nuclear power to feed the data centers. But tax breaks could be given

for those for those projects in advance. So now before before we went to break, I've seen

people complain about just data centers like having them in the community. What is the main concern

with citizens and residents with the AI data centers? I mean, I think there's a lot of community

concerns. I was a meeting last week in Port Washington where a lot of the people are are very

concerned, they're concerned about the energy use and then the impact on the water system in part

because of the water that is needed for a data center. But even more water is needed for the power

plants that are needed to feed the data center. So water challenges. And it's for a town that

it's not expecting and it's very disrupt. It's a lot of change overnight. The benefits are,

there is a tax benefit for the community that sites it. But there are questions about how many

jobs, permanent jobs actually create. But it does create a lot of construction jobs while it's

happening. If we've seen a lot of unions saying, hey, we want to see these things get built

because and the power plants get built because of the construction jobs are happening, an area

of interest, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. To Tom's point about the water and water usage, I know a lot

of people have been doing their own research to understand, you know, one question in a chat

body is a certain gallon number of gallons of water as an example. But when we just talk about

environmental issues and climate issues in general, the state of Wisconsin has very clear goals

around sustainability and what our expectations are of ourself by 2050. And with the governor being

in a co-chair of the U.S. Climate Alliance and us already having very clear goals outline,

we have a vision in the path. So it's really important to hold we energies accountable and keep

them in alignment with the criteria and the threshold we expect from them in this issue. If we have to,

we have to drill for more coal, use more oil, that takes us away from our long-term climate goals.

And what that does is it puts the burden on the future, the children now, the young people now.

Now and we're paying for coal. Coal is not cheap and, you know, we're paying

the Trump administration, right? Just recently announced a plan to keep coal plants open

around in various states. And it just happened in Michigan and from it, we're not partisan,

but from an affordability perspective, this is actually raising prices. And not just for

Michigan, because the Michigan utility turned around and said, well, we don't want, we were trying to

shut this baby down. We don't want to reopen. And now it's costing them hundreds or hundreds of

millions of dollars. And they're trying to spread it across all of the upper Midwest states,

including Wisconsin. So, so we've got issues that we're trying to attack. We just had energy hike.

Yeah, we just, we're ready. So prices just went up January 1st. So get ready for more.

We just had a energy increase. Right. In what you say it around 31% or so.

31% is the cost over for the typical customer over the last four years from, from where things were

in 2022 to where they are now. Okay. So now we're going into another increase or potential increase.

Right. Usually that you too, we energies usually comes in late March, early April around that time

frame. And they usually try to ask for an increase. And we expect this year to be no different.

And it would be an increase over the next two years. Oh, wow. So possibly a, we have no idea

the size of maybe a, it's a 40 to 50%. Well, if going back to 2022, yeah, exactly. I mean,

rates prices have already gone up by a third just over the last four years. And so, and that would

be, you know, if we lay it on another 10%, you know, that'd be 10% over 40% over six years if

that were to, we don't know what they're going to file though. What can people do? Like, because

we're talking about it, I think we mentioned right, the electric, electric officials, the state

representatives. But what do we need to do to really make an impact to really let our voices be heard

when it comes to this? Because sometimes we'll hear this information. And we'll be like, oh,

they're already going to do whatever they got going on. They already got it planned. It's nothing

we can do. Yeah, it's true. And there's always something we can do. And we all know there's

something that we always can do. And in each individual can contribute in many ways. But this

particular process hearings were held around this tariff. And the public comment period is open

for one more day. So people do have an opportunity to go to the Wisconsin Public Service Commission website

and put a comment in in terms of their own story and how this will impact them in their families.

But then along the lines of the things that you were mentioning earlier and talking to Tom about

just politically, how should we start to show up? Because this issue isn't going away. And it's

going to take us a while to negotiate our way through this. And so to your point, if we can keep

it on the radar, keep it front and center for folks. Yes, sir. As once it fall off,

uh, they get to operate without the community input or knowledge of actually what takes place.

Many times we'll hear about it. They did a go away and then about the next time we heard about

it's already a done deal. And I appreciate you saying that because that's why Walnut Way became

an official intervener. We energies has the largest philanthropy in the state of Wisconsin.

For Walnut Way, a nonprofit to decide that is going to be an intervener in utility rate case

while the largest philanthropic organization is on the other side of the battle. Wow.

Microsoft, we energies. Oh, we energy. Oh wow. Yeah, that's like, they say as many times as a

monopoly in the state of Wisconsin. Yeah, everybody, everybody, every utility has its own territory

that's their own basically. The Madison has a utility just for Madison. And we energies has

southeastern Wisconsin and Appleton Fox Valley, parts of the Fox Valley. So I'll never let

another energy company come in and compete. And that's why the, the job of those, those three

commissioners and the public service commission is so important. There's a national, a national

leader that's talking about energy affordability now. I'm named Charles, wow, he's grew up in

Matt, Wisconsin. He calls them across the country, the 200 supreme court justices of energy.

Because that's how important they are. And what I wouldn't get out of bed if everybody was

thrown up their hands and saying, you know, I'm saying I can't fight city hall, right?

And what's different now, I think, is people are more aware than they've ever been.

Affordability, this, when I was a reporter covering this stuff, my stories would get, would be

inside the business section. But this, this data center and affordability together, it's,

it's a top tier issue now. Look what happened now at East that it, a rate freeze was one of the

planks for the governors of New Jersey and Virginia that just won in the fall. And, you know,

and then you look at the recent polling in Wisconsin and nationally, where that it doesn't matter

if you're independent, it doesn't matter if you're democratic, it doesn't matter if you're a

publicate. We're a 41, 51, 49 state when it comes to elections. But it, it's a 10 point margin

with people thinking that the costs of data centers outweigh the benefits right now.

So, so if incomes aren't increasing, if inflation is truly rising, then it's incumbent upon us to

figure out how to help people keep money in their home, not have money extracted out of their homes.

Well, look, when we come back, I want to get y'all final thoughts, you know, the community right now,

we have so many fires and taxes is going up, will taxes, sales taxes, you know, we got, we

energy didn't went up, you know, all I'm saying is, where's the relief? And it don't seem like it's

coming to, you know, top two soon with this conversation. Tory low, Tory low show, we're talking about

energy surging, we're talking about data centers and we're talking about we energy

all in the conversation right now about ultimately, how do we move forward with these data centers

coming into our communities over the last couple months, we've been seeing community members

challenge the ideal of these data centers and we have also seen an increase in the energy bill.

Since the beginning of this year, so we try to make sense of it all, we got time, content and Antonio,

but in the studio, how do we make sense of a lot of this? Can we make sense of this or how can we

make sure that we get involved to where we're not so reactionary? I think that's the key. I think

that the more people participate in these processes, the better. We all lose if we just sit on

our hands and don't do anything. And so that's why, you know, it comes, it's been around for over 40

years, but and we've been in rate cases for a long time and we used to fight mobbell back before

I was, when I was a kid, when I went, when there was an AT one big AT and T back in a day,

when they were trying to raise prices. But now this case involving the data centers and will

whether they'll pay their fair share is probably the biggest non-rate case that we've been involved

in 45 years. And people can still get involved. There was a hearing last week, but as Antonio said,

that people can still submit their comments by tomorrow, by the end of the day tomorrow. So

on our website, we have a data centers page and we will, if you go to cubwi.org and click on our

data centers page, we've got a direct link to that public comments where you can just speak your

piece about what you, what you want to see and as things move forward. Yeah, but again, 100%.

Definitely contact your state, legislator, local public officials, not just to ask them to do

something, but they should have a position on this issue. So you shouldn't be able to be telling you

what they're going to do. You should not be able to reach out to a public official who does not

have a position on this issue with the understanding that it will impact you in your household. What

folks can do, because this is a marathon, this is a long battle, is support the organizations

who are on the front line. So Citizens Utility Board to Times Point has been around for 40 years.

It's a statewide agency. We can pour into that organization and become members. We can become

active and work that's happening that Walnut Wave, Metcalf Community Bridges. There are a number

of organizations who are collectively working to basically push back on the issue and influence

the process and be at the table. And so it's actively happening. There's a base that exists,

and it's an opportunity for people to connect with that base and help us be able to tip the scale

and have more influence on this issue. Mo, the elephant says, what is the website again?

CUB, like CUB, wi.org. So CUB, wi.org. CUB, wi.org. If you want to submit,

and then just look for the data center. There's an updates tab and just look for data centers.

And you'll get right there. You scroll down and it says submit your comment here.

Many times when I'm in the neighborhood in the community, we don't get this information

until after it's all over. And I thank you for coming in and really kind of shedding light

on this conversation, especially what can we do as people. Many times we hear these conversations,

we kind of go on about our business. And then months from now, we like, well, where was this,

how come we didn't know, you know, that's no longer the excuse. You can go get involved, get

active and make sure that your voice are hard. You said there was a hearing coming up tomorrow.

Tomorrow's the deadline for public comments. They have a hearing last week. It was just only on

Zoom, but dozens of people, scores of people showed up for that. And then, but the same case,

they're saying, we still want more input. And so tomorrow, this is on Zoom or this is just now,

it's just now, we just type in your comments. Okay. And you just type in your comments on your,

you could do it on your phone, on your on your computer, whatever you got. And if people need

assistance here in the city, you could stop down at the YWCA. Folks are on hand to help folks

enter their comments. YWCA at Martin Luther King Drive here in Milwaukee. All right, look,

YWCA on Martin Luther King Drive. If y'all got any questions, look, I'll say this, we cannot sit back

and watch these things happen because that way, we become vulnerable. And especially in my

neighborhood, in my community where a lot of people were already questioning the high energy

costs. And many times when you don't say nothing and you don't work to try to resolve it and

your voice is not being heard, you got to, you got to hold the water after you got to hold that

bucket. It's true. Real quick. One of the things that we've been working on with time and that

we actually collectively, we saved two years ago was the lift program. You know, the payment

program when you call in the we energies to set up your payment arrangements. That program was

that was on the chopping block, the lift program. Okay. It was on the chopping block. And we

are work collectively to prevent that from happening. And so we do have influence as a community,

as a right. Right. Your voices are powerful. And I was trying to tell people,

when you give your power to someone else, you lose it. But when you keep your power, you can

consistently make change. And this is why I say over the over and over and over again, you got to

be about that action. Because once you start being about that action, there's accountability.

We can't screen accountability and not show up. And it don't work like that. But they say,

faith what our works is dead. If you want accountability, you got to let your voice be heard.

Exactly. So short term file that comment by tomorrow, medium term, all these candidates,

whether it's for governor or legislature or senate, they're going to become and come and say,

you know, I want your vote. Well, you should ask them, what are you going to do? What are you going

to do about energy affordability? Right. And then long term, once they're all back in office,

watch it. It's take part in a take part. And get with us, find out information, sign up for our

updates. And we'll keep you informed and let you know how you can participate in more of these

cases down the road. If you had if you had vacant lots, several acres, and you wanted to put

enough solar to take care of the city, I want you to know it's illegal. Oh, wow. So we'd have to

go through court to try to make that happen. You can't just do it. That's right. So you can't

set up another alternative energy idea. Without going to court, you may can if you get someone

in lawyers that the the books guide in the brewers, if you get them lawyers, you might you might

come in and shake something. You can't you can't just get an average guy. You got to get the big

dogs. You got to come with that big. You got to have a big purse. To that point, our participation

in the case is year in and year out. On average, we spend in more than six figures on legal fees,

just participating in the cases. Oh, wow. Just participate. Just being there for wow. Just being

there for folks who were never and and part of that process before and it's a great thing that

they're involved. Well, Tom and Tony, I'm going to get y'all final words before we run the break.

I just want to say we appreciate you and really appreciate this opportunity. We have to normalize

this issue. And so if you want to know more, learn more, you definitely connect with us at the

Walnut Way Conservation Corps. And we'd be happy to share and tie you in to all the work that

we're doing on the ground. Yeah, and this stuff, this stuff may be wonky or technical at times,

but that's that doesn't matter because we're trying to put it in in plain language for folks

because this this this has been too wonky for for too long. And when the utilities

get their way when they say, don't worry, it's complicated. We got this. And then and then who wins?

The utility shareholders and who doesn't? The rest of us pay in the bills. So so that's why we want

people to stay involved in state and and and you're ready to learn more. And so come come to our

website. Learn more and we'll love to be back on the show anytime. Well, look, Tom, we'll look

Antonio. I appreciate the conversation today. Look, a lot of gyms went out there in the community.

Y'all got to be about that action. You know what I tell you? I tell y'all y'all can't just be

just looking up and then all of a sudden thinking that, you know, Jesus is going to come and help you.

Jesus said, faith with our works. You got to get to work. You got to let your voice be heard. You

got to speak up, speak, speak out when you see things going on. And this is one of those

conversations that you got to talk to elected official about. They should already have a prepared

attack or plan for this. And if they don't, you may not have the right person representing you.

Okay.