CapTimes Idea Fest | An Evening with Governor Tony Evers

Good evening and welcome to Civic Media's coverage of the Cap Times 2025 IDFS.

Tonight, live from UW-Madison's Memorial Union, we will hear conversations with writer and

editor Gary Graff and Governor Tony Evers, both moderated by David Moranis.

At 7 o'clock following Graff's remarks, Pat Critello of Mornings with Pat Critello would join us

for some IDFS recap and analysis, and then, at 7.30, Governor Evers will take the stage.

We go now live to Memorial Union for Cap Times IDFS.

Great to see you out again tonight. Welcome to the third evening of the 9th annual

Cap Times IDFS. I'm Paul Fanlin, publisher of the Capital Times, and I'd like to welcome

each and every one of you for being here tonight. I've told people over the last couple of nights,

it means the world to us to get the kind of record attendance we have this year,

and how it supports the locally-owned and managed capital times. If you're not already a member of

many of you are, I know, please consider becoming one. In times to come, we plan to do some members

only events, and so that's another reason to consider joining us. That'll be outside this

scope of the IDFS week. I want to direct your attention briefly to the listed sponsors on the

boards behind me. They, together, plus your support, make this fabulous event possible.

Oh, thank you. Our programs this week have felt remarkably timely, given what's going on in

the country, and this one is no exception. Journalist and author Garrett Graf is the former editor

of both Politico and Washingtonian magazines. He's also an instructor at Georgetown University.

He writes an online newsletter titled Doomsday Scenario. David Marinus tonight's moderator

describes it as perhaps the most pungent analysis of the current political landscape out there.

Garrett describes his newsletter as a mix of national security, politics, and history that attempts

to answer the question are things really as bad as they seem. He attracted much notice recently

with a post suggesting how the country may have just recently tipped into authoritarianism

in the last few weeks. He wrote in part, it's clear today America is different, and even if we fight

our way back, it will never be the same again. Garrett's newest book was released last month to

great acclaim. It's titled The Double Reached for the Sky, an oral history of the making and unleashing

of the atomic bomb. His books are for sale. That book in particular is for sale back in a lobby

and he'll be available after autographed copies, and I'm looking forward to reading it. I've read

reviews and they're terrific. In it, he draws on the voices as some 500 people who are the

witnessed or participated in the Manhattan Project, or the later bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Garrett is clearly among America's most important next generation of political thinkers.

We are thrilled that David Marinus invited him to Madison tonight, and then he accepted.

Please give a warm Madison welcome to Garrett Graf and David Marinus. Thank you.

Thank you everybody. So Garrett was kind of the boy wonder of Washington who bailed for his home

state of Vermont, something I can relate to. He claims that Vermont cheese is superior, but

but you can run, but you can run, but you can't hide, right? You go to Vermont, but what do you do?

You write a blog about Washington sort of, and it's one that I read

avidly even when it raises my blood pressure to a dangerous degree, but I thought of

of Garrett in another sense. My favorite political writer of all time was George Orwell,

and the reason was that not only was he rational and confident and able to relate his own

sensibility in a way that transcended ideology, but it was so clear, and he could write as he would

put it about what is in front of your nose, but you don't see until he writes it. And I think of

Garrett that way as sort of a young Orwell, which is most I could say about someone, or at least

a budding Orwell, but Doomsday scenario, man. Welcome to Madison, Dr. Dooms.

And I just really, you just said backstage about that title and what it was, you thought it might

convey and what it came to convey. What was it, what were you originally thinking of Doomsday scenario?

Thank you, David, for having me in those overly generous introductory words there.

It's a pleasure to be here in Madison. One of the really fun things about being on a book tour

is the chance to get out and see a lot of thriving independent bookstores around the country.

And it's fun here in Madison to see a thriving local media organization from the standpoint that

there are not very many of them that are as central to a community's fabric as cap times is here for

Madison. So my newsletter was supposed to be more fun than it is turned out to be.

I wrote a book in 2017 that was called Raven Rock that is the subtitle of the book is

the story of the US government's plan to save itself while the rest of us die.

And it was the history of the US government's continuity of government operations,

all of the sort of weird things that would happen during an after nuclear war, during the cold

war, sort of all of the history of presidential succession and all of those weird subjects,

you probably, some of you in the audience remember the, you know, birth the turtle and the duck

and cover drills of the elementary school in the 50s and 60s. And so the news that are originally

grew out of that and sort of this idea that a lot of what I write about is, you know, sort of

doomsday scenario planning and thinking about some of the worst things in the world that could happen.

But it was originally launched several years ago with a much more tongue-in-cheek idea that

the answer was supposed to be that things are not as bad as they seem.

Well, we'll get to the real doomsday as opposed to what the doomsday we're facing now,

but let's talk about that one first. I was really struck by something you wrote recently about ice.

We've all seen sort of on video clips the brutality of ice, which is horrible. But what Garrett

was able to document was the totality of ice and how it truly has become a paramilitary,

a military organization, the brown shirts of the Trump administration. Can you talk about what

you saw where they're taking people and what it's developed into?

Sure. So I've spent a lot of my journalism career actually writing about federal law enforcement.

And I've written a history of, I've written actually a couple of books on the FBI. I've spent

several years at Politico covering the wave of criminality and corruption in customs and

border protection and the border patrol that overtook that agency in the wake of its own

post-9-11 hiring surge. In something that will sound semi-familiar to anyone who is following

what is going on with ice right now, after 9-11 in the sort of late bush years, the border patrol

tried to double and triple in size in a very short period of time. And the answer is that there's

no healthy way for a law enforcement agency to grow that quickly at that scale. And what ended up

happening was the border patrol cut its training standards, it cut its hiring standards, it

pushed agents out into the field before they had been fully trained. And one of the ways that

hiring surges break organizations is what it also means is that people are pushed up into

supervisory and executive ranks before they are ready and before they are experienced.

And so what that meant at the border patrol and CBP, which is the parent agency that makes up both

the blue uniformed office of field operations that make up the people that you see at official

ports of entry as well as the green uniforms of the border patrol. That from over a seven-year

period at the end of bush through the early years of Obama, there were 2,170 border patrol agents

and CBP officers arrested themselves for misconduct, crime, and corruption. And what that meant

is that for that seven-year period, during the period that they were working or the period that

they were working, that during that period there was one, so this, I forget the exact years, but it

was sort of roughly 2008 to 2015. During that period, there was one CBP officer or border patrol

agent arrested every single day for seven years. And one would think that that was a lesson that

DHS would have learned. And we are now actually trying to speedrun that hiring surge

in all of the same ways with ICE today as they race to add 10,000 new officers that were funded

as part of the Republican spending bill this summer that will sort of turbocharge immigration

enforcement in the United States. And ICE is already repeating all of the same set of

mistakes that the border patrol made in the Bush and Obama years, including that they have already

cut their training length, which was already among the shortest of all federal law enforcement

agencies. And they are now setting up a training regiment that is just 47 days long

to become an ICE officer, as compared to the five or six months, for instance, that the FBI,

that it takes to become an FBI special agent. 47, of course, chosen not because it has a particular

educational level that it obtains, but because it is, of course, the number of the president

that Donald Trump is. And you know you are setting an agency up to fail when you are

setting its training standards as part of some cult of personality.

One can only imagine how many proud boys are going to get into this organization. But along

with that, they are depleting other agencies to fill the void, right? And can you talk about

where they are taking people from and how that is weakening so many other places?

Yeah, so one of the things that I was writing about this week was the extent to which

everything is becoming ICE. And we have this weird melange of federal law enforcement agencies,

but they each have their own distinct roles and responsibilities. DEA, ATF, Secret Service, FBI,

US Marshals, Diplomatic Security Service, IRS, Criminal Investigators. And basically all of these

agencies are now being seconded to ICE to work immigration enforcement. And that right now,

in the United States, it is roughly one out of five FBI agents is now working immigration

enforcement, which means that we have actually reassigned more FBI agents to immigration enforcement

than we reassigned to counter terrorism cases after 9-11. Half of all DEA agents are now working

immigration enforcement. And two-thirds of all ATF agents are now actually working ICE

immigration enforcement, including as well, you know, agents from Diplomatic Security Services,

IRS, Criminal Investigations. And so I think one way to look at what ICE is doing to us right now

is that the federal government has made a very specific decision that it is going to stop investigating

almost all federal crime in order to prioritize immigration enforcement. And so, you know,

think of the cases that we are not working right now on counterintelligence, on cyber crime,

on espionage, on counterterrorism, on domestic terrorism, on white collar crime,

human smuggling, human trafficking, I mean, drug smuggling, drug cartels, you know, just a huge,

this is an amazing, amazing time to be a criminal in the United States.

Well, yeah, in the White House.

Do you think that this will just, the 10,000 that they want to bring in, will they keep the other

people too and just make it sort of the police force of the United States? It's sort of hard to

tell because I think one thing that we have seen is that they are positing all other, effectively

positing all other federal law enforcement hiring through the end of the calendar year

in order to do this ICE hiring surge. And I think that, you know, that has some big downstream

implications in terms of people who are not going to be coming into some of these agencies and

offices. But across the federal government right now, there are 33,000 people who do not work

at ICE, who have been reassigned to work for ICE and support their immigration enforcement.

And if you add in state and local police officers who work on federal task forces like a violent

crimes task force or a joint terrorism task force who have been reassigned, that's another

8,000, which gets you to around 42,000 people all told who did not work for ICE on immigration

enforcement three months ago, who now are. And then you have the actual military. A couple of

months ago, I was in Austin, Texas at the LBJ school on a panel with Edmund McCraven,

who was literally shaking, talking about what's happening to the military and its political

politicization, underhexath and Trump and the way that they're using the military as a political

force in this country. What do you see there and can that be turned around, or is this a generational

change in the military that's going to be really difficult to deal with? So I think this is a problem

both on the military side and on the federal law enforcement side, which is, you know, I'm part of,

I think Donald Trump's evil superpowers is the way that he makes those of us who believe in

institutions, defend institutions that deserve actual reform and criticism. And so what I'm about

to say is not an endorsement of all of the behavior of all federal law enforcement across all of

American history, but we all as American citizens have a really vested interest in the moral legitimacy

of federal law enforcement. You know, much of our daily life is secured by the idea that most

Americans and most businesses in America are inclined to cooperate when the FBI shows up and says,

you know, hey, we've got a problem, you know, we need your help. You know, most of us are inclined

to be helpful to federal law enforcement when we can be. And what I think we are watching right now

is the administration torching the moral legitimacy and sort of goodwill that federal law enforcement

has built up across America over decades. And again, not in every community, not, you know,

these are not perfect records. I'm the first to, you know, criticize the FBI on various fronts.

But, you know, the idea that you have these communities, and you know, we're watching this in Chicago,

we're watching this in DC, we're watching this in communities all across the country,

where, you know, you have people in the streets driving away, you know, federal law enforcement

operations, or jeering national guards troops as they patrol in Washington, DC. Like, that's not

good for our country long term. And, you know, the national guard in particular is a unit where

it is not designed to be a domestic police force. And that is not why people join the national guard.

And the extent to which it is being used as some sort of augmentation of domestic police forces

is incredibly corrosive to the sort of fabric of a democratic and open society.

Many in the audience were here last night and heard Stacey Abrams, who was incredible,

sort of articulating a 10-point road to autocracy. And Jen Rubin and Norm Eisen were also filling in

a lot of that. You've written quite a bit about that. And in your mind, it's not that we're on the

road we're there. Talk about that. Yeah, I think there's a, I think that there's a mistaken

sense for a lot of people that there will be some bright line where sort of everything before

this is democracy and everything after it is authoritarianism. And what I think we saw unfold

in America over the month of August was our country tipping into something new. And what I mean

by that is it is a, you know, over the month of August we saw the military occupation of our

nation's capital. We saw the rise of these, you know, ice tactics of masked anonymous

agents of the state, you know, leaping out of unmarked vehicles and kidnapping people based on

the color of their skin, which is now legal according to the Supreme Court. And, you know,

we've seen sort of all of these weird moments, you know, President Trump taking a stake in

Intel for the U.S. government, you know, levying a unconstitutional, presumably unconstitutional

export tax on Nvidia, so it can export its AI chips. You know, we saw Tim Cook from Apple

show up in the Oval Office and literally hand the President gold on camera in order to curry

personal favor so that his company could continue operating. We saw the President over the month of

August, you know, begin to interfere in our nation's history with the Smithsonian in our culture.

You know, this is a President who believes that he personally should get to choose what plays

get performed on which stages. We saw him and this is sort of the type of thing that like goes by

very quickly and yet I think actually our moments worth mentioning, you know, he on sort of a

random Sunday afternoon, you know, tweeted out how he decreed that Major League Baseball needed to

induct Roger Clemens into the Hall of Fame immediately. And that sort of all of this is filtered

through this sense that his is the one true taste, that sort of all of American culture and history,

the books that we read, the plays that we watch, the sports that we watch should be reflections of

what he thinks is good. And that, to me, is the picture of authoritarianism. And so what I tried

to document was that sort of America today feels different and today is different than before.

And that doesn't mean that we are a fully authoritarian state. That doesn't mean that some of

this is not reversible. But it does mean to me that America has crossed a fundamental line

that we have never crossed before as a nation. And that regardless of the stories that we tell

ourselves about our country and about ourselves as a people, we have crossed a line that we never

thought could be crossed here in the United States.

Let me sort of say one more thing. So I just finished this book that was in the introduction that

was about the making of the Manhattan Project and the atomic bomb. And the most chilling chapter,

so it's an oral history. It's all in the first person of the voices of the people who participated

and lived it. And the chapter that was most chilling for me to work on was in, I was working on it

in January and February. And it was the chapter about the mostly Jewish refugee scientists

who fled the enveloping cloak of Hitler's fascism to come to the United States across the 1930s

and 1941. And it was their memories and stories of what it was like to watch fascism take over

their country. And the way that we'll sort of forever puzzle, I think historians and puzzle them

at the time, the extent to which Germany didn't put up a fight as it lost its democracy. And you had

all of these powerful people in Germany saying, and this I'm sure doesn't sound familiar at all,

don't worry, we can control him. Once he gets into power, he's not going to be as bad as he says he's

going to be, and we'll have good people around him who will control him. And they talked about

their neighbors, who the physicist talks about how he was stopped by one of his neighbors on the street

who had joined the Nazi party. And he knew that this physicist was Jewish and the sort of rising

anti-Semitism was driving a lot of these physicists away. And his neighbor stopped him to sort of say,

don't worry, I don't really believe all this stuff, but it was just going to be better for my career

if I joined the Nazi party rather than sort of stood up against it. And reading these quotes

just feels incredibly chilling, watching what we are living through right now.

I just happened to read a piece about the US Open and Trump's going there and the writer

was watching this woman cheer loudly for Donald Trump, and then she explained that she's afraid

she'd get deported if she didn't support him. I think that so many of us, or I should speak for

myself, but I'm sure there are millions of people like me who over the last few years have felt like

they were naive their whole lives, that they didn't think this could happen. Did you?

So I told this story actually in a column when I was writing about this sort of enveloping cloak

of fascism here in the United States, where for me there was one very specific moment. I was in

Washington in the 2008 financial crisis, and I was at one of those backgrounder lunchens that

reporters have with newsmakers. You probably went to approximately 5,000 of them.

I avoided them in your own career. And we were up on the hill with Eric Canner, who I think was

deputy whip maybe at the time, but sort of rising star in the Republican Party at the time.

And the House was considering whether to vote for that first big bailout.

And this was the moment you probably remember John McCain had suspended his campaign,

sort of everyone was sort of focused on getting this bill through that was, you know,

President Bush said was critical to the support of the economy, Hank Pulse and the secretary

of the treasurer, Ben Bernacky, the chairman of the Fed, John McCain, the Republican presidential

nominee. Everyone said that this was necessary to save the American economy. And we were sitting

in this luncheon and Eric Canner said we're going to vote it down. And we were all incredulous

because we were like everyone in your party, like your party is in control and your party says that

this is critical. Like how are you going to do this? And he was just like now we're going to vote

it down like no bailouts for Wall Street. And that's what they did. As you remember there was a day

they voted down that first bailout the stock market dropped 800 points, you know, it was this

incredibly dark moment in that fall of 2008. And I walked out of that luncheon feeling like I

had glimpsed. I remember it so vividly that I had glimpsed this sort of level of nihilism

in this sort of beating heart of what was coming to be the center of the Republican party.

That really worried me because it was this moment where I was like if you're not

willing to do the thing that's good for the country that sort of everyone agrees

is good for the country. Like that's a level of politics that until you know you can argue about

other examples etc etc. But that to me was sort of the first moment that I feel like I really saw

that and that I sort of long believed probably longer than I should have that there was going to be

some red line that the Republican party leadership would not trade for greed and power. And

some principles somewhere that they actually believed in at their core. And I think we have now

gotten to the point where we can sort of safely say that there is no principle that lies at the

heart of the modern Republican party that they will not treat that they will not trade for greed and

power. Garrett you weren't even born for Watergate where you know and yet you're a student of it

and looked at it with fresh eyes long after the fact. I'm curious about I mean I've read a lot

of what you've written about it but I'd like you to talk about sort of your perspective on it

from history's perspective and from today and Nixon and Trump. Yeah so I wrote a history

of Watergate that came out in 2021 I think 2022 and it was inspired by my years of covering the

first Trump administration and I was interested in what happened the last time our US system

confronted a corrupt and criminal president in office. And Watergate we sort of short-hand

as this burglary on June 17th 1972 at the Democratic National Committee headquarters.

But I think Watergate is best thought of as a mindset and not an event and it's this sort of paranoid

conspiratorial world view that Richard Nixon brings into the White House that then serves as an

umbrella for about 13 different and distinct scandals that of which the burglary is really only one

of them and what you saw to me Watergate is actually this incredibly inspiring moment in American

politics because you see the delicate ballet of checks and balances written into the Constitution

that all come together to force this president from office and sort of every single part of the

Washington structure has to work together and do its own part and you know the press, the justice

department, the FBI, the House, the Senate, the district court, the appeals court, the Supreme Court

sort of article one, article two, article three, the Bill of Rights sort of it's all written into

the fabric of Watergate and when you think about the difference between then and now one of the

things that really stands out to me is the extent to which the Republican members of Congress in Watergate

understood that their constitutional oath required them to act as co-equal members of the legislative

branch to hold the executive branch's abuses to account and that their first duty was to was as

members of Congress and that only second were they Republican and that that that Republicans

actually play an incredibly important part in Watergate um from Howard Baker to Little Wiker to

others um and what they understood was that Congress needed to protect its own prerogatives

and that sort of they had their own role in the House and the Senate to play in ensuring that

the presidency and the executive branch did not get sort out of control didn't get too much power

um and to me that's the single biggest difference that we have seen between then and now um and it's

sort of one of the things that I think the founders didn't ever possibly appreciate was the idea

that members of Congress would stand around and say well you know all those laws that we passed

you know it's totally fine if the president ignores them um you know if he he can do what he

want he's the president one of the themes that I've written about and thought a lot about over

the course of my career is um whether human human nature can change or whether the culture changes

around it so that leads to the question are these Republicans from that era were they better people

were they wiser or was it the culture that was the difference I think it's a little bit of everything

I think some of it is you have to and you know you've written a great book about this moment

as well and the collapse of faith in American institutions that occurred against the backdrop

of Nixon and the Pentagon papers and Vietnam um but there was really a belief in institutions

in that era um that we have lost um that uh you know one of the sort of most remarkable aspects

of the of what comes out of Watergate is this idea that presidents will lie to the American people

which was literally unthinkable at the start of Nixon's presidency but all presidents had lied

before all presidents have lied but that you see even Democrats in the midst of Watergate saying

well Nixon says he's not involved and he's the president he he wouldn't lie to us you know we

can't impeach him he's the president and that's the Democrats

um moving to the future before we get it to the past again um there was some interesting

discussions last night about 2026 both whether that's the most important thing or not whether

there are other uh ways of dealing with with autocracy that are equally important to that election

but do you think there will be an election? Absolutely this is this has never been a question to me

um every country in the world effectively has elections. It states that Russia has regular

elections. Saddam Hussein had an undefeated record in Iraqi elections.

Um you know what I think my concern and I think we're starting to see this in places like

Texas we're starting to see it in the deployment of the National Guard and ICE to American cities

um is the efforts by the Republican Party to lock in in illegitimate minority rule by selecting

who gets to vote in 2026 that in a closely divided country you don't actually have to change

that many districts that many votes um in order to really change the electoral map

and think of a election next fall in 2028 where they look exactly like every other election

that we are used to in America except just totally coincidentally the National Guard is deployed

to 10 major U.S. cities with minority heavy voting uh populations and those 10,000 new ICE officers

just happened to set up a whole bunch of uh ID checkpoints not at the polling places

but just sort of in the neighborhood of the polling places like you don't have to have that many

people stay home before you've really changed the electoral map just a few hundred thousand can do it

yeah yeah yeah and there's a million or a thousands of little things that are happening like that

right like and it's all part of you know Donald Trump's push to end mail-in voting

that matters in this scenario where you have to go through an ICE checkpoint in order to vote next year

like this these are not dis I think I think part of the challenge of Donald Trump is there's so much

that happens on any given day that it's easy to not think that all of these dots end up connected

in some way but they all point in the same direction

on a happier subject about nuclear war yes yes bring it on since you're on a book tour for the

devil reached the sky um what prompted you to tackle that one so this is my third bookline

volume of oral history um and I started with um a book in 2019 that was an oral history of 9-11

that's a book called the only plane in the sky um tomorrow of course the 24th anniversary the book

came out for the 19 oh sorry for in 2019 for the 18th anniversary which to me was this really

important moment where you began to see the first generation of Americans born after 9-11

coming into adulthood in a world shaped by 9-11 but who were too young to remember it

and the 9-11 that they know um is the one that they read in history books

and the history that we tell of 9-11 goes like this the attacks begin at 846 in the morning the

whole thing is over 102 minutes later at 1028 with the collapse of the second tower there are four

planes four attack sites and 3,000 people die and that is entirely factually true but if any of you

remember 9-11 that's not the day that you remember experiencing we didn't know when the attacks

began we didn't know when the attacks were over for most of the day we didn't know how many hijacked

planes there had been remember as leaders one o'clock eastern time the US government believed there

were still a dozen hijacked airliners in the skies over North America we also didn't think that

these were attacks that were in any way confined only to New York, Washington and Shanksville,

Pennsylvania um you know skyscrapers were evacuated across the country Disneyland closed it was only the

second time in history Disney had ever actually closed the Toronto subway was evacuated I mean there

was a real sense throughout that day of fear chaos confusion and trauma and so if you only read about

9-11 in history books you don't get that fear chaos confusion and trauma and if you don't understand

the fear the chaos the confusion and the trauma you don't understand why America reacted in the way

that we did and to me there's a power that uniquely comes in oral history that lets you experience

these moments in the eyes of the people who lived them at moments where they didn't know the outcome

that I think I've written narrative history you are a master of narrative history but so much of the

way that we tell history makes events seem leader cleaner simpler and more preordained than they

felt to anyone who lived them at the time look at this moment that we are living through right now none

of us know how this story ends we don't know right now whether we're in the beginning the middle

or the end of the story and so from that 9-11 book I wanted to go back to World War II because World

War II is at the opposite end of that arc of history right now you know we've been experiencing

these 80th anniversary's of the end of the war including leading up to the last last Tuesday

and the 80th anniversary of the surrender ceremonies in Tokyo Bay and I think they feel so

poignant because we are also marking the unofficial passing of the greatest generation who fought

and won those wars and so from a historian's perspective I was attracted to it because we have at

this moment every first person memory we are ever going to have a World War II and to try to tell

these stories I did I started with a book on D-Day last year and then this one on the Manhattan

project in the atomic bomb where to try to tell these stories through the eyes of the people who

lived them before they knew how the stories would turn out that sort of what was it like to go to

work on the Manhattan project when you didn't know who was going to win World War II the motivating

factor for the start of the Manhattan project is the idea that Adolf Hitler is building a bomb too

and you can't understand the Manhattan project unless you understand how the pressure that those

scientists felt that they were under from 1940 to 1944 was the idea that Adolf Hitler and

Werner Heisenberg were at work at the same time on a bomb and they didn't know whether Hitler was

going to get the bomb first they didn't know who was going to win they didn't know whether the

atom bomb would work at all and trying I think to sort of understand that history and what it was

like to experience those moments in the eyes and the voices and the footsteps of the people who

lived them I think is incredibly important both to understand in the past but because it also I

think helps us look at our current moment with fresh eyes which is none of us know how this

story turns out and I think one of the things that telling these stories through oral history has

helped me better recognize is that I think we over index in our own sense of the future that the

future is going to look more like the past than it has to and that we sort of I think wrongly

and I think this one of the things that the press court gets really wrong about this moment right

now is the idea that America's future will sort of be within a standard deviation or two of what

America's past has been and there is no guarantee of that and that to me there's a real power that

comes in going back and looking at these voices that helps better shape how we have to consider

what our own future is going to be we'll get to the press very soon I would just want to ask

one more question about oral history I imagine that what do you do with oral history and what I do

to write a narrative history we do the same sort of research but what what what did you go through

to compile this oral history? Yeah so I do I'm a Vermonner home of the world's best Kabat cheese

and one of the things that I sort of always talk about in oral history is oral history is like

making maple syrup that it is a very slow long boil and it's in it is the opposite of normal

writing because it's all subtractive not additive I spend months you know building this huge

file of sort of every possible quote of any possible subject that I want to cover in the book

this is this book is pulled from you know it's about 500 voices from the Manhattan project

and all sides of the the World War II including the so-called Hippocusa the bomb affected people

in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and it's pulled from about a hundred memoirs a half dozen large scale

oral history projects by places like Oak Ridge Tennessee and then you know actually a lot of Nobel

prize lectures for this one Jay Robert Oppenheimer's thousand page transcript of his atomic energy

commission security hearing was a really useful primary source and I sit down at the sort of

start of the writing process which is really a deleting process with a document that is about

1.4 million words and it's about 4,000 pages in the average long book is 200,000 words and then

spend months just deleting and boiling away of between 90 and 95% of that to get down to sort of

the finished final golden syrup but I imagine to use another metaphor I mean it must be a jigsaw

puzzle too you know we're put everything right yeah and that to me that to be a sort of part of

what is really fun about it is you get you get the ability to sort of you know one of the things

again oral history really shows is how all of us only understand things from our own personal

perspective and we're often actually very bad at transforming our perspective into sort of what

it means to history and this was a this was something that actually really came to me when I was

doing the 9-11 book I was I got access to an incredible trove of oral histories that the 9-11

Memorial and Museum in New York had compiled over the years and most of the characters in all of

these books sort of come and go in a single chapter or even a single quote and there are very few

characters that you sort of follow through the whole arc of a story for the 9-11 book one of those

people ended up being Richard Eiken and Richard Eiken was one of the only survivors from above

the 90th floor of the North Tower and he's injured in the initial attack makes his way all the way

down the tower it takes him a really long time he's caught in the collapse he ends up at a hospital

in Lower Manhattan and then is sort of terrified of follow-on attacks and so in a hospital down

breaks himself out of the hospital walks across the Brooklyn Bridge and hitch hikes his way

home on a pickup truck in Brooklyn and there's this photo that someone took that sort of only linked

up with him years later where you see him walking across the Brooklyn Bridge carrying a snapper

which was sort of his only possession that he had that day and I actually got to meet Richard

at the 9-11 memorial after the book came out and he said to me you know I can't believe you

included my story in the book and I was like Richard I read 2,000 oral histories of people on 9-11

and yours was one of the five you know craziest wildest stories and he had just never made that

leap from sort of what his personal experience represented across the sort of totality of human

experience that day and there was another one from that same book I'm just thinking of these stories

so much this year at this time of year every year where this other office worker in the World Trade

Center you know caught in the collapse etc etc makes it home to New Jersey and then is surprised

because it's Tuesday night and it's the team photo night for his like P.W. team football team

and he calls someone else on the team and they say you know well obviously the team photos cancelled

tonight and he goes why and they're like buddy like the nation was attacked and worked war and he

just hadn't made that leap yet because he was like I just had a really bad day at work

like I just started like it hadn't sort of adjusted to him yet that this was not something that

just happened to him and sort of his office in lower Manhattan this was something that had happened

to the whole country. You're listening to W.A. UK Jackson Milwaukee W.M.D. X Columbus Madison W.C.F.W.H.D.2 W.228 EP Chippewa Falls

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The grandest operations in human history I mean this is the largest invasion in

world history on there are a million allied combatants on the move across the United Kingdom

and the English Channel on June 6th 1944. For almost everyone on D-Day their entire story

takes place on like a stretch of sand about the size of this stage you know you talk to these

paratroopers or you listen to these paratroopers and you know some of them only ever see one

hedge in Normandy for the entire day. Some of them spend the entire day alone you know there

are these incredible stories of these paratroopers dropped into the Norman Hedros who spend the

entire day without seeing another single allied soldier and sort of wonder all day like did the

landings ever happen or am I be like only person on this side of the English Channel?

That's true of every battle you know the individual sees only what they know.

The best book I ever read on that was actually the Charter Herzl Parma where they describe

the sort of one you know individuals on what they see. We could talk all night we only have a

few more minutes so let me ask you a couple of more personal questions the first of which is

I grew up in a journalism family you know the reason I'm here tonight is because of my father

and you did as well I'm wondering what sort of your father was the head of the AP in Vermont

and what was it like did you have ink in your blood and what did your father impart to you?

Yeah so I'm a third generation journalist. So my grandfather who I'm actually named after

was the drama critic for the New York Herald Tribune in the 30s and 40s and started out covering

cops in Pittsburgh in the 1930s and then my father spent about 30 years as the head of the

associate press office in Vermont. My mother is actually a magazine writer and author as well

and I just sort of always grew up interested in journalism and continued to be in part because

it's just like to me if you're a nerd and if you're curious like there's just no better job like you

get to sort of wake up and think about things that you're interested in and then call people

and call the smartest possible people on whatever the subject is that you're interested in

and then they'll just talk to you and they'll sort of explain whatever the thing is that you're

interested in. Great. One last question I know that one of the reasons you left Washington

went back to Vermont was thinking about running for office as a lieutenant governor that didn't

happen for various reasons but the ten years I think that they said he had to be a resident for

ten years and those ten years are up. Well so I'm very happy on the journalism side in part because

I think this is a moment and this comes back a little bit to where we I think started the conversation.

This is a moment that requires real clarity and I think one of the things I am not I am not a

Bob Woodward journalist you know talking about Watergate and in terms of investigative journalism

finding the one document that no one has ever found but I think I have some talent in explanatory

journalism and sort of explaining why things are the way that they are and to me that's sort of

the fun of being able to move back and forth as I do between my writing of history and writing of

journalism in trying to use history to help better explain the story of today. I'm glad that's

your answer and your explanatory abilities and your clarity is what make you great so thank you so

thank you David.

We're listening to civic media's coverage of Cap Times IDFS 2025. We'll be right back with Pat

Cratewell of Mornings of Pat Cratewell with the recap of the other events of this convention.

And good evening everyone welcome to civic media coverage of Cap Times IDFS. I'm Pat Cratewell

founding editor of Up North News host of mornings with Pat Cratewell weekdays 6 to 9 am on many of

these civic media stations nice to have you along as we engage in a little intermission chatter

ahead of the next portion of IDFS one that a lot of folks and I do mean folks are waiting for

because that of course signifies governor Tony Evers will be coming on just about 15 minutes

from now or so along with Dave Moranis. The conversation with the governor will wrap up Wednesday's

third day of activity but there's still plenty more to come for IDFS. The ninth annual thought festival

kicked off on Monday afternoon with a discussion of the effects of artificial intelligence and it

just rolled on from there with all kinds of speakers. If you've missed some of them already

I'm sure there'll be plenty of opportunity to read about them in the Cap Times and elsewhere

there was a good discussion on Trump and Jerry Mandarin and the rule of law a one-on-one with

marine doubt ways to keep Dane County's lakes clean high quality apprenticeships addressing

workforce needs in Wisconsin and beyond there's a Wisconsin sports cast there with Tony Granada

there was Norm Eisen and Jennifer Rubin with a panel called the Contrarians and there was a one-on-one

with Stacey Abrams that we'll talk about more in just a bit and then of course earlier today

the schedule called for helping you navigate your health care and also breakthroughs to cures on

immunotherapy all leading up to the conversation you just heard Doomsday scenarios a conversation

with Garrett Graff which was a very fascinating conversation you you understand why his blog is

called Doomsday scenario the former editor of political magazine and Washingtonian magazine

keeps a pretty strict account of the Trump administration's attacks on democracy all these years

in his most recent post entitled America Tips into Fascism he writes I think many Americans

wrongly believe that there would be one clear unambiguous moment when we go from democracy to

authoritarianism instead this is exactly how it happens what we're seeing right now a blurring

here a norm destroyed there a presidential dictate unchallenged and then you wake up one morning

and our country is suddenly different a lot of good points that he made he talked about how

federal law enforcement by and large is being brought to a stop by we're talking counterintelligence

we're talking cybercrime espionage domestic terrorism human smuggling white collar crime a halt

to hiring new law enforcement officers and all these agencies all in service to an agency called

ICE that is undergoing explosive growth all to enact a mass deportation strategy

making it much more of a priority to seize Maria in housekeeping than literal drug cartels

or Wall Street Ponzi schemes or as graph put it tonight it's an amazing time to be a criminal

in the United States and Dave Moranis returned with or the White House he graph said this

administration is torching the moral legitimacy of what law enforcement has built up in America

all right what we'll do now is look at or I should say listen to because again it's still radio

let's listen to some of what Stacey Abrams had to say and that she was talking to Maggie Dawn

Stacey Abrams is a democratic political strategist a former Georgia legislator she twice ran

for governor in Georgia she's a tireless voting rights advocate Abrams founded the Fair

Fight Organization she's also written 17 books as cap times writer Becky Jacobs put it in her

story near minutes after appearing on stage Tuesday Stacey Abrams quickly dissected the

differences between a democracy and authoritarianism and outlined what she views as the 10 steps to

autocracy she talked about it Tuesday on the Maggie Dawn show here is a seven minute clip from that

conversation we've got leader Stacey Abrams with us this afternoon to close out this show we're so glad

that you are all with us right before the break we were talking about in these 10 steps to autocracy

and authoritarianism step three is weaken competing powers this has been part of the republican

playbook when it comes to voting access and voting rights for 30 years it is sort of reached

fever pitch at this moment and you have one of your passions if I can say has been voting rights

and access to the voting booth what should all people regardless of party preference be concerned

about the particular ways that the mega regime has been eroding both trust and faith and

election processes but almost as importantly if not more importantly access the actual franchise

the access to the voting booth and the right to vote itself so step three you weaken competing

powers and step ten you try to ensure that there are no future elections of import uh so we have

to remember that Russia has an election every two years but we always know who's going to win so

they don't eliminate voting they eliminate the power of the vote and republicans have been

assiduously attacking the power of the vote for the last 30 years with consum as ground zero

when this constant pass its voter ID on 20 2014 you all face a supreme court case where a black

woman was denied the right to vote because her ID did not come with an original birth certificate

but because she was born during the Jim Crow era she was denied a compliant birth certificate so

when we hear the language of oh voter ID it no one disagrees that you should have ID everyone

aggressively believes that you should have ID the question is what type of ID what are the

requirements for that ID that's what's been weaponized you talked about the spectra voter fraud which

is a complete and utter myth there is no voter fraud it is more likely that you will be struck by

lightning because fraud means intent to pretend to do I mean I'm not going to go into too much you

tell but put it this way you are more likely to get struck by lightning than someone is to commit

voter fraud in this country we have an issue with voter participation not voter fraud but the larger

narrative that we have to understand is that they do not want people to participate in elections and

if they do they want to make it so difficult that it seems nearly impossible for it to matter and

the way I talk about voter suppression is can you register and stay on the roles can you cast a

ballot and does that ballot get counted but with their also machinery they are also manipulating

is what we're watching happen in Texas and now in Missouri what they are trying to do an other

stage which is they're trying to redraw the lines in the middle of the process so that they can't

lose anymore that's the voter manipulation that we need to watch but we also have to recognize

they're also trying to defund election security they're trying to blackmail local governments

and so our responsibility is to demand access not just to the ballot but to the power of the vote

that when we vote for someone that person should be the person who's actually elected to hold power

not just the vote itself but the power of the vote the import of the vote because it stands for

how we hold government accountable without the power behind the vote I understand why people have

felt disengaged when that system works it makes you feel disengaged and that is its primary objective

so you stay home and nothing matters anymore I want to briefly pivot with the time that we've got

left one of the Donald Trump sort of brand indicators is that he specifically targets individuals

by name he loves the nicknames we can call him little hand Don you know the orange king

right all of it but he loves to give everybody nicknames and he loves to attack individuals

and to bring the power of the mega regime mob down on individuals and in fact in his pseudo

state of the union address after being sworn into office this very year he named checked leader

Abrams let's take a listen 1.9 billion dollars to recently created decarbonization of Holmes

committee headed up and we know she's involved just at the last moment the money was passed over

by a woman named Stacey Abrams have you ever heard I'll just say this leader Abrams when the

entire Republican caucus of the U.S. Congress booze that is a huge personal accomplishment so

I'll say congratulations to you but this this targeting of individuals whether it's Marco

Is the law firm he used to work for going after Judge Dugan with a criminal prosecution the

selective prosecution of an LGBTQIA lambda lawyer in Alabama this individual intimidation is

designed for a broader purpose what is it so this is a combination of step seven and step eight so you

scapegoat the marginalized scapegoat communities of color you scapegoat women you scapegoat

the LGBTQIA plus community you go after communities using DEI which is why you watch this president

and this administration and this party attack diversity equity and inclusion because they are

terrified that it actually works and then you connect that to step eight which is the civil

society that protects all of us the lawyers who fight for us the universities who teach us the

philanthropies that invest in us the protesters who speak up for us but here's the thing if you are

the average white guy in Wisconsin who's trying to figure out why does DEI matter to you I would

point out that the very first act of DEI in this country was the revolutionary war when we decided

that you didn't have to be a land holding man white man in this country to have purpose and

meaning and a vote we fought an entire war to guarantee that white men of every economic class

could participate fully in this country and from that we grew the rest of DEI and it has taken us

250 years but it is in our DNA that diversity equity and inclusion be who we are because it's

started with making sure that white men of every stripe had access to what they needed and the rest

of us simply want to be a part of it as well this is not about taking from one to give to the other

it is about expanding acts of opportunity because we all deserve access to the American dream

and if we believe in DEI then we are patriots and if we don't then we are denying who we are as a

nation and we are on the wrong track because all of us deserve the opportunity to be successful in

this country that is Dacey Abrams on the Maggie Dawn show yesterday now coming up you're going to

hear Dave Moranis interview Tony Evers the interesting part here is that Dave Moranis has deep

Madison Roots according to Paul Fanlin he's interviewed over 40 prominent figures at Cap

Times IDFS since it began in 2017 but apparently Moranis has never met Tony Evers it's going to be

a very interesting conversation coming up from Cap Times IDFS I'm Pat Crite Low catch me 6am tomorrow

cross the civic media radio network the conversation with governor Tony Evers is coming up next

you are listening to the civic media coverage of the Cap Times IDFS 2025 we go now back to memorial

union where they're preparing for Tony Evers our governor to speak on his decision not to run

next year for governor

you

you

hello again everybody

well I think the next hour is going to be absolutely a fascinating conversation I'm glad you're

here has been excited about this one welcome again to our 9th annual Cap Times IDFS I do want to

take a moment to thank our sponsors who make this possible in addition to all of you for participating

with your ticket purchases and our big three sponsors this year are epic exec sciences and the

UW Health the Carbone Cancer Center please yeah give them a hand I I really thought that due to

the carbons of session the preceding aircraft was wonderful and I appreciate so many of you for

being here it was terrific thanks to our other sponsors Madison Gaston Electric the Ascendium

Education Group the University of Wisconsin Madison the University Research Park the Century

House Tenzy Spices the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation the Madison Community Foundation

Cargo Coffee the Freedom from Religion Foundation the Forward Theatre Company Leopold's Books Bar

Cafe and Madison College thank you that'd be great if you give them the hand I appreciate it

our partners our partners here are Hinkley Productions Civic Media Wisconsin Public Radio

Wisconsin State Journal and Madison.com and appreciate David Marinus who's doing double-duty

tonight he's the moderator on back-to-back session so thank you David it is indeed my honor to

welcome Wisconsin's 46th governor to our stage tonight Tony Evers has spent 50 years in public

service as an educator and as our governor those of you who follow my columns might know I've

interviewed the governor many times beginning in 2018 with his first gubernatorial campaign

and I've written many times how I think he has been underestimated that he is one of the most

authentic and humble leaders I have encountered in 45 years of running about politics in the state

most important governor Evers has served as a bulwark against an extremist republican legislature

that is not there because of their had been there because of their popular policies but because

of some of the most absurd jerrymandering in the country which you've heard about all week and so

that's so gratifying is a freer fairer and more just place in a way that will touch the life

of every Wisconsin kid I've also always appreciated the governor's

role sense of humor in 2019 the first time I sat down with him and his spacious and our

neat office in the capital Z swing I commented that the last time we talked was across the street

in his cramped campaign office storage room surrounded by a mountain of boxes he said Paul he told

me if it would make you more comfortable we can bring in some boxes please welcome governor Evers

and David Marinus

thank you thank you so much thank you thank you

I have to open my mountain do here diet mountain doy ask if it was okay if you brought it out on stage

it's a bad for you sorry uh governor Evers it's a pleasure for me to

beat you tonight for the first time ever I'm sure that hundreds of folks in the audience have

have gotten to know you better than I although I follow you from afar with great interest in

rooting for you and I also discovered tonight that probably the best thing that governor Evers

and I have it in common is that we married our high school sweet arts and we're both still married

yes how about that 53 years

so you've been standing up to regressive and repressive Republicans for quite a while

I thought that maybe you should get Reggie White's old title as minister of defense

I know he's got a few pounds and a few few more inches than I do so I am who I am but um I thought

I mean you've had many great moments but in my opinion your finest hour was months ago when

you stood up to Tom Homan with your I am not afraid speech about the threatening to arrest you

can you take us through how you fought out about it how you decided to give that speech and the

whole ambiance of that day yeah I actually thought if I remember correctly I just saw him talk

about me on TV I don't see an end MSNBC and I thought well you jackass

who do you think you are saying that saying that they're gonna arrest me or whatever it was it

was just ridiculous and it's that kind of personal politics that makes people sick of politics

it's when it's personal especially you know it's one thing to say I disagree with you it's

another way another thing to say I think I throw you in jail I mean there's a difference there and

and that's sort of approach and I've seen him on TV subsequent to that and it's pretty much

that's who he is and that's somebody that the president obviously has great love for and

and so that's the way the administration is operating that said yeah make you know have

added throw 73 year old man into prison see if it's gonna make any difference

and what did you decide to give that the speech for the whole state to year yeah I think it was

the next day or the day after I mean we we thought about it and we thought yeah I have to respond

especially when somebody's kind of threatening you in that in that fashion and it's not that I really

thought that he would start shaking in his boots thinking God I gotta start stop doing that but

at least it caused out bad behavior and so a minimum we did that

and it's standing up to a bully which usually they don't know how to react to that when somebody

does stand up to them but that was back in May and it's only gotten worse since then in so many

ways and at that point as I remember it he was saying that they would throw you in jail because you

wanted to just do legal things to let state agencies know how they respond yeah absolutely

so if you took it to today and they went into Milwaukee what would you do why do everything I

could stop them I mean there are probably things that I don't have authority to do but at the end

of the day the you know the issue of the National Guard is an issue that is a no-brainer I'm

ahead of the National Guard in Wisconsin great group of men and women that train they go across

the world to support our troops elsewhere but they're not trained as police officers and so you

see what they're doing in Washington DC it's all you know taking care of the lawn and putting

the mulch out here and there and wearing uniform I guess that is some way to scare the women

daylight so to people but the National Guard are not police officers and so that's my we would do

everything we can to stop that from happening everything they can as a little general do you have

specific plans that you weren't talking about yeah I'm not I'm not going to be able to

to address that at this time but you do have you have a plan yes okay um whoa

we'll let someone answer is that huh or uh they're coming after you right now is he here

I don't it I compared you to to Reggie White but it's more apt to compare you um perhaps to

presidents Clinton and and Biden in Obama who had to play defense and especially in the final

years of their terms where you've had to do it pretty much the whole the whole time um

um and it we'll get to this later but it's kind of ironic that you've survived that brilliantly

over two terms and then some future democratic governor might not have to do that again right

right yes if jury members it's my it's my gift it's my gift to the world no the um but what it did

I mean I was I wasn't exactly a landslide win the first time or the second time wrong but first

time it was just a little over one percent but I was a Democrat and I won the seat and uh the

legislature was completely almost completely read certainly of politics and it's sure frankly I

think it showed Wisconsin that there's something wrong with the maps here in the state we talked

about it a lot uh for years I'm sure most of the people out here talked about it a lot but

and I'm not saying this is this is a great Tony thing but the fact of the matter is is that I won

beaten incumbent pretty powerful incumbent that had done several lots of important things most of

the negative and um uh and I won that race and the legislature made no difference because it was

all red and I think that put us in a much better place to change maps subsequent to that and that

was a huge deal for us at state of Wisconsin huge yes it put everything in a better place except

for you as governor in a sense yeah but so did you develop a strategy if I had to deal with this

Republican legislature over the two terms over two terms yes because they understood that after we

had fair maps that uh we have to work with this guy and uh we have to if we want to accomplish some

things we have to maybe compromise that starts their come their point of view and um and we did

that with the last budget and a lot of other things but the one thing that was good is that the

governor has some pretty powerful ways to uh we didn't we can veto all sorts of things and we

and we did and we we were able to because of the Senate uh we were able to um make sure that

or they sent it out of the assembly that that they didn't have any super majority and that was

that was critical so horrible things we stopped simple you know I there's a whole bunch of them

by the horror of bunch of them yeah what would you say was the most important thing that you stopped

it really changed this well they they wanted to change the maps to make it even worse and uh you

know that was that would put us out for another hundred years and and so there there's just no way

so that we we voted we vetoed several um bills that had to do with that

well let's go back to the end your decision not to run for a third term I've done some reporting

on this and I know there were several factors but the one that struck me because I'm a writer

um would place you out in the middle of Lake Mendoza on a petal boat with your wife

alone yeah thinking about that yeah and how did that influence your decision or look of course

it it was it was hard I love this job a lot of people in this room I hope at least 51% of people

in this room voted for me and I would say about more than that just kidding and um and I love the

job and I can say this with all honesty I learned something new every day and uh that's important to

me in a whole bunch of ways but I think it makes me a better governor and uh in addition I had a

chance to um kind of set my days and how I operate and uh I just I made it very clear right from

the beginning that if I was going to represent the people of Wisconsin I needed to be in Wisconsin

and instead of being in the capital a lot I would say out of a five day week or six day week or

seven day week um I was out of the out of the capital four or five days and that makes a whole

difference you know visiting schools visiting businesses visiting nonprofits your name it

going into going into small towns and going to every single small town on every single

main street business in various places in the state I learned something every time I'd done that

and that's what made me uh I think made me successful as a governor I don't I don't talk about

myself and that was ways too often but I guess I can now that I'm leaving the office but that was um

that was really important to me and I forgot your original question I went up too far

well it wasn't about that but it was about deciding not to run and and I really want you to be out

on Lake Midota and that pedal boat yes yes so those are all the good things and I could have said

yeah I can do this another year or another four years but when it came down to it um it was about

kids and grandkids and Kathy and we yes we were several times out in the middle of the lake talking

about this and you know now when we go out in the middle of the lake we think oh my god we got

about we got to buy a house we got to buy two cars what are we gonna do with all these clothes

that I no longer gonna need uh so the conversations have changed a bit but uh yeah it was it was it

was all about kids grandkids have nine grandkids we have three children and uh god knows how many

we're gonna have great grandchildren down the road and 50 years in state service or local government

service uh uh it was time and so it was a really hard decision to make and um but no regrets

was that that going out four or five times a week being around people around you all the time

is that a double edged sword did you also want more privacy than you were a lot at his governor or

did you thrive off that oh that's it was great uh I I have met so many people made so many

friends and uh uh and you know we spent a lot of time or I spent a lot of time up north and north

northern Wisconsin is pretty red area but when it comes down to it uh those merchants on uh you

know on a five thousand city population those those people that are doing no good work whether it's

in a on a farm whether it's in small towns they they see me as uh as a good person as somebody that's

actually helping them yeah you're 73 years old um age can be a factor in politics I'm not

accusing you in any way of slipping except for one thing which I might have to take back after I

say it but that was uh your performance announcing the vote at the democratic convention

we don't want to talk about that got me going here is you know what happened there oh it was a

down to sing um I had it all I had somebody gave me a script that I didn't particularly like and so

I was trying to do things on the fly and that obviously didn't work but but also the the person

I can't think was the email uh that was on the other side that was asking me the questions

is from Wisconsin and I wanted to talk to him directly so I was talked I was trying to talk to him

when I was talking a lot thousands of people yeah that was a mistake that was a mistake but um it was

uh it was a great convention obviously uh that was a kind of a major scope uh I got over it uh

and I think most people did too but the uh end of the day is a is a great convention we had a good

candidate and uh unfortunately she didn't win that was that was that was sad but my only thought when

I was watching you on television is why isn't he wearing a cheesehead Ben Wickler had one on did you

decide that that wouldn't be uh I've got a bit I have a bigger head no kidding I was going to say

something else no kidding I there wasn't a cheese hat that fits your head that would fit my head

you have a bigger head than Ben Wickler yeah yeah no kidding isn't yeah I tried on a couple I said

these don't fit and it's going to fall off that would have made things worse I mean could it's

imagine having a cheese fall off we're getting your lines and uh say okay 55 to one or whatever it was

yeah when Bill Clinton screwed up in a convention he wouldn't played the saxophone afterwards

to wake up for it yeah you didn't have to do that yeah I I never played the saxophone and uh

and I'd be I played Cornell and junior high school and when I went to the high school

the music teacher said don't play anything anymore

so I never had the opportunity to be in a marching band

I presume I think safely that you're not going to endorse in the gubernatorial primary

that's correct is that correct that's correct um I'm curious about sort of the role of the

governor and lieutenant governor to the extent you can talk about it I know that historically sometimes

those two politicians are not even that close um what was your relationship like with with

Sarah Rodriguez and what did you make of her yeah Sarah's she want you know they they run separately

in the primaries and uh she had a really a strong opponent and she won uh quite handily and so I

was really impressed with that you know it wasn't it's it's always interesting because you you don't

select the the person that's lieutenant governor some many states you do yeah right and uh but

she ran a good race and obviously she's a really smart person and uh that does a good job

around the issues of health and so on and and um the the working relationship is no different

Mandela Barnes was with me for a couple years and he did a good job also but it's it's really

two I mean it's two separate they you know they pinch it for me when I can't make things but at the

end of the day um we left we both Mandela and and Sarah pretty much can do what they want to do

that they feel is important they're big adults they can handle that so I've imparted my ignorance

on this but how would you compare it with the president and vice president do you in other words

you don't really instruct the vice the lieutenant governor on what you what assignments you'd like

them to carry yeah you know it's they pinch head occasionally but the uh it's it's I you know it's

I don't want to make this sound wrong but it's it's not a tightly run machine there and uh

and never and looking back on other governors it's it's never been you know it's never much

different in Wisconsin it's it's two people ever selected separately and then put together

where I got along with both they both had strengths and uh and tried to build on the strengths

one of your last acts was maybe your coolest which is adding the 400-year language into the education

funding bill yeah uh how did that come about how did you think of it and will it have any

impact beyond being symbolic well 400 years that's a long time uh the uh yeah it it it is significant

and it'll take some doing for the uh for that to change I mean there'd have to be and there

have to be a Republican governor and a Republican legislature and probably could change that law

but the the good news is we have some really good people I want to say that we we worked real

I worked real hard I looked at every every every line and a budget bill that big we we have people

that actually that is their job is to see where we can use our veto and that's one of the things

that they came up with and uh there's a damn good one

so again excuse my leader it's on this part of the state government but that

language is added into a veto as opposed to just the budget itself correct and we crossed off things

off yeah line veto lines and numbers and things like that and uh voila

if someone said let's add 400 years to this thing well there was there were some numbers in there

yeah I can't remember 20 24 something yeah 20 40 to whatever and you cross out a few things

and voila you got you got you got 400 so if that was what of the happiest moment said pulling that

one off what what was your darkest moment as governor would you say oh there haven't been many to

be honest I um uh it you know I think the the most important thing we we've done is uh develop

fair maps now we have to spend some time making sure that we have a process an independent

process to do it again when we do this and at the end of the decade and I think and I think we

will I think I think we can get that done um I you know there were no times that I felt more

roast about anything you know there there were things that uh uh you know like this last time around

we you know I'm an educator I make sure that we do the best we can for our K through 12 system

and our K through in our higher education folks and uh we just couldn't move the needle as far as

we needed we made some huge progress but not enough and so things like that are are you know

not the greatest outcomes but at the end of the day there wasn't uh uh anything significant I

mean obviously during the pandemic uh we did some things that uh uh you just you know you hated

to influence and and make people maybe do some things that they didn't want to do like stay at

home wear a mask that sort of thing but at the end of the day those are the right things to do

uh it's just you know we knew that uh we were uh making some people um angry and uh we weren't

going to participate in making sure everybody stayed healthy but at the end of the day I don't have

any any moment that I thought this job really sucks or anything like that no you're listening to

W-A-U-K Jackson Milwaukee W-M-D-X Columbus Madison W-C-F-W-H-D-2 W-2-2-A-E-P Chippewa Falls W-F-H-R Wisconsin

Rapids W-I-S-S Ashkosh W-Z-B-U New Holstie W-L-A-K Amory W-L-C-X LaCrosse W-R-C-E Richland Center

N-W-B-Z-H Hayward a part of the Civic Media Radio Network um the answer is yes and no uh the you

know we we have a group of Republicans in a legislature that are as strongly right-wing as anybody that's

in Washington DC we've got congress people from Wisconsin that fall into that category but the

the good news is and I don't want to overstate this but when we made when we developed the Fair

Maps we knew that we had opportunities to change that behavior a little bit and we did uh you know

we had uh we had a budget that was passed I know there were some things that we didn't get but we

did get quite a few things that I think we're are very helpful for our state uh including an

education including you know whether we our infrastructure is strong and a number of things

like that that we did get and um and we compromised on some things and when we compromise uh they

got some things frankly we got some things that we would never have gotten and so uh this system

works it doesn't work perfectly but uh if you're much better today than I did when it was uh

things were difficult in the legislature. Speaking of Fair Maps another theme that's come out in

the last few days at the IDFS has to deal with how you respond to uh Republican unfairness in terms

of jurymandering. Oh my god. First of all do you know Governor Newsom? I mean I'm sure you've

met him and what do you think about how he what he's trying to do out there in response? I mean

I hate to sound like I haven't decided but I spent a good part of my life saying

Fair Maps are really important we have to get it we have to make sure that we get this in Wisconsin

we're successful and you know we are a purple state whether we like purpleness as a color

it is what it is and uh I don't see any race for governor to be somebody's going to win by

5% or 10% that's just not going to happen but the um um the what was the question again?

Oh my god. This is not the Democratic National Convention. But I was I was headed down

no it's about what Governor Newsom is doing. Oh yes yes yes and what well it's the problem is I

I I find it disgusting that uh Trump calls up the people in Texas and says hey I need five more

seats and then we're put in the the Democrats Democratic governors are put in the position of

doing something equally horrible frankly uh you know that there should be a process that people

follow not like when the president says jump you jump and then so I don't I'm glad I'm not in

that position that Newsom is that he you know he can do it he's got a whole bunch of Democrats

there percentage wise and uh what what happens then is that the people in Iowa do it or some

place else that's red does that the zoo yeah and and so what have we gained we've essentially

decided that uh the process of uh of of setting maps is that uh a thing that is wholly you know

I'm saying it's it's a thing that is frankly disgusting so I I hate to say this but you know

the the president started it I suppose we have to respond to it we could not respond to it even

if we wanted to uh and but uh so it just it frustrates me I see it and I get a little ticked off

about it but I guess if that's the way they have to play the game we have to respond

I know all politicians dislike hypothetical questions yes but if you had control of the

legislature here and you could change a couple of congressional seats to make a difference

no you wouldn't do it no I couldn't I couldn't I spent my whole damn life talking about fair maps

and to say oh I'm four fair maps I want an independent group that that develops those fair maps

except that when I want to get back at somebody that would be that'd be hard for me to do that

would be very very hard for me to do and so the answer is I couldn't do it

that's a very honorable position and one that most of the other gets here have taken the other side

of course I get it I get it but they're not in a position that for the last 20 years this is

we we need an independent group of people you know making them apps and in Wisconsin is above

board I hate to say that but we are yes the tradition here yes I'd like to ask some more personal

questions for a while I already told you I'm 73 when you were a kid scraping the mold off cheese

in Plymouth, Wisconsin did you ever think you'd be did you grew up like Clinton Obama thinking

you'd be president or governor someday I know absolutely what were your dreams

to marry my wife I met her in kindergarten oh you got to be beat there so that's where my focus

was most of the time no I had I had a I have to go and talk about my folks first and my father

was a physician however he not however he he was the doctor the doctor in a tuberculosis sanatorium

in shawaiian county and he he's from he was from Illinois originally he came up and

married my mother and she was a nurse he was a doctor and ran this sanatorium and we lived right

on the grounds of that sanatorium I was I was they had a house there and he walked the work and

that's the way things every county had some sort of tuberculosis sanatorium is that a happy place

to be yes yeah yeah it was good people got better tuberculosis but the the thing that I learned

from him and it paid dividends in my head at least is that he colic company is right there near

it's in shawaiian county and colic company back in the days the workers there got lots of

silicosis because of the sand in the air when they're making toilets and and bathtubs and

things like that so he spent a lot of time on making sure that those workers got the the what they

should get from the state and when somebody is gets gets ill at work and he spent a lot of his

time there and the colic that they FLCIO folks have always stood behind him and I learned that I

learned that you had to if you want to be successful you have to consider the people that are

actually doing the work and making sure that they're healthy and and so that was I was a good learning

experience and so I I never thought of being governor at all I never thought I'd be a politician

at all my parents were both active politically they would you know my mother would invite people

over from the university to have dinner with us and you know of course they were all liberals and

so I kind of came from that background which university oh that's the the look through your

campus at shawaiian actually university Wisconsin shawaiian and and so that was that's why I grew up

and it was just a regular I did scrape mold off a cheese and I was amazed when I became

governor because I visited lots of cheese factories that cheese no longer has mold on it anymore

so that that job would have been eliminated if I had decided to do that so I'm glad I found a

different route to success well let's talk cheese why doesn't it have mold anymore I have no idea

I've asked that question a whole bunch of people and they say I don't know and so I'm guessing it's

the way they make it because I can remember I think I've got molded some of my cheese in the

you should eat it before it gets moldy and I eat a lot of cheese it's just amazing but we I'd

never liked it until I worked in a cheese factory and I would get I'd be on the line there and

and 40 pounds of of cheese if it was a very old cheese it would have at least a half

finish of mold on it you scrape it off throw it in the floor scrape it off throw it in the

what do you use to scrape it that's a cheese scraper that's what they call it I can remember that

but it was it was it was great like I said I met my wife in kindergarten and we went to school

together and we still hang out we go to every every five years we go to a class reunion and the

numbers get smaller folks every time you go but it's all good it's fun Kathy Kathy's on the on a zoom

with a group of her friends from high school I think once a week they do that it's fabulous yeah

it's good it's cool it's Wisconsin how big was plenitha school I don't know 400 kids maybe

yeah it's relatively small a big back then but yeah and when did you decide you wanted to be a

teacher oh that was a long that was after going to college I actually was hoping to follow my

father and be a doctor that didn't quite work out because you didn't like well

I had a three seven five chemistry in in from you to you w and that was too high too low

back then it was really competitive back then so Kathy and I went so long people are going to

when they're winning in a shut out but I got this keep going I got to tell you a story yeah

so I wanted to go to medical school didn't work out and so and we are Kathy and I were married

then we lived out in Middleton and I got got home from school one day and she said what is this

and I was approved to attend the medical school in Grots Austria and I thought what's going on

here and I had forgotten I applied and and so we decided let's do this and we went the Grots

Austria for a year and then plan out I knew no no German before I left and so we could

communicate well on daily stuff but as a learning something as complex of that in German what's

difficult so after a year we left and I decided I want to be a teacher so that's what I did

and what did you want to teach biology biology yeah I did yeah it was it was great and then

after that I kind of teacher were you I was I was a good teacher I thought yeah yeah but I

I'd like to I'd like to follow to some extent the interests of kids yeah it's

software kids especially and and so we did as much as we could outside of that classroom is

inside the classroom because you can learn things about science by looking at in close terms

the lawn in front of the high school and so there's all sorts of things that happen there that are

really important and thoughtful and so we'd spend a lot of time outside the classroom so like

that became an elementary principal and we're going to stay right there for a minute okay

you know I wrote a biography of insulin party and he was a teacher before we became a football coach

yes and what you what what he learned as a teacher was how to convey information so that

every student understood it from the one that it would have the most struggle with it to the

to the smartest kid in the class yeah and that helped him learn how to deal with with people

basically so did you learn things from teaching that you think you carried with you no question no

question but anything I did in education spear prepared me for this you know whether

as an elementary principal high school principal whatever and superintendent and how did you want

to get into administration as opposed to taking away from the kids yeah it it was kind of weird

I I was also the one that I was a union guy and I was

which was which was a great learning experience but the

uh uh the superintendent where I was at thought you know this guy be a administrator than the union

leader and so he you get him inside the tent instead of I guess so anyway so I moved from that

piece to uh to becoming a administrator and it's one I one of my best jobs as being high school

principal I learned so much there from kids I every every new now where I go out to

smokers corner because we love kids out there and smoking and I found out so much either that

or they lied to me a lot but would they stop smoking when you came around oh no no no good for

you know it was smokers corner that's it you smoke uh not with them I did see the teachers lounge

where it was all smoke oh my god it was horrible yeah yeah yeah I'm glad I stopped especially best

thing I did anyway um but it was fun I I learned something new every day there it's it's been

it's been a it's been a blast so um what did you want to become superintendent of schools in the

state and I ran three times is that right three times yeah yeah three times I just I knew I I

knew that if I remained at the local level I would never be able to advocate for kids even I

know I could advocate even better for kids at the at the state level haven't had you know

haven't had success and I love being state superintendent um and I was able to uh make some

changes that I think were helpful and I really advocated for the teacher unions always have always

will and uh and so that's obviously an important thing in the state of Wisconsin

so it was uh it was a good run uh it's just that uh at a point I realized if I could even have a

better um at alley direction to uh making it impact on kids' lives uh I should become governor

of the state that's why I did it going back slightly you ran and lost twice before you won

the superintendent's job is that right yes and that said I'm I'm always interested in how people

overcome failure I mean I don't consider that necessary failure but you know what I mean

yeah um was it hard for you to say well I'm gonna do it again the second time or the third time

I knew I could win yes yeah absolutely uh I was not good I mean I suppose at some point time

if I'm running one in 73 for the first time that would be a problem yeah but um no I I always felt

I could win and uh it was it was difficult because the first couple times it was just I didn't know

what I was doing frankly and uh I ran and didn't have the support you know the internal support

when I did finally win a race for state superintendent I had my stuff together and had good

background and had good people working with me and all that and uh uh that made a huge difference

and as someone who devoted your life to education um act 10 must have been a real

christ uh a point where you decided yeah but how did that affect you I guess it was horrible it was

it was it was you you don't take rights away like that uh and just assume that it's gonna work out

because it doesn't and it didn't and and so I uh that was uh that was horrible we're still

you know and the thing that I'll never forget it was essentially a lie when the people when the

people that did this saying well we're saving all this money and it was because the teachers were

paying more for retirement they were paying more for health care they're paying more for all

sorts of things that they never paid for before so there was no additional money put into schools

it was taken out of the pockets of teachers that was wrong and it's still wrong and so I

that that was a motivating factor we still have a long way to go I think we if we get the right

kind of folks in the legislature we will be able to make that change there's no question

you know the word hero is thrown around a lot for uh military personnel and sports figures

but the real heroes in the community are the teachers and the nurses in my opinion yeah for sure

for sure they impact lives every single day and it's not that you know people that run small

stores downtown they obviously make a make an impact on the community and the environment and the

you know the economic health of a city but at the end of the day nurses and teachers are the

backbone of our state and our country how much I mean along with the 400 year thing and everything

you've tried to do how do you feel about what you've been able to bring back from act 10 to today

yeah we're at a stalemate on act 10 I mean there it you know whatever we can do to raise the

stature of teachers and all that that's that's important but we need to allow people to have be

be in a union if they if they choose to be that way but I think we've made and I'm not changing

subject here but I think we've made some and it was partly partly in my head too yes I want to

make sure kids said the best opportunities possible but it became clearer and clearer to me as

when I was governor that there's a whole subset of things that need to be addressed if kids want

can be successful health care transportation housing you name it and all those things all those

things impact the lives of children and if we want to be successful as a state yes we have to do

right by our teachers yes we have to have good things going on in schools yes they need more money

yes yes yes but they don't have good health care if they don't have transportation systems if

they don't have affordable housing you name it all those things because a teacher has that

kid for five hours a day primarily three quarters of the years sometimes more all those other

things are year round and unless we recognize that there has to be good things as I mentioned before

and money flowing into making sure you know affordable housing tomorrow I'm going to be I think

is tomorrow sometime I think it's tomorrow going to some place in northern Wisconsin that's

sometime during the campaign or during the pandemic they got some money worked with it worked with

the technical college helped build housing for workers affordable housing in northern Wisconsin that's

a win that's a win for kids you taught biology so I guess in the scope zero it would be different but

but you know you've got Oklahoma and Florida now mandating teaching of the 10 commandments and

a false history of the United States where slavery wasn't so bad if you were a teacher in one of

those states what would you do leave I would leave I would leave and just just using this as an

example I mean it was it Louisiana you're putting the commandments on that wall so what if your

kid is going to that school and you're not involved with any religion or you are a Muslim or you are

whatever how how is that moving the needle that's not moving the needle and that I'm sorry that

that bothers me a lot a whole lot and some of the things that I hear now it's it's bothersome

we have to make sure that we keep our public schools public

so how does that relate to school choice pardon me how does out what you're feeling about school

choice in general or specific yeah it's just overall I would have never supported it but we now

we've had it for I think almost 40 years here in Wisconsin so I know it's not going to change

anytime soon and so my goal is to you know make sure that the public schools get as much

resources and and help from the state as possible but I also know that in the near future there

is going to be culture schools in Wisconsin I mean it's once it's once it is in place I don't see

it changing anytime soon Paul Fanden likes to talk about Quintessential Wisconsinite figures

you know from G. Lord Nelson and Herb Cole and he says the most Quintessential is Tony Evers

of Quintessential Quintessential sounds like old

but what is what is your image of Wisconsin what does Wisconsin mean to you that's a great question

I I think it's it's a great place to live a great place to raise kids it's it has people that

are very very conservative and people that are very very liberal and there's a whole bunch of

people in the middle I think I think Wisconsin is is a very special place and we just have to

we have to protect it we have to protect it there's lots of things going on in Washington do you see

that would impact the lives of all Wisconsinites in fact just last I don't even want to see the name

of the bill but you know what bill I'm talking about you know how many people can name a bill

without it being named you know I'm saying it wasn't it wasn't called the

blah blah blah BBB or whatever the hell it is it was some other name but because the press

talks about it in that terms and that's what everybody else I I won't say the words I won't say

the words I'm sorry but we then put it bodily I think what's happening in Washington DC is not

quintessential Wisconsin it is not it is not people in Wisconsin I don't care if you're a small town

big town or you're Republican you're Democrat you're you're very conservative you're not you're

liberal you want to have good schools you want to have good roads you want to have you know good

housing all those things people care about and there's a lot of unanimity around those things

in Wisconsin if we can just get through the politics and I think we are making some progress

the other thing you want is a good governor or a great governor so yeah for sure you got to have

one of those we did what thank you very much I appreciate it

you've been listening to civic media coverage of the cap times 2025 IDFS I would like to thank

Luke Mathers Chris Casper Dominically Parker Olson and Pat Critello for making this broadcast

I'm Aaron Zommers and we now return you to your regularly scheduled civic media programming

you