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Two more brief notes before getting started. Our host the University of Wisconsin
Madison is committed to freedom of speech and freedom of expression as a central part of the
education mission. It's our expectation that you allow the speakers' presentation to occur
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ask you to silence phones and refrain from flash photography. Now on to the program.
We are thrilled tonight to have as our moderator the great Peter Baker Chief White House
correspondent for the New York Times. Peter appeared last night at our journalism fundraiser with
his wife and fellow journalist Susan Glasser of the New Yorker and a great conversation
moderated by David Marinus and the event was superb and Peter agreed to stick around to moderate
this conversation for that we are deeply appreciative. I told him when I read the print front
page in the New York Times I always kind of seek out his byline for some of the most area-dite
political reporting you'll find anywhere. His wife Susan joked that I must be a journalist.
His participation makes the night even more special. It was exactly a year ago on this stage
that we hosted Adam Kinzinger who talked about his, he has a great night, talked about
he talked about his journey as a conservative Republican congressman who's conscious forced him
to put aside ideology and devote himself to the defeat of Trump and Trumpism. Tonight we welcome
another American hero woman with unparalleled political courage and selflessness. I spoke to
Wisconsin Democratic Chairman Ben Wickler today who would be here tonight except as all of you know
for the Harris visit that we did not know about and so we would have had all the Democratic leaders
in the state here but that wasn't possible but he said please Paul publicly thank her for her
patriotism and I thought that was pretty cool. In a fundraising letter for Representative
Cheney's Pat called our great task she writes it's time for all of us to put love of country ahead
of partisanship to stand together for our values and our freedoms in the face of a threat we've
never faced before. With that please welcome Liz Cheney and Peter Baker to our stage.
You're listening to the cap times idea fast in Madison featuring Liz Cheney on civic media.
All right I'm feeling bad for the other event in town obviously nobody must have showed up there.
Thank you guys for coming. Well thank you guys for showing up and thank you for
for that very warm welcome for Congresswoman Cheney. We're going to have a fun time tonight.
As Paul just mentioned she is of course a Madison native so she's coming home which is a great
thing. No badgers and I want to I want to read you a little of a letter that was sent to Liz Cheney
on August the first 1966. I think you were four days old is that right? That sounds right yeah.
All right from Governor Warren Knowles I think this is probably your very first communication with
elected official and he wrote dear Elizabeth Lynn I want to personally welcome you to the state of
Wisconsin. Your arrival has been long awaited and I joined with your mother and dad in their
enthusiasm. I can hardly wait to meet you and see whether you are as pretty and sweet as your mother
and as smart and personal as your dad. It was 1966. I would actually love to hear their
reflections on that but Governor Knowles obviously is not with us anymore but if I could be so
presumptuous I'm sure Wisconsin welcomes you back. Thank you Liz for being here. Thank you thank you.
It's wonderful to be back and it's interesting actually because when when I was born my mom and
dad were students at the University of Wisconsin and my mother actually was in the PhD program
and she got her PhD. My father was in the PhD program and he never got his PhD so proving that
Governor Knowles I think your father is pretty and sweet. He did okay yeah he did okay.
Well I feel like a third wheel here because two weeks ago with our friend Peter Fever at Duke you
made some news and then a few days later with our friend Mark Liebovich in Texas you made some
news and I you know of course everybody knows what the news was right that she announced she's
going to vote for Kamala Harris and then she announced on behalf of her father he was going to
vote for Kamala Harris and so you haven't left me with a lot so I guess I'm going to ask
who's your mom voting for? Well I think you can guess but I actually have not checked with her
this afternoon if she feels all right with me making that announcement today and as we were just
discussing Lynn Cheney is actually really the tough one in the family so I think I should check
with her before I publicly don't get in trouble I don't want to get you in trouble I don't want to
get in trouble here but it won't be surprising well talk a little bit though for a minute you have
you have made this announcement in the last couple weeks you cast your first vote I think 40 years
ago 1984 for a Republican Ronald Reagan and I've never voted for a Democrat for president so this
is an extraordinary thing to do I don't think people underestimate what it means for a lifelong
Republican to make this kind of a decision that you've made but what do you think about other
Republicans who haven't joined you yet I think of President Bush who was your father's partner
for eight years we know he doesn't like or doesn't think much of President Trump and yet hasn't
said anything publicly what about Mitt Romney and you know Wisconsinite Paul Ryan there are a lot
of Republicans whose voices are important do you think they will speak out should speak out have
you ever spoken to them about why they don't well I think that I would I would put people I
suppose in in different categories and I I don't want to criticize the people that you've
mentioned all of whom you know have been very clear about their views with respect to the
former president I do think it's important if you look at President Bush he clearly endorsed
the Republican nominee in 2008 clearly did that in 2012 and has never endorsed Donald Trump and
I think that that says something you know my decision to not just work to make sure that we defeat
Donald Trump but as part of that to announce that I was going to vote for Vice President Harris
was was something I thought about very deeply and I thought about it from the perspective
of doing everything we possibly can to make sure that we defeat former President Trump and
particularly in my view in swing states like Wisconsin I don't think it's enough if you're voting
in one of those states to say well I'm just going to write in a conservative Republican I'm going
to write in somebody that I'd like to see in office I think this is going to be an incredibly
potentially incredibly close race I hope it's not but it could be and and so it really really
matters if you really believe as I do that Donald Trump is too dangerous ever again to be near the
Oval Office then I think that it's incumbent upon us to go the extra step and actually cast a vote
for Vice President Harris. I'm curious what you think of people who worked
in the Trump administration as well because there are people like John Kelly and Jim Mattis and
Rex Tillerson and others who have made clear what as you say that they didn't think much of President
Trump they didn't think he was fit for office they themselves of course have not come out in
this election season as you have do you think that they would or should or would you call them
or talk to them about that because I think that one of the questions a lot of Republicans might have
they may not know what it was like to actually be in that White House and these are people who can
tell them. Yeah look I think first of all you've had an unprecedented number of officials who
served for in the Trump administration who have said they will never support him again and I think
we've become so numb to kind of the the unprecedented nature and the chaotic and sometimes violent
nature of our politics now that that it it's really important to stop and think about what that
means when those who were working most closely with the former president refused to support him
that's something that that everyone needs to stop and think about. I think that you know
I certainly hope that you will see additional and I would expect you will see additional
of the people who served in those administration in his administration come out and say publicly
what they've seen some of them certainly have and I think that you know in the case of some of the
people that you mentioned for example you know General Kelly has been absolutely clear in
confirming on the record what he observed and Donald Trump's lack of fitness for office
and you've heard similar things from some of the other people so look I do think it's important
I think one of the things that I've certainly seen around the country in the aftermath of
January 6th in particular was you know when Republican leaders think that they can sort of keep
their head down or that someone else is going to take care of the problem then I think that can
lead voters to think it's not as serious as it is and so when you have Republican elected officials
who in private say exactly what you know what we all know to be the case those elected officials
I think have a have a duty have a responsibility to speak out I think at the at the
at the end of the day because it's a secret ballot I think that people will be surprised at how
many Republicans when they go in and actually have to face just their own conscience we'll do
the right thing and we'll not vote for President Trump. We're working to make a little news here
and in Texas you went beyond the presidential race and talked about Colin Alroot who's running
for Senate against Ted Cruz since we're here at your home state I wonder if you've any thoughts
about Congressman Derek Menorden who was actually at the Capitol on January 6th 2021 he says
he didn't go inside and do you have any feelings about that race? Yeah look I think that any time
that we have elected officials who are election deniers who have made clear that they'll only
accept the results of an election if they like the outcome you know I think that those are
certainly not people who would earn my vote and you know I think that a big part of what we have
to do as a country and especially in states like Wisconsin is is remember and reflect on how important
these offices are and so you can't just sort of reflexively think especially now well I'm going
to vote for the Republican because I'm a Republican I think you really do have to think through
you know who's going to be the serious person who is going to operate in good faith and and
fulfill their obligations so I'm not I'm not making endorsement announcements I'm sorry Peter but
I wouldn't I wouldn't vote for Van Orden okay that's something
and because my friends in the Wisconsin press we've met if I didn't ask how about Eric Hope
that who's running for Senate against Tammy Baldwin I could ask no okay all right fair enough
and and and let me you know I think it's it's when you look at the House of Representatives and
those the races and how close that margin is and the same is true in the Senate in terms of how
close it is and and you look at the responsibility of the House and the Senate in particular
on January 6th 2025 you know the the Republicans and and I say this makes me very sad that this
is the case but but the Republicans have shown that they will not certify the results if Donald
Trump isn't the victor and so I I think that it's really important that Mike Johnson not be the
speaker of the House on January 6th 2025
I think you and I are basically the same age I voted for the first time in ITA 4 and and I
did you vote for Reagan I'm not saying who I voted for and I actually and I
that's this and I and I don't vote anymore actually I haven't voted in in since 1990 when I
started covering the White House in 1996 I decided I was going to stop voting just for myself to
try to be is is I know I know I know we can talk about that later what state do you vote in well
I mean this is a Columbia so doesn't make a difference anyway okay I mean Trump got 4% in the
district of Columbia and and if you know my vote wouldn't make a difference if I was for him or
against him but in any case my point all right I walked into that one we can talk about that later
this is about listening but I want to talk about Republicanism because the Republicans I covered
as a young reporter all the way through I covered your father I covered President Bush I wrote a
book about them I covered you know I wrote about President Bush 41 and another book and James Baker
his partner Mitt Romney John McCain covered them knew them tell me about the Republican party
today we've got the Lauren Boberts and Marjorie Taylor Green and now we have Mark Robinson who calls
himself a black Nazi and advocates the return of slavery and I and on a pornographic website and
we can go on to even more graphic details that we don't need to so how is it that that has happened
what is why has the Republican Party embraced or at least tolerated people who would have never
gotten the front door 10 years ago 12 years ago yeah you know it happened it happened very quickly
you know if you think about in probably January 2019 maybe it was around the end of 2018
beginning of 2019 there was a Republican member of the House from Iowa named Steve King who made
comments you know that that indicated some level of support for apparently white nationalism and
as soon as he did that as soon as the news broke those of us I was in Republican leadership at the
time immediately you know Steve King was stripped of his committee assignments immediately and if you
if you just look at the difference between the way you know that was Kevin McCarthy and Steve
Scalia and I were the top three officials at that point the way we dealt with Steve King and then
you just fast forward to you know to 2020 2021 and the extent to which voices in the party
you know people like Marjorie Taylor Greene who you know among other things talks about Jewish
space lasers and and it's a you know at the meeting of the Republican conference a few weeks after
January 6th when I was speaking to the conference you know I talked about the symbols that that the
mob carried into the Capitol and of course you know they were there in Trump's name and they
carried his flags and and they used those flags to beat police officers and they had other weapons
with them but they also had symbols of anti-Semitism they had symbols of racism and bigotry and and
you know what I was saying to my colleagues at the time was we have to choose you know we're going
to be the party that that glorifies that or are we going to be the party of Lincoln and and we
have to reject those things and what you have seen is the party has chosen not to reject those
things and when you have you know just in the last few weeks Tucker Carlson interviewing someone
that that he he calls I think one of the most important historians of World War II and this
individual on Tucker's platform said that Winston Churchill was the greatest villain of World War
II and he said that Hitler didn't really want to fight and and this this kind of you know anti-Semitism
that Tucker promoted it's you know really Nazi propaganda then JD Vance who you know after this
had happened obviously nobody nobody in a in a leadership role should be giving interviews to
Tucker but they all still are JD Vance did an interview with Tucker I think two days after he
platformed this guy spreading Nazi propaganda and so that's that's really partly what's what's
happened to the party and then you know look at it's I think one of the great untold stories of
this period of our history will be of the collaborators the people who are elected who know better
who absolutely know Donald Trump's dangerous they absolutely know
know what he believes in and stands for as him that he's willing to tolerate you know some of
the worst kinds of of bigotry and that he doesn't believe in the Constitution but yet they are
going along anyway if this always always we're always curious about this if you took a secret ballot
of these elected republicans in congress like how many of them do you think really actually genuinely
agree with you but just won't say so or afraid to say so or for whatever reason don't speak out
well I think the vast majority I mean you know there are very few elected officials who actually
believe what Trump is saying but there's a you know sort of once you've accepted
you know once you've told yourself I'm I'm going to accept just as one last offense just as one
last thing then it becomes very difficult to come back from that because you know very quickly you
accept more and more and more of it and and I think that you know those are the people who
you know have created a situation where that you know Trump is obviously the taken over the
Republican Party and and the party itself really has rejected the Constitution in in the name
of supporting Trump and then I think you know those those people will bear tremendous
responsibility and blame when history looks back at this time well okay as we said early obviously
across town right now there's another event that's not as interesting as this one you haven't
appeared with Vice President Harris even though you've endorsed her have you spoken with her is
there any thinking about whether you might go to a rally like that I have spoken to Vice President
Harris and I'm I'm sorry Peter I'm not gonna I'm not gonna yeah but look I'm gonna do everything
everything that I can because I think it's so important so stay tuned
okay
without giving anything away that you don't want to give away does she call you did you call her
come on reporter
no listen we we had a good a very good discussion and I really I believe that that she knows
this this coalition that's coming together to support her is such a broad one
and such an unusual one I mean I'll I'll admit this time I'm gonna tell you has a number of
admissions in it one is that I was watching MSNBC yesterday and I couldn't resist I took a picture
of the the chiron at the bottom because it said Dick Cheney and Taylor Swift support Kamala Harris
which which one is more surprised
but but in all seriousness I mean this coalition that is backing Vice President Harris
is is unique certainly in modern political history and and I think it it really goes to and
this is the point you know I she understands that she has to be a president for all Americans this
isn't you know sort of all of these people coming together saying we believe a hundred percent in
the policies um of the Democratic Party because that's not the case but I think there are a lot
more places we agree than not and there's something far more important in this race than
policy differences
I mean people people should remember a lot of your a lot of your fellow Republicans who have
broken with Trump and moved they actually moved on their philosophy in some cases actually some
of them become much more liberal but you're still a conservative right you still call yourself a
conservative you call yourself Republican I'm a conservative um and and I think it's important
to point out that you know and I because I have this discussion sometimes with um Republicans who
will suggest that they're backing Trump because uh Trump is a conservative and he's not um and
you know there was an analysis I think it was in the Wall Street Journal actually in the last
couple of days about whose economic policy would be better for the country this is a Wall Street
Journal and on balance they said Kamala Harris's um you know when you look at Donald Trump now I
have disagreements with you know her tax policy and a number of other things but
people need to focus on Donald Trump's tariff policy and the thing that that I think hasn't
gotten enough attention about the tariffs is obviously the extent to which we know how damaging
tariffs will be for every single American the kind of tariffs that he's talking about the extent
to which they they could crater our markets and choke off free trade he doesn't need Congress
to do that you know President of the United States through executive action can impose the kind
of really damaging tariffs he's talking about not to mention like every single day he's tossing out
some new free thing he says he's you know I don't know what the latest one is but um so on on
economic policy I think there's real question about um what he's proposing and on national security
policy uh he's completely abandoned the notion that America has to lead the world and and he's
invited Putin to invade our NATO allies I mean that that is not um anything consistent with any kind
of conservative national security policy that that I've ever been aware of what did you what did
you think of the debate last week between the two of them um I I thought that um that the vice
president um did a tremendous job and I I think about this sometimes as um you know I try to put
myself in the position of somebody who who isn't swimming in the politics of it the way that we do
and you know I think if you just were watching that debate as somebody who's thinking all right
you know who do I want to entrust with the future of the country who do I trust um who's the
responsible adult like you know there was no there was no contest thank you
people people will remember that debate as the they're reading the dogs they're in the cats of
debate um we talked a lot this year obviously about age and politics we talked a lot about
president Biden's age and capacity and obviously it was a factor in Democrats asking him to step
down and him agreeing to do it what do you think about Donald Trump's age and capacity do you notice
a difference watching that debate watching his rallies if you do that um do you see a different
Donald Trump than he has been is he is there something there that we should be thinking about
well look I mean he's he's he's clearly unstable um I think he obviously is incredibly desperate um
and and and depraved and I think if you if you if you if you look at um at the dogs and the cats
lie I mean it really is you know um apparently JD Vance sort of launched this attack and they checked
with the local government in Springfield Ohio and they were told it's it's not true
uh and they kept saying it anyway and and what they're saying is um you know creating
the real animosity and and and and bigoted feelings towards the Haitian community in Springfield
and I I have thought um as I've watched them do this that it's very much like you know the lie
about the election it doesn't matter that it isn't true it's just and and JD Vance even said it
he said yeah well if I have to create something I will so we really like you know need to understand
the use of of lying and um the danger of that in in what they're doing and what and what they're
willing to do uh as we as we think about November 5th well you ask you mentioned what they're
willing to do not that long ago the former president reposted a tweet or a post whatever it was
suggesting that you had committed treason and that you should be put on trial and a military
tried you know um putting aside the legal constitutional you know uh issues there um how do you
react to that and and do you worry for your own safety for your own uh you know for your
your family if he wins the election well you know when I saw that and I think I responded to it
saying you know look this is just the latest episode the latest example Donald um that that shows
the American people that you're not fit to be president and um and so I I don't think about it from
a a personal perspective as much as I do from the perspective of trying to make sure that the
voters understand what he's doing and what he would do and and this you know look he tried it
before you know um there's a there's a there's a new show on um I can't remember which streaming
service it is but it's it's called stopping the steal I think it just came out in the last
couple days it's it's worth watching because it reminds you again of everything that he did to try
to overturn the election and seize power and overturn the election means throw out the votes
of millions of Americans you know throw out the votes of Wisconsinites who decided that you know
Joe Biden should uh prevail that Joe Biden won this state he wanted to throw out your votes
and and he will do it again um and he's totally untethered to the law um if you think about
the fact that our court system uh which sometimes people say well the courts will constrain Trump
the the courts they they can't enforce their own decisions and so if a president is unwilling
to enforce the rulings of the courts then we aren't a nation of laws and this most recent
supreme court decision on immunity like you know no matter what the court seems to have thought
they were doing um what what they have done is create a situation where Donald Trump
were he to be in office again would believe that he could do anything and that he would be
absolutely immune from any kind of accountability and and the danger to that you just have to listen
to the guy I mean like I I keep trying to find ways to say to people you know like if you wouldn't
hire the guy like if you you know wouldn't let him watch your children then you know
he probably shouldn't be your choice for president like that's you know
he um did did did we miss an opportunity we collectively in in Washington or this country
to fix some of the holes in the system that his tenure reveal you talked I think recently
about the electoral count act so obviously we did the Congress did change some things about how
the electoral college votes are counted in try to in order to try to avoid any confusion and
and minimize the disruption of last time but we didn't there's nothing that was done by Congress
anybody else on the justice department to make it independent of political uh prosecutions right
and there wasn't anything done on the insurrection act to make clear that it's not meant to put
troops in the streets because you don't like the people who are protesting or something like that
do we after watergate there was at least a period of reform some of the forms didn't work
and they've kind of gone away but um there hasn't really been that same kind of reaction by the system
to uh adjust and uh where does that leave us yeah I think um first of all with respect to the
electoral count act I I think it's it's really important to make clear um the what he did was
illegal under the previous act um and unconstitutional and it it would be illegal unconstitutional under
the reformed act some of the things that we did was increase for example the numbers of members
required for an objection to be heard um but I do think that uh ultimately as a nation
the reality is that we we could put sort of all of the obstacles all of the road blocks
in place that that you could think of all of the guardrails but if you elect somebody who doesn't
care and someone who has shown us all he's shown us all because he did it before if you if you
elect that person it doesn't matter how many guardrails you have in place because they will blow
through them and and I think this is an important point you know again the friends of mine who are
Republicans who are struggling with this sort of or try to tell themselves it'll be fine you know if
he's reelected we'll be able to to control him you know that that is um that is a really irresponsible
fantasy and uh you just look at um listening to the cat times idea fest in Madison featuring
Liz Cheney on civic media and the house that the Republicans have done and have allowed him to do
mean you know he didn't want the bipartisan border legislation so Republicans rejected it even
though they had negotiated it um and you see that again and again and if you think yourself
you know is Mike Johnson or Tom Cotton or Marco Rubio or those guys are going to stand up
to Donald Trump of course not um so you know it really matters character really matters and the
people that we we put in these offices especially the presidency um if you elect someone who
um isn't going to defend the Constitution then the survival of the Republic is at risk and
and that's where we are in this election to work for remembering that um you mentioned JD
Vance JD Vance said specifically that they should adopt the Andrew Jackson approach to the Supreme
Court which is to say the Supreme Court is made it's really now let it enforce it yeah in other words
we won't listen to the Supreme Court if it says something we don't agree with yeah well and I think
you know Mike Pence um deserves tremendous gratitude for not succumbing to the pressure
of Donald Trump on January 6th 2021 and you know JD Vance was clearly picked and he said you know
as much that that he would reject the electoral votes um you know he you know he talked about well
I would just tell the states they needed to look at it again and you know there's no constitutional
authority for the vice president to say you know I don't like this outcome so try again states um
but but he specifically was chosen by Donald Trump because he will do that and I think that that
also needs to guide people's decisions about how they vote now the January 6th committee on which you
revised chair was Wiley Hale the investigation added an awful lot I think to the record of that
event not just on January 6th but importantly on the days and weeks and months really
leading up to it because I think that people miss a lot of people miss the idea that it wasn't
just a one-off day that this was building and building through the pressure on the justice
department and the pressure on state officials a pressure on the vice president um and then he
had signaled as even before the election people forget that too he told us before the election
if I lose it will be because it was rigged which of course is now what he's saying again
looking back on the January 6th committee um is there something you didn't do that you would have
liked to have done is there anything you would have done differently now that you've had some
time to reflect on it um you know I think uh uh there's nothing that I can that I can point to
that I would say you know uh I wish we'd done that differently you know obviously I wish I'd never
supported Donald Trump um that sort of outside the bounds of the the committee's work but
but that's my my regret um when I think about the work the committee did I I'm incredibly proud of
what we did and um it you know it was uh totally unprecedented um to and I really did find myself
again through this period of the first six months or so of 2021 just kind of stunned by my
Republican colleagues because I you know at the at this point uh you know after every major
sort of crisis in our nation's history you know the the notion of forming some sort of bipartisan
commission to make recommendations is is something that we've done we did it after watergate did
it after Pearl Harbor after 9-11 and and so that was the model that initially we followed um
and initially Kevin McCarthy supported uh and actually you know told yeah right before he didn't
before they didn't I mean and that's and you know how do you not investigate an attack on the
Congress how I don't know how you justify not investigating it but but they killed the idea of
an outside bipartisan commission and so the select committee was the only way we had to actually
do the investigation and um yeah you know it was really important we felt um to make sure first
of all that the story of what had happened you know as we did the investigation and interviewed
Republican witnesses again and again and again it was clear this story has to be told by those
Republicans you know this isn't Donald Trump's political opponents saying he refused to tell the
mob to leave saying he didn't actually want to do anything those are the people inside the White
House and that's why frankly he's working so hard to suppress the evidence in his January 6
criminal trial because he doesn't want the American people to hear the testimony that those
people gave to the grand jury you know the select committee developed a significant amount of
evidence but but the special counsel has developed even more and Donald Trump has everything that
that we all did and he knows what these people said in their grand jury testimony he doesn't want
the American people to know it um but but again you know just the extent to which people should
remember this wasn't wasn't his political opponent saying these things it was the people and
his family working most closely with him yeah no i think that's important to remember um the uh
uh you mentioned regretting supporting him talk about your own journey a little bit because you
did endorse them in 2016 and he'd endorse them in 2020 and you voted against the first impeachment
and so forth you were more outspoken from time to time than most your colleagues even then when he
said things that were you felt outrageous when he said we shouldn't have and have the election in
2024 because of COVID and so forth you did speak out but um we interviewed Adam Kinsinger once for
our book on Trump called the divider uh available all bookstores to you uh it's a great book and he uh
he said something really interesting to us which i i was fascinated we asked him okay why did you
vote against the first impeachment he said look i was open to voting for it but i just was looking
for a reason not to i was easier for me to stay with my party and so i latched on to the criticism
of the democrats and how they handled it and they didn't handle it well and they should have done
this or that i had a better inquiry and i let that be my excuse and effect he's saying i'm not
quoting him directly but something like that for sticking with my party and i regret it um i thought
there was a fascinating insight into the the psychology of politics right because we are in this
tribal moment it's us versus them and sticking with us is the easier course right and i wonder if
you can talk a little bit about that yeah i mean i am i i have a different view about the first
impeachment than than um than what you mentioned but um i have huge respect obviously you's dear
friend of mine for Adam um but the first impeachment uh i think that that one of the real problems
and i looked at this from the perspective of this is a uh very serious and grave constitutional
obligation that we have as members of the house to decide to vote to impeach and because the democrats
who were in the majority on the committee didn't pursue testimony of some of the key people
um i felt that they hadn't made the case now if they had gotten that testimony and put it on
things may well have been different but it also very much guided me as we worked on the select committee
um because i knew you know there there's this there was this debate that went on where some people
were saying well um you know you shouldn't have an aggressive litigation strategy as part of the
select committee's work because if you lose then you know that will have an impact on the institution
of the house and and my view throughout was nothing has a greater impact on the institution of the
house than failing to fully investigate this attack on the house and um so i believe it was very
important for us to to uh to pursue to issue subpoenas to pursue those subpoenas aggressively
in litigation um pursue enforcement of those subpoenas and um and to her great credit um speaker
Pelosi you know first of all she appointed me to the committee which you know i'm sure wasn't
easy for her in some respects um but when she was thinking about appointing me one of her staff
members handed her a piece of paper that said the top 10 worst things Liz Cheney has ever said
about Nancy Pelosi um and amazing they narrowed it down i mean you know it's like wow
i'm glad they stopped at 10 but um but she you know look she took the piece of paper she looks at it
and she said why are you bothering me with things that don't matter and handed it back to the staffer
and so um so she had appointed me to the committee and every single time i went to her with any sort
of issue uh or a question or request um she backed me up every time and and i think that's um
it's really important so you know the extent to which uh i suppose it's kind of a different issue
kind of the and related the extent to which we're in you know opposing camps or something
you know that that guides how people operate in politics it certainly guides it in a way
that it shouldn't and and i do think people get on autopilot um absolutely you know if you're in
congress uh if you're a republican in congress you know and the democrats proposed legislation
the tendency is okay well what are the worst things we can say about that legislation
and the same the other way around and and i think you know i certainly hope that having been
through what we've been through we we can all say wait a minute like we we need to recognize
we'll have differences but stop the reflexive partisan attacks because it doesn't the
it's not good for the country i i was i was very struck on January 6th 2022 when you and your
father showed up on the house floor to commemorate the one year anniversary of the attack the only
republicans who were there and Nancy Pelosi i think hugged your father right and i have to say i
i covered those days and if you had told Nancy Pelosi of 2006 that she would be hugging Dick
Cheney and vice versa i think heads would have exploded now um the the person that we ran into as
soon as we walked onto the house floor that day was actually Adam Schiff um which is the same kind
of you know you kind of worlds worlds colliding but but that day you know my dad and i sat down in
the the front row on the republican side of the aisle as the moment of silence and the
commemoration began and and my dad he had not been back on the house floor since January 6th
we since before January 6th but he he sort of looked behind us and he saw all of the empty seats
and he he turned back to me and he said you know it's it's one thing to hear about and to read about
what's happened to our party but the fact that there's no other republicans none here um was really
really just kind of a shocking thing to actually see it i think firsthand yeah i mean you said to
Peter fever at Duke you said you're looking forward to the day when you can be booed by liberals again
is it uh is it uh which by which you mean of course that we we back to a normal politics where we
could have fights about issues and not not this kind of moment but is it is it uncomfortable
the i mean you you for this relationship with Nancy Pelosi that seems unlikely i mean does it feel
uncomfortable for you as a conservative lifelong republican that you're being embraced by democrats
and that so many of your own party um aren't willing to uh well
what it what it it feels to me um you know like we've had this this shift in our politics
but but as a conservative um there's never been any question for me about you know you have to
take the step that is defense of the constitution like that the most important thing is defense of
the constitution and so if that means you know so yes i mean it's it is obviously a little
discombobulating sometimes um but but i think there's a really important lesson too and um and i
think that that that lesson is we have to listen to each other and it goes back to the reflexive
partisanship you know we we have to um we have to conduct ourselves and and members of congress
should be incentivized you know let's sit down and talk across the aisle and learn from each other
and you know maybe you'll convince me or maybe i'll convince you but um but but the reflexive
partisanship is you know we have to get away from it and um but and i also i'm sure you know
the democratic members of the select committee thought it was just as weird to be sitting there with me
so it's like you you are in this position where you have uh made this extraordinary um uh break
with your parties nominee and you're supporting the party the nominee of the other party i wonder
how far it goes beyond trump trump is this in your view as you've described him a unique threat uh to
the constitution would it apply if it had been niki hailey or ronda santer's or some other
republican who ran but didn't win if they had won the nomination would you still be here uh
supporting the democratic nominee i am look i i certainly have my issues uh with the people you
mentioned but but i i don't believe that they uh would pose the threat that Donald trump poses i
mean it's only Donald trump now it's only Donald trump who has said you can terminate the
constitution and who has actually tried to do so um but i would say that there are others in the
party um who you know um can't be trusted with power and uh those are the people that we've
talked about who are election deniers so trump presents a really good you know a uniquely grave
threat to the republic in this election cycle and that's why he has to be beaten at the polls
and i think that's that's very important to be clear that that's that's the responses to make
sure that he's defeated at the polls um but but as a as a country and as a people um i do think
we have to hold elected officials to account if they have been willing to go along with what he's
done if they perpetuated the big lie um and and so i i think once we get past this election
hopefully you know we will we will beat him um but then i do think that there's there's got to
be an effort i it's hard for me to see how the republican party survives because it's been
it's been so corrupted but but you know we need two strong parties in this country and so we'll
have to figure out how we move forward okay can i just clarify um so you're saying that while you
have differences with niki hailey and ronda san says it would not necessarily meant that you
would have broken with them you might have been able to support them as a nominee had they gone
for it because they're not they don't you don't believe they would they would do what trump did
i mean look at it's um i i don't believe that we have had um i i think the donald trump presents a
particularly um or particularly unique danger okay now let me ask you about that phrase you just
said a particularly unique danger because of course we've seen two assassination attempts now in
the last two months against uh former president trump he says that phrases like that have instigated
the violence and of course at the same time he says in the very same interview that's the
democrats are trying to destroy the country and their enemies within so it's it's we can talk
about his rhetoric where is that line as far as your concern where is the line on political rhetoric
beyond which we don't want to go because there is this volatile moment out there where there are
clearly people who are unhinged or or taking things seriously we don't know the motivations of either
two people really is we can guess on the last one maybe more than the first one um but how do you
feel about this moment because we are in a period where political violence seems to be more
relevant in our lives and where is it responsibly the elected official or former elected official
in terms of our rhetoric yeah look i think um it's incumbent on all of us to be clear that violence
has no place in our politics um but i think what donald trump is doing is getting it exactly
backwards uh and um trying to prevent people from being very clear about the threat that he poses uh
you know there's only one candidate in this race there's only one american president in history
who mobilized a mob that he knew was armed and sent them to attack the capital and
you know again the response to that has to be to defeat him at the ballot box in november um and
and i think that um that it's really important to speak the truth about what he did and the truth
about what he did is what makes him so dangerous if he were to be elected again and and i think that
you know if if you have any question about um about what he did just go back and look at
what he did during the 187 minutes i mean that that is um the story of watching the mob assault
the capital in his name brutally beat police officers in his name um and have family members
and his most senior supporters and advisors pleading with him to to say something to tell the
mob to go home and that he wouldn't do it and he watched it on television he was sitting in his
dining room watching it on television and you know just if you go back and look at the testimony
that we took in the select committee you know we know for example that he was handed a note
while he was watching it on television and the note said a civilian had been shot at the
entrance to the chamber of the House of Representatives and he still wouldn't tell the mob to go home
and we also know that when he tweeted at 224 that Mike Pence didn't have the courage in
Trump's words to do what Trump wanted him to do at about 10 minutes after that tweet went out
uh the mob the the the crowd surged forward both inside the capital and on the west front
and the metropolitan police line that had been holding the armed mob back broke at that point
it was the first time in the the history of the metropolitan police department um that one of
their lines broke um in that fashion he knew what he was doing he didn't want the mob to stop
because they were accomplishing his purposes and you just have to again look at the testimony of the
people who were there so i think it's really important for people to speak the truth about
that level of of human depravity um so that we don't elect them again the um
we're running out of time here i don't want to uh um leave this unfinished that it raised the
question though of if he is beaten what does it mean for the future of the republican party
that has been written that he has to that that the democrats have to win by such a large
margin not just to keep there from being any doubt about his defeat but also to convince the
party to purge itself of trump can the party purge itself of trump is that something that can happen
you know i think um the way that i i think about it and this is based upon
spending a lot of my time traveling around the country and talking to people um
republicans and democrats and independents um that we need our political system to reflect
the goodness of the american people and that you know the i think the majority i don't have any
question that the majority of americans don't want somebody like donald trump to be the president
the majority of americans really would like to have a president that their kids can look up to
um they really would like a president they know is going to defend the peaceful transfer of power
and and i think that that's where we have to start i don't you know whether it's organizing a new party
look it's hard for me to see how the republican party given what it has done can make the argument
convincingly or credibly that people ought to be voting for republican candidates until it really
recognizes what it's done and and so i think you know making sure that on an individual basis
we're casting votes for serious responsible people that we're encouraging people to get involved
and run um there is certainly going to be a big shift i think in how our politics work uh i don't
know exactly what that will look like i don't think it will just simply be well the republican party
is going to put up a new you know slate of candidates and and right off to the races i think far too
much has happened it's too damaging well so the republican party was actually born out of the
ashes of a failed party are you thinking then there has to be a new party here that but you're
you're just guessing just now right i mean it it may well be because um again you know so much of
the republican party today um has allowed itself to become a tool for for this really unstable man
and so um it certainly has moved away from standing for anything of substance anything
of policy and and i i think you know we're going to have to have some entity that actually
you know can be making the case for um the kinds of conservative causes that i believe in in
terms of a strong national defense and and limited government and low taxes the things that
that have represented the republican party before trump last question i think people when i
travel not as much as you do i find that they're hungry for optimism they're hungry for good news
right it's been a tough number of years for a lot of americans for a lot of reasons economics
their own economics obviously uh as well as politics and and so forth what's what makes you
optimistic what do you in your travels what are you learning or what do you see what makes you
feel um positive about where things are going given how dark the conversation often is yeah look i
am i feel very optimistic about um uh the extent to which people are mobilized and motivated and
understand how important it is to get out on november 5th and starting now in a number of states um
and and i feel very optimistic about um uh the option that we have very optimistic about the
fact that we actually you know can beat Donald trump in this election cycle and if you think about
i mean we all have been through um you know period of time where people sort of say i don't i don't
want anything to do with politics if that's what politics looks like but you know it's happened in
a you know what is it about an eight year period i suppose um we can fix it and and the fact that we
live in a republic that we live in a country where we get to do that where we have the chance to do
it where we can show the whole world who we are and and that we actually believe in our democracy
and in optimism and hope you know it feels to me like that's the path that we're headed down um and
i think then we can we can rebuild and build something better out of this well on that note thank
you very much there's jane for taking the time
welcome home to Madison
you
