State Sen. Melissa Agard on marijuana legalization in Wisconsin

Greetings and welcome to the Recombobulation Area.

My name is Dan Schaeffer, thank you for joining us.

The issue of marijuana legalization has come into focus in Wisconsin as a plate, as many

of our neighboring states have been implementing new recreational legalization policies.

Democrats in Wisconsin have repeatedly proposed legalization efforts, only for them to stall

in the Republican-controlled Wisconsin State Legislature.

One of those Democrats who has championed this issue for years is State Senator Melissa

Agard of Madison.

I interviewed her about the issue for a podcast here at the Recombobulation Area.

I'm also working on a story on marijuana legalization in Wisconsin that will soon publish

in partnership with my friends over at Milwaukee Record.

But right now there's some news happening on this issue.

Investigations in the legislature are reportedly planning to propose a new medical marijuana

bill.

Some of what Senator Agard discussed in this podcast is now a bit more timely, so we've

decided to post it early today.

We hope you enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you for listening.

I'm excited to be here.

So you have probably been the legislature's foremost advocate for marijuana legalization for

quite some time now.

What did you learn from that experience?

Well, first of all, I know that being able to get out across Wisconsin and meet people

where they are at is so very, very important and having introduced the spill in Wisconsin

to legalize cannabis for responsible adult usage for over a decade and not being able to

have a public hearing in the Capitol building has been really frustrating despite the fact

that we know nearly seven out of 10 folks in Wisconsin support responsible adult use policy.

And we are literally an island of prohibition with Minnesota, most recently legalizing of

our Midwestern neighbors, most recently legalizing cannabis and Ohio becoming the 24th state

in the nation.

Now, the majority of adults in the United States live in states that have legalized cannabis

for responsible adult policy.

What I saw, regardless of if I was in a big city or a village or a town without a stop sign,

meeting with the business owners and concerned folks is that people who are ready and it

is a really broad and diverse coalition of folks that are excited for and frustrated

by the fact that we haven't crossed this finish line yet here in Wisconsin.

People were showing up and sharing their personal stories and I'm sure we're going to have

that opportunity to talk about some of what it is that I heard from folks.

But you know, over two dozen stops at businesses meeting with local elected officials and moms

and dads and community members about cannabis policy in Wisconsin.

I think a decade ago, not as many people would have showed up because there was more taboo

in regards to the conversation, but people are ready for it and it's past time for Wisconsin

to get on board.

Yeah, so were there any particular stories from when you were talking to business owners

or, you know, I don't know, even law enforcement or people like that when you went on this

tour that really stood out to you?

Yes, certainly there are, you know, it is clear we have a really

successful illicit industry in Wisconsin.

People across Wisconsin have access to cannabis not only by getting in their cars and driving

to a legal state, which there was a study that was done earlier in 2023 that showed that

adults over the age of 21 over 50% of them live within 75 minutes of illegal dispensary.

On top of the successful illicit market in Wisconsin and you add on to that, the

really lack of regulation, but the reality of businesses selling Delta A products in Wisconsin

because of the federal farm bill.

People have access to this plant and people want more access and, frankly, the business owners,

I think this was one of the biggest takeaways that I had was many of these business owners

are business owners that are selling because of the farm bill, because of the legality

of selling CBD products in Wisconsin, but there is not a lot of rules and regulations and

how it is that they sell it or what the packaging looks like or how it is that they manage

who's coming into the stores or what type of education they're providing to the employees

that work at those stores and to actually have an industry in Wisconsin and I think it's

a budding industry in our state who is saying, hey, government, could you actually involve

yourselves more in our business?

Could you provide us with more understanding because it will be better for our consumers,

it will be better for our employees, it will be better for the communities that we are

in.

Many of these business owners are proactively reaching out to the local law enforcement

officers, inviting them in and talking to them about what it is that they're doing in

their shops, who it is that is coming in and how it is that they're trying to keep their

community safe.

The opportunity on the grassroots tour not only to talk to those business owners, but

also reaching out proactively to the local elected officials within the communities that

we were meeting and inviting them to the listening sessions and hearing from them about what

is and isn't working when it comes to their budgets and how it is to match what it is

that people in their communities want.

Certainly, the lack of regulation of cannabis in Wisconsin is seen as decreasing our safety

and our opportunity in the state of Wisconsin and that was a huge takeaway for me that, frankly,

maybe I should be surprised by it, but I hear over and over again in the Capitol building

that too much regulation, too much regulation, that's a drum beat, but in fact when it comes

to cannabis policy, people want more regulation.

They would welcome them.

Yeah, you mentioned the farm bill that kind of changed things for a lot of, I don't know,

I guess marijuana adjacent types of products, things like CBD, various Delta 8, Delta 9,

whatever, these things that can now be found in gas stations, convenience stores, specialty

shops all over the state of Wisconsin now.

Can you break down what exactly happened with that farm bill and how it changed the larger

landscape for these types of products and their availability in Wisconsin?

Well, I mean, it is complicated and clearly we don't have enough clarity and there has

been conversation about, this is federal policy and as a state senator, I don't have direct

input on federal policy, but there is concern right now that the next farm bill that will

come out could have negative implications on our hemp farmers here in the state of Wisconsin

as well as main street businesses that are selling hemp derivatives within them because

there isn't a lot of oversight right now and aside from how it is that the hemp is tested

in the fields and what the serving size is within dispensaries.

But even in, you know, you even have business owners in Wisconsin that are selling similar

products that are in direct opposition to each other and how it is that they're interpreting

the farm bill and that's why having a Wisconsin policy, a homegrown Wisconsin policy that legalizes

cannabis for responsible adult usage, we would be able to provide that clarity for these

main street businesses that are currently selling CBD products.

It's clear to me from conversations that some of these farmers and some of the small business

owners in Wisconsin that are currently selling want to continue to stay in the hemp world.

They don't want it, even if we were to legalize what I call high octane cannabis products,

THC products in Wisconsin, that they would still want to have the line of business that

they are in now.

They necessarily want to transfer it, but there are other people that are entering into

the CBD world here in Wisconsin because they're excited about the opportunity and the possibility

of legalized cannabis for responsible adult usage and they want to get in on that industry.

And I think with a thoughtful bill, we can increase public safety, we can provide parameters

for business owners, we can provide expectations for consumers, certainly people who utilize

cannabis for personal consumption, whether they're buying it on the illicit market or going

to a legal state or buying it a hemp derived product from one of these dispensaries that

currently exist in Wisconsin.

There's not a lot of oversight as to, you know, are there heavy metals?

Outside of herbicides and pesticides, what is the percentages of the different terpenes

that are in these products?

And, you know, truth and labeling is important for all of us.

And frankly, the fact that we don't have a policy in Wisconsin makes it more dangerous

for everyone, consumers, business owners and main streets.

Yeah, so the lack of policy is really a problem for a lot of people.

So Republicans have recently been making some noise about, you know, potentially proposing

a medical marijuana bill.

This isn't the first time, you know, this idea has been, has been floated by someone,

Republican leadership, particularly in the assembly.

Where do you stand on those proposals more broadly and, you know, what is your, just

big picture assessment of what's being proposed there for what happens.

There's nothing.

Yeah.

But, yeah.

At your point, the devil's in the details, right?

I have not seen anything on paper yet.

So, you know, I can only answer your question based on, you know, what I'm hearing rumblings

through press, who have asked questions and that speaker boss has answered questions that

have been pivoted to him.

But folks in this building know that this is something that I am passionate about.

And I have time after time reached out to my colleagues on the other side of the aisle

and said, you know, I would like to be able to sit down at the table and be involved in

these conversations.

We've seen this legislative session, some real wins when we brought together Democrats

and Republicans, whether it was providing increase investments in shared revenue or

bringing a billion dollars to public schools or to saving the brewers or to reforming our

alcohol bills to our alcohol laws and Wisconsin to actually provide more protections, consumer

protections, which ultimately I see this bill as consumer protections for cannabis users

and for cannabis growers and manufacturers and cultivators.

So, you know, rumor on the street is that there's not going to be any grow your own.

People in Wisconsin for the last decade have told me time and time again that having the

ability to grow your own cannabis is vitally important.

I have heard through the grapevine that there will be no plant-based product, that it's

all going to be hill and tinsure-based.

There's a lot of people that benefit from plant-based products, you know, edibles, you know,

there are concerns that these will be eliminated.

There are concerns about how restrictive this bill will be who has access to this cannabis.

What ailments and is it the legislature's job to decide what people have access to for

health concerns?

We're already having those conversations in the Capitol building when it comes to reproductive

health decisions and LGBTQ health decisions.

I tend to think it is a concern for our state legislature to decide what a medicine is

and who has access to that medicine.

And frankly, that's why it is that I've really embraced a responsible adult use policy

in the state of Wisconsin, but having that medicinal component.

So people can decide somewhere to, you know, you walk into Walgreens if it does provide

you with some sort of medicinal relief in your doctorate reads that you shouldn't have

to pay taxes on that product.

We don't pay taxes on this.

So I think ultimately what I am hearing from folks on the other side of the aisle on what

is going to be included in this bill, it seems to miss the mark based on what it is that

I've heard from people all across the state of Wisconsin, whether on this grassroots

tour over 2023 or the decade before that, talking with people and introducing this bill for

our community to consider.

And just to clarify, they're, they haven't, you know, Republican leadership hasn't reached

out to you or any of your Democratic colleagues to craft this bill at all.

I don't know if they've reached out to other my other colleagues, but they certainly have

not reached out to me.

Okay.

I saw there was another proposal floating around it seemed to have some bipartisan support

that would decriminalize possession of marijuana and small quantities.

I think State Senator Lena Taylor and Assembly Representative Shay Sortwell, I saw there

was a story about that.

What are your thoughts on a proposal like that?

So in Wisconsin, this is one of the things that actually local communities can address

is cannabis decriminalization.

It doesn't legalize it, but many communities across Wisconsin, including in Milwaukee and

in Dane County, and I believe, O'Clayer and Remay and a number of others have taken actions

either at the county level or the municipal level to decriminalize cannabis first defenses

for cannabis-related infractions.

And in many communities, they've brought the fines and fees down to, for example, a dollar.

And the concern with the decriminalization bill that has been introduced as drafted is

it overrides the local actions of local governments.

It would actually increase the fines fees and penalties and or penalties for people within

communities that have already taken the initiative to decriminalize cannabis within those communities.

And we have a number of examples over the last decade where local control has been put

under attack by the majority party here in Wisconsin.

And I understand that this bill is bipartisan and I appreciate the work that's been done

by everyone that has rolled up their sleeves and put their mark on it.

But I do think that in order for it to have any sort of support from me and a number of

folks in the Capitol building and folks across the state of Wisconsin, as it needs to honor

that local control, that work that's been done by local communities to decriminalize and

to allow those communities to go below what it is that the state is proposing.

Because what this bill does is it does decrease statewide.

When you have communities that have taken the steps to decriminalize more aggressively,

it would actually increase what it is that people are being the fines that they are having to pay.

So it would perhaps introduce some more punitive measures to Milwaukee or Madison or some of

these other places that have already passed rules on this.

So obviously, like you mentioned, many neighboring states in the Midwest have legalized marijuana

in recent years, some through statewide referendum, like just happened in Ohio.

Obviously, we do not have that in Wisconsin.

What do you see as the most likely path forward for marijuana to be legalized in Wisconsin?

Yeah, so I think that we're at before of two roles.

Certainly, it's an exciting time in Wisconsin with our Supreme Court acknowledging the fact

that our legislative maps are gerrymandered and that there's unconstitutionality there.

And my hope is that we have more fair and balanced legislative representation in the capital building

as we move forward because of this decision by the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

I think there is a laundry list of issues of which cannabis policy is one of

that will be able to be addressed when we have a more fair and balanced legislature.

Again, having nearly 70% of the folks in Wisconsin supporting full utilization

and over 80% of the folks in Wisconsin supporting medicinal thoughtful medicinal policy.

This is the will of the people and that should be the law of the land.

And whether we're talking about access to health care or addressing PFAS contamination

and environmental concerns, how does it we fund our public schools?

Cannabis is on that list.

And I think there is a real hope that with a more fair and balanced legislature,

we're able to get full legalization passed here in Wisconsin.

But we are also seeing on that other road at the fork is at the federal level.

There are more and more people talking about the wrongs of cannabis prohibition in our nation,

even President Biden, who has been perceived by many people as a bit of a prohibitionist,

is saying we need to reconsider how it is the cannabis is classified at the federal level.

And he is working through federal exponents for federal crimes and encouraging governors

to look at how it is that they can relieve some of the pressure for people

who have been harmed due to outdated laws at the state level.

And again, the genie is out of the bottle at the national level when you have over half

of the states or over half of the people in the United States living in communities

where cannabis is legal for responsible adult usage prohibition didn't work with alcohol.

Back in the day, Margarine was prohibited in Wisconsin.

People used to walk around in their neighborhoods and take orders for Uliho

as they are driving over the border to other states.

It sounds a lot like conversations that people are having as they go to dispensaries

and other states here in Wisconsin.

So whether it's that the path through the federal government or the path through the state,

it's only a matter of time.

One of these things is going to happen.

Certainly, I think a state policy, one that really honors Wisconsin,

it's in our morals and our values is the best way to go forward.

But I would certainly celebrate a federal policy that was comprehensive

and undue, having a hard time with this word,

removes the wrongs that have been caused to so many people because of prohibition in our nation.

So at the state level, there's obviously been a lot of a number of obstacles.

And I think that mostly has been from the majority party that has been

opposed to legalization.

You know, one of the things that always gets mentioned,

you know, when I'll bring up marijuana legalization on social media or whatever it might be,

is the influence of the tavern league?

How do you see their influence on this issue?

So this is an interesting one.

You know, we just had a bill go through the legislature to reform alcohol policy in Wisconsin

to provide more protections, I believe, in our state.

And it was, you know, messy and there were a lot of different people that were at the table.

But I did have the opportunity to sit down with the tavern league and talk about that bill.

And of course, I had to bring up cannabis.

And I pointed out to them, I said, you know, when I travel around the state on this grassroots

to where people will more often than not, someone in the room will say,

is that the tavern league's fault that we do not have cannabis legalized in Wisconsin.

And frankly, I don't see it as the tavern league's fault that we don't have cannabis legal

in the state of Wisconsin. And they've ultimately verified that in my conversations with them.

If they were lobbying against this, they would have to register that they're working against it.

And, you know, they have not registered against the bills.

I do think that in other states that have legalized cannabis,

the alcohol industry doesn't go away.

And I think that really our biggest challenge to having full legalization in the state of Wisconsin

is Speaker Voss and Majority Leader Lemmehue over in the Senate.

You know, they have an awful lot of power over their caucuses.

And their caucuses are typically pretty disciplined in listening to what it is

that the priorities are of what it is that they're going to be addressing

through a legislative session. So I'm going to put blame on those two as opposed to the tavern league.

Certainly, the tavern league could register and support and become partners for us

in this legislation. And I have welcomed them to the table. And then, you know,

would love to sit down with them and talk to them about how it is that we potentially get their

support. Because ultimately, I know that in order for this bill to pass, we need a broad

diverse coalition of people that will get it across the finish line.

Do you get the sense that, you know, beyond Republican leadership, beyond Voss and Lemmehue

that there would be support for legalization among, you know, other Republicans in the legislature?

I do get that sense. You know, I, of course, nearly everyone I talk to,

I take the opportunity to bring this up. And it is, I think initially I was surprising.

And now it's not surprising how many of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle have said,

yeah, you get it to the floor, kid. You know, I'll vote with you. You know, they know that it's

easy to say that because first of all, you have to get it to committee and you have to get it to

committee and both the Senate and the assembly. And then you have to get it to the floor.

But even through that bantering, you know, respectful bantering across the aisle with my colleagues,

it is clear that there are Republicans in both the assembly and the Senate that would vote for

this. And I think, you know, if we got to the point where in the legislature, it was a matter of

majority vote as opposed to everyone in a caucus behind closed doors deciding whether or not we're

moving forward with this. I do believe that we would have a majority of support through both

houses. So, you know, obviously, there's been a lot of change in this issue on across the Midwest

in recent years with with Michigan and Illinois and now Minnesota legalizing. Is there a state out

there that provides the best model for the way you'd like to, you know, bring this legalization to

to Wisconsin? You know, I don't know that there is a state out there that has the best model. I

really do believe that after a decade of talking to people across the state of Wisconsin as well as

seeing what certain states have done and what, you know, what has worked in those states and what

hasn't worked in those states would have been those challenges. That the policy that we have right now

that has been embraced by Governor Evers and that I have been working on for so long really is a strong

policy that provides an awful lot of opportunity here in Wisconsin. You know, I think many states

have tried to make sure that they're addressing past wrongs and social equity. I think oftentimes

they've missed the mark and they've had to go back and retool and change change their laws a little

bit to make sure that they're meeting the needs and addressing the promises that they made as they

were working on that bill. We do have a good portion of the revenue that would be raised through our

bill that would go to social equity here in the state of Wisconsin. The fact that we are really

a state that recognizes and embraces our agricultural heritage. The bill that we have drafted

lifts up our farmers and allows them to be able to enter into the industry. I think that is

vitally important as well. So, you know, it's not like our bill is modeled after Colorado or

Michigan or Illinois. It really is based on thousands of conversations with people all across

our state and meeting with people in other states and learning from them about what worked and

didn't work and, you know, how it is that we can do better. So, within that proposal, you know,

from a criminal justice standpoint, what do you think needs to be done as a remedy for past

convictions if Wisconsin were to pass, you know, a legalization bill? So, in the bill that I've

introduced, if the action of someone would be legal today after that bill passes, but they have

a record on the books because the bill hadn't passed in the previously and it was not violent,

misdemeanor offenses, it would there'd be an automatic expungement. People wouldn't have to take any

action. The government would just clean their records up. And there are paths forward for people

that have non-misdemeanor or, you know, the take of violent. And I know that that is challenging,

but there would be ways for them to petition and have that looked at and have those records

potentially expunished as well. And then the other another piece of that. So, from the like the tax

revenue standpoint, are there any numbers, projections that that would show how much,

how many tax dollars that marijuana legalization would generate for the state?

Yeah. So, we anticipate based on fiscal bureau estimates, roughly $170 million of revenue. When

you look at the revenue that's been made in Michigan, Minnesota and Illinois, I do tend to think

that those numbers are conservative, that we would see more than that. But, you know, that's a

that's for one year. But there is a lot of money. And, you know, the thought that it could be even

more than that, you know, think about what it is that we could be doing here in Wisconsin to address

so many areas where people, you know, people feel like we need more money for our public schools.

We need to address PFAS contamination. How do we address and reform our criminal justice system?

And, with the dollars that cannabis not only would bring in, but not included in that $170 million

is also money that would be saved by municipalities, counties, and the state in enforcing outdated.

And, I think, unjust laws because of cannabis. So, not only would we see an increase in revenue,

but we would have a decrease in expenses for the state, which would be another positive net return

for us. So, your best guess then. When do you think Wisconsin will legalize marijuana?

You said it's open enough time. So, when do you think that matter of time will be?

Yeah, the genie's out of the bottle, isn't it? I'm going to be optimistic and say that my hope is

that in the next one or two legislative sessions, so two to four years that we have legal cannabis

in Wisconsin. So, by the end of the decade, you think Wisconsin is one. All right. Well, any other...

Yeah, I would say, until then, the roads to our surrounding states, the roads to Rockford,

and to the UP, and over to Minnesota, as soon as they start opening up their dispensaries,

I think we're going to continue to see a lot of Wisconsin plates,

driving over the state line, just not very far, two dispensaries, and filling those parking lots

and our tax dollars are going to end up paying taxes in those states, and those states are

going to end up benefiting from Wisconsin eight dollars. Any other big picture thoughts on the issue

before we let you go here? Yeah, I mean, I've said it before, and I'll continue saying,

at the most dangerous thing about weed in Wisconsin, is that it's illegal, and by having a thoughtful,

comprehensive policy that doesn't pick winners and losers in our state, we will be more safe,

more prosperous, and people's personal liberties will be honored in a more true way, and I look

forward to continuing to work on this policy until we cross the finish line. All right. Well, Senator

Melissa Agar, thank you so much for talking with us about this issue at the Reconvibrillation Area

today. Thanks, Dan.