Hello all, welcome to WFHR's Rapids Report for this May 8th, 2025.
Have your host, James J. Mailov here, and we're welcome to the WFHR studio.
Our great friend, Jennifer McNally, Groundwater Educator with the UW Extension.
Jennifer, good to have you with us. Thanks for being here.
Hey, thanks for having me, James.
Always appreciate talking with you.
You like so many of your colleagues over there at UW.
I learn whenever we talk to you.
Our listeners learn about it.
Granted, everybody we talk to has very key important topics.
I don't know if anybody has a topic that I can say confidently.
Literally affects everybody out there, like the ones that we're going to get into.
We have gotten into with you before.
Talking about Groundwater, and we're going to focus on PFAS today.
Yeah, yeah, we are.
So it is actually National Drinking Water Awareness Week.
So May 4th through the 10th is that National kind of celebration of all things drinking water and the importance of it.
And so I thought we would kind of switch gears a little bit and talk about what we call an emerging contaminant.
So it is a contaminant that's kind of newer to us that we're learning more about.
But it has certainly made a splash in the headlines.
And that's PFAS.
So I'm sure most folks out there have probably heard about it in one shape or another.
Whether it's a town like Marinette and Pesh to go or even closer to home up in WASA.
That have struggled with PFAS contamination or people a lot of times will hear it.
But have no idea what it is or whether they should be concerned about it.
First off, the splash line was great.
I'm not going to skate past that.
That was a really good line right there.
But we've been talking about this topic.
So I've been doing this particular show or some version of it for going on almost 10 years now.
And this is a topic that we've been talking about for quite some time.
And I like to ask this not so much, hopefully not putting anybody on the spot.
But more so for the audience and the people that have been around for this topic since the beginning.
Are we seeing improvements?
Are we seeing, are we making a headway with this topic?
What would PFAS?
That's a good question.
I think, you know, we started talking about it in the grand scheme of things about 10 years ago.
Unfortunately, I think we're learning more and more about it.
And so as we learn more about it, yes and no.
We're finding more areas of contamination, which oftentimes doesn't feel like we're making headway.
But we're also really breaking down on what the heck can we do about this and how can we treat it?
And so in that respect, we are making headway.
So both a yes and a no kind of question, I think.
And I think that's completely understandable.
I know that we said 10 years and that can seem like a lot of decade and everything.
For one, almost nothing is it really, especially when you look at the scheme of things in time.
But especially when we're talking about something that look at the damage that was done for the decades and decades
and decades that it was going on, we can't expect things to just happen overnight with something like this.
And that's, I bring it up for some of that.
And also to remind everybody to give some grace with this, with each other, with society.
Also understanding that the patients that this is needed to see this through.
Because there is an end game here.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel with this.
We just got to be patient to get there.
Exactly.
And I think most people don't recognize to how long we've been using these products.
So PFAS really came about in the late 1930s.
It was when they were discovered and developed because they're a man-made chemical.
And so the first one that we really saw kind of gain popularity was Teflon in like 1938.
And so that really took off in the 1950s.
And I mean, if you think about how long we've been using that without really understanding the impacts,
that's a long time.
All things considered.
And so, and the other thing is, I also don't think people realize just how universal PFAS are.
So PFAS stands for per and polyphoral alcohol substances.
It's a group of thousands of man-made chemicals.
So when we talk about PFAS, it is not like, you know, where nitrate is one specific contaminant.
PFAS includes thousands, which also makes it a little bit tougher to deal with.
So huge, huge family products that are used in just about everything.
I mean, what makes them really cool.
And the reason that they were discovered is because they are grease-proof.
You know, they can be used for grease-proof.
So I think like non-stick cookware.
Waterproofing.
So like Gore-tax and raincoats and waterproof clothing.
That's a big one.
And then anti-flammable.
And that's why they're used in the firefighting films that most people are familiar with.
So anything that has a fireproof coating on it.
I mean, everything from our fast-food wrappers to cosmetics, clothing, carpet, all of it contains PFAS.
So these things are absolutely everywhere.
Which also makes them really hard to deal with and talk about.
So where do we go next with this one then?
Where would you like to go next with this one?
So we talked a little bit about what the heck they are.
The other thing that people I think know about PFAS is that they're called a forever capital call.
So what does that mean?
So when PFAS were created, they're created with a carbon-floring bond in their chemical structure.
And that is the strongest known chemical bond that we know of.
And so we can't break it.
Which is why they don't break down.
Made it too good.
Yeah, exactly.
We did a really good job.
So they don't break down in nature.
They stick around.
Which is one of the reasons why we talk about them is because they're not easy to deal with in that respect or to get rid of.
A lot of other contaminants have like a half-life for they break down into other products that make them a little bit easier to handle.
Not the case with this one.
And so that's why I think they get a lot of press is because they hang around.
The other kind of not so great aspect of this is they also bio-acumulate in nature.
And so, you know, if you have like a little minnow who ingest PFAS eaten by a bigger fish, eaten by a bigger fish, that's eaten by a human.
You know, it works its way at the food chain.
And that PFAS doesn't necessarily exit the system.
It just accumulates and more and more accumulates in the system.
Which makes it a challenge.
Yeah.
Which in one hand is really fascinating.
Right.
You know, really, really interesting.
And at the same time makes it darn near.
Well, really impossible to recycle completely or something like that.
Exactly.
And so I don't think, well, at least for me, it was a little eye-opening when I discovered that, you know, I hear about in my work all the time, like PFAS in drinking water and the water quality standards.
But actually some of the first kind of warnings that came out were in fish consumption advisories for folks.
And the PFAS related to those because of, you know, of how they bio-acumulate in the system.
Similar to, like, I think most people are probably familiar to, like, mercury fish consumption advisories.
PFAS are the same thing.
And so that's, that was one of the first advisories that actually came out was for that purpose.
And, you know, the more data, the more we're finding out, the more we're finding out where, not only where these things are showing up, but what we can do about them.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, people always ask, well, should I be testing for PFAS?
And that's a hard question.
That's not an easy one.
Typically, I'm going to be the first person to tell you you should absolutely get your water tested.
Yes.
But for PFAS, that one's tricky.
And to be completely honest with you, for most of us, myself included, testing your water for PFAS is cost prohibitive at this point.
It costs about $300 for a single sample to have it tested for PFAS.
And that's only for a specific subset of those, like, thousands of chemicals.
Didn't know that.
Yeah.
Yeah, so really crazy expensive.
There are only a couple labs in the state of Wisconsin that are certified to test for them, which makes it harder to get to a sample to the laboratory.
And then the other thing is, is this is a sample that's not always easy to collect, because there's really strict sampling protocols for it, because PFAS shed.
If you have clothing that has PFAS in it, or, you know, you're in an environment that has PFAS, the plastic sampling bottles have to be PFAS free.
So there's, like, all of this crazy stuff that goes into collecting that sample.
So for most people, I tell them at this point, probably not something that you're going to be testing for.
For most people, the best thing to do is almost all of the local, like, water utilities, a lot of them have tested for PFAS voluntarily through the state.
So check your close, like, check your closest water utility.
There's going to be a great, like, indicator of whether this might be an issue that you should be concerned about.
The other one, a couple of years ago, the DNR had done statewide sampling of private wells across the entire state.
And so they were spaced kind of equally apart across the entire state.
So those results are another great place to check and see, is there an issue close to me?
If you're in a place where you know there is PFAS contamination, at that point, then it might be something to consider.
But unless it's showing up, probably hold off.
I think we may see that change in the future. I think we may see that cost come down and then become more accessible.
One of the things I've been trying to, and I'll be honest, I haven't probably brought this up in a little while.
I've been a little more bringing up child care and some of those things.
But whenever I have one of our representatives in or anything, I tend to bring these conversations.
These tend to be off-air conversations, but asking, what about you and your colleagues coming together and getting a grant program built?
Or even having more of our government, I don't like to put things on the government because I want them to do the job that they are to God.
But we have a government for certain things and outliers.
And this is one where maybe we didn't see a comment, but here we are.
And this is too expensive for an everyday household.
Having something available like that, like a grant, a scholarship, whatever the case may be, whatever they want to do, if they want to take care of it themselves.
Whatever it is, this isn't an isolated problem. This isn't just happening to one household or one neighborhood or even one city.
This is our whole state, and it's not even just our state because again water is connecting everyone.
Right, exactly.
So, and I say all this in part because of, as well, where I wanted to go with you next, and eventually get to at least, as far as okay, we're telling people what's going on, what can we do about it?
I think that one of the things that can be done is if more and more people are helping, and I mean not just here in Central Wisconsin, I mean around the world.
And even just focusing here on the states and in the US, the more and more of us doing this is how we defeat this.
We can do all the good we want to do in our isolated area, but again, all this water is connected, and all of our lands connected.
And so we got to work together on this one, and thus kind of presenting you with this gen of like where do we go from here?
Yeah, so that's a really good point too, it's all of us working together, and I think the more that we talk about it too, it's another one of those things, the more conversations that we have about it, the more aware people are becoming.
And so we're starting to see that already, we're starting to see products that were made with PFAS, those are starting to be phased out in a lot of cases.
So cookware is a great example of one where we've seen a lot of movement towards cookware that doesn't have PFAS in it.
So read your labels and look for those products and see if your products contain PFAS and choose ones that don't.
Like that's a great personal choice that you can usually do somewhat easily.
So that's a great place to start, and consumer decisions drive a lot of different things.
We've seen that a lot in society a lot.
Continuing to have those conversations with your local elected officials and telling them just how important this issue is or that you have concerns about it.
And I think we have seen movement in that direction, you know, this state actually right now has a special advisory council on PFAS.
They have an action plan in place for communities who, you know, discover that they have this issue.
And those things really came about because of public pushback on that saying, look, we got to do something.
Nobody tell them I gave him credit for this because we'll never hear the end of it.
But the first person I actually talked about with PFAS on the ear here was a representative crew.
And this is something that Scott's cared about for a very long time and something he's been on.
So I think he's a great example of more than not your local representative has probably already been on this topic or has a file about this.
Reminding them that this is important to you is again how we get things done.
They can only do what their constituents tell them, you know, it's their job.
So we got to let them know, hey, this is still important to us.
And I think, you know, not letting, not getting numb to this topic.
Like a lot of things, I know that it can seem so big and so impossible to like, well, how could we ever figure this out?
There was a point in time where there was, there was no convincing certain people were ever, you're never going to get everybody to recycle.
There's no way, there's no way you're going to get everybody to recycle.
There's no way you're going to get everybody to wear a seatbelt.
There's a lot of things in society that they said we couldn't do in human beings did.
They said we never get to the moon.
There's plenty of stuff that we've accomplished and we can accomplish this.
We can get our water to that much cleaner.
Just got to be patient, give each other some understanding and sharing of information.
More times than not, I've known this.
I don't need a survey to tell me this has experienced it in my own life.
The more times than not the people that are afraid of something or numb to something, it's because they're not informed.
They just don't have the information.
And even that is somewhat understandable.
There's a lot out there.
It's a lot to know what to take in sometimes.
Sharing of this information, sharing conversations like Jen and I have had here are part of how we get, we put a dent in something like this.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think the more you know, the more you can kind of understand and it becomes a little bit more manageable, especially on how to deal with it or how to tackle that issue.
And so yeah, there's lots of resources that are available for folks too.
DNR is a great one.
Yes.
Even if you just Google PFAS and Wisconsin, you're going to come up with a whole list.
DNR has got the, like I said, that state action plan as well as contacts.
They have a great map.
Actually, that's a like an interactive mapping tool that shows where communities have tested for PFAS and those results.
And then also like where they have the fish consumption advisories and stuff.
So a very simple user friendly tool that really lets you see across the entire screen.
It's a great idea.
Yeah, state what that looks like.
UW Extension actually just put out an informational web page on a PFAS.
It's called a story map.
They link to the same DNR web mapping tool, but they also have stories on there from communities and people that have been affected, which I think is a really interesting take on that.
So you can just Google UW Extension and PFAS.
That I'll come up.
Extension is also blessed.
We have an emerging contaminants specialist over in the Eastern part of this state who covers the entire state.
She is a fantastic resource on PFAS.
Her name is AJ Jenenga.
So, you know, we've got lots and lots of resources.
And then the Department of Health is another one.
That's a really great resource out there if people want to know more.
All great resources encourage you to check those out.
And Jen is that kid.
I actually used that what you were referencing the UW Extension all that I was using a lot of the effort notes for this interview and everything.
It's a great website.
And you can find out more going to that.
And Jen, if people do have follow up questions, I'd like to know more.
How can they reach you specifically?
Sure. So you can reach me at our phone number for extension in Wood County at 715-421-844-0.
Or you can just Google the Wood County Extension website and all of the staff are listed on there, including myself.
Thank you as always for the great conversation and all the information.
But especially thank you and everybody working so hard on this topic and not letting it go and keeping at it.
We appreciate that very much.
Absolutely.
Good to talk to you, Jen.
Thanks, James.
We'll have more rapid support coming up for you right here exclusively at WFHR.com.
