Welcome everybody to Midday magazine for this Thursday January 2nd, 2025.
Have your host James J. mail off here and welcoming in the studio.
Our good friend Anna Mitchell, natural resource educator with UW Medicine Division of Extension
Wood County.
Anna, it's good to have you with us.
It's good to be here James.
I got to get that title down quicker because we take up half the hour.
It's a mouthful.
It really is.
But we appreciate our friends over extension and working with you guys had a great 2024.
We're going to have a great 2025.
Love having you guys in studio and working with you guys and especially when we can talk
about topics to not only do you guys know your stuff about but are so timely and we're
going to do that right now as we get into winter salt awareness and diving into this
Anna.
Yeah, so it is the season for salting our roads, our sidewalks.
We rely on salt for a ton of things, not just in the winter, right?
We use water softeners in our home, you're around, we're using salt, but it's very prevalent
right now with snow and ice, et cetera.
So in Wisconsin and much of the United States, the chloride from the salt is infiltrating
our lakes, river streams, kind of all of the water sources.
So there's this kind of adverse effect of something that we rely on so heavily here in
Wisconsin and just a quick fact that I thought was really interesting.
It only takes one teaspoon of salt to pollute five gallons of water to a level that is toxic
to our freshwater ecosystems.
I think of all the stats my father has heard.
This is the one that is stayed with him, not just about our UW guests, but all the guests
we've had on.
And I noticed him changing how he does things from that so cool.
That and animals, those are the two big things that made my dad really like shift and instead
of just grabbing that little cup of salt just tossing it around like he usually did,
being very, almost specific with where he's putting it never.
Yeah, and how often you have like this old cup that you picked up from a wedding or something
or an old coffee mug and that's what you use to spread salt.
And we don't realize that there is certain rules to go off of on how to salt.
And I think that one of the things that I just personally I think that I like to note
with this stuff is it's not necessarily anybody, nobody's talking down to anybody or saying,
hey, you should have been doing this all along or anything.
So many things that we learn as we go along and we're just adapting and evolving and
making them better, not just for our environment before each other and affordability, you know,
salt ain't cheap.
Being more specific with it is only going to make it last longer.
Exactly.
There's a lot of reasons for this.
Exactly.
I think one of the big questions while we may think we have a lot of assumptions of where
all the salt comes from.
Yeah.
I think getting more specific about it is helps, so, you know, where does the salt come
from?
Yeah.
So one of the most common ways that salt enters our water is from winter salt use, right,
on our roads, on our parking lots and on our sidewalks.
Chloride concentration levels peak in the winter and spring, right, from spring runoff
when all of that snow is melting and it's not just a snow melting and running into our
water, it's taking everything on our roads, on our sidewalks, on our driveways with
it, right?
And that includes all of the leftover salt that we have.
So road salt has been used as a deicer in Wisconsin since the late 1950s because it's
cheap and it gets the job done, right?
But unfortunately, the salt that we put down doesn't just go away, right?
We put it down, we think it dissolves and sometimes it does, right?
But there's after effects in that spring runoff.
I think one of the things that helped me with this topic and understanding this was understanding
that even the air out there, it can bring things with it.
It can carry things with it.
That's air.
Like so, if air can do that, pretty much physical things in our environment and our society
are going to certainly do that and again, this is one of those things where we've been doing
it for so long a certain way, people may wonder why we're doing it this way, why do
we care about this so much?
Yeah, well, there's a lot of hidden costs to oversalting and I think that's a good thing
to focus on, right, when we think about why we care.
So there's hidden costs and we're also making our water more salty.
So once the salt's in the environment, like I said, it doesn't just go away.
Currently occurring concentrations of chloride are less than 1 milligram per liter throughout
most of Wisconsin, but our surface water and groundwater and the soil even have been
absorbing virtually all of that excess chloride concentrations and it's increased the levels
tremendously.
And then we think about weakened infrastructure too.
That's not something that gets talked about a lot when we think about the effects of salt.
Salt weakens the concrete brick and stone that make up our homes, garages, bridges and roads.
So one ton of rock salt causes between 800 and $3,300 of damages to buildings, bridges,
and other infrastructure.
And we spent a five billion annually replying these things I saved.
So just a pause for a second here on this note right there because we just got done in the
last four years putting a ton of money into our infrastructure.
Almost every community in this country has better roads now than they did four years ago.
Almost every state has better highways than they did four years ago.
I know it's not the most sexy topic, but I will hit on this as much as I can because
it's pretty cool.
It's pretty wild that this has happened.
We want to keep these things nice.
We want to keep the and we don't want to have to in another four or 40 years or whatever
have to worry about this stuff.
We can put our focus on other things.
If we're taking care of our roads and our infrastructure, people have seen the scariness
of what happened in Minnesota with a bridge collapsing in Philadelphia and what happened
there.
These things don't happen just because of the wind.
It's gradual.
It's gradual.
It takes time and this stuff adds up.
That's a really strong note to mention, not only because of the investment we've made
in the last four years in these things, but the investments we'd like to make going
forward.
Right.
And just the saving of it for future generations, right?
You and I and others from UW have talked about this many times.
We don't plant trees so we get to see them grow.
We plant them for nugget generations so we get to see them grow.
This is a very similar thing.
Yeah, it is.
And I mentioned pets earlier because it was a big one for my pet.
He cares so much about his dogs and stuff.
And pet health is another reason for this.
It is.
So road and sidewalk salt can irritate your pet's toes, feet, and skin.
So on the back of a lot of bags of salt, there will be warnings about what is and what
isn't safe for your pet.
So if you do have pets at home, make sure that you're really watching the kind of salt
that you buy because some can be, I don't want to say, toxic, but very irritating to
your pets.
And problems can also arise if your pet licks or licks the salt or licks their paws after
they're out in a walk, that can cause adverse side effects to your pet's health.
Right.
Those paws are really sensitive and we talk about this during this summer a lot and black
tops and a lot of those things and how that can be on their feet.
It's no different in the winter when it comes to salt or how cold that can be and what
that feels like on there.
There's no fur usually on those paws.
That can get pretty dangerous for them.
So licking up it can not only be harmful to them, but can also lead to vet bills and
going to the vet, which is another thing that's going to cost you and everything.
Being smart with this stuff is only going to help you and your furry friend.
Yeah, right.
And then we talk about our pets at home, but we also have wildlife and other plants to
think about too, our natural ecosystem, which can affect those ecosystems as well.
So salt can actually stress plants and animals that have adapted to freshwater ecosystems.
So right, we had said salt that runs into our lakes, rivers, or streams increases the
chloride level.
Well, those fish or the amphibians, whatever it may be, they can't even adjust fast enough
to those increased levels of chloride in the ecosystem.
So that's a huge effect.
So for example, spotted salamanders and wood frogs are two amphibians that are rarely
found once chloride or once pond chloride concentrations exceed 200 milligrams per liter.
And that's because frogs and amphibians, a lot of them breathe through their skin.
And so how are they supposed to with this chloride building up in their ecosystem?
How are they supposed to breathe or how are they supposed to live and thrive?
And I don't think I'm giving any new information here that this is all part of a food chain.
All these animals, all these things we're talking about, whether you care about amphibians
or not, I imagine that you care about deer, you care about certain other animals, that
whether it's for hunting or just enjoying them in the world and everything.
Well, if one goes away, that affects the whole chain.
Yes, it does.
And so much of our state is built on the environment.
Yes, after recreation.
Yeah, talking about that, talking about hunting, fishing, any of these things.
So as you lose a link in that chain, the whole chain gets affected.
So true.
Which affects your bottom line, which affects your dollar.
And I mean, if you think that the north was hurt by not having enough snow, imagine
them not having enough animals.
And while it may, it's not far fetched.
This is not right on science fiction here or anything.
This is science.
This is the way this works.
You want to protect your state, you want to keep your state beautiful, you want to keep
people coming to your state, the people in this state enjoying things, all of this adds
up, all of this ties together.
Yep.
And, you know, one of the huge touristy or not touristy, but like intrigue of coming to
Wisconsin is fishing too.
There was actually an interesting study that I found by Bill Hintz out of the University
of Toledo.
It showed that rainbow trout and habitat areas with high salt concentrations can experience
a decreased rate of growth.
Well, trout fishing in Wisconsin, a lot of people come here to do that, you know, so
that's another avenue that we have to consider is our trout streams and those more delicate
ecosystems too.
These are the things that we want you to keep in mind when you're salt in your driveway.
When you're doing these things, have this stuff in your mind with that, that it all adds
up and that salt that you're putting on your driveway could be affecting the whole
state.
Yes.
Yeah.
And it's something that we want to keep the state beautiful, we want to keep it profitable
in everything.
Yes.
That's where all of this is coming from.
Yes.
Now, we've talked about a lot of things for people I think to keep an eye out for and
hopefully to adjust and maybe adapt to a different way of doing things, but I imagine there's
other people that maybe they were doing those things and they're wondering how they can
help what they can do.
Yeah, so there's a couple of really good ways that you can help when it comes to decreasing
the salt in our environment.
So just, there's some smart, salting techniques that you can do in the winter.
So one of the, I think maybe a little bit more obvious things is to be, is to shovel,
right?
Nobody likes to do it shovel or snow blow, right?
Yeah.
So clearing your sidewalks and other areas before the snow turns into ice is a really effective
way to not have to use as much salt, right?
So the more snow you remove manually, the less salt you will have to put down and the
more effective your methods will be, right?
And then when you're scattering salt, if you use salt, scatter it where there's places,
where there's space in between the grains, you don't need the salt particles to be right
next to each other.
I know we think that that has more of an effect, but it actually doesn't.
So believe it or not, a coffee mug of salt is enough to treat an entire 20-foot driveway
or 10 sidewalk squares.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
I know.
And look, you know, if anything else, think about the fact that you're saving money on
this stuff, too.
You're not wasting a bunch of salt at everything.
Right.
That's another part of that.
Exactly, exactly.
And then if you can switch, so when the pavement temperature drops below 15 degrees,
salt actually will not work, right?
So when that happens, you can switch to sand for more traction.
It's different ice melt there and it works in lower temperature.
It gives you that traction and it's cheap.
Yeah.
The sand is cheap.
Yeah.
Again, a great cost saver.
That's fantastic.
Any taxpayer out there.
Happy to hear that.
Right.
I think along those lines, too, you're seeing a lot more areas using salt more and incorporating
that more.
Instead of sending the trucks out there to salt the roads, when it's, they're paying attention
to the temperatures.
Yeah.
We can send the sand out there.
Yeah.
Or you're seeing, at least I'm seeing this a lot more and in other communities, not just
in this state, but in other Midwest states, you're seeing a lot more of the sand bins by
the edge of the walkway or something like that.
Yep.
I do see those quite often.
And there's other ways that you can do this, too.
Yeah.
So say you hire a contractor or somebody to do this for you, you can actually choose to
get a certified contractor.
So if you hire someone, ask if they're certified through the Winter Salt Certification Program.
There's actually a program that contractors can go through to learn about how to wisely
apply salt.
And if not, maybe you encourage them to be certified, right?
So if you have somebody and you don't know if they're certified, just ask if they're
not, encourage them to go to Winter Salt Certification Program.
It's another, maybe another revenue builder for people out there and businesses out there
as well, to be able to, to be able to have that or highlight that as your business.
As more and more people are going along these lines, because this is something that NNI are
talking about that is a trend that has been going on for years in our country, as far
as people pulling away from salt more and more, and not not using it, just using it smarter.
Right.
Yeah, I'm not saying don't use salt at all, but just make sure that you're educating
yourself on how to use it properly, right?
I think that a lot of us, too, have seen over the years that, that excess salt, that salt
that's just kind of sitting there, left over, clumps up and everything, just like, just
sit there and taunt you.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
That there's doing something with that as well.
Yeah.
So if you have excess salt, you can actually sweep up the leftover salt.
So it reduces the damage to your concrete and protects your local waterways, right?
Some communities even have a sweep the salt campaign, and others have a salt recycling
program.
So that would be interesting.
I'm not sure if we have that here in Wisconsin Rapids, but it would be really interesting
if that's something you're looking to pursue.
I know, I know my community, I know we love to compete with each other once in a while
and everything.
I think that whole salt caper, I think that's a great idea, I think that'd be a lot
of fun.
That's a great one, and certainly getting involved.
Yes.
Yeah.
Get involved.
I mean, get involved, educate yourself on this topic.
Wisconsin has a great program for chloride monitoring.
So that's the excess salt monitoring that is supported by the Isaac Walton League, and
it's called the salt watch program.
So if you're, if you live by a stream or you have a stream that you frequent and you
want to understand, you know, what excess road salt is doing, you can sign up for this
program through the Isaac Walton League.
They'll send you packets so you can go to your stream and sample the water, send the
test back to them, and then they'll let you know what the chloride levels are.
And they're monitoring this to see if there's any increase in chloride levels throughout
the years.
It's really interesting.
It's a really interesting citizen science program.
I know we talked about that a couple of months ago, right?
So just another avenue to get involved.
It's, I think this, first out, you hit it on the head, it's interesting.
It's, I think that that part alone is going to get people to really be curious and look
into this a little bit more.
But the idea also of people being able to, I think, impact their community more, their
neck of the woods more, they're, they're, they're, they're street, you know, and building
off of that and more and more of that happening.
Right.
I think there's that part of it that is really important to keep in mind that you can
make this impact.
And, you know, especially the topic of PFAS has been so big for the last couple of years.
And I, I see so many people that care about that subject and just as many people that,
they get turned tuned out because it just seems like such a big topic.
Right.
How do you clean water?
How do you, you know, any of these things?
But it could not be more opposite that to me.
This is something that every one of us, no matter who you are listening, no matter where
you are listening, we can make an impact on this.
Right.
And sometimes it can feel like an information overload, right?
Like what James and I are talking about might feel like an information overload to listeners.
And that's, that's okay.
Just listen to it again.
And there's this really great resource.
If you're like, I want to be part of the solution, but I don't know how I can take the steps
to reduce my sole use, right?
But here's another way that you can get involved in monitoring local ecosystems.
And seeing the impact of the changes you're making, right?
And that's cool.
You can actually see, oh, well, this dream that I have by my house, it started at such
and such level of chloride.
We've switched to using smart, salting techniques.
And now I've seen a decrease in that chloride concentration.
Right.
So it's cool.
It really is.
It's, it's, it's really cool.
And it, it's also something we want to keep in mind to any maintenance professionals out
there too.
Yeah.
How you can improve your work.
If you're a maintenance professional, like you're working in a municipality or you have
your own business, you can consider taking classes.
Like we had said, to become certified through the Wisconsin Salt Wives program.
These classes promote best management practices like staff education, equipment calibration,
and other incorporations of liquid brine.
So other ways that we can, you know, decrease the effects of ice and snow on our roads.
There's an actual program for this.
That's a partnership between a bunch of different entities like DNR, UW Extension, et cetera.
They have a whole educator that comes to you and teaches you about salt wise techniques,
you know?
It's really interesting.
And, and not only, I mean, I think it's fascinating, I think it really is, but it's also
something that is not only going to be cool to learn, but also help you financially.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
So, just to talk about a little bit of the financial benefits, I guess, of these programs.
So Jefferson County has become a statewide leader in salt reduction.
Their efforts, so they took the certification class, right?
Their efforts helped the county cut salt use by nearly nine million pounds.
Nine million pounds.
Nine million pounds.
Let's sit there for a second.
Yeah.
That's incredible.
That's incredible.
Nine millions of pounds.
But save the taxpayers $500,000.
Woo.
Oh, man.
That's.
And that's Jefferson.
That's a community that could, I don't want to say use it, but any community could use
it.
Yes.
Now, recently here in Wisconsin Rapids in Wood County, there's been a lot of talk about
budget cutting, a lot of, a lot of concern about those things.
I'd like to see just as much concern on this.
Right.
I'd like to see all, anybody that was talking about the Humane Society or any other places
that they'd like to make cuts, okay?
How about right here?
Yeah.
Here's some cuts we could make that would benefit our environment, benefit our community,
and would only help the taxpayers.
Right.
Everybody wins on the one.
Right.
And we have talked about a lot today, and I do think a lot of people, given a lot of people
a lot to think about.
Yes.
If people want to go back and go over some of these things or share some of this information
with their loved ones or friends and family and everything, is there a kind of a place
we can send them to find out all this stuff?
Yes.
So Wisconsin, or it's actually with WIS saltwise.com has a phenomenal resource page.
So that's wi saltwise.com.
They have phenomenal resources on for how homeowners can reduce their salt use, how municipalities
or other contractors can sign up for programs or have an educator come out and help teach
them about how to reduce their salt use.
So just a wonderful program on a wonderful website.
And people have questions for you when I ask you anything or follow up with you, how can
they do that?
Yeah.
You can stop in at the UW Extension Office here in Wood County, or you can email me at
anna.m.james at whiskwicc.edu.
It is always good hanging out with you.
We always learn every time you join us on the airwaves.
Thank you so much for being here with us.
Happy New Year to you and the whole extension team.
Thanks a lot for the time, Amanda.
Thanks so much, James.
We'll talk again real soon.
Yes.
I'm midday magazine for you coming up this week right here at 975 FM 1320 AM.
WFH are locally grown radio.
