Welcome, everybody, to Midday Magazine for this Thursday, December 5th, 2024.
Have your host, James J. Mailov here, and we're welcoming into this studio.
Our good friend, Jen McNally, Natural Resource Groundwater Educator,
UW-Madison Division of Extension Wood County.
Jen, thanks for being here.
Hi, happy to be here, James.
After that title, we have two minutes left.
You can probably squeeze in a few more words, but I'm not sure.
I'm glad we do have some time today, Jen,
because we're going to talk a little bit about Wisconsin's water resources
and salt.
A topic I don't know that we get a chance to talk about nearly enough.
No, no, it's one of those things that kind of people don't really think about it
as they contaminate a lot of times, you know, because salt is,
I'm naturally incurring mineral.
But for us, it can be a bit, pretty big water quality issue,
and especially given the time of year and the weather,
and we're starting to salt our roads and stuff,
it's a great time to start talking about it.
Yeah, we are finally heading into winter.
It is go time for winter.
Mother nature has let us know that for sure.
And you mentioned some important points about that
when regarding salt and the winters.
So let's dive into this and what it means for us across Wisconsin here.
Sure.
So for most folks, most folks are aware that we really have two types of water
in the world.
We have fresh water and we have salt water.
For us in Wisconsin, we are blessed with an abundance of fresh water,
which is great, because that's the water that we need to survive and drink.
And salt water is primarily confined to our oceans for the most part.
So we absolutely need to use fresh water here in Wisconsin.
However, what we're starting to see across the state
is we're starting to see increasing levels of salt in our fresh water,
not only our surface waters, but also our groundwater.
And that can pose some problems for us both for the aquatic life that live in it,
and then also for us who are drinking it as well.
So what happens, how does this happen once it dissolves?
Is it something along those lines?
Is that sure?
So where does it come from?
Is a great question.
So one of the important things about salt is it never goes away.
It'll dissolve in water so we can't physically see it,
and it'll travel with that water.
But it just doesn't magically disappear over time.
And so what happens is those levels actually start to build up
and increase over time.
We really started using salt in about the 1950s for things like road salting.
It was effective, it was cheap, easy to apply.
And so if you consider that we've been using this for 60 plus years,
it really accumulates over time.
And that's where we're really starting to see those issues.
So there's a few really big sources of salt in Wisconsin.
Number one, road salt.
Yeah, yeah, big number one on the list, yeah.
Right, if you drive down the road,
you can actually physically see it on the road sometimes
after they're gone salty.
So road salt is a huge one for us, especially in urban areas.
So areas, cities, villages that are out salting their streets.
That's a big one.
Kind of sidewalks falls in that category too.
Another one that a lot of people don't think about are water softners.
So a lot of us use a water softener in our home.
We like the way that it makes our water taste and feel on our skin.
But water softners use salt.
So a water softener is removing minerals like calcium and magnesium
that make that water hard.
And in order to do that, they use a special resin bead
in their water softener that those minerals stick to.
Only so many minerals can stick to those resin beads.
And so they use a salt brine or a salt water
to wash those off.
And then those hard water minerals and the salt all gets flushed
on your sink, goes to a water treatment plant.
And a lot of water treatment plants just don't have the ability
or the time or the money to remove that salt.
And so then it's going back in our water resources
or down your septic system.
So those are probably the two biggest sources of salt
in Wisconsin, the other one, fertilizers.
So a lot of fertilizers will have a salt component to it
that just is part of that process for creating it.
We don't have a real great estimate of how much
of our salt comes from fertilizers in Wisconsin.
In Minnesota, they estimate about 23%.
But you can imagine it in an area where we have more agriculture.
Yeah, that might be a bigger thing.
It's even though we don't have the numbers,
it's good to have that comparison,
especially with such a close by state
that a similar soil in a similar lifestyle,
but not the same.
So you have to think that that number is higher.
I'm just throwing that out there.
I'm not giving you at numbers here,
but just the science of it and everything.
It's probably pretty similar.
And then dust suppressants.
So folks who live on gravel roads,
a lot of times municipalities will use like a sodium chloride
to make sure to hold down the dust on those gravel roads.
Luckily in Wisconsin, we don't have a whole lot of gravel roads
because of our dairy industry.
And so that one isn't quite as big of a contributor for us.
So with all these factors, Jen,
and before we get into the impacts of salt in the water,
just real quickly, I know we're going to talk about
what we can do about this and everything,
but just it's something that I see all these things
that we're talking about here.
And I know my fellow human beings out there,
we love convenience.
And we like things that are,
well, we've always done it this way
and why should we change it in some of that?
And I know my fellow human beings
are also tired of hearing a PFAS.
And that too.
But we have to keep talking about these things.
We have to because we're kind of so much of this is,
what we didn't know then, we know now.
Exactly.
And none of this is necessarily a judgment on that
or anything.
And I think that there becomes a defense mechanism
and it kicks into for a lot of people
when it comes to that.
And that's not what we're,
that's, first, that doesn't do us any good.
And two, it's not really about that.
We're talking about today and tomorrow.
That's what we're focusing on.
Yeah.
And when we're talking about that,
and again, we'll get into this more in a moment.
But do you see us being able to build
like a good, happy medium here with these things?
Yeah, absolutely.
This, luckily, when we talk about contaminants a lot of times,
it can be very kind of a doom and gloom kind of thing
because things like PFAS,
we don't have a great solution for that yet.
We're still learning about that one.
So when it comes to what do we do about it?
Boy, that's a tough not to crack.
Even nitrates are a tough one.
Things like chlorine,
that's actually kind of an easy one for us
because we can find that happy medium
between being able to use it and use it smartly
in a smart way.
So yeah, absolutely.
This is one of those.
I appreciate you going off script a little with me there
because it's important, I think,
for people to remember that there is a light at the end
of the tunnel, that there are things here that we can do
to make this not only better for us,
but better for our kids, better for the future,
while also still using a lot of these things
that we have used for many, many years and everything.
Decades.
Absolutely.
And in the case of chlorides too,
I think it's also important
because there's a safety factor here,
especially for us,
in Wisconsin,
where we really do have to use this occasionally,
but how can we do it in an intelligent way
that conserves our natural resources,
but also allows us to continue to use that.
And part of the reason we're talking about this
are the impacts of salt in our water.
And if we can touch on that a little bit too, Jay.
Absolutely.
So salt is one of those things
that it really doesn't have a human health impact.
So we're lucky in that respect.
So naturally occurring like chloride,
which is an anion of salt,
but I'll use salt and chloride interchangeably.
So naturally occurring chlorides in water and drinking water
are about one or two milligrams per liter,
is what we would expect to find.
So just keep that in the back of your mind.
We start to notice a salty taste to our water
at about 250 milligrams per liter.
So that's where we start to go,
wait, something doesn't seem quite right with this.
And even then, there really isn't a health impact.
It's more of a preference of what you want your water to taste like.
I will caveat that by saying,
people who are on a low sodium diet
as prescribed by their doctor may want to just keep that
in the back of their mind
because they should be taking their water source
into consideration as part of their low sodium diet.
So my father, my parents and I, yeah, they're dead deals
and I wouldn't have thought of that.
That's really good.
It's not one of those things that you think about,
especially people who have a water softener
that can artificially increase that chloride level.
So that's just a good piece of information for folks to have.
So that's so much of human health concern.
Where we start to get concerned
is really with our aquatic life in our surface waters.
Those ones are probably more significantly impacted.
And if you think about it, it makes sense
because they're adapted to live in fresh water, not salt water.
So when we start raising that salt contact,
they're like, whoa, wait a minute,
something's not right here, frogs and amphibians
are probably the most susceptible to it.
And a lot of times they are not going to be found
in water over 200 milligrams per liter.
And scientists think we're still trying to figure
all of this out.
So scientists think that like young or embryos
are probably more significantly impacted than adults
because their bodily functions that control salts
are not yet fully developed.
And so that's where we're wondering
if there's even a more significant impact there.
So the EPA has set some thresholds
for folks to be aware of.
They're kind of chronic.
They're categorized as chronic and toxic.
And chronic means like you don't want to see the water go
above a certain level for really long periods of time.
And that level is set at 230 milligrams per liter
for surface water.
A lot of times based on that aquatic life.
Their drinking water recommendation
is 20 milligrams per liter.
So significantly lower,
but that's because generally groundwater drinking water
is not as heavily impacted as surface waters.
So that's why that's lower.
So what does it take to get to that level?
This is always kind of one of those fun facts for me.
So it only takes about one teaspoon of road salt
to raise five gallons of water
above those EPA thresholds.
Yeah, so it really does not take a lot of salt
to bring us over those thresholds
that are set by the EPA.
I pre-read this and I still am shocked by that.
But I hope that brings it home.
If any of these other stats didn't,
I think that one's got to really bring it home to people.
Yeah, so one teaspoon, five gallons, which is just crazy.
And well, so much of this is, I think,
I think that this is, it's very,
not very often that we have somebody come in
and we're talking about something
that literally affects everybody listening.
Everybody's affected by this.
And I'd like to think that in knowing so many
of our listeners and so many people out there,
I know you guys care about water quality,
you care about these things.
We've got a lot of people that,
if not every 9.5 out of 10,
care about the environment in this state.
But to anybody who may be hearing this
and you've tuned out or you don't necessarily think
it may approach you or affect you.
We just got done with,
from what I could hear, a pretty successful hunting period.
Yeah.
We know that we have plenty of fishermen out there
and fishers out there and anglers and everything.
And I got a couple of good friends
that are big into fishing and stuff.
All of this is tied together.
Absolutely.
All of it is tied together.
What is happening out of your tap
and you're living or your kitchen
is attached to that water that you're fishing out of
and those deer that you like to hunt,
that's where they eat.
When we talk about,
especially coming out of the last winter we had
and everything, our friends up north
and so many of our tourism spots around here,
how many people are going to want to come here
if the water ain't any good?
Or if we don't have any fish in the water.
Or anything like that.
This stuff all is tied together.
We are all connected and it is important
to pay attention to these things,
learn about this stuff so that we have these things
to offer next generations and tourists and all that.
For sure.
And when we see these chloride levels surface
go this high, Jen.
It's something that's not worthy too.
I appreciate what you mentioned about
tasting salt in the water.
Yeah.
Especially to those that when it comes
to not testing their water or something
or keeping up on that,
that can be a test right there.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's one of the reasons that chloride
is kind of a nice one to use for us
kind of in the scientific community.
It's really easy to test for and watch.
And so it's a good indicator that
if our water resources are being impacted by human uses.
Because that's where chlorides come from is from humans.
And so yeah, super easy.
In fact, people can actually monitor for chlorides themselves.
It's as easy.
There are test strips that are available
and you just dip it in water
and it will give you a chloride level.
Isaac Walton League actually has a program
for monitoring chlorides for citizen scientists.
So people who are out in the community
and just want to know what the heck,
they can offer those test strips free of cost to you.
So check in with the local Isaac Walton League
and ask about their chloride monitoring program.
It's so super easy to test for and keep your eye on it.
I first learned about this.
I would say in a long time ago in my 20s,
so I was a good 20s or a years ago
between you and I, John.
When I first started having fish tanks.
And you of course have to test the water for fish tanks.
So you're just putting that little strip in there
for a second or two pulling out.
You see how the water is for your little friends there
and the fish tank.
It's no different here with your own water,
being able to test it.
And it's very simple, the process to be able to do it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Exact same process that you would do with a fish tank.
That's a great analogy.
We're speaking with Jen McNally,
Natural Resource Groundwater Educator
with UW Medicine Extension.
And Jen, what can we do when it comes to this topic?
So one of the easiest things to do
when it comes to this topic
and talk about salt and water is just be aware.
Be aware of how much salt you're applying
and when you're applying it.
So try and ratchet back on your salt
that you're applying,
use as little as possible
if you can use an alternative like sand or mix the two
because that'll stretch your salt farther.
That's a great way to do it.
Wisconsin is really lucky.
There is an amazing resource out there a program
called Wisconsin Salt Wise.
If you Google it, it'll show right up
that they've got a phenomenal website
with all sorts of different resources.
In fact, there's even a training program for professionals
who do like winter snow removal and stuff
and are salting sidewalks professionally.
They can be trained on how to apply salt smartly
to these resources and get a certification in it.
So phenomenal resource.
They have podcasts, fact sheets,
all sorts of different things.
So really the big one is just being aware
of how much we're using.
For folks who have a water softener,
you can actually, there's worksheets out there
that you can use to kind of adjust your water softener
to make sure it's using the minimum amount of salt necessary.
Or you can look at using a water conditioner
instead of a softener which doesn't require any salt
but achieves the same end.
And then we talked about the monitoring as well.
So those are all great things that people can do
in their own backyard essentially.
I think you bring up a really good point with the sand too
that that's one and it's something that a lot of people
can do and it's not an expensive thing to be able to do.
And a great point too about mixing it with the salt.
And the fact that nowadays we do have other resources.
We do have other options.
As you mentioned there that don't bring any salt
into this.
Yeah, and that's a great point too James
is that salt is starting to become really expensive.
It's a major cost for our cities
and who are applying it to our roadways too.
So they're always looking for ways to reduce
just from an economic standpoint.
In fact today there was a great news article out there
about using Cheesway on streets.
So Green County down in Southern Wisconsin
is using Cheesway as part of their deicing program.
So yeah, all sorts of new alternatives
are coming out every single day.
Yeah, and it's wonderful to hear in a credit
to the not only the scientific community,
but to community members and individuals out there
thinking of these things and looking
for different ways to do it.
And if people are curious about what chloride or salt levels
that might be in their area or in their homes
are the resources that they can go to.
Yeah, sure.
So good one is salt wise actually has a map
of chloride levels in Wisconsin.
So that's a great one to go visit.
You can always get your water tested through a water lab
if you want to know specifically what's coming out
of your tap or you can reach out to professionals
such as myself as well and ask questions.
And we'll give you the information
before we wrap up on that.
I do want to give a big shout out to all these organizations
and different groups that not only we've talked about
today Jen, but different times that we've talked
with the extension members about our water quality
and the different organizations out there
that are working so hard on this.
So much of our ag industry that is trying
so hard to work with our communities
and all kinds of different organizations
to figure out how can we make this work.
And all of this in this whole conversation,
the great information, the great stats you brought us,
all of that is noteworthy.
I hope one thing that also people are coming out of this with
is this is something we can do something about.
This is something that we can fix, that we can make better.
So many times as you touch down,
these topics can see so overwhelming.
And we're talking about something
that is literally a fluid situation in water.
You know, it's a very fluid situation.
So it's understandable that we are learning
as we go with some of these things.
And we're also doing so many people are doing the best
that they can with this topic.
Absolutely.
People think, oh, water, we should have known
so much about this.
Water science is actually a relatively new topic
in the grand scheme of world history.
So yeah, we are absolutely still worthy
and finding solutions.
I could spend an hour talking with you just about that.
Just about how we, why are we so late to this?
Topic for it next time, right?
And a great conversation.
Again, just one more time.
One of them mentioned a couple of websites
at is www.saltwise.com.
It's a fantastic website.
I did not know about it until I saw your notes
and I really appreciated my dad loves that site now.
It's got a bookmarked and everything, so fantastic.
That is www.saltwise.com.
And the UW Extension site is extension.wisk.edu.
And Jen, if people have questions for you specifically,
how can they reach you?
You know, they can go to that website
and find my telephone number, email address,
either one, happy to answer questions all the time.
Really appreciate the time.
And keep in mind that not only with this conversation,
but other conversations with our friends
from UW Extension, you can find them all at civicmedia.us.
Just go under shows and look for the extension logo
or label with that and all the great conversations
we have with our team over there.
Say hi to everybody extension for us, Will.
I certainly do that.
Thanks for the time.
Oh, and have a happy holiday, Joe.
Thank you, you two, James.
You guys, I apologize.
I'm going off script here again for a second
because I wanted to bring this up right away
and I almost forgot.
Jen has the most amazing earrings.
Oh, most holiday earrings.
They're awesome.
I love those snoop earrings.
They look great.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us, Jen.
We appreciate the time.
Well, a more midday magazine for you tomorrow right here
at 97.5 FM 13.20 AM WFHR.
We are locally grown radio.
