Good evening, folks.
This is Attorney Mark Thompson.
Welcome back to your Paul Revere show, folks.
We're here every Monday night on WAUK 540 AM 101.1 FM.
Civic medias.
great show out of Waukesha to the state folks.
Your Paul Revere show is dedicated to the proposition of moving Wisconsin forward.
We'd like to stay on the cutting edge and I am delighted to have back with us tonight Jay Heck from Common Cause.
Welcome back Jay.
Great to be with you Mark and particularly nice to be with you the day after such a Such a surprising but terrific Packer victory,
huh?
I I guess I should have taken that thunder away from you, but yes last night was quite the remarkable feat when Right the chiefs and the Swifties
showed up and found out what Green Bay Packer football was at Lambeau.
And thanks for reminding me, Jay, but yes, it was a wonderful, wonderful evening.
Glad to have everybody who is in love with the Packer football.
But, you know, before we jump into things, Jay, I always like to remind my listeners, you know, what is common cause?
What's its mission?
How'd you get involved?
Just an overview before we start talking about what it means to Wisconsin.
Well, Mark, thank you again for having me.
It's an honor to be with you and thank you for your great service for the entire duration of the Wisconsin Elections Commission, which as we'll discuss is headed into some even choppier waters.
possibly in the weeks and months ahead.
Common Cause is a nonpartisan citizens reform organization.
We don't endorse candidates for public office.
We care about democracy.
We care about the ability of people to be able to vote freely.
We care about fair elections.
We care about corruption in politics.
We care about
the way legislative districts are drawn so that they reflect the population and the wishes of the voters.
In other words, we're what you call, I guess, a public interest good government group.
We have, we're the largest such group in Wisconsin.
We have about 8,800, 8,800 activists and members in every county and corner of the state.
We have bipartisan chairs of the committee.
of the Common Cause, Wisconsin, former Democratic State Representative Penny Bernard Shaber of Appleton and former Republican State Representative and former Court of Appeals Judge David Dininger of Monroe, a great board and a very, very vigorous membership.
And we're here to do battle against those who would try to subvert democracy.
So the I had the privilege last time when you were with us we were talking about the lawsuits that had got filed on the the new maps and Sort of you know what was common causes view of that and just I'd like to you know I'm assuming you've been watching carefully and that the oral arguments have taken place before the new Supreme Court what sort of
You talked about maps and the importance of fair maps to Wisconsin.
How does Common Cause see the lay of the land now after they watch these oral arguments?
Well, you know, the case before the newly constituted Supreme Court, which as a result of the April election, last April, now has a different majority.
It has a 4-3 majority that's more favorable to voters and more favorable
to getting rid of gerrymandering than the previous court.
And so, although it's a narrow majority, 4-3, it does seem poised, I think, to make some changes in the way the legislative districts were finally put into place by the, interestingly enough, the conservative majority of the Wisconsin Supreme Court finally in early 2022.
And the cases are relatively
narrow in scope in the sense that it asserts that the way the districts were drawn because they're not all continuous or have contiguity that it's unconstitutional.
And then the second thing that it asserts is that the maps that are in place now are unconstitutional because it violates the separation of powers.
And that is to say that the governor vetoed the Republican maps
two years ago, but the Wisconsin Supreme Court, the conservative majority, instituted the maps that the governor vetoed, and that is a violation of the Wisconsin Constitution.
So that's how it's going to be fought, and that's what the oral arguments concentrated on, which were held on November the 21st.
But this is an opportunity, I think, for the court to do something, as Justice Korowski said,
not just to tinker around the edges, but to try to really address the problem.
And of course, the problem is that we're very badly gerrymandered.
One of the worst gerrymandered states in the country, certainly the most gerrymandered of Republican states, there are states that gerrymandered pretty badly democratically too.
Illinois is always the classic example, our neighbor to the south.
But so that's that's the lay of the land.
What is what's interesting is that they have to move fairly quickly.
Some expect that a decision could come as soon as January and by in any event it has to be by March 15 that they have a new they have a decision and that the new maps are either in place or being drawn to be put into place because as you know we have a spring primary in April and a
pretty important presidential and congressional and legislative election in Wisconsin in 2024.
So yeah, this this notion of contiguity, what is the common causes layperson definition of this issue?
And you know, how does it implicate this issue of whether or not the maps are constitutional?
whether it's fair and How do you get around this biased?
Republican gerrymander, we're not talking about partisan gerrymandering.
I you know, I realize I'm the lawyer but But from common cause, how do you take that these notions out to the public?
Well, you know the oral arguments were interesting because the conservatives and the guardians of the status quo
Assert that this is not a big problem.
And so your listeners understand what contiguity means.
The Constitution, and it makes sense, says that all legislative districts have to have connection.
They have to be all part of one another.
They have to touch each other.
They have to all be, if not a unit that makes sense, at least be geographically
contiguous or connected and in Wisconsin there's roughly 40 districts that where that isn't the case where there's these little islands that have been stuck in that the Republicans said okay well that township boats this way let's put it in this district and So so that's unconstitutional that needs to be fixed.
So the argument for the court is whether they just
Fix those things or as justice Karofsky said why not make take an opportunity to Redraw the maps rather than just tinker around the edges and really make maps that are that are better for Wisconsin So that's going to be the argument between the two factions on the court and common cause Believes we like Joe Karofsky's thinking this is an opportunity to actually be able to at least bring some
degree of fairness to these maps.
These maps were made even worse in 2022 than they were in 2011 when they were the most partisan maps drawn by any legislature in the country.
So we think that the court can use this opportunity.
And as you know, being a lawyer, the court can basically do what it wants.
So the question will be whether they'll order maps to be redrawn, whether they'll pick from existing maps.
There's plenty of maps out there that could be chosen from.
It's going to be interesting to see how they get through this.
And as you may know, it was a very, very contentious oral arguments, not so much on the part of the advocates for the lawsuit and the advocates defending it, but between the justices themselves, a great deal of nastiness.
And there's no love lost between the personalities on that court.
And so my guess is that we'll come out with maps that are certainly fair.
I don't know to what degree they're going to be, you know, 50-50.
I don't think we're going to get there, but I think there'll be better maps in place for 2024.
And this lawsuit is seeking to have all of the legislative districts drawn, not just all 99 assembly districts, which are up every two years, but all 33 Senate districts.
half of which are up every four years.
And so the ones that were, where people were elected in 2022 would then be up again in 2024 for another election.
And that could change the complexion of the Wisconsin legislature to a significant degree.
Yeah, you know, I was going to ask you what Common Cause's view was on that issue because, and just to be clear, folks,
There are 33 senators and they're served for your terms.
And in 2022, senators were elected to run through 2026.
And part of the issue is before the court, what do we do with those folks?
Do we cut their terms short, make them have new fair maps across the board and start this process anew?
It sounds like common cause is advocating for new maps across the board.
Well, I mean, I think that given the fact that the previous majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court selected maps, they disregarded basically at the end of the day, they ignored the governor's veto of the Republican maps and so cut him out of the process.
I think what needs to happen is that the court needs to look at other maps.
Now, the fact that the 2022 elections were held under these very skewed previous maps indicates to me that those people, sure, they ought to have to run again.
That would
include some- Jay Heck, common cause.
We'll be right back with more from Jay Heck on the maps on democracy in Wisconsin.
This is your-
Paul Revere show folks, this is attorney Mark Thompson, WAUK 540 AM 101.1 FM.
Welcome back, folks.
This is Attorney Mark Thompson.
This is your Paul Revere show.
We are here every Monday night from 7 to 8 on WAUK 540 AM 101.1 FM.
And folks, I am delighted to say I have Jay Heck of Common Cause with me tonight.
We're talking about the gerrymandered maps, the Supreme Court oral argument and what
Common cause is looking for coming on the other side And I know that jay wanted just touch based on what the maps meant and the congressional races What are the implications so go ahead jay?
Well mark what I what I simply wanted to say is that one of the reasons why I think it makes sense for all of the All of the state senate districts to be put up again in 2024, but even the ones that just happened
in 2022, a classic example in the Milwaukee suburbs, there was a very competitive state senate district, the eighth district that used to be represented by Alberta Darley, I'm sorry, by what was the guy's name who left.
Anyway, it was a competitive district, Walwood Toast is some other areas, and it was
It was carved up by the Republicans in this last redistricting process, so that it wasn't that competitive anymore.
And yet, last April, in a special election, a Democratic candidate came very, very close to winning it.
And had it not been for the case that it had been further gerrymandered by the Republicans, the Democrats would have been able to pick up a seat.
Now, I'm not a Democrat.
We're not partisans.
But it does seem to me that that was a deliberate attempt to skew the majority even further in favor of one political party.
That seems unfair.
And that happened in a number of other districts around the state.
So I think it makes a certain amount of sense to be able to look at new maps for the entire state and have the elections for all of the state senators and all of the members of the assembly up again in November of 2024.
So I just want to sort of turn the page here, you know, we heard a lot about impeachment from certain Republicans and you know, they were threatening to impeach Justice Janet Proto say what's before she ever decided a case We know now that the map case had was argued.
She's on that we're
were passed December 1, which was a key date for an impeachment, which would have meant if they would have tried to impeach Governor Tony Evers, that would have been appointing a justice up through 2031.
But now they're talking about impeaching, or there's still pressure on Speaker Voss to impeach Megan Wolf, who is the administrator.
nonpartisan administrator of the Wisconsin Selection Commission.
What does Common Cause think of all this impeachment talk?
And particularly it now focused more, it seems, on Megan Wolf, a nonpartisan player.
I mean, someone dedicated to the public interest on a nonpartisan basis.
Common Cause is the nonpartisan entities.
How do you see that playing out?
Well, Mark, you know, when I moved to Wisconsin in the late 1980s, I worked in the Capitol and, you know, the state Senate was divided, Republicans, Democrats.
But there was always a sense of fairness and adherence to the Constitution and to the truth.
And one of the most shocking votes that I have experienced
in my 30 years nearly in the Capitol, was the vote last year by the State Senate earlier this year by the State Senate Republicans to remove Meghan Wolf as the administrator for completely false, made-up reasons.
And the worst part is they knew it.
They knew they didn't have the power to remove her.
They knew
there was no vacancy and that she was, she is in her position within the legal scheme of things as the nonpartisan administrator of Wisconsin elections.
Well, and not to mention that she has done an outstanding job and a nonpartisan job.
But the point is the fact that the Republican Senate, all 22 of them,
and people that know much better, Rob Coles of Green Bay and a number of others that should be ashamed of themselves.
They voted for this knowing that it had no basis in law and they did it simply because there are some crazy people on the far right that make a lot of noise and are determined to remove Megan Wolf and are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars running negative ads now in that regard.
But it was shameful that the Senate didn't stand up to those people and say, first of all, we can't.
And second of all, we shouldn't.
And let me just add this.
You know, Megan Wolf, she is courageous and brave to the extent that I have almost greater extent that I have seen almost anybody in state government.
I mean, she doesn't need this.
And yet she stands strong.
She's got personal
threats.
personal threats to her safety.
Yes.
Like no one
else.
Like no one else.
And it's remarkable that she is determined to stay in place because the Wisconsin Elections Commission, the commissioners are the people that make those choices and they've chosen to keep her.
And as they should because she knows much more
about how to administer elections.
She's been in that job in one capacity or another.
Since 2011, she's been running elections in Wisconsin.
She's very, very knowledgeable.
And by the way, all of those Republican senators that voted to get rid of her, they all voted for to be administrator a few years ago.
The only things that's changed is that there's more crazies in the party who want to get rid of her.
And it's just, it's shameful.
Yeah, I wanted to touch base here in our last few minutes here with Jay heck of common cause today Senator Dan Kanotel Issued a press release.
I guess it's not a press release.
It was a formal email They are now looking for co-sponsorship of the bill
that abolishes the Wisconsin Election Commission and puts elections under the control of the Secretary of State.
How does common cause, I know that this is an issue that you've dealt with in the past.
What's your view of this latest, I don't even know what to call it, but latest shuffle.
It's a combination.
This is another iteration.
of partisan Republicans trying to seize and maintain control of how elections are administered and how, with the results of elections, will be in Wisconsin.
They got rid of the Government Accountability Board in 2015 and put into place the Wisconsin Elections Commission.
All of them voted for it.
Now they want to get rid of the Wisconsin Elections Commission because they don't think they have sufficient control.
to exert their will.
This should go down.
The governor needs to veto it.
We will fight against it with every ounce in our power to do so.
Thank you, Jay.
Heck of common cause.
This is your Paul Revere show.
Jay, we'll have you back when we get some new news on the maps.
We'll be right back.
Great.
Thank you.
Happy holidays.
This is attorney Mark Thompson.
This is your Paul Revere show.
We are here every Monday from 7 to 8 at WAUK 540 AM 101.1 FM.
For the rest of the show, I'm honored and privileged to have back Pastor Greg Lewis from Souls of the Poles and Anita Johnson, who wears many, many, many hats.
She's on the Board of Citizen Action.
She's been active with souls to the polls as well.
She has served on the advisory committee to the Wisconsin Elections Commission on the observer rules.
And folks, we just spent the last half hour talking to Jay Heck from Common Cause.
And we're talking about the new maps and the Supreme Court.
And I really thought it would be appropriate to have the two of you here talking about, you know, how, how do you see this from the African-Americans point of view?
Where are we at?
You know, and where are we headed?
So, fire away whoever.
Hello, Anita.
Hello, Pastor Lewis.
Can you hear me?
Yeah,
I can hear you.
OK, Anita, you're OK.
So what do you think?
The Supreme Court just had the oral argument on the new maps.
What are you hoping for?
And what are you thinking?
Well, I know that even if we get new maps, which I hope we do, it's not going to be a huge change right away.
It will take a while for these maps to become effective.
So I
just
hope that there will be some type of change.
What are your concerns with this whole discussion of new maps and the timing of it?
It's hard for me to talk about those maps.
We have been done so dirty.
by the way, they have drawn those maps.
It's hard to have hope that those maps will be ready for any election.
I'm so disgusted with the way that those maps were drawn because, you know, our people are not, our votes are not getting counted like they should be when we go to the polls to vote.
So even if they change the maps again,
It won't be a big effect on the election, but it might make minor changes.
That's all I can say right now about it.
So, Ambassador Lewis, what are you here in the community and what is sort of your outlook on this whole discussion of the new maps?
I just don't think people really...
really care you know they're so sick of politics they don't really care especially about something so um or how can i put it meticulous as drawing new maps you know people don't even have a an inkling of what that means in most cases i'm not just talking about in my community either you know people don't know that the maps were drawn so that one party could stay in power
perpetually and they don't understand these maps and even folks who follow maps and fair maps really don't understand what's going on here.
I asked a question the other day.
I said, well, if they draw new maps, who's going to be in on drawing them?
Because the density and the population and communities in urban areas is so much higher than, I mean, so much higher
than the areas in these where their rule the fair representation just it wouldn't even be I don't think adjusted because most of the people you know who live in Wisconsin or a lot of the people who live in Wisconsin live in urban areas and others live in these rural areas
And if you draw maps, if there was a fair representation, we'd have a lot more representation in these communities of color.
So I don't know what all this is going to mean, but I do know that you can't continue to just leave all this power in one party's hands who don't get the most votes.
that just doesn't seem fair at all.
This is a democracy and we're leaving all the power in one party's hands and they don't even get the most votes and people don't understand and frankly I don't really think anybody is really you know considering the ramifications of really
having these maps that are drawn in a way that people can just continuously keep power even though they don't have the votes.
The most votes.
Let me put it to you like that.
I
have to agree with Reverend Lewis.
Most voters don't even know anything about these maps and what they represent.
They're just clueless to the whole thing.
You know, even when I talk to people, I try not to talk about the maps too much because that would discourage a lot of these voters from going to the polls because the first thing they're gonna say is, well, my vote is not gonna count if this is the way they drew the maps.
So we have to be careful what we tell the public when we're out there because we want people to vote.
And we have a very important election next year.
And if we don't get people to the polls, I'm telling you, it's gonna be a sad commentary.
You know, I think that's a really, the two of you make a really, really important point.
And the fact that the maps have been so gerrymandered for so long, where one party completely dominates, happens to be the new right wing Republican party.
I mean, that actually, you know, attacked Milwaukee and the African American community and continues by attacking diversity, equity, inclusion, you know, attacking the University of Wisconsin system on the same basis.
And, you know, I think, you know, part of what you're saying is so important.
Part of the gerrymander is to discourage people from ever having hope.
And, you know, I think Anita, you really, really said it.
Next year, you said it's a very, very important election.
How do you see it being so important and how do we go about going out there, talking about these issues in a way that encourages people rather than discourages them?
Well, you know what, Mark, I have already been out as well as Greg this year.
encouraging people and talking to them about the importance of voting.
And what we're finding is there is a group of young people who are very discouraged about voting.
And you know, I work on a non-partisan basis.
So it's hard to say that, you know, you should vote for the Democrat or the Republican, but the ideal is to get them out to vote.
And people are discouraged with the two candidates that are running.
And I would say from the ages of 30 to 45 or 28 to 45, these people are talking about not voting.
So we have to find
a common denominator to talk to them about to say well these things might be taken away from us if you don't go and vote.
And I have even said to these people do you know that you're right to vote?
can be taken away.
So these are some of the things that I'm finding out already.
It's not the senior citizens who are not talking about voting.
It's the young community who are talking about not voting.
So I'm trying to find something to talk to them about, to encourage them to get to the post vote.
This has not been easy because we've been doing it all year.
right now, before this month, people were not interested in voting at all.
So, you know, we're trying to wrap everybody up and get them excited about voting.
Go ahead, Pastor Lewis.
You know, I just have to agree that, you know, especially young people, they're kind of sick of politics in the way we have been running, you know, our politics, our city, our state.
our country and it's just not something that we can overlook because you have to have these young people involved because they're going to be key and if they're not voting you know we don't there's there's not a snowballs chance and you know where that you know you're going to have uh young folks excited
about this election It's just not but but you always have to work towards it because people have always have to understand the most powerful vehicle we have in this country is Elections and the vote See and people just don't understand that people don't understand the real raw power of the vote and especially young people because Most young people have been given what they've got
Everybody didn't have to fight for what they get.
In our community, we used to have to fight for what we got.
We had to fight to get the vote.
We had to fight for housing.
We had to fight for jobs.
And we're still fighting for all of those things.
And young people don't understand that those are rights that we have.
to have all these things, and they should be availed to us, but they're not.
See, because they've grown up in a time where everything has been given to them, and they didn't see the struggle, and now we have a struggle.
And here's the other thing, too.
And I always say this, we have our white brothers and sisters who are willing to vote against their own self-interest.
See, that just doesn't make sense to these young folks.
Why would you vote against your own self-interest?
Why would you vote against something that's going to go against what you need, what you want, what you have to have?
Why would you do that?
And then it comes up, the bigotry, the hate, the racism.
It just shows his ugly face in these situations.
And that's another huge turnoff for sensible voters.
It really is.
This scorched earth politics, they'll burn up everything, they'll destroy everything just to keep power.
That's a turn off for rational, reasonable, common sense people.
You've laid out some very, very, to me, profound observations of where folks are at.
particularly in the city of Milwaukee.
And what are some of the steps that you think we can take to turn things around and address it?
Because I agree with Anita.
2024 is a very, very important election.
And I'm hopeful that the new maps at least
you know if we get them in time they will break up this one party complete control where we can have more discussion statewide uh in the interim what what steps can we take
we have to keep trying to build power see
There's a difference between building power and running elections.
See, we have to continue to build power.
We have to continue to show how people working together can get things done.
And you do that like one step at a time.
You have to keep building these organizational partnerships.
You have to keep making sure that people understand that you're just not in these fights just in election time.
You gotta help people understand that we're not just concerned about
We're concerned about having folks do what needs to be done to get what they need to live and survive.
Building power, working together, doing that.
Folks.
Well, Anita,
hold on one second.
One second.
Anita Johnson, Pastor Greg Lewis will be right back with me on the other side.
to talk more about building power moving Wisconsin forward.
This is attorney Mark Thompson.
This is your Paul Revere show.
We'll be right back with more.
with his attorney, Mark Thompson.
This is your Paul Revere show.
I am so honored to have with me tonight Anita Johnson and Reverend Greg Lewis out of Milwaukee.
And we are talking about the importance of the right to vote and how to build relationships and build power for people.
How does how do we do that in a in a state that has been so gerrymandered?
We just had one party control and Before the break Anita you were gonna jump in and talk about Some some thoughts on this concept on this topic.
Yeah, and this can happen all over Wisconsin Once we convince a family member that they need to vote
This family member needs to talk to their family.
Each individual person in your family, you need to talk to.
You need to talk to the people that you work with.
You need to encourage people that you go to the church with.
You need to encourage people you bowl with or you go to the Y with.
You have to encourage your family and your friends
that of the importance of voting.
Also, I feel that when there are changes, the legislator needs to be a little more transparent to the public about these changes.
People should not go to the polls to vote and find out there's a change that they were not even aware of.
For instance, we cannot do early vote at Midtown anymore.
That site
has been changed.
There's nothing, there was a couple of articles in the paper, Souls to the Post partner with their partners, and we had press conferences about this to let people know what was happening.
But there hasn't been anything else really to the public to let them know that Midtown is not a place that you can go and vote or do early vote.
in February.
We need to be more transparent to the public so they understand these changes before the election, not the day of election.
I think your point is one that a lot of folks listening may not have the same problems.
Midtown was a very, very important place where many, many African Americans were used to voting.
What Anita and Reverend Lewis, as you're sitting here now, where is going to be the next location?
And what is it that, you know, because certainly we can start talking to Milwaukee County City of Milwaukee elected officials on what they need to do to make sure
that everybody knows.
And we're not waiting till the day before the election.
Right.
This is December.
The site has been changed to 60th and capital.
It's an old Northwestern bank.
I was just talking to one of the commissioners today.
And I said to him, what is the election commission
going to do in letting the public know where you can vote, do early voting, since we're not going to Midtown.
Personally, I think they should just drop the term of Midtown, have a new name for the new location so people are not confused.
when it's time to do early vote.
That's what I feel personally.
If you keep saying Midtown, even though that is the area Midtown, we need to know exactly where we go for early vote.
I know that we're going to have people out at Midtown to say, we don't, you don't vote here anymore.
Go across the street to 60th and Capitol.
But I just feel that this news is coming a bit late.
And it should have
been.
So it's it's late and now we're coming up to the holidays and New Year's and right.
I mean, people are going to.
Yeah, we got a primary February 20th.
Right.
And so as a practical matter, what you're saying is what are we going to do early in January to make it loud and clear where people need to vote?
The and talking to people.
Is there a new brand name that works for you in need of it?
Because 60th and capital doesn't excite anybody, right?
Right.
The Voting Center?
No, I really don't have a name.
I think, no, I don't have a name.
Let's put it out there.
Hey, folks, let's come up with the brand name.
come January 1st, we're all headed there.
I think that's crucial.
It's crucial.
How do you see this playing out, Reverend Lewis?
It's just another piece of what we call suppression, discouragement for people of color to throw up their hands and say it don't really matter.
That's all it is, but that can't stop you.
You still have to do your part.
You have to do your civic duty.
You have to make the decisions that would often be made by folks who vote.
You still have to be in that number.
You have to, or else things just won't happen for you.
You know, always say, we just have to stop letting things happen to us.
We got to make things happen for us.
That's what we got to happen.
I mean, you can be so, you know, you can be upset or you won't, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
You know, nobody really cares.
So we have to be adult and focused.
And you can't, you know, in these days and times, you can't depend on instant, how could I say it, instant results.
there's going to be work to do to get things done.
So we have, we now have a mayor, African-American mayor, right?
Chevy, we have an African-American executive, county exec, David Crowley.
Have they been more responsive than previous?
And are they stepping up to the plate to make sure that we get
60th and capitol straightened out.
We got 10 seconds.
One of you have shouted out.
Yeah, they've been very, very helpful.
As well as the alderman in that district.
Yeah.
So folks, this is attorney Mark Thompson.
This is your Paul Reger show.
Thank you so much, Anita Johnson.
Thank you so much, Reverend Greg Lewis.
We'll be back.
after New Year's with you and we'll find out whether we've got a brand for that new voting center and whether we've made progress.
Folks, it is so glad to have you.
Thank you so much.
Keep moving Wisconsin forward.
We got to do it, folks.
We got to do it.
Thank you
all.
Good
night.
