Union Strikes (Hour 2)

Good morning and welcome to John and Gordy in the morning.

The guys are off today, but they're back this afternoon at two from two to five So you can catch them then but for now you got me Matt Rothschild and Dom our great producer and engineer this morning.

How you doing?

Not too bad.

Not too bad though.

The the roads are just awful.

Just awful.

Yeah, surprisingly still a little dicey out there

They were dicey in Madison downtown last night.

I was trying to parallel park on Butler Street and That was a really tricky

proposition.

I can't parallel park no matter what like, you know, that's when I took my driver's test Years back.

That was the one thing I got off was parallel parking everything else I did perfect, but I can't parallel park.

Oh, there was some funny bit in the movie where

Guy and his girlfriend are having a fight and so he walks out and in a rage and says I'm just gonna go practice parallel parking for an hour Crack me up, but the road's coming in today.

I come in from the south of Madison and merging onto 14

You know, cars are coming at you at 75 miles an hour.

I'm trying to get on this ramp here, which is icy and dicey.

And so I can't speed up to get to a decent merge speed.

So it's a little tricky

out

there.

So if you're you're driving and still not quite clear on the roads in Madison or leading to Madison, so be careful.

Don't get in a car accident.

It's not worth

it.

And I actually have a little story about that, Matt, real quick.

I said this yesterday, but I also

During the Thanksgiving weekend, you'd think it was Saturday morning, I got into a car accident.

You did, really?

Not a car on car, but I did a full 360 on the expressway.

Oh, God.

Yep, and I rammed into the barrier, and my back right bumper is just destroyed now.

You were

able to drive away though?

Yep, able to drive away and yesterday I got new tires, so I should be good.

I'm getting new tires

on Friday.

That must have scared the bejesus out of you

though.

Yeah, it really did.

Luckily I was the only one in the car, so I was the only one that freaked out.

I didn't freak anyone else out, but it's a scary situation.

could have got killed though.

Yeah.

Well, I'm glad you did it.

I'm glad you're here.

It's always fun working with you.

And we've got a great show today at 635.

We've got one of the Starbucks Strikers right here in the studio.

They've been out picketing downtown Madison.

Her name's Ali Kerr.

It's 705.

Joanna Bennett will join us.

She used to be on the Common Council here in Madison.

Now she's running for the assembly.

Then we got

Pulitzer Prize winner, David Marinus, come in and at 7.30, can't wait to talk with David Marinus, one of the best writers in America.

And finally, Liz from Serenity Pets Spa.

So it's gonna be fun.

Of course, we'll have time to talk politics and birds.

You can call in anytime.

with your bird sighting or bird question or your political grievances at 608-879-8255.

That's 608-879-8255 right here on WMDX or you can text us at the same number.

Always nice to have conversation with folks out there about what's going on in our world and what's going on in birdland.

But usually we do the bird discussion

Toward the end of the show, but the show so packed We'll probably get to it this half hour Dom and also I always try to bring a poem to the air when I'm on because it just gives another dimension to things and so why don't we do the poetry right now since We're crowded at the end of the show.

So this is how I found this poem.

It's a poem called Blizzard

Obviously on Saturday

it was

coming down like crazy and I was looking for a snow poem.

Of course there's the obvious Robert Frost snow poem that I didn't want to read because we're all taught that in school and it's kind of a cliche.

So I was looking for something better and I found this really neat poem by a poet.

whose work I only faintly knew.

Her name is Linda Paston.

She was the poet laureate of Maryland in the 90s.

She's not with us anymore, but her poem Blizzard is with us.

And it's only about a minute and a half long by my slow reading.

So let's rip and read here.

This is Blizzard from Linda Paston.

The snow has forgotten how to stop.

It falls, stuttering at the glass, a silk windsock of snow, blowing under the porch light, tangling trees, which bend like old women snarled in their own knitting.

Snow drifts up to the step over the door sill.

A pointillists blur.

The wedding of form and motion, shaping itself to the wish of any object it touches, chairs become laps of snow.

The moon could be breaking apart and falling over the eaves, over the roof.

A white bear shaking its paw at the window, splitting the hive of winter.

Snow stinging in the air.

I pull a comforter of snow up to my chin and tumble to sleep as the whole alphabet of silence falls out of the sky.

I just think that's a cool poem.

I love the old women knitting image.

I love the snow, the white comforter she pulls over herself, which is like snow.

The poem again is Blizzard, the poet Linda Paston, former poet laureate of Maryland.

That's Paston, if you want to look it up, P-A-S-T-A-N.

So that's our poetry for the day.

Let's start talking a little politics.

I have a couple of notes of history.

Today is international day for the abolition of slavery There are an estimated this is a United Nations day.

There's an estimated 50 million people in modern slavery including 28 million enforced labor and 22 million enforced marriage Some are in are exploited sexually.

That's the the Epstein scandal So this is a day

to talk about that, too, if you want to talk about that.

Also, on this date in 1859, abolitionist John Brown was hanged.

And most pertinently, in 1823, on this date, President Monroe declared the Monroe Doctrine asserting US dominance throughout the Americas.

So here we are, 202 years later, and Donald Trump is continuing in that inglorious tradition.

I remember in his inaugural, his second inaugural address, he talked about manifest destiny.

I mean, this guy is still doing it, though he should be noted not an exception.

U.S.

presidents from enrol on down have been acting like the Western Hemisphere is our little sandbox.

And so that's what Trump is doing now with Venezuela.

That's what he's doing with those boats.

I mean, the big story of the last.

48 hours is this Hegseth story, kill everyone on the boat, including the people who were just hanging on.

Yesterday, the Trump administration, including Headseth and Carolyn Levitt, started to spin that it was all the Admiral's fault.

Here's what Hegseth said, even though the Washington Post had reported that he said kill everyone.

Hegseth yesterday, Admiral Mitch Bradley.

is an American hero, a true professional and has my 100% support.

I stand by him and the combat decisions he has made on the September 2nd mission.

That is knifing his admiral in the back.

It's quite astonishing the way they throw people overboard there.

The interesting thing, you know, I was listening to John Gordy in the afternoon while I was driving around yesterday and

John pointed out something that I hadn't heard before, which was that Lawrence Tribe had posted something from the Department of Defense, now the War Department, law of war manual.

Tribe, who was a Harvard law professor, highlighted a section of the war manual.

that outlines the requirement for service members to refuse illegal orders.

And the key example, according to Lawrence Drive, in that manual was orders to fire upon the shipwrecked.

And of course, the two people there who were knocked off on the second strike were shipwrecked.

And I'm not gonna, I don't wanna use that expression that people have been using double tap.

These are euphemisms for war crimes.

Make a euphemism and just use this new phrase just because it's kind of cool to use the you for it new phrase I'm not gonna do that.

This was a second strike on people who were shipwrecked It was obviously in violation of the law of war the whole enterprise of hitting these boats is illegal under US law and under international law So, you know at some point these folks need to be held accountable

Donald Trump has immunity from the U.S.

Supreme Court.

You may not have immunity from the International Criminal Court.

Hexeth certainly doesn't.

So that is one story that's caught my eye.

And if you want to weigh in on that story, if you're listening and you have your own ideas, the number to call 608-879-8255.

The other story that

caught my eye over the last couple days that I think is just reprehensible.

Is this story about the college student who's trying to get home for Thanksgiving, who is grabbed and deported?

Let me just read a little bit.

A 19-year-old college student was about to board a flight to surprise her family for Thanksgiving when she was detained at Logan International in Boston and deported to Honduras two days later.

The student was brought by her parents from Honduras to the U.S.

when she was seven.

Her lawyer said that she had been deported.

Check this out.

In violation of a court order that a federal judge signed on Friday that said she couldn't be removed from the U.S.

while her case was pending and yet the next day she was removed.

This is, again, the Trump administration totally ignoring judges' orders, acting illegally and sending this poor

student who was studying business at Babson College in Wellesley, Mass, out of the country, against judges' orders,

just outrageous.

And you think, you know, she finished off her finals, she was ready to go home, and she was super happy, and then that happens.

It's just

awful.

It's appalling.

It's appalling what this government is doing, how they are trampling on our civil rights and our civil liberties, how they are scapegoating immigrants.

I mean, Trump, after that,

Afghan refugee who had worked with the CIA, shot the two National Guardsmen.

Trump has just gone nuts over anyone who's coming into the country, extrapolating from that one person to everybody who is seeking asylum here or is here already and is not yet a US citizen.

So it's all out of war on undocumented immigrants here, non US citizens here.

And it's going to go from there, you know, first they came for the immigrants, then they're going to come from the people supporting the immigrants, then they're going to come from anyone who's a dissident.

That's what Trump has laid down in some of his executive orders and his memorandums.

And we're just in the first phase of this.

The next phase is coming, though, and we should brace ourselves for that.

the number to call here, 608-879-8255.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

I'm seven in for John and Gordy this morning.

They'll be on this afternoon from two to five, so you can catch them there, but please come back.

We're going to be talking about some birds, and I want to hear what birds you've been seeing at your feeder.

And I'll give you a little advice on how to feed them in the winter.

We'll be right back.

Hey Matt Rothschild sitting in for John and Gordy this morning.

They'll be on this afternoon from two to five you can catch them there I'm here with Dom and we're talking birds for the next eight minutes or so I love that little song that Shawn Michael Dargan provided us so thanks again Shawn You can call and tell us what you're seeing at your bird feeder at 608-879-8255 We've got a text from Kelly and Madison who says I'm mad I saw my first purple finch at my feeder last week

Actually, I had a purple finch myself at my feeder over the weekend.

A purple finch was famously described by Roger Torrey Peterson, the great bird watcher and bird bookmaker.

His book was my Bible as a kid.

I was a geeky bird watcher.

He described a purple finch as a finch that was dipped in raspberry sauce.

So that's a cool one.

We've got Matt on the line, I think.

Let's hear what Matt's got to say.

Hey, Matt.

morning guys uh i didn't realize it was a bird subject so i'm quite ready for that but i could i could change it a bit

no birds politics whatever's on your mind man

okay well i was thinking about this uh immigration stuff and how it relates to the plans that the capitalists the bankers the people who are financing these data centers and everything and how it relates to

this technocratic future city idea, a kind of feudalism that Peter Thiel and Musk and these other tech people want.

And I think they just feel like they don't need the immigrants anymore.

They don't need the cheap labor because they're mass producing robots, right?

So I'm thinking it doesn't necessarily have to be all dystopian.

But do you think there's a chance that in this future we could have AI actually release some people from capitalism, where when it comes to preservation and protecting species and caring for our ecosystems and things and birds, that we could create new value out of people's time and put people to work

helping biologists and researchers preserve life because they won't have to be working the fields or work in the white collar jobs or the data jobs, the things that the AI will replace.

Do you think we could build that

future?

Sure, Matt from Middleton, thanks for the call.

We can build it, but the question is who's the we and who's...

call the shots.

And this has been the promise of every technological innovation starting at the Industrial Revolution that you could make work obsolete or give people a lot of free time that we don't have so we can enjoy our lives more.

And certainly the promise exists for that.

especially with AI, but who's going to be running AI?

And do the people who are running AI really want to take the gun away from people's heads that forced us to go to work?

Probably not.

And so I have my doubts because of how power is arranged in this country.

And the technocrats, big tech is really at the center of it.

I mean, they're right behind Donald Trump all the way right now.

So it's kind of crazy.

I've been reading a book about the technocrats and how they are

You know how they swung over to Trump just over the last couple years and what that's all about.

It's pretty horrifying.

So And if I can remember the name of that book, I'll get it to you after the break.

So You can join the conversation here by calling 608-879-8255.

I'm Matt Rothschild sitting in for John and Gordy here.

I wanted to talk about a few tips for bird feeding here in the winter

You know, especially if you're feeding suet to woodpeckers and other birds, birds need suet.

They need the fat, they need the protein.

In addition, just to hanging a cake of suet in one of those bird cages, it's good to cut up the suet cake and throw some of that suet on the ground because a lot of birds

like to eat off the ground.

Also those woodpeckers, especially the bigger ones, like the hairy woodpecker or the red-bellied woodpecker, they've got big beaks and they're pretty dominant and they don't want other birds to come up there while they're eating, so they're gonna hog it.

Are woodpeckers

all around Wisconsin?

Yeah, I had six woodpeckers at my feeders at once on Saturday.

Yeah, they're all, you know, there's the downy woodpecker, which is the small one, the hairy.

These are black and white woodpeckers, which is bigger.

The red-bellied woodpecker, which some people confuse it.

with a red-headed woodpecker.

And there's the flicker, which I had also with my feeder, oddly, because they should be migrating.

And then there's the giant pilliated woodpecker, which is always cool to see.

But yeah, throw bird seed on the ground, too.

I encourage people to do that.

Throw bird seed on the ground, especially when there's snow.

Shovel a little patch where you can throw some bird seed and some suet on the ground.

Another hint on the suet front.

What I do, because I don't want to feed the squirrels, I don't want the squirrels eating all my.

I mean, the squirrels have a reason to live, too.

But I don't want to eat them eating up the suet.

So I have suet that is full of hot pepper.

It's called hot pepper suet.

You can get it.

Wild birds unlimited.

It's probably farm and fleet, too.

Squirrels don't like pepper.

And so the pepper and the suet deters the squirrels from eating.

So if you're sick of that squirrel hanging onto your suet feeder, get a different kind of suet, one that's filled with hot pepper.

It's better than those things, those feeders that fling the squirrel off.

I don't have that kind of feeder.

I know people love that.

But yeah, get some suet that's got some hot pepper in it, chop it up, throw it on the ground, feed the birds in the winter, some extra suet they need it.

and they need black sunflower seed too.

And we'll have a lot of interesting birds coming down.

We have one bird sound.

I want to leave you with a Pine Grossbeak is coming into Wisconsin right now from Canada.

It's a pink and gray bird.

It's really cool.

It's a big bird.

So look out for the Pine Grossbeak.

Here's its song and we'll be right back with a Starbucks striker right here in the studio.

Hey, Matt Rothschild with you this morning.

John and Gordy are off this morning, but they're back this afternoon from two to five on the Civic Media Radio Network.

You're listening to John and Gordy in the morning here on WMDX right here in Madison.

The number to call is 608-879-8255.

That's 879-8255 if you want to join our conversation.

I'm thrilled to have in the studio right now with me, Allie Kerr.

She's one of the striking workers at Starbucks.

in Madison.

Allie, welcome to the show.

Hi, good morning.

Give us a little background.

How long you've been working at Starbucks?

I've been working at Starbucks for 10 years.

Wow.

And I've been at the store at State Street for eight of those 10 years.

And tell us the background on the strike, because I think people may have read somewhere over the last couple of years.

Union was formed.

And then what's happened?

Yeah, so over the course of the last like four or so years we've established a lot of union stores all around the country looking at about 650 union stores in America We have five union stores in Madison.

So we're really repping pretty hard here very proud of ourselves And we were able to do some contract negotiations with Starbucks in 2024 a lot of those talks were really Really positive a really collaborative

And then we got to what they call economics, which is like pay, benefits, things like that.

And the company started stonewalling a little bit.

The NLRB, the National Labor Relations Board, has decided that the company wasn't bargaining in good faith.

That's considered an unfair labor practice, which is part of why we're on strike right

now.

And what are the goals of the strike?

We would like the company to come back to the bargaining table in a meaningful way.

We don't really want to be on strike.

We would rather be working and have a contract.

So that's kind of the goal to get the company back to the table and to like get this done and to resolve those unfair labor practices.

So you all you all formed a union, but you have don't have your first contract yet.

Is that right?

That's right.

Yep.

And Starbucks is just being totally recalcitrant and stubborn and illegally not bargaining in good faith.

Unfortunately,

yeah.

And so the the strike

Uh, actually started a couple of weeks ago.

Is that right?

Yeah.

And how is it going

so far?

So great.

Um, I think I can't speak for other communities, but at least in Madison, we felt so much community support already.

Um, we went out on black Friday.

So we're coming up on a week soon here.

Um, and folks have been so kind.

It's, it's been really lovely in terms of movement from the company.

Haven't heard anything yet, um, but we're hopeful.

I saw the Francesca Hong joined the picket line.

She's, she's running for governor.

Yeah, she's amazing.

It's actually not the first time that we've worked with Fran too, so it's really nice to have her support as well.

And are you getting support from other elected officials or people in town that you can mention?

We've had some communication with Mark Pocan's office, but he has not been able to join us yet.

He's one that I would love to get out on the picket line at least once or twice, but I know he's a busy guy.

And what about Senator Tammy Baldwin if you reach out to her?

I don't have a good contact for her.

I should figure that out though.

Well, we should talk later.

I might get you a contact.

Yes, please.

And what is the spirit like of the striking workers?

I mean, going on strike is is not something you do casually.

Yeah, I think I think there's like some nervousness, right?

There's some excitement.

But by and large, the energy is really positive.

The people that we've had who have been able to come out and pick it have been really it's just been really exciting.

Lots of energy.

So one of the demands is just get your tail back to the bargaining table.

And another issue I imagine since you mentioned economics is pay.

Yes.

What is the pay situation?

So right now an average barista like starting at Starbucks is going to make $15 an hour And as I'm sure you're aware in Madison, that's not a tenable wage.

You can't

rent a one bedroom apartment and live your life on $15 an hour, even if you're working full time.

What is rent on a one bedroom apartment in Madison these days?

Oh my gosh.

I mean, it depends on over

$1,000.

Over $1,000.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you tend to get a studio for like $1,000 at this point.

Yeah.

Depends on where in the city though.

And $15 an hour for a month is going to get you less than probably $2,000 in your pocket

after taxes.

Yeah.

And so you're spending more than 50% than of your income.

on rent, which is the affordability crisis that we're facing in this city, in this state, and in this country.

Exactly, yeah.

And we're hoping that Starbucks can kind of do their part and help us bridge that gap, right?

Now, you mentioned that negotiations had been going well, and then all of a sudden they changed.

Why was there that change, do you think?

I think the beginning parts of negotiations went really well because we were dealing with a lot of, like, non-economics, so things like progressive discipline.

time and attendance, things like that, that don't cost the company any money.

So I think it was easier for them to have some wiggle room on those things.

But now that we're getting to something that's going to sort of impact the potential bottom line, it's becoming a little harder.

But ideologically, the founder of Starbucks was, and is, anti-union.

And it's been unspoken about that, isn't it?

Yeah, he seems to believe that we don't need a union and that the company treats workers well enough and workers should just take what they're given.

Which is what every owner and manager faces a union drive says almost.

Oh yeah.

And was it hard to sign people up for the union at the beginning?

I think every store goes through a different sort of journey to get there.

At my store, it was really easy.

We actually had someone from like upper management.

come in and like threaten people's jobs, said he was going to clean house, wanted to fire a bunch of people who were really important to our store.

And that's illegal too if you're firing people because they're trying to form a union against the law, but people, companies do it all the time and they only get a slap on the wrist once in a great while.

Exactly.

There's really no penalty for that.

But after that kind of threat came through.

people really were invested.

Like, oh, we need to save these people's jobs.

This is their livelihoods.

Um, between when we started talking about unionizing and when we actually filed, it was, I think about 10 days.

And what percentage of the workforce signed those union cards or agreed to join the union

at our store?

It was, I want to say it was like 85, 90.

Oh, that's huge.

Yeah.

It wasn't even close.

So tell me about the preparation for the strike.

Was there a strike vote?

And how was that taken?

And what was that like?

Yep, there was a strike vote and we were looking at a strike vote nationally to authorize like...

Yes, we're going to strike as a campaign.

And then locally, each store takes a strike vote of their own.

So there are some union shops in Madison that are not striking right now because taking a strike vote is such a democratic process.

It's really important that everyone is invested.

So we have three stores on strike right now.

State Street, the Capitol Square, and the Triverton Pike Store in Fitchburg.

And there's three Madison shops that are not on strike right

now.

What was the strike vote like at your State Street store?

Honestly, the biggest issue was like being able to like

Know people down to actually just sit down and take the vote people are very busy, right?

We have a store full of students who have like one or more jobs.

They're going to classes But overall very positive.

I mean people have questions about what that's gonna look like and what it means for them But very positive organizing conversations.

Yeah, well, that's what it means for them is loss of Your wage and so how can how long can you sustain going on strike do you think?

We're hoping to be out for a while

We don't have like a definite, definite end date.

But we're hoping we can get the company back to the table before we come back.

You've been there 10 years.

What's it been like working at Starbucks for 10 years?

The company has changed a lot over the course of 10 years.

Like there's a reason why I wouldn't have pushed to unionize 10 years ago.

It definitely felt like a more positive and supportive workplace.

And as the years have gone by, I think...

you know, all the changes in leadership, changing in CEOs and sort of that drive of the drumbeat of capitalism, right?

Growth, growth, growth has really squeezed the workers in a way that didn't use to happen.

Speaking of Ally Kerr, one of the striking Starbucks workers right here in Madison.

What do you tell customers who love their latte at Starbucks or in the summer?

I've been known to love a frappuccino.

What do you tell them right now?

And what do you tell them even after the strike is over, do they come back?

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think a lot of our customers at least at State Street are pretty news savvy.

So we haven't run into a ton of folks coming in like towards the picket line.

But what I would say to customers is like, this is an investment so that we have improved outcomes for everybody.

If you have workers that are better paid making your coffee, you're going to have a better time coming in and talking to them in the morning.

Right?

If you have a store that is more staffed, you're going to have a smaller wait time.

So hopefully by dealing with this sort of uncomfortable situation right now, we can invest and have like a better future moving forward.

Is your store closed on Safe Street or are there SCAB workers there?

As far as I'm aware, we haven't been SCAB yet.

So it's closed?

Yep.

And the other two stores in Madison where there's a strike, those stores are closed as well?

Yes.

So if that's going on at other places where the strike is going on, and how many stores nationwide are on strike?

Oh, I believe we're at about 150 now.

So that's going to pinch the company.

I mean, at

some point

they're going to feel that pinch.

Definitely.

And they should get back to the bargaining table.

It's the proper legal thing to do, but also it's going to be economic for them at some point.

Yeah.

And then what kind of support do the striking workers get from the union to subsidize lost wages?

So we do have like a national strike fund.

I'm not going to get into like the nuts and bolts of that.

But it makes up some of our wages, not all of them.

We also have a local strike fund here in Madison.

And like members of the community have been like donating, like even like the cost of your cup of coffee in the morning that you were missing, like that's a helpful donation.

And

how do people donate?

Where can they go to help you?

We have an Instagram account.

That's wiswoo.

That's W-I-S-S-W-U.

and there's like a donation link on one of our posts there for our strike fund.

Is for old folks who aren't on Instagram or anyone else who's listening who's not on Instagram, is there another way they can send just some money and help you out?

Well, the South Central Federation of Labor is sponsoring a screening of billionaires, sorry, baristas versus billionaires.

Next week, I think the 10th and the 11th, we're going to have like a little donation jar there as well.

Oh, that's great.

That's great.

Well, Allie Kerr is a striking worker at the State Street Starbucks store here in Madison We wish you all the best in your efforts and thanks so much for coming by the studio and joining us in this conversation It's just a terrific action.

I urge all of our

Listeners, do not go to Starbucks now while there is a strike on.

Do not be a strike breaker.

You can get coffee somewhere else.

You can also make your own coffee.

You don't need to go to Starbucks right now when there's a strike on.

So please have some solidarity with Ally and the other striking workers here in Madison and across the country.

Any last words for us?

Just thank you so much for your time and for this opportunity and for folks who are looking for like a union cup of coffee.

Most Starbucks in town that are closed have a collectivo super close by and they are a union shop They have a union contract

and that's been a successful union drive collectivo, which is based in Milwaukee and it's now got a lot of places in Madison a successful Union coffee shop hasn't caused the coffee shop to go under they're doing collectivo is doing fine even with a union shop

I've heard they're doing great even with a union probably

better with a union shop so

Drink Union, go to Collectivo right now.

Don't go to Starbucks.

Ellie Kerr, thanks so much for being on the show.

Thank you.

Well, that was wonderful, wasn't it?

I mean, we have actions that...

you can support right here in Madison, Wisconsin, if you believe, in labor rights and human rights and civil rights.

Labor rights are crucial to our democracy.

We need better laws to protect unionizing, and we need those laws enforced, and they're not being enforced right now.

That's why Starbucks can get away with a violation of the National Labor Relations Board and have nothing happen to it.

I mean, there are laws on the books, there are penalties on the books, and they don't mean jack.

but they're not enforced.

So we need to enforce and strengthen our labor laws.

We need to support our striking workers at Starbucks.

Do not go to Starbucks while there is a strike in place.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

You're listening to the John and Gordy show and we'll be right back right after the break.

So stay tuned.

Hey Matt Rothschild with you this morning John and Gordy are off this morning because they're working from two to five this afternoon You can catch them then all across the civic media radio network.

I'm happy to be here with Dom here on WMDX in Madison the full number for you to call or text is 608-879-8255 I really like to Ali Kerr from the Starbucks Union here in town

really letting us know what it's like to be fighting a giant company like Starbucks and trying to make ends meet on the poultry wages they pay over there.

And they're not even bargaining in good faith.

So that's not a shocker, but it's disgusting.

We had a text in the line against 608-879-8255 from Mark in Prairie to Sex.

Speaking of unions, Mark says, when I was a kid in the 60s growing up,

In Superior, even the bag boys had a union, and his uncle Ted worked at the national tea grocery store, and there was a union there.

And his mom and his sister did some of the grocery shopping there.

What people forget is in the 1950s, there were about 33% of Americans worked in unions, and that's down to under 10% right now.

And here in Wisconsin, unionization got shaved in half by Scott Walker, Act 10.

What a disgusting thing that was dropping a bomb here on the people of Wisconsin.

And so I think the union movement is on the rise now, though.

And we're seeing that with some of the organizing at Starbucks.

We're seeing it with some of the organizing at SEIU.

We also got a text from Chuckster.

The Chuckster in Racine who said, uh, Una Paloma Blanca is a great top of the morning bird song and addresses the loss of freedoms that's very relevant these days.

Appreciate the text.

Yeah, back to birds.

I mean, it's a crazy time because there's right now an odd number of kind of spring and summer birds that have been sighted in Wisconsin, including of all things a summer tanager, which is a totally red bird in Milwaukee.

Someone else saw a rose-breasted growth speak somewhere in Wisconsin and a Baltimore Oriole.

Those are usually at our feeders in May and maybe early June and should have gone south a long time ago.

But that's what happens sometimes.

Birds will hang around.

What I was seeing at my feeders down, which was really fun, was, you know, all these downy and hairy woodpeckers, tiny little nut hatches, brown creepers, which is kind of like a nut hatch, kind of cute brown and white, tiny little bird that climbs up and down.

And it was eating the suet, too.

It loved the suet.

And then I had two kinds of Rens.

I had a Carolina Renn and a...

Winter ran at the feeder and of course a lot of doves and sparrows and chickadees, so I love the winter for the winter birds because you know They can't find a lot of food and it's snowstorm if you can clear the snow and put some seed down They'll come all a whole bunch of them

all in that little space.

You have you have

Every bird at your bird feeder.

That's what yeah, almost every winter bird

nothing unusual Yeah, I'm waiting for the northern finches to come down like that pine growth speak you played earlier or there are other birds people are seeing red poles pine siskins These are little finches.

I got mark on the line.

Let's listen to mark mark all of all of Civic media wants to know whether you got your buck yet or not

No, I didn't get a deer this year and that's okay.

You know, it's just enjoyable getting out in the woods there that

On Sunday when I was walking in to put out the last of some feed for, you know, the birds and for the deer that I walked up and I came within feet of a rough grouse.

Oh, isn't that lucky?

It was just sitting on, it was just sitting on a, on a downed, downed piece of brush and, you know, nobody must be hunting them anymore.

Cause this guy was just not, not concerned at all about seeing me.

They finally flew off.

You

know, the population mark of rough grouse, they have a real ebb and flow.

Yeah, they um, I mean years ago.

I can remember growing up in an earlier year season.

This has got to be you know, maybe 40 years ago that uh, I was sitting out in my tree, you know my small stand and the gross were feeding on the buds on the aspen that were around that I watched them for a while

and when they flap their wings they make that sound like a lot more start

Yeah, that's how you put it.

Last time we talked a lawnmower starting.

That's an incredible sound.

I've been in the woods up north, uh, where there are a lot of rough grouse and you hear you hear the bird before you see it.

At least that's in my case.

During the childhood opener, you know, when I, you know, fishing, hunting up north or fishing up north there, um, they would always see them in the springtime.

It was interesting driving back yesterday from up by superior that crossing the St.

Croix River, the river was just covered with, uh,

the diver ducks and one big flock of bluebills was on it right on the river.

You could see right from the bridge there and some of the other rivers that were still open, you know, they were covered with the Northern waterfall finally coming down because it'd been so warm up until just the last few days that when the bottom finally dropped out that the snow came on down and stuff was starting to freeze over, but the ducks, the diver ducks were finally coming through.

And you can see some of those diving ducks at picnic point here on Lake Mendota.

There were some, a flock of buffalo heads there the other day, which is a beautiful duck, actually my wife's favorite.

It's a duck with a lot of white on it, white in the face and black and white on the body and kind of shiny purple too.

And you think it's just black, you know, because I'm a duck kind of, I've gotten, you know, buffalo heads in the past, but it's just iridescent.

They're, you know, I appreciate them more.

Now I just float and roll and go out there, swim and roll, but they're, it's not just black, it's just this iridescent with

you know reflections of purple and you know that

just

just they're they're a beautiful duck yeah if

you haven't seen one in your listening you should look up Bufflehead it's a really gorgeous diving duck mark from the sack always a pleasure

hearing your voice and talking birds with you.

I could talk birds all day, but I just want to give you an idea of what's coming up on the show.

I'm Matt Rothschild here, subbing in for John and Gordy.

At 7.05, we're going to have Joanna Bennett on the show.

She is running for the assembly, and then at 7.30, people are surprised when David Marinus.

So quite a fun show.

number to call, 608-879-8255.

Call her text and we can continue wherever you want to go, but first we're going to talk with Joanna Bennett, running for the assembly, running for Francesca Hong's seat, though she doesn't own the seat.

She's just sitting there right now.

You're listening at WMDX.

I'm Matt Rothschild here with Dom and we'll be right back.

Yeah, we're doing it live.

I'm Matt Rothschild here with Dom.

John and Gordy are off this morning They'll be back this afternoon though from two to five all across the civic media radio network so you can catch them then Right now on the civic media radio network.

There's a big promo.

It's our grown-up gift list text to win a multi-state contest It's your daily chance to win 200 bucks and every entry puts you into our three grand prize drawings for a brand new

Snowblower really need it.

We're having old fashioned December here in Madison.

Oh, yeah.

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We won't need that for a while.

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Find your station WMDX and use the text button to send the keyword chance for your chance to win in this multi-state contest.

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Find WMDX on the Civic Media app and use the text button to send that keyword chance right now.

You'll have until the end of the hour to get in.

Good luck.

And downloading the app on Civic Media is really easy.

You know, I've only downloaded, this is a confession, two apps on my phone.

One is the Civic Media app and the other is the Merlin app from the Cornell

You've

only downloaded two

apps.

Those are my two apps.

Those are the two apps that I use on

my phone.

I could say I probably have about 80 apps

and it's all just

stuff I haven't touched in probably four years.

Well, two.

Two.

That's showing my age there.

It's the only two I need.

Tell me what birds are outside.

And then I like to listen to Jane McNair show on the Civic Media app.

And if I'm around somewhere else and I need to tune in and I'm out of range of Civic Media, I can get it that way.

You can also always listen to Civic Media at civicmedia.us on your computer.

Streaming live around the world.

And you can join our conversation here at 608-879-8255.

That's 879-8255.

Call her text and we'll get you on.

You can talk.

about birds, you can talk about politics, anything that you'd like.

We'll get you on and we'll have some conversation because that's what we like to do at WMDX and on the Civic Media Radio Network, which is

just have

conversation.

It's not a quiz.

It's not a lecture hall.

It's a conversation.

But what I wanted to do now while we're waiting for our guests

is talk about the big story that is in the news, which is this story about Hegzeff and the war crime that he and his admiral appear to have committed in the striking of this boat in September, especially the striking of the two people who were shipwrecked after the first strike.

I wanted to read a little bit from the Washington Post on this.

Check out this headline.

Hegzeff

Hegseth with White House help tries to distance himself from boat strike fallout.

Officials in Congress and the Pentagon said Monday they're increasingly concerned that the Trump administration intends to scapegoat the military officer who directed U.S.

forces to kill two survivors of a targeted strike on suspected drug smugglers.

Of course we don't know if they are drug smugglers.

In Latin America as lawmakers made

moves to investigate whether the attack constituted a war crime.

The Washington Post reported exclusively Friday that Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth gave a spoken order to kill the entire crew, to kill everyone on this vessel that was allegedly bringing narcotics into the Caribbean Sea.

It was the first of 20 such strikes that the administration has been waging since early September.

When two survivors were detected, the military commander overseeing the operation, Admiral Frank Bradley directed another strike to comply with Hexeth's order that no one be left alive.

People with direct knowledge of the matter told the post.

Karen Levitt, the White House press secretary acknowledged Monday that Hexeth had authorized Bradley to conduct the strikes.

Bradley, she added, worked well within his authority and the law.

I don't know where she gets off saying that.

direct to the engagement.

Her scripted remarks at a news briefing elicited a furious backlash within the Defense Department where officials describe feeling angry at the uncertainty over whether Hegseth would take responsibility for his alleged role in the operation or leave the military and civilian staff under him to face the consequences.

This is Protect Pete BS, one military official said.

And then, of course, Hegseth

writing on social media yesterday evening, also kind of threw the admiral under the bus.

He said he stands by the admiral quote and the combat decisions he has made.

So this is not exactly standing by your man, not exactly having your man's back when you are throwing a knife into that man's back.

So I'm interested in what our listeners

I have to say about that, the phone number is 608-879-8255.

This is kind of lawlessness squared.

It's a lawless act by Trump and Hague Seth to be attacking these boats in the Caribbean.

They haven't declared war against the United States, these little boats that are being attacked by the biggest military in the world.

And the fact that the Admiral said leave no survivors, right?

Well, that's what Hexas order was, leave no survivors, kill everyone.

It was the quote that the Washington Post unearthed on Friday and it's exclusive reporting, which it may get a Pulitzer Prize for.

And so, yeah.

Uh, the admiral seemed to be just following orders, but of course we remember from the Nuremberg trials that just following orders is not an excuse either.

I mean, I do think the admiral was on the hook for a war crime here.

And I think egg stuff is on the hook too.

And I think Donald Trump is on the hook too.

But the question for us throughout this Trump administration is, are we going to ever get accountability?

Is there going to be accountability for Donald Trump?

This U S Supreme court gave him immunity.

Maybe the international criminal court at the egg.

won't be so inclined.

We've got a call from one of the smartest callers we ever get here on Civic Media, Joe in Madison.

So let's hear what Joe has to say.

Well, I'm not sure about that.

It's quite an esteemed crew that you put me with.

They're very brilliant people calling every day.

Great show.

Really interesting topics.

And thank you for the interview with a striker from Starbucks.

That was very fascinating.

You know, first off, I do want to say you've been putting bird calls within the caller's call, and you could do a Cooper's Hawk for me if you wanted to, because they're still sticking around this winter, and I just absolutely adore

them.

Yeah,

and the

Cooper's Hawk will go grab birds off your bird feeder if you're not careful.

They like the

backyard birds.

Yeah, everybody's got to eat.

You know, everybody needs breakfast, I guess, but yeah.

I think it's so important that you're bringing up this topic because this situation with HECSF is one of just...

an absolute mobster approach to world politics, and it does not win us friends in the end.

If people realize that we are in a situation where we are firing on boats to the point of people dying, what you're supposed to do is call a Coast Guard, have them come to the side, and if they've got drugs, you interdict them.

You know, this doesn't do anything.

This doesn't stop it.

I mean, it's absolutely ludicrous.

What it does is make

People, they can feel like a manly man because, oh, I blew this boat out of the water.

This does not move international politics.

This does not stop the overall flow of drugs into our country.

And I just think I'm really glad that you brought this topic up.

You did mention that you're going to be interviewing David Marinus later in the show.

Is that correct?

Yeah.

That's what we're planning on at the 730 hour.

Maybe I'll come on a little early, even who knows.

But yeah, I'd love

to talk with

him.

Yeah, I did want to say, one of the things that has so impressed me about him, the incredible author written on wonderful things, I did hope that you can bring up the fact of his biography on Vince Lombardi, which would be a lovely Christmas present for a lot of people within the state, because it gives such an incredible picture of this man who not only was a great football coach, but was one of the first football coaches who absolutely led the way on integrating the NFL

for African-American people, but also for gay people.

And he is the child of Italian immigrants.

So where you started your show, looking at the whole situation of immigrants into this country, there's somebody that really set the world on fire with them in the world of football.

And he did it by insisting, absolutely insisting that his team be integrated and that the city around him accepted the black players who were part of the team.

So I hope that can be touched on because it's such an important part of our state's history.

And we're so proud of having Vince Lombardi as one of our state's heroes.

Thanks a lot.

Appreciate it, Matt.

Thanks, Joe.

Always appreciate the call.

Yeah.

I wanted to emphasize Dave Marinus's biography on Vince Lombardi, where he talks about, just as Joe was saying, Vince Lombardi, when he got to Green Bay, integrated the team, he would not have anyone on the team.

who issued any bigoted comment against Black people, against Jews, or against Italian Americans.

He was an Italian American.

He said, if I hear one word like that from any of you, you're off the team.

Not only that, he went to all the bars and restaurants in Green Bay and said, if you're not going to serve Black people, we are not coming to your place of business.

So he did more than anyone.

to integrate Green Bay.

It's really a great story that David Marinus on Earth, and Joe reminds us of Vince Lombardi fought for civil rights in a very forceful, private way, but he really made change happen.

And his players admired him greatly for that.

So yeah, we'll be speaking with David Marinus after the 730 break, I think.

But Joe is also correct about her initial comment on...

what Trump and Hexeth are doing, what Joe called the mobster approach.

Actually, that could describe what Trump is doing generally.

I mean, he's running the government like he is the don of a huge mobster family.

And it's not helping us in the long term.

Joe said it certainly isn't.

This doesn't help America's reputation.

It's not solving the problem.

The idea, as Joe said, that we're acting like manly men by blowing these ships up.

I mean, how hard is that for the Navy or for the Air Force to go knock out a tiny little boat in the Caribbean?

And yet they show it like it's this great feat of technology when they show the videos.

It's just ridiculous.

But it also is there's continuity and there's discontinuity.

The discontinuity is Trump's total mobster approach about everything.

The continuity is with the idea that the US government can do whatever the hell it wants in Latin America, which has been here since the Monroe Doctrine, and today is the anniversary of the Monroe Doctrine.

So we have a history, and we shouldn't blind ourselves to the history of illegal US interventions throughout Latin America for the last 100 and...

40 years Just because Donald Trump is doing we can't say just this is Donald Trump And it's totally not in keeping with what other US presidents have done We need to face facts US presidents have violated international law in other countries sovereignty throughout Latin America for more than a century and it's it's really a not pretty history we saw it in the 80s in Central America with the

assistance to the Contras in Nicaragua.

We're fighting the government in Nicaragua.

We saw in El Salvador.

We saw in Guatemala.

We saw it in Chile in the 70s.

We've seen it throughout U.S.

history.

So there is continuity.

There also is discontinuity in this mobster.

style government that we have in Donald Trump.

Love to have your comments on this after the break.

I'm Matt Rothschild, sitting in here for John and Gordy, who will be back this afternoon from two to five.

You can join the conversation as Joe and Mark have at 608-879-8255.

That's 879-8255 right here on WMDX.

We'll be right back.

Hey, it is dying to get better Matt Rothschild here Submit in for John and Gordy who will be back this afternoon from two to five all across the civic media radio network I'm here with producer extraordinaire Dom here on WMDX Dom and I worked together on a podcast I do called Wisconsin forward where I was able to Interview every one of the Democratic candidates running for governor so far.

It was fun to have them parade on through here and

People can find that at civicmedia.us or just Google my name.

That's Matt Rothschild at Wisconsin Forward Podcast and you can find that conversation.

I enjoyed that.

Reflecting back on that, is there any candidate or any interview that stood up for you as something that caught your attention?

Again, it was probably Francesca Hong, honestly.

I would say it was the...

First person that came to my mind.

I really did like David Crowley as well.

I really liked him.

I loved the way that he perceived himself and came in here and talked very fluently.

Yeah, David Crowley was great.

Francesca Hong is wonderful.

She's running as a Democratic Socialist, proud Democratic Socialist to be running for governor.

And it is a kind of a Democratic Socialist moment here with Mamdani in New York.

Sometimes when capitalism doesn't work at all, as we're seeing with the Starbucks strikers, people look for a different way of arranging the economy and wonder why people can't live a decent life even if they're working 40 hours a week.

I mean, it's ridiculous.

At Starbucks, paying people $15 an hour in Madison, Wisconsin, which doesn't cover half your

rent.

I was very impressed with 150.

I think already 150 Starbucks are on strike is what she said.

And that's very impressive stuff.

It's hard to do.

And at some point, she was right.

They're going to take notice.

And they're going to.

I

hope so.

I

mean, they may stiff arm them.

This is what union-busting firms, huge corporations have done from the beginning of the labor movement.

They just stiff arm people.

It used to be they would crudely.

you know, kill, you know, union organizers back in the early part of the 20th century.

Now they just have their lawyers come in and tell people you're going to be fired or, you know, you're going to be docked if you join the union, which is intimidation that's illegal.

But one corporation after another keeps doing it.

Starbucks was cited by the National Labor Relations Board as the striking Starbucks worker, Ali Kerr, told us in the last hour, cited for an illegal labor action, anti-union action, and yet, you know, it's not bringing them back to the table.

That's because the penalties in the law are almost non-existent.

And so if you're just worried about your bottom line, you can just say, well,

I don't care if I'm violating the law.

You know, what are you going to do for me?

You know, fire me a thousand, you know, find me a thousand dollars.

What's that going to do to giant Starbucks?

But again, if you're listening and you like to go to Starbucks, don't go to Starbucks right now.

There's a strike out there.

There's just there are striking workers in Madison.

Do not.

Go to any Starbucks.

There are a couple Starbucks that aren't on strike in Madison, but don't go to those either.

Try to honor the strike.

Don't be a strike breaker.

There are unionized coffee shops like Collectivo, Collectivo here in Madison and in Milwaukee and all across Wisconsin.

Go to Collectivo.

Enjoy your coffee there.

And when the strike is over,

when the union's been recognized by Starbucks, when they get their first contract, feel free to go back to Starbucks.

But right now, while there's a strike on you, you can't go to Starbucks and you'll live without your Starbucks coffee.

And collectivo coffee is really good too.

I even have, there's food there, there's pastries, and I've been there quite a few times and I've loved it.

Yeah, yeah, I've gone to the one right there on the square, especially in the summer when the windows open.

It's a wonderful spot.

There's a colotevo coffee on Monroe Street.

I've been to also.

There's one off of University Avenue near Shorewood, which I've been to.

So yeah, there are plenty of places to go and there are other local.

Coffee shops that aren't union busting anti labor coffee shops that you can go to as well But if you want a union cup of coffee go to colectivo certainly do not go to Starbucks That was the message that we got from Ali Kerr and you know the neat thing about getting guests on this show is sometimes You don't know how hard it's gonna be and I just found Ali Kerr's name in some news story I was looking to get a Starbucks striker on here and I couldn't find your phone number.

I just found her on Facebook Center of

direct message on Facebook, and she showed up.

And so that was awesome.

I really appreciate Allie Kerr answering the bell and coming on.

We're supposed to have Dave Marinus on after the break.

I'd love to have him on.

His former Washington Post reporter and editor has twice won the Pulitzer Prize.

His books are amazing.

The one that probably affected me most was his book on Vietnam.

They marched into sunlight.

It's an incredible book about what was going on in the United States in 1967, what was going on in Vietnam in 1967 at the same time, but the Vietnam story about how a freshly minted commanding officer goes to Vietnam and leads his soldiers blindly, foolishly into an ambush is one of the most harrowing tales I ever read.

about Vietnam and it really brings you immediately into that horrible scene.

So it was a very powerful book, looking forward to talking to David Marinus about what he makes of the Trump administration.

He also has written biographies on Obama.

And Bill Clinton, he studied politics.

And I saw him at a rally here in Madison on State Street that David Cooper, the former sheriff had in August, recaptured the Cross rally.

And I admired him from attending the protest and made a note in my mind the next time I have an opportunity, I'll try to get David Marinus.

on radio.

So you're listening to the John and Gordy show.

I'm not John or Gordy.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

I'm here with Dom.

John and Gordy will be back this afternoon from two to five all across the Civic Media Radio Network.

Meantime, you're listening to me and Dom here on WMDX Madison.

We'll be right back.

Hey Matt Rothschild with you on the John Gordy show John Gordy aren't here as you probably gathered by now They will be on from two to five all across the civic media radio network this afternoon The number to call here is six oh eight eight seven nine eight two five five.

That's eight seven nine eighty two fifty five here at WMDX and now I am delighted to have as my guest David Marinus David Marinus is the winner of two Pulitzer prizes

among a raft of other prizes.

He's the author of more than a dozen books, including biographies of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, as well as Jim Thorpe, Roberto Clemente, and Vince Lombardi.

He also wrote one of the best Vietnam books of all time, as I was talking about before the break, they merged into sunlight.

You know, one of the cool things about living here in Madison, Wisconsin, is that there are all these amazing accomplished folks right here in our midst and

One of the most accomplished is Dave Marinus.

So welcome to the program, Dave.

Is he here?

He seems to be bounced out.

So give me a couple minutes and he should be back in here.

Okay.

Well, we had just seen him.

So I'm sure we can get him back.

So he is writing a new book also on the first black American boxer to be heavyweight champion.

Jack Johnson and so we're gonna be looking to see what he says about that too.

So that's interesting Meanwhile, we have a call from Charles.

We'll take the call from Charles and then we'll get Dave Marinus on Charles, what's

on your mind?

Hey, good morning, man.

I'm I wanted to go back to the hole blowing up of the boats Sure, my question this whole entire time is why haven't the rest of the world leaders or court whoever

So like for Putin and Netanyahu, they're not allowed to go certain places because of crimes that they've committed.

Why hasn't that been done to the Trump administration?

And then second of all, if you're claiming that these are drug boats, normally if I happen to go on the internet and look at Channel 6 News or whatever and see that there's been a drug bust somewhere in Wisconsin,

that, that is the broadcast on channel six news.

They will usually have the spread of the drugs, the guns that they've collected, the money.

We're, we're not saying any of that.

These people expect us to just take their word that these are drug running boats.

Correct.

Charles from Milwaukee.

That's a great call and a great point.

Um, there is no evidence here.

There is no trial.

This is just, uh, just assassination.

It's just bumping people off.

And it's disgusting.

You're right.

I mean, Trump and Hegseth need to be designated as war criminals.

If they're designated by the International Criminal Court as war criminals, then other countries could grab them.

Of course, who's going to do that?

But at some point, there needs to be some accountability, Charles, from Milwaukee.

So thanks for the call.

We do have Dave Marinus with us.

How are you doing, David?

Hello, David.

It looks like he froze.

All right.

It looks like he froze.

We're still working on it.

Technical difficulties.

It's too bad, because I have them right here in my sights, and I look forward to carrying on that conversation.

Here he is.

I think he's here.

Let's see.

All

right.

He's trying to be here.

Am I?

Yeah, that's good.

That's good, David.

Let's

get going.

I am sorry.

I'm such a techno idiot.

You and me both.

Don't worry about it.

So let's get right to it.

What do you make of Donald Trump and what he's doing to our country?

Well, why is that a loaded question?

I think he's the worst president in American history, which is saying something and If you've had to pick the worst 20 people in America who aren't mass murderers Donald Trump would be one of them

So what he's doing to our country is very dangerous.

I was an optimist my whole life until he came along.

I am starting after a year of real pessimism, who's starting to believe again that this can be overcome.

And what makes you believe that we're gonna get through

this?

the combination, not so much what's happening with Epstein and the way that sort of split MAGA, but a combination of that, the fact that he is a lame duck and Republicans in Congress are starting to see that, but mostly I think it has to do with the overreach in Venezuela.

I think that really

You never know what's going to break this whole dark tragedy.

And there were so many times before when I thought or millions of people thought it might be the end of it.

But I'm starting to see that this combination of events is really having an effect.

It's still possible though in Venezuela that he's just going to go in and take out Maduro and just

Invade do you see him doing that?

Oh, no, I'm not saying I'm not saying that is a matter of fact as the more that His power diminishes the more dangerous.

He'll be right.

I agree with that.

He very well could and invade Venezuela But I think Congress is starting to wake up which You know the Republicans could have stopped this at any moment for the last 10 years and didn't

I hold Mitch McConnell primarily responsible.

I mean, he had a moment of historical reckoning there at the second impeachment trial, and he blinked.

He struck out.

He didn't rise to the moment.

Do you have any clue about what happened there?

Well, I don't, but I did happen to see him at a book party later.

Um, one of my friends wrote a biography of him and McConnell showed up and walked around the room muttering I don't recognize my Republican party anymore.

Really?

Well, he was he was a big part of it.

Of course he was, you know, he helped create that Republican party.

Wow.

And he could have rid us of this awful person if he had wanted

to.

There's so many things that could have read.

I mean, you know,

It's it's sort of fruitless to play the blame game, but boy So could Mira Garland if he had acted faster

and John Roberts could have helped instead of her

to

Let's just shift gears for a second and talk about what's happening to to journalism You are at the Washington Post forever.

Of course, they had this great story on egg set so it's still a functioning paper with functioning reporters, but they

uh, you know, dropping their editorial to endorse Kamala Harris at the last minute because the Bezos didn't want it to happen, uh, was just a signal that, uh, you know, the mainstream, uh, many, many members, the mainstream media, we're going to bow to Donald Trump and journalism has just been under fire from all forces, uh, for a long time.

So how do you assess where we are in, in journalism right now?

Well, what happened to the newspaper makes me sick, made me, you know, stop working for it.

I said I would never write again for the post as long as Jeff Bezos owned it.

You know, there's this whole argument that I find specious that, well, he's the owner, he can do whatever he wants.

In one sense, that's true, but I think of newspapers as public trusts.

And I think that he violated the public trust of the Washington Post.

I still have, you know, most of my friends have left, but there's still wonderful reporters working there.

I mean, that story on Hegseth was done by Eleanor, one of my closest associates there, and wrote a book about El Gore with me.

And she's great.

And there's so many people that are still doing great work, but...

But the opinion page, the editorial page is repulsive.

It's not just what Bezos ordered, but now the new editorial editor, some young guy who is a slaming right winger, had an editorial, our opinion column the other day, basically,

blaming the Democrats for trying to teach Trump and for going after him.

And they had one defending the one person in Congress who voted not to release the Epstein files.

They were praising

that

person.

I mean, so that is a huge sea change there at the post.

Oh, it totally is.

Hey, one

of

our

one of our

go ahead, David.

Well, I was going to say, you know, I mean,

It's kind of an upside down world when the Wall Street Journal has stronger editorials in the Washington Post.

We have one of our regular listeners here, Larry from Deerfield, who saw that I was going to have you on.

He said, Matt, you've got to ask David Marinus about the book he's working on right now, Jack Johnson, the first black heavyweight champion in the world.

So why don't you just tell us a little bit about that project?

Well, I'm about halfway into it It's an incredible story and it's really you know like my other sports books in quotes a Lombardi Clemente and Thorpe I chose figures who transcend sports and tell more about American culture and sociology and history and Jack Johnson is Such an example of that he was

the first black heavyweight champion.

He won it in 1908 and several years later after he had defeated the quote unquote great white hope, Jim Jeffries.

The US government went after him in a concerted racist prosecution for violating the Man Act, transporting white women across state lines.

He did have a lot of white girlfriends and prostitutes but the whole effort to get him was purely based on the fact that he was considered dangerous because of his unwillingness to bow to the norms of white society.

So, you know, it's been an incredible journey for me to report this book and I've started to write it.

The first chapter is about

the play on The Great White Hope, which Muhammad Ali went to see three times, and he told the cast afterwards, I am Jack Johnson.

In other words, two black men who refused to conform to the white society, who were sent into exile, Johnson literally went to Europe for eight years to escape.

and Muhammad Ali, who was in exile because he refused to fight in Vietnam.

David Marinus, civil rights is a theme that runs through almost all your books.

Tell me why that grabs you so hard.

You know, man, it's in my blood.

My father was the commander of an all black unit in World War II.

and really sort of inculcated into all of his children the need for social racial justice.

So, you know, it's not just with me.

It's my son writes books about the same thing.

And it's just part of emeritus trait that...

that is as deep as anything in us.

Yeah, I've got a two.

My folks were involved in the civil rights fair housing movement in the late 1960s in North Shore, Chicago.

So it stays with us.

I wish we had all day to talk.

David Marinus, Pulitzer Prize winner.

Thanks for being on the show.

Let's get together again sometime.

That'd be great, man.

And thank you for having

me.

You're quite welcome.

We'll be right

back.

Coffee, but not Starbucks coffee.

There's a strike on here in Madison across the country.

We had a striker here in the studio last hour, Ali Kerr, explaining why you shouldn't go to Starbucks.

Go to Collectivo or another local coffee shop.

Collectivo is unionized, so if you want unionized coffee, go there.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

I'm subbing in for John and Gordy.

They will be on this afternoon from two to five all across the Civic Media Radio Network.

You're listening to WMDX, part of the Civic Media Radio Network, right here in Madison, Wisconsin.

The phone number to call or text if you want to jump in here in the last six minutes, 608-879-8255.

Tell me what you thought of.

David Marinus, what a tremendous treasure to have here in Madison, one of the best non-fiction writers in the country, winner of two Pulitzer Prizes.

His book on Vietnam, they marched in the sunlight.

indispensable.

His book on Vince Lombardi, that Joe Caller from Madison mentions a lot, a really important book, especially for the emphasis on Vince Lombardi's otherwise unknown story until David Marinus on Earth did about Vince Lombardi's role in integrating Green Bay and standing up for civil rights.

Quite a story, quite a guy.

I wanted to let you know that there's still this