Birds, Ballots, and Beagles (Hour 1)

It's the John and Gordy show.

Do you know what this means?

Wouldn't you like to know weather, boy?

You're pretty high and far out, aren't you?

What kind of kick are you on, son?

You're

no good bastard.

Your show

sucks.

What made me think this was a good day to stop drinking?

What if you want coffee?

Coffee.

Coffee.

Black coffee.

Coffee.

Coffee.

They warned us about people like you!

What a load of crap.

Thank you, sir.

May I have another?

We'll do it live!

On

92.7 FM WMDX.

Take it away boys.

Good morning.

Welcome to the John and Gordy show.

The guys are off this morning, but they'll be back this afternoon from two to five and they'll be back tomorrow morning at their regular spot.

You got me though, Matt Rothschild.

I'm here with producer Dom and we've got a great show for you.

We've got Deborah Cronmiller at 635.

She's the executive director of the League of Women Voters of Wisconsin and then a little later in that half hour Lisa Bernard at the Humane Society here in Dane County and then of course 705.

Jim Santel, the best commentator on legal affairs that I've ever heard.

Civic media is lucky to have him.

And then at 730 we're gonna

shift a little bit to bird talk.

We have a director of the Wings Raptor Center in Cambridge, Kathleen Dyneline joining us.

And then we'll wrap up with a poem by the former poet laureate of the United States, Joy Harjo, a great poem about the centrality of the kitchen table.

around Thanksgiving and anytime really.

So it's gonna be a fun show.

Please join the conversation with a call or a text at 608-879-8255.

That's 608-879-8255.

Dom,

how are you doing this morning?

I'm doing pretty good.

I'm excited to hear Mark call in because I know he's right now.

deer hunting, and I know he's up on top of a tree right now.

He's probably going to be looking at the birds.

I have a feeling that he's going to be calling.

I hope so

too.

We talked to him yesterday afternoon, and he was waiting for that buck to come into range.

Let's see if he got the buck today.

We're looking forward to hearing from Mark and from any of you about what you're seeing, whether you're getting your deer, what birds you're looking at.

What you're thinking about politics, of course, because we like to talk about politics here.

Politics and birds and a little bit of poetry is what I like to bring you.

Every time I have the opportunity to guest host and I'm very grateful always.

for having that opportunity.

I love live radio.

I love the mission of civic media to bring civil dialogue and pro-democracy radio and local radio across the state of Wisconsin.

And so that's what we're trying to do.

I should warn you, if you're just getting up, it is a really foggy morning.

I'm wondering down what the fog was like here.

In downtown Madison when you're coming to work.

Yeah, I know I

went to I always come to work around 5 o'clock 5 a.m.. And I go on John Nolan Drive and you cannot see anything You just cannot I thought I was gonna run off the road Matt I honestly did because it's really hard to see you know You can't see anything out there.

It's just

right.

I mean once you're in the city itself It's okay.

The main streets are fine

But you know, I came in from the south myself.

I don't go John Nolan anymore because

the

construction there.

So I come in on 14 and Park Street 14 merging from Oregon on to 14 and driving on the country roads to get to 14.

It was like driving through a field of cotton candy.

I mean, it was so thick out there this morning.

So my advice is go slow.

Be careful.

Watch for the other driver.

watch the lines, that's how I stay down the road just looking at the white lines, but it is very thick out there, thick and foggy.

So that's my weather bulletin for you and my safe driving bulletin for you.

We've got Mark on the line already, isn't there?

Wonderful.

Hey, Mark, how are you?

Doing okay.

I haven't had it out just yet, but

Yesterday afternoon after I talked to you guys, I saw a brown creeper, which I haven't seen for a few years.

Yeah, I've got a brown creeper at my feeder.

It likes to sew at a brown creeper.

For those of you who don't know, it's kind of an ugly name.

But this is a tiny little brown and white bird that is like a nut hatch, except it climbs up instead of down and backwards.

But it's, yeah, it's smaller, even a little smaller than the nut hatch with a tiny little curved bill.

Very cute little bird that comes around, usually in November and December.

That's one of my favorites that my other mother the other property we had at one time that I used to have them there But this this sit down this property.

I don't see them very often So it's pretty pleased because it's one of my little favorites and I also got a little thing a suit to hang up on

Oh, they love the suit but mark the big question is did you get your buck yesterday?

Not not yet And you know and that's okay.

I mean it's just it's hunting not the killing that's um

makes me happy.

Did

you swing and miss or did you not get a shot off?

No, I just, I haven't, I haven't seen, I haven't seen a buck yet.

All right.

I had eight turkeys come in though underneath my stand that, and never used to see those when I grew up up north here.

And now they're all over the place.

You know, the turkeys, when I got here, Mark, I got to Wisconsin about 43 years ago.

There were no wild turkeys here, or I never saw a wild turkey here.

They got reintroduced by the DNR.

Wow.

And it's just been a tremendous reintroduction of the species.

Birdwatchers love it, turkey hunters love it.

So yeah, it's nice to see.

You see more turkeys than you do rough grills, which is kind of sad because rough grills are tastier than pheasants, I think.

And do you hunt rough grouse too?

I have in the past.

I haven't got one for a few years, but because I've lived down in southern Wisconsin outside, mostly pheasant hunting down there, but when I come up here, I try to see if I can flush one up, but now I don't see them very often, but

they're around.

And the neat thing about the rough grouse, the noise they make is the flapping of their wings.

It's really cool.

You think it's something.

You think somebody's trying to start a lawnmower?

That's what I used to think when I was growing up up north here.

Cranking

it

up.

Going out and going out and trout fishing and that you thought somebody was trying to see the lawnmower started because that's what they sound like.

Yeah, they sit on top of a log and

flap

their wings like crazy and makes a crazy burring sound.

That and the woodcock when you can, my ecology teacher back in when I was a junior in high school said what you can do is

because we grew up on a property we had tag holders and what you can do is you can watch where one takes off and if you run to where you think it took off it will land right right because it picks straight up in the end and do a spiral down and I've had them just land with like feet within freedom you want to have done that.

Yeah so the Woodcock for those who don't know they do this crazy mating

jumping high in the sky and coming swirling down.

But it's one of the oddest birds in the bird book.

It's a big, fat sandpiper with a gigantic bill.

And it looks like it can't, if you look at it, you think this thing can't even fly, it's so fat.

I guess the brains are upside down.

Mark, thanks for the call.

If you get that book, give us a holler.

If you see a pilliated woodpecker, you got to call in again.

Well, we do have a rough grouse sound.

Yeah, let's play that

There it is the beating of the wings Rough grouse people will go out hunting for rough grouse with their dogs Of course know that sound birdwatchers if you're lucky enough to hear see a rough grouse know that familiar sound, but It's nice to share with you.

We've got Matt from Middleton on the line, too

Hey Matt, what's on your mind?

Hey Matt, how you guys doing doing all right?

So talking about birds nature in general I grew up in Miami, Florida in the 80s and I've noticed over my 49 years of life that We're losing a lot of species of all kinds of animals Insect numbers have plummeted.

I no longer see the garden spiders

that I used to like here in Wisconsin.

And it's all because of human development.

And every time we develop, we lose habitat.

I'm wondering if you think there's any way that Wisconsin can continue to develop, but keep our birds, keep our turkeys, our herons, our cranes.

Because I've lived in Texas as well for 10 years and I came back to Wisconsin and in Texas you don't see many wild birds You don't see a lot of wildlife.

There are some city city deer that live in Austin that people feed But that's about all I saw and I remember missing birds quite a bit

Yeah,

and when I came back I saw the turkeys in Middleton when I'm out delivering and stuff and I really love birds

Well, Matt, thanks for the calls.

How do we preserve that?

Yeah, a really great question, too.

So some species have increased here in Wisconsin.

The wild turkeys we've been talking about.

You mentioned cranes, Matt.

The Sand Hill Crane population in Dane County, anyway, has been growing pretty steadily.

But some species we've been losing here in Wisconsin, especially grassland birds, meadowlarks, bobble links.

very common when I was growing up, not common hardly at all anymore.

And that's in part because of the way farming practices now plow all the way to the road or they do a first cutting.

before the nesting has happened.

So that's a problem.

Then some warbler populations, which are favorites of mine and my brothers, are way down because of deforestation in the wintertime in their winter grounds in Central America and South America.

So there's a real problem.

Here in Wisconsin, I know the DNR is cognizant of the issue and tries to preserve

places for birds that are declining and then actually works with some groups in Central America like Costa Rica to preserve some land there for the winter migrants going down there.

So people have been following this in state government and conservationists are trying to deal with it and with some success.

But yeah, I hate to see the species decline for sure.

So Matt, thanks for the call.

If you want to give a holler about your bird question, I'm happy to answer it.

Politics is a passion, birding is a passion too, so we'll take any calls on either subject.

One thing that Dom and I have been doing here at Civic Media is doing a podcast called Wisconsin Forward, where we've been interviewing all the candidates of

on the Democratic side, and I will make invitations on the Republican side after the holiday.

And just sitting the candidates down for a half-hour discussion and to not be an inquisitor, really, make it a wide-open, kind of an easy conversation, asking them the obvious question, why are you running?

Uh, you know, and then we let them sound off.

So the last time was on last week, we played, uh, several snippets.

Uh, after the break here, we're going to play a couple more snippets, but we have all the candidates on the democratic side parade through the studio here at WMDX, uh, civic media.

And they sat down with me for a casual conversation.

Uh, and Dom was in the booth recording.

We had a great time meeting all of them.

And we did snippets of most of them last time I was on we're gonna do

States Center killed a Royce and then Brett Halsey and Ryan Stern had it

felt

surreal.

It

really

felt surreal seeing everyone come in every each day.

It was it was crazy.

Yeah.

And, you know, I was surprised that it was so easy to get them.

I mean, maybe it was a slow time for the campaign, but all I had to do was call up really or or Facebook message a couple of the candidates or talk to their aides.

If I didn't know the candidates ahead of time, fortunately, I knew some of them.

And so it was easier to get them.

But yeah, we were lucky to get them all.

come right through here, sit down next to me at the mic, and just talk for a half hour.

So if you want to go to the Wisconsin Forward podcast at civicmedia.us, feel free to listen to those podcasts as many as you want.

candidate of your choice see who you think is that your favorite candidate I'd love to hear from you the number to call 608-879-8255 I'm Matt Rothschild sitting in here for John and Gordy on the John and Gordy in the morning show and we'll be right back

This is where the action is this morning.

I'm Matt Rothschild 7 in here for John and Gordy in the morning on WMDX.

Inviting you to join the conversation by calling 608-879-8255.

That's 879-8255.

We're talking birds, we're talking politics.

If you want to call in with your bird sightings, feel free.

But right now, I wanted to, as I promised before the break, give you a sample of some of the candidates who are running for governor, the ones we didn't get to last week, Dom.

So let's start off with State Senator Keldoroyce.

If you look at corruption alone, just the scale of it is staggering.

We have never.

ever had corruption on this scale before.

I mean, it's the private jet, it's the memes, the crypto scams.

It is very easy to turn away because it's difficult, it's painful to watch the news and think about what's happening in this country.

But one reason that I think Democrats are struggling in general with our approval ratings is because

too few of us are willing to stand up and fight.

And this is a differentiator in this gubernatorial primary.

I mean, obviously, I think all of us oppose Trump and are appalled, but I'm speaking out about it consistently because I think it is essential for Democrats to be clear eyed and clear voiced about what is happening.

I was called to Royce on why she's running and trying to differentiate herself from other candidates.

Let's just run through them and then we'll talk.

All right.

So the next one is let's listen to Brett Halsey.

Brett Holsey used to be on the Dane County Board and then was a state rep for a little bit, ran for governor a while back, was running again.

Well, what I have done is I bought a, nine years ago, I think I bought Ray Peterson.

You remember he's an infamous landlord who had 1.2 million in code violations.

I bought the last house from him as an 1849 house on Milwaukee Street.

And I fixed that up.

I took me three years to get it up to code, but I grew up working on farms.

I'm a contractor, carpenter.

And I kept the, there was a blind lady and her caregiver in the first place.

I had to increase her rent a little bit.

but I provided and then I did section eight affordable housing upstairs.

If I had had that place now, I could put five homeless veterans in their upstairs.

It was a four bedroom.

I could.

get $700 a month from them.

So I would be making as a landlord $3,500 a month as opposed to the $2,400 I was making just renting at a fair market value.

So again, I'm talking to landlords out there.

Guys, we have a way we can make more money and have a sustainable program.

It's hard when they shut the government down, but when I'm a governor, of course, that's not gonna happen in Wisconsin.

That was Brett Halsey talking about what he'd do about the housing issue.

And then the last candidate is Ryan Sternad.

You may have heard Ryan Sternad's commercials here on Civic Media.

Let's hear what he had to say when I was talking with

him.

Well, it's that.

I picture myself as a one of us candidates.

That's kind of an unofficial slogan of mine, where I can actually say that I know what it's like to have working class experience and

to govern as if I were in the regular voting season shoes.

As far as my experience, true.

I don't have electric experience, but I have some lobbying experience.

I have some negotiation experience.

And I have some resiliency experience too, which I feel I can stand up to whoever it is and stand my ground if need be.

And if we have hurt feelings, so be it.

I'd love to work with people.

You know, and maybe have to go as far as

V doing an entire budget if we want to get something done So I would have the goal and the willpower to want to do that if possible

So that was Ryan stern Ed now you can listen to all these candidates about a half hour each one a couple were a little short

Brett Halsey's ran a little long.

Kelderoy's ran a little long too.

But you find them at civicmedia.us.

You can click on the bar shows or you could just go to Wisconsin Forward Podcast and my name Matt Rothschild in your search engine and you can find the podcasts and then you can just look at each one that you want to listen to.

But Dom, I wanted to get your opinion.

You heard all the candidates.

What was your reaction to this parade?

Yeah, I thought they were all good.

I thought they were all, you know, some interesting, but Miquel de Roy's, I really liked how well-spoken she was.

Very, very well-spoken candidate, and she impressed me.

She impressed me a lot, and even Brett and Ryan, they were very, you know, they were well-spoken, and they had their beliefs, and I appreciate them for speaking on

on things that some people don't like to talk about.

So I appreciated all candidates, and again, I thought it was a great experience being a part of it.

And I want to thank you, Matt, for allowing me to be seeing all those candidates walk in.

I thought it was a crazy experience and probably something that I won't get to do often.

Well, I hope they make themselves available to civic media hosts and other media personalities.

Otherwise, we just get to see these people in 30-second commercials.

That's

it.

And that's not a good way.

to see them.

I hope there are televised debates too.

I mean, when Governor Evers ran the first time, I couldn't see the debates on TV.

I had to get them online, which was kind of a crazy way.

It used to be the debates were really important.

And now it seems the only thing that's important is how much money you can raise and how clever are your advertisements?

But, you know, I thought the five leading candidates, all

represented themselves really well.

Calderois, you mentioned Sarah Rodriguez was good, David Crowley was really good, Francesca Hong was terrific, sitting right next to me almost whispering into the mic, which is interesting if you listen to it because her voice is so much...

softer than everyone

else.

Made you want to lean into your chair a little bit more, right?

Yeah, it made it kind of fascinating, actually.

And Missy Hughes, who I'd never met before, who is head of economic development for Evers, presented really well too.

So I just want to encourage people to go to the Wisconsin Forward podcast, put my name in Matt Rothschild, and you'll get to listen to the candidates yourselves, come up with your own decision as to which candidate you'd like.

And then give us a call, 608-879-8255.

I'm sitting in for John and Gordy.

In the morning, they'll be back

this afternoon and they'll be back tomorrow morning here on WMDX and we'll be right back with Deborah Cronkner of the Wisconsin League of Women Voters.

Man, take this crazy pad.

Man, it's a mad pad.

Hey, Matt Rothschild here, subbing in for John and Gordy in the morning.

The guys are going to be back this afternoon from two to five.

They've been doing double duty.

Don't blame them for taking this morning off, and they'll be back tomorrow morning too.

You can join our conversation here.

We're talking about politics, birds.

We'll talk about anything you want to talk about.

The phone number 608-879-8255 here on WMDX on the Civic Media Radio Network.

I'm delighted to be joined right now in the studio by an old friend of mine, Deborah Cronmiller.

She's the executive director of the League of Women Voters of Wisconsin.

How are you doing this morning, Deborah?

I am great.

Thanks so much for having me, Matt.

Well, it's great to see you and thanks for answering the bell here.

I always like getting friends on the show.

It makes it more fun for me and easier too.

Now, I know there were several bills related to voting and elections that the legislature was considering here at the state capitol over the last couple of weeks.

Do you want to talk about one or two of those?

Sure.

We were watching with great interest.

Every time these bills come up, what it means in Wisconsin, because we have such a decentralized election system, is 1852 clerks have to learn how to do elections again.

And the league has always played a very fundamental role in helping our clerks know what to do, when to do it, how to do it.

But for the legislature, in general, I saw the bills as being, you know,

Give everybody benefited out that it was a suite of bills to try to enhance the integrity of our elections But at the end of the day, I still think it came down to a lot of politics and Some of the things that we thought would be really helpful for clerks like Monday processing Got thrown to the side at the very end

now Monday processing means the processing of absentee ballots that have been coming in and allowing the clerks to count those before Election Day that would speed the

process up, give us results faster.

Timely.

And Representative Krug, numerous times I heard him say that it was something he had heard from constituents, that constituents want to know the results of the election before they go to bed on election night.

And in Wisconsin, without Monday processing, you know, we have Milwaukee as a central cone.

community, there are 38 communities that do central count, and there's a lot of absentee ballots in one community.

So for Milwaukee to count all those absentee ballots, get the results to the county clerk to get them, you know, pre-certified or whatever they call that.

That's hours and hours and hours of work after the eight o'clock close.

And so you're not going to have the results at 10 o'clock at night.

You're going to have the results at two or three or four in the morning.

And then you get that.

backstory of, oh, you know, I went to bed and so and so was winning.

And then I woke up and the other guy was winning.

And it's because there was a ballot dump

in the

middle of the night.

It's like, no, just the results from the absentee count came in.

I know.

But people like Trump or Ron Johnson, they love to say that something mysterious happened or any Republican running for a conservative running through Supreme Court.

Oh, my God, this dump happened.

But it just happened that, you know, they'd count those.

starting at eight o'clock.

There's a pile of them.

They do count through the day.

But in a city like Milwaukee, with hundreds of thousands of ballots, absentee ballots to count, just to slice open all the envelopes, to flatten them out, make sure they can go through the tabulator, have enough manpower to do all of that.

It just takes hours and hours.

And we've talked to Polina Gutierrez numerous times just about

the timeline and the number of hours she needs in order to get the processing done.

And it's not a dump at three o'clock in the morning.

It's as fast as she can get it done.

And she's the clerk in Milwaukee County?

Correct.

And I thought this might have gone through because I know there were some Republican legislators, as you mentioned, who were saying, you know, this is something we should do.

Yes.

Yeah, I think there were a number who were really talking it up as a way to really help voters give them more information quicker, which is what, you know, Representative Krueger was saying that's what he was hearing from his constituents.

We hear it.

It would stop the backstory, the unfortunate backstory that there's something wrong happening.

But now it's going to be business as usual.

So why didn't that go

through?

Who knows?

And probably many reasons.

I don't know if there were negotiations that were happening or if at the end of the day, the body as a whole didn't really feel that that was an important piece of legislation to pass.

Cynical old me thinks that they still think it's a handy propaganda ploy every election that they lose.

So in the back story, the politics of this

also feeds, you know, this idea, this misconception that there's widespread fraud going on.

And study after study has shown that that's just not true, right?

That's correct.

And in fact, this week, we saw that the clerk submitted all the potential fraud ballots that, you know, this is just the regular process.

In Wisconsin, I believe my number was correct.

There were 46 potential...

Fraudulent votes cast.

Oh, how many though?

3.4 million.

Yeah, so I don't have my calculator here, but that's a

lot of zeros.

Yes,

exactly.

And and they but the reality is most of those were

You hate to say there's legitimate fraud, but you know, sometimes a person gets an absentee ballot, they cast it, and then they walk into the poll on election day, but their ballot just arrived that day.

So all the checks and balances at the polls were...

you know, couldn't be executed, so they were able to vote two ballots.

Sometimes we have individuals who are recently released from incarceration, they have not completed their full sentence, so their voting rights have not been reinstated.

But some well-intended person at DOC said, you're free, you're good to go, everything normal, not.

I think they should be reinstated as soon as you get out of the prison gates, but that's a whole nother issue.

We've been

advocating for that as well.

Speaking with Deborah Cronmiller, she's the executive director at the League of Women Voters of Wisconsin.

Another thing you've been working on steadily over the years is redistricting, ending gerrymandering.

And are you still head of the Wisconsin Fair Maps Coalition?

I am.

Oh, there's another hat.

So talk to me about where things stand in the effort to ban gerrymandering in Wisconsin.

Sure We have been working diligently for well since the fair maps the new fairer maps were signed into law by the governor on February 19th of 24 The the fair maps coalition and our ad hoc redistricting work group Pivoted at that time and because then we had

the maps we wanted frankly, but we pivoted to a new job and that new job was to create a truly independent process for redistricting Wisconsin away from the legislature that we know is a political body.

And so we have been working for two years now to actually craft a piece of draft legislation that we could submit to the legislature that would give us an independent

Districting Commission made up of regular citizens and that commission would have the authority to work with communities to hear from individual citizens what do they want in the way of a map for their community and then to draft those maps present them ultimately to the legislature because in the Constitution the legislature is the body that has to enact the map and and we are

very close to the finish line.

Here it is, two years hence, and we have, the legislation is drafted, we actually have submitted it to all of the legislators, senators, assembly people, and it has been submitted to the LRB, the Legislative Reference Bureau, the folks that draft bills in the state of Wisconsin, and they are

taking our draft legislation and actually making it into Wisconsin bill.

Now, this should be a bipartisan issue because a vast majority of Wisconsinites want to ban gerrymandering.

Do you have some bipartisan legislative support on this yet?

We believe we do.

And we can completely agree with your assessment.

I mean, 82% of Wisconsinites.

want to end gerrymandering.

They recognize that gerrymandering is a way to keep certain people in their political seats, retain power in a party or a caucus or whatever we want to call that.

But the reality is that when we are gerrymandered, as we have been for the last decade and a half, the citizens of Wisconsin do not get what they want.

We wanted Medicaid expansion for 15 years.

We have not seen one expansion bill.

People want more energy solutions.

We want maps not to be gerrymandered.

Not any of these bills are making it to the floor because of the

gerrymandering.

People aren't getting what the people want.

That's correct.

That should have happened in a democracy.

We should get what we want.

Absolutely.

And I think that people understand that.

You know, we've spent a lot of time, um, we, the league, the Fair Maps Coalition, our partners in the voting rights space, talking about what it is that citizens want in Wisconsin and why we're not getting it.

And we're not getting it because our elected officials who have drawn themselves into very safe, very secure, um, districts, um, don't have

to listen to their constituents.

They're more beholden to money, to power, to the political party heads.

And that's not representative government.

And that's why the League has been a leader in really trying to undermine gerrymandering.

I mean, it is crazy when 80% of Wisconsinites want to expand Medicaid coverage, and they just blocked expansion for

New moms or we in Arkansas are the only two states that don't give extended Medicaid for new mothers in this state It's just crazy or you know medical marijuana Recreational marijuana raising the minimum wage more money for schools gun

safety, you

know,

I mean 87

common sense gun laws

want that and we're and not even a bill not even something to talk about on the floor

This is the the result of gerrymandering money and politics

the way the leaders of the legislature run their show.

It's unbelievable.

On the gerrymandering issue, where was the League of Women Voters on what happened in California when Newsom brought through this new gerrymandering?

In general, the League is not one to suggest that we should gerrymander to give somebody an advantage or somebody a disadvantage.

Appalled when the president called for what happened in Texas, you know, give me five more seats and because it doesn't ever occur to me as a Person who's just devoted to our democracy that you would manipulate the system in that way Did California respond appropriately?

You know, it's a question that's hard for me to answer.

I never thought I'd have to even contemplate the question and But at the end of the day, I think what we're seeing is states that can change their Seat makeup some are saying okay, let's do it some are saying no, that's just wrong.

We shouldn't be doing that

Yeah, even Indiana backed off recently, which was good to see.

Yeah, and I think that the more we talk about the underlying issue

Which is where's the power the power is with the people and their vote It is not with the money.

It is not with the politicians.

It is with the people

Yeah, and if I'm a Republican and

California, I'm not happy that my voice was taken away.

That's correct.

I was against that, though.

I know I was a minority voice among some of my friends on the Democratic and progressive side.

Deborah Cronmiller, Executive Director of Wisconsin, League of Women Voters.

Great to see you.

Great having you on the show.

Thank you so much, Matt.

Let's do it again soon and we'll be right back.

We've got Jim Santel coming up right after the hour and we have Lisa Bernard of the Humane Society coming right

up.

It's foggy in Madtown right now, so be careful on your commute.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

I'm subbing in here for John and Gordy on the John and Gordy in the Morning Show.

The guys will be back this afternoon from 2 to 5, and they'll be back tomorrow morning too.

They're really working double shifts over here at Civic Media.

Taking a quick nap, you know.

But I'm delighted to be with you the phone number to call to join the conversation 608-879-8255 We're talking politics.

We are talking birds.

We got a text from Tom.

We said the cold weather is here I know this because the Junko is back and the cranes are heading south the Junko is a little

black and white bird that you'll see under your bird feeders.

And it's a sign of winter when they come down from Canada.

Now I'm delighted to be joined by Lisa Bernard.

She's the development and communication supervisor over the Dane County Humane Society.

Lisa, welcome back to the show.

Thank you.

Well hello.

Yeah, it's nice to meet you.

So I I know you've been on the show before but I was looking at your bio I see you are an old journalist as I am and I wondered What your journalism career was like and why you moved over the humane society?

Oh, so I I don't know I just like to do research and I was very curious and I

One of my teachers told me that she thought I'd be a good journalist based on a paper I wrote that compared to professions that had nothing to do with journalism was to be a doctor or a lawyer.

And she's like, you know, this is so well written and researched, you should really check out journalism and I did and I really enjoyed it.

And so I ended up

Going to college for it.

I was on the school paper all four years and I was editor-in-chief for three of

those

years.

And then I also got into trouble a little bit because, you know, reporting on some things at the college level and then you're talking about things that they don't want you to talk about.

So then it's like you get called to the Dean's office.

That's the fun part about college journalism.

But yeah, I worked.

My first job was out.

in a sun prairie at the star.

I was the associate editor and then I went to Chicago for gosh 10 more years, 12.

Yeah, so I was at city news service covering police and then

federal court, and then I worked for the Chicago Sun Times.

Wow, that's a great career.

And then you came over to the Humane Society.

I

did.

I wanted a change.

I don't blame you.

And when you come on the show, you like to talk about a few of your favorite pets that you have there that you want people to adopt, right?

I do.

And I have to tell you, it was a real hard choice because there are so many great animals who are waiting to find families right now.

It was really hard to just pick three.

Well, why don't you talk about the three you picked?

So we've got Onyx, who is a Black Labrador Retriever mix.

He's about five years old, about a hundred pounds, so big boy.

He was surrendered to DCHS earlier this month because his family is facing some medical issues.

He's very friendly.

He can get a little jumpy because he gets excited.

But he walks pretty well on leash.

At times he gets a little excited and will pull a little bit towards something.

But he enjoys receiving pets.

He really loves those belly rubs and ear rubs.

Loves to just hang out with you.

And

how

old is he?

He's

looking.

He's about five years

old.

Okay.

So he's...

looking for a home where he can be the only pet because he wants to keep all of his treats, his toys, and his and the love of his family all to himself.

He's hoping to find a family.

He's going to be his best friend because he's sure to become yours and he's going to spoil.

He's hoping they'll spoil him with lots of adventures, treats, and of course love.

So if you're if you like black labs, he's for you.

He's wonderful.

He really is.

And he's a member of our Lonely Hearts Club because he's been with us for a bit.

So his adoption fee has been reduced.

Okay.

And who else do you have for us?

I have Addie.

Addie is a beautiful orange and brown Torbi.

Oh, she's gorgeous.

She's 16 years old and about 12 pounds.

So she's our senior friend.

She was surrendered earlier this month.

Unfortunately, her family is moving and they can't take her with.

But she's beautiful on the inside and out.

She's very friendly and sweet.

She'll approach you when you talk gently with her.

She just loves receiving pets and attention, and she even enjoys a few brushings.

She's looking for a more quiet retirement home where she can be spoiled by her family with lots of companionship, pets, and love.

And your third pet for us?

Oreo

beautiful green eyes green yellow

eyes Yeah, so Oreo.

He's an adult black cat.

He's about eight pounds so but smaller He was found in some prairie last month He did find a home was adopted, but things didn't work out.

So now we're gonna help him find a new home Oreo is friendly, but he can also be independent.

So when he wants certain attention, he'll

He'll come get it.

He enjoys playing with toys.

He also likes receiving pets and being held sometimes like a little baby.

He has lived with another cat and dog as well as kids and he did well living with them.

He's looking for a home with a family who's going to spoil him with playtime and snuggles.

Lisa, if people want to come take a look, what is the address of Dane County Humane Society?

It's at 5132 Vogess Road and our adoption center is open today, Tuesday, from 2 to 7 p.m.

So today's actually the last day until the holiday that you can adopt because we're closed on Wednesdays and we're going to be closed on Thursday for Thanksgiving.

And are you open on Saturdays?

Yes, we're also going to be open on Friday, so Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Oh, so there's plenty of time for you to go take a look at the pets at the Dane County Humane Society.

Lisa Bernardo, thanks so much for being my guest on the John and Gordy show.

It's been fun for me to meet you and to hear a little bit about your story.

And I'll be right back after the break with Jim

Santel.

Must be and that is all True love can make a blade of grass

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is the latest news brought into your own living room.

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Let's give them some better talk about.

The talk is cheap.

Kid, kid, kid.

Always gossiping.

It's the John and Gordy show.

This is high five plus.

And that's the way it

is.

We'll do

it live.

On 92.7 FM, WMDX.

Take it away, boys.

Well guess what John Gordy aren't here.

I'm Matt Rothschild subbing in for them.

They'll be back this afternoon from two to five all across the civic media radio network and they'll be back here in their regular slot tomorrow morning.

But I'm delighted to be here with them.

They're a terrific producer.

And with you if you want to call 608-879-8255.

We're talking about politics.

We'll be talking about birds in the next half hour.

Always happy to hear your.

bird reports.

First, I want to just, if you're waking up, let you know that the fog is really thick here in Madison.

It is

so bad.

And if you're in the outskirts as I was when I drove in, you got to be extra careful because the side roads are just covered with fog.

It's like driving through.

pea soup is the old cliche I say driving through a field of cotton candy and you got to be careful and especially as you're merging into the faster roads like 14 or 90 94 or 51 you want to make sure that you're

driving at an appropriate speed.

And look out for each other out there, because it's tricky.

The number to call here is 608-879-8255.

And now thrilled to have on the stream, Jim Santel.

Jim Santel is the host of Amicus, a lore of you on the weekends here on Civic Media.

I think it's the best show on Civic Media.

It is the most informative show on legal issues that you're gonna find anywhere.

as far as I'm concerned I rely on it and I love listening to Jim so welcome to the show Jim.

Matt it is a delight and honor once again to be with you early morning even amidst the treacherous driving out there and again good for to tell everybody to be especially attentive to that and cotton candy as you say out there in the streets cotton candy in Washington DC as well in eastern Virginia too right so lots of ways that that particular phrase that metaphor can be used

in America this morning.

Well, I was lucky to have you to invite you on before I knew what the news was going to be.

I asked

you last week to

join, not knowing

that

we'd have this dismissal of the of the indictments against James Comey and Letitia James.

Why don't you walk us through why this dismissal happened?

Yeah, it's very it says hugely significant, although just a teaser for something I'll say in just a moment or so.

And that is, it's not the big issue, believe it or not.

There are others out there, which we can and should also talk about, Matt.

These are the two cases.

They're both criminal indictments.

They're returned by a grand jury, which is also significant in Eastern Virginia.

This is not out of Washington, DC.

This is Eastern Virginia.

And as your listeners will certainly know, because they're attentive and thoughtful and conscious of these kinds of...

important things in America.

Jim Comey, in a two-count indictment, a number of weeks ago, alleged by the grand jury, by the Department of Justice for having lied to Congress about some engagement with the media through a subordinate of his back in 2020.

Leticia James, completely different factual predicate.

She is alleged to have engaged in bank fraud, mortgage fraud, and her purchase of a home in Norfolk, Virginia, also 2020, interestingly.

And the allegation there is that she lied in the bank documents about the uses

of that home.

Allegedly she said that it would be only for her personal and family purposes and in fact they maintain, it was for rental purposes, some real problems with the substance of both of those and if they go to trial neither one of them I would predict would be substantively supported.

There are issues in both sides that indicate that there just wasn't a crime committed.

But that's not the issue, Matt, as you well know and your listeners know.

What happens is that both of these cases are the product of what our president's saying to the attorney general, I want these people and others who are my political adversaries.

I want them indicted.

He says they're guilty as hell.

His words, not mine.

He repeats that.

There's a September 20th statement and a truth social.

post to the attorney general saying, why aren't these people being indicted?

And what happens is to both of them, there's a US attorney, Trump appointed.

He's an interim US attorney named Eric Seabird.

And he looks at all this for months.

He's looking at this.

And he comes back and he says, no, there's nothing there, nothing there to see at all.

And he closes the case and, of course, is almost immediately fired.

He says he resigned.

It doesn't matter.

He's gone within hours.

Donald Trump turns around and says, OK, I'm putting somebody else in there.

Putz in there.

And this is the point of this morning's discussion, which everybody's talking about.

Putz in a confidant, a lawyer.

And she's in the White House.

And she has plainly been with him for a while.

Her name is Lindsay Halligan.

And she's an insurance lawyer, nothing wrong with insurance work, but has not done any criminal prosecution at all in her time.

She goes over to Eastern Virginia, takes the spot, and within days she's in front of the grand jury.

She's presenting these two separate indictments two different times.

They're not quite quite contemporaneous.

And the question that's first raised among other very important things is, does she have authority to do that in the wake following

the first appointment of this Eric Siebert.

And the question is, is the president here stacking appointments in a way that the statute does not contemplate?

A little bit more background on that.

It's not, it's arcane.

It's weird.

You wouldn't describe the world this way when craft the world this way mad if you had to.

But when you've got a vacancy in a U.S.

attorney position, the president does have a limited period of time, 120 days.

to appoint a U.S.

attorney.

I was one of those U.S.

attorneys way back when, before I was presidentially appointed.

And then after that, when expires, it's the courts that have to appoint or upon Senate confirmation.

But you can't stack 120-day periods of time and just keep putting people in the position.

So both Letitia James and James Comey, through their lawyers, say, wait a minute.

No authority here.

She's not properly there.

She's not the U.S.

Attorney under the statutory interim appointment proposition.

Therefore, can't be in from the grand jury, can't sign off on indictments.

They're no good.

They're illegal.

They're unconstitutional.

There's no foundation for them.

They should be dismissed.

And yesterday, not surprisingly, a federal district court judge

You can talk about her as well.

Her name is Cameron McGowan Curry, interestingly.

She is not from Eastern Virginia.

She's brought in to address some ethical issues related to having other judges handle the case.

She finds in a very extensive, easy reading, and I suspect, as you know well, she finds that the defendants are right.

And Lindsay Halligan had no authority to do this.

President's appointment invalid.

She invalidates the indictment, says no good, and she throws them out, and she says the cases are done.

Now, she does that with prejudice, which means that they can be brought back.

But for now, that's the basis for what happened.

That's the headline news of yesterday.

No

small thing.

Why would she do it with prejudice instead of without prejudice so they couldn't bring

it back?

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

She said without prejudice, just the opposite of.

Well,

why wouldn't she have done it

the other way and precluded further prosecution?

Right.

She could do that.

And of course, your listeners understand with and without prejudice.

With prejudice means you can't bring it back.

Without prejudice means, yeah, you can bring this back again.

Again, she describes that also in her order.

There are a couple of different considerations here.

One is that if in fact there is a U.S.

attorney appointed by the courts,

and or confirmed by the Senate who does have the authority.

She wants to say she's not deciding on the merits, the underlying merits, which again are problematic here.

But she says, you know, if you get the right person there, you can do this.

And so she's leaving open that door of a possible future prosecution because she's not resolving this on the merits, giving the government basically a break on this, if you will.

The problem with that is, as many people have noted,

And the reason why these cases, in particular, Comey's case, was prosecuted so quickly, had to get in there, had to get this done within days of Eric Siebert's leaving, was that the statute of limitations ran.

This was events conduct in September of 2020.

It had five years to that.

It came up in September of 2025.

Case goes away.

There is a fairly compelling argument that even with what the judge has done, which is keep open the possibility, the statute of limitations has run.

and you cannot bring it back as to him because of timing.

So again, she does, I think, probably the right and judicious thing, but there are also problems in both of these cases with what happens next.

And Jim Santel, you've talked about the underlying merits of the case.

I don't want to get into those weeds, but because before you get to those weeds, there are other

procedural issues.

I mean, number one, you mentioned Trump saying they're guilty as hell.

That's got to be prejudicial for any jury.

They have the President of the United States claim assert that they're guilty before

trial.

And then there's this whole question of vindictive prosecution in both instances.

And so

even before you

get to the merits of the

charges, they could get off on an argument that

the jury's been prejudiced or that this has been dictive prosecution.

On top of that, there is also the ridiculous poor legal handling of the indictment against Calcomi.

Right, absolutely.

Three different things, lots to unpack, right?

Again, talk about cotton candy soup and lots of things, but it's all very serious, both driving is serious and this is very serious, again, because what's happened here?

There are individuals who have been indicted.

That's the single most significant thing that you and I've talked about this.

Single most significant thing a government can do to anyone.

Yes, there's a death penalty out there.

For some states that trumps everything, obviously, but you think about it.

What are the things government?

It's not taxes.

It's not driving well on the roads or with regulations.

It's charging people and potentially depriving them of their liberty.

That's why these things are so very important.

And yes, this issue related to getting rid of these cases because there's no authority for the prosecutor, that's significant.

But from my estimation, that's the least of the issues here.

And as I look at this right now, I think the one you identified is at the top of the list.

You've got the president literally

The connection with the James Comey's petition, there's a similar one for Leticia James, they attach a 50 page addendum to their motion chronicling all the things that Donald Trump has said about James Comey in the public domain, suggesting again, all kinds of things I won't even repeat on Morning Radio, but also suggesting that he wants him indicted for what reason we don't know just that he's a bad person and worse.

That is vindictiveness.

That's also called a selective prosecution, as you've indicated.

James Comey has said, wait a minute, there are other people who also appeared in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee, other congressional committees, and they may have lied too.

I'm being selectively prosecuted here, but the vindictive prosecution is the big one.

And as you and I have chatted in many other forums, my friend, this is the one that goes to the relationship between the White House and the

Department of Justice, this notion that there should be a clear and un-unbreachable wall between those two things.

It's been true of every administration except Donald Trump's, where the president should not be dictating who is charged, who isn't charged.

That's a matter for, frankly, a grand jury deciding, again, at a trial jury level, the pediatry who is going to be convicted.

Those things are not, are not things that a president should be deciding.

for political reasons.

And that's the big issue here too.

That is still pending before another judge.

His name is Nakmanov.

He's the judge who is actually going to try this case if everybody comes back.

And he's got pending in front of him and he already had a hearing in part on this issue.

And was all, was very close, I think, to saying, yes, this is horrific.

And from my perspective, this is the one that needs to be told.

to the American people, to the Department of Justice, to Pam Bondi, Lindsay Halligan, and to Donald Trump.

We can't do this.

Cases need to be dismissed for that reason also.

You're listening to The John and Gordy Show.

I'm Matt Rothschild.

Submit in for them.

That's Jim Santel of Amicus Allora View, this terrific show that is on the Civic Media Radio Network on the weekends.

We'll be right back and we'll pick up this conversation of what's happening to our Justice Department.

Stay tuned for that.

Welcome back to the John and Gordy show I'm Matt Rothschild subbing in for the guys who will be back this afternoon from two to five on the civic media radio and network and back in their regular slot tomorrow morning I'm delighted to be joined by Jim Santel

He is the host of amicus allure of you on the civic media radio network on the weekends.

The most informative legal show you'll listen to ever.

I do want to caution.

You're much too kind.

Caution people are just waking up right now.

It is really foggy.

It's like driving through an SOS pad out there.

I knew you were going to say it.

There we go.

I tried to find a new metaphor.

Sick of the pea soup.

I'll sell for cotton candy, too.

So anyway, Jim, before the break, we were talking about this vindictive prosecution

that

Donald Trump's Justice Department Pam Bondi, Lindsey Halligan have been pursuing.

And I looked up an old phrase, give me the man and I'll find the crime.

This is an old authoritarian line that's been attributed to the Soviet secret police chief, Beria.

And it means if you have the person that you want to attack, you can find evidence to convict them of a crime, regardless of their guilt.

You don't know what crime they've convicted yet, but committed yet, or that you're going to charge them with, but you're just going to grab them and then concoct something, essentially.

And it's also been attributed something similar.

was written by Cardinal Richelieu.

That goes way back where he

said, show

me six lines written by the most honest man in the world and I'll find enough Therian to hang him.

And so this is what we have with Donald Trump.

He doesn't make any bones about it.

He doesn't beat around the bush.

I mean, he just says, these guys are guilty as hell.

Go prosecute them.

what what is that doing to the you worked in the justice department you were a us attorney this must just be devastating to career lawyers in the justice department

it is undeniably and you know that not just because of people like me have spent all my career doing just the opposite of this doing things based upon the facts and the law and not being influenced not one day by

political views and perspectives.

Nobody from the top in 30 years, Matt, ever called me, told me, you know what?

We've got to get this person.

It was just the opposite.

In many ways, the role of an assistant U.S.

Attorney Department Justice lawyer is to say no when there's nothing there, right?

And we got just the opposite.

And that's why the quotes that you just are so telling, that's precisely what's going on here.

And it's not just me.

It's not just other folks around the country who are saying this.

We're seeing huge

numbers of Department of Justice people departing for exactly this reason.

I think the number, according to the Washington Post, is somewhere around 5,500 employees of the Department of Justice have left.

And again, I haven't verified that independently, but if it's even half of that, that is a huge vacation, meaning vacating their spots.

of those important positions.

You're losing the expertise.

You're losing the non-political, a partisan perspective that's always animated the part of justice.

And therefore, you'll have more of this.

And that's why I am hopeful that even after the big news of what the judge did yesterday, saying that this cannot be the law, you can't appoint and then just continue to stack these terms, the bigger issue.

And I'm still hoping that somehow the federal judge who's assigned to this knock me off,

addresses all this because that's the big one.

That's telling Donald Trump you cannot do this.

This is not America.

It's not just because it's history or policy.

It's because it upends the rule of law.

If you can go into a grand jury and pursuant to exactly what you said, the Richelieu comments and others, I can go into a grand jury and indict anybody.

Again, the other issue here, what is it you say to the grand jury?

Also, the third issue here,

then who among us is safe, if you will, from unfounded prosecution?

And it also undermines generally the grand jury process, which has been out there for 236 years, Matt.

Is there anybody who's waking up this morning who knows about the news yesterday who says, well, gee, sounds like this system may be a little bit bankrupt if I can go in there and get this kind of a result.

And it isn't, it isn't, except when people in these positions of responsibility abuse it.

And to that point, you already made the other point, the second issue here, Lindsay Halligan going into that grand jury and not only messing up the indictment with who knows what and strange papers and things going on here, not making it clear, but she also said to, and this is, this should also justify the dismissal of the Come indictment.

She told the grand jury.

Don't worry.

Two things.

One is, don't worry.

We can basically compel the defendant to testify against himself.

He doesn't have a Fifth Amendment right.

And then when I want to say, oh, by the way, if you don't think we got enough evidence here, there is more.

We'll present that at trial.

It might even be better stuff.

So just go ahead and indict.

Those comments, although I've said them in kind of a lighthearted tone, are deathly serious.

They're violations of the process.

It's government misconduct.

It's grand jury abuse.

They're misstatements, wild misstatements of the law.

She basically said the Fifth Amendment doesn't apply, and you don't have to decide on the facts before you.

Those are stunning representations, shocking, and those also independently justify the judge getting rid of at least the Comey indictment.

who knows what she said in connection with the Leticia James indictment.

All three of these things warrant a clear statement to Donald Trump and to Pam Bondi.

Knock it off.

You're done and you're going to lose these cases.

They should be ultimately met with prejudice.

Don't ever bring these back.

That's what the judge now should do.

And the other judge may rule on the vindictiveness charge too, which would be an important ruling.

Absolutely.

And that's, that's the one thing I'm scratching my head a little bit about, you know, obviously the government is going to appeal this decision to get rid of these cases based upon the procedural infirmities.

He's still, he's got this, he had this hearing last week and he said, I'm going to issue an order on these issues.

I don't know.

I've never seen this again.

I'm pressing our time.

I hope he issues something.

And I hope it's not down the road.

Can you dismiss a case twice or three times, right?

At what point do you say we've had enough?

Again, we live in America where things are put on their head.

We are in new terrain, unfortunately.

But Jim Santel, thanks so much for clarifying issues and for your wonderful amicus, a law review.

Looking forward to talking with you again sometime soon.

Always a pleasure, Matt.

Good.

Have a good day.

Take care.

You too.

You're listening to the John and Gordy show.

I'm Matt Rothschild subbing in for them.

We'll be back with the director of the Wings Raptor Center right after the break.

We'll talk birds.

Thank you, Jim, again for coming on.

I appreciate it.

Very

good job.

So it

was good.

And again, I'll send you a note just confirm it.

Yeah, I'll be I'll be back here.

Hopefully by about three o'clock 315 or so for the 330 segment or segments.

Thank you so much.

Have a good morning.

Take care.

Thanks, Matt.

Good.

Always a pleasure.

Take care.

Yep.

We got a couple nice texts too.

We did.

Yeah, we could talk about that.

That

was a

good segment, man.

Yeah, I don't know where Kathleen is.

Was that them that walked into the studio?

Oh, I don't know.

Did someone walk in?

Someone walked in, but I was doing something.

So let me check.

In Wisconsin, I'm going to Birdland I have reason to believe that we all will be received in Birdland I'm going to Birdland, Birdland In Wisconsin, I'm going to Birdland, Birdland

Hey, Matt Rothschild here, subbing in for John and Gordy in the morning.

The guys will be back this afternoon from two to five on the Civic Media Radio Network and back in their regular slot tomorrow morning.

That's the new jingle we have whenever I'm guest hosting, courtesy of Sean Michael Dargan, the bowtide guitar player and musician songwriter here in Madison.

Thanks for that, Sean.

Really appreciate it.

this half hour talking about birds for a while and then at the end I've got an incredible poem by Joy Arjo who is the former poet laureate of the United States terrific poet she writes about the importance of the kitchen table and giving thanks so I think you'll like that coming up to Thanksgiving but right now I'm thrilled to have in the studio with me Kathy Dyneline who is the

founder and director of the Wings Raptor Center in Cambridge here, just 20 miles away.

Welcome to the show, Kathy.

Well, thank you for having me.

I appreciate it.

How was the drive-in, first and foremost, because the fog's been so bad?

Very bad.

It was very foggy this morning.

Yes, I had a difficult time seeing the road, but I made it.

Oh, I'm glad you did.

But that's a caution for anyone who's just getting up or just getting into your car.

especially if you're outside of downtown Madison, downtown Madison is okay, but the rural areas and I came in on 14 south of town.

It's really tough getting on the side roads and then merging onto the big roads.

So take your time out there, drive carefully.

So tell me you founded the Wings Raptor Center within the last year.

Why did you take such a plunge?

It's a challenge, but I'm always up for a challenge.

I've been interested in birds, especially raptors, since I moved to Wisconsin.

I actually was born and raised in New Jersey.

Didn't have much contact or visual experiences with raptors.

In 2018, I decided that I wanted to volunteer at the Dane County Humane Society Wildlife Center, and that's where I began my journey.

I began with songbirds and then I started to train in raptors and I fell in love.

I just fell in love with them.

They are the most

beautiful, majestic birds that you can ever experience and watch.

And I decided then that I would eventually get licensed and become a rehabilitator.

And that was my goal.

And I accomplished that goal.

Well, congratulations, accomplishing a dream.

Now, for those who aren't familiar, a raptor is a bird of prey.

It's a hawk.

It's an eagle.

It's an owl and a falcon too.

Falcon vulture as well.

And what birds do you have right now at the Raptor Center or have been brought in at the Raptor Center since you opened?

I don't have any at the moment.

I recently opened in September and my first bird that I had was a juvenile red tail hawk.

And how did that

come to you?

Actually, it was from a former customer.

My husband and I ran a boarding kennel for 29 years and we decided to close the kennel and open up the Raptor Center.

So it was a former customer, she called and said that the hawk was down on the side of the road and it was unable to fly.

And I told her immediately that I would come out and pick up the bird.

And obviously, it wasn't able to fly.

It was very weak.

It was dehydrated, had internal, external parasites, a chest wound, which indicated that could have been possibly hit by a car or a moving vehicle.

It was slightly emaciated, was anemic.

And so I took the bird in and I was able to rehabilitate the bird and able to release it in October.

So