This is the Dom Salvia show, but this is not Dom Salvia.
Dom's on vacation here for a little bit, so I will be with you.
I'm Matt Rothschild, formerly at the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, the Progressive Magazine, and I will be your host for the two-hour show today and tomorrow.
We're really looking forward to these next couple days.
Looking forward also to working with the great Jess P.S.
in the booth, who's just a wonderful producer of the Dom Salvia show and a few partners.
Aw, thanks, Matt.
So it's great to be with you.
Jess.
Well, we're gonna have some fun and I see that let me just give a rundown on the show today We've got Heather Dubois-Bernain the executive director and founder of Wisconsin Public Education Network and We're gonna have Lisa Lucas the deputy director of all in Wisconsin at 430 and then Angela Lang who's my usual guest co-host joining me at five and
We'll be talking about a whole range of things.
Always willing and happy to take your call at 855-752-4842.
That's 855-75 Civic Calls and Texts at that line.
And I see that Heather has joined us.
Heather, how are you?
Good.
How are you, Matt?
Nice to see you.
Yeah, it's great to see you.
I'm doing fine.
There's always a lot going on, isn't there?
Oh, so much right now.
Yeah, it's just kind of crazy.
How do you handle the craziness?
Just by pouring myself into whatever productive work I can find.
There are so many battles to pick right now, so you could make a full time.
job out of just deciding which ones to pick.
So keeping our heads down and trying to help other people focus on what Wisconsin kids really need is a good distraction, believe it or not, from all of the chaos around us.
And fortunately, we saw a lot of this coming and have been prepared for a while to just, you know, refuse to take the bait and do what we got to do to make sure that we get through this with
as little damage as possible to our students in their public schools.
And I think you're right to say you know pick one issue or two.
Join one organization or two, do it with a friend or two friends.
It's easier that way.
But get involved because there's nothing more disillusioning and disempowering than just sitting down for the cable news networks or skimming the news on your computer and just feeling just depressed and wiped out.
That's not going to get it done.
So that's why your network is so important.
way important even before Trump came along but it's even more important right now the Wisconsin Public Education Network and I see right now
this week, you're in the midst of public schools week.
So I didn't even know that was a thing.
Tell me about
that.
Yeah, it's a thing, Matt.
Come celebrate with us.
No, at Wisconsin Public Education Network, we've actually been celebrating a version of this for the whole 10 years that I've been at the organization.
And by the way, I'm not the founder.
I'm a total found link.
I mean, I found my people through this network.
And I invite anyone who's listening and who's captured by any of the things that we're mad about over here to
Come find your people in us too, that we've got folks all over the state who are just frustrated with a status quo that's letting kids down in one way or another and state leaders who refuse to do their job and all the things.
And one of the things that we were frustrated about was how it always feels like we're playing defense.
There's always some.
attacks, some threats, some, you know, kind of behind the scenes, wheeling and dealing, that's like pitting us against each other.
And we thought we don't even have time to prove all the ways our schools are actually not failing our kids, but thriving in spite of all of this.
And
Taking time to celebrate that is something that we often skip and so we started doing something that we called I love art my public schools week You know over 10 years ago, and we always did it during Valentine's Day week and then Meanwhile kind of simultaneously a national movement started up and and they put their own public schools week at the end of February and so we just tagged into that and started borrowing their toolkits and templates to and now there's nationwide celebration
of all of the ways that our public schools are meeting the needs of our communities and just a chance to kind of reflect on why it is we do the work we do and all of the cool things that are going on every day in every single public school in this state.
And what are you urging people to do during this week as part of the celebration?
Well, just naming that, just taking some time to think about that and re-center yourself in your own.
Why?
Why do you care about this so much?
What is at stake here for you?
Why'd you get involved in this work?
Who motivated you to do that?
And then tell that story.
You know, almost everybody who thinks about that remembers a moment or a teacher or a day or another student or somebody who touched you through your school experience and something that kind of centers or grounds you in the reasons that you think our public schools are so important to individuals, to relationships, and to how it is that we build community, how we build democracy with each other.
So we celebrate that, we tell our stories, and then the other thing we like
to do is put our appreciation into action.
What are you going to do about it?
If public schools are worth fighting for, how are we going to fight for them?
How can we stand up together?
And I spent much of today finalizing a toolkit that gives people some pretty easy ways to do that.
I've got five ways that you can stand up for public schools up on our blog right now.
And I'm going to drop that link into our chat too so you can share it out with folks.
And you also have a cool little video, five minute video of a grown up student who and his teacher.
And I think it was from Lafarge, Wisconsin.
This guy became a chef and he has his teacher who saw something in him when he was
just
in seventh or eighth grade.
And now he's like 40 years old or something, but it's a terrific little video.
Yes, some people might remember Luke Zahn.
He's the host of Wisconsin Foodie on PBS and he was on, what's that?
So, when Top Chef was in Wisconsin, he was on there, so you might recognize his face.
We actually...
met Luke when he testified last time around at a state budget hearing and I was out in the hall at the time because we had a table there we were greeting people and kind of you know checking in with other public school champions at the event and my phone started blowing up this guy's testifying you're gonna believe his testimony so good he's like he owns a restaurant or something and so I chased him down afterwards and asked him if he chairs public school story with us and and that's that's what he did he was reunited with a teacher he hadn't seen in 30 years and he
We remember details like what songs she played in class.
That's how deeply she touched him.
And those are the kind of stories that we want to tell during public schools week because those are the moments that remind us why this fight is worth fighting and why as hard as it is and as necessary as it might be to have to micro dose on all the chaos right now and take breaks from it.
Our kids are really counting on us to be there so that they can celebrate those good stories one day too.
I think the song was Simon and Garfunkel, Parsley, Sage, Rose, Mary, and Time.
So for us...
I know, now he's a chef.
Later he becomes a chef.
It was kind
of a
coincidence.
Yeah, it was a really
good story.
And hats off, by the way, to Micah Davis and Steve Bettscull, who did that video series for us.
We have five videos in that series.
We call it Public Schools Unite Us, where we matched up educators with their former students to share their stories.
And they're all just as touching as that one.
And I think anyone listening has a teacher or an advisor who had a great impact on their lives.
So this is a good week to salute those folks on social media.
You also have a day of action scheduled for Friday.
Tell me about that, Heather.
Yeah, we're closing out public schools week with a day of action.
And on our day of action, we're going to take this this fight a little bit harder to the Capitol.
And what we want to do is remind folks that
There's a reason that 178 school districts had to go to referenda last year.
And there's a reason that 86 more are going in April and five went this year because the state is not meeting its obligation to its children.
We're entering our 16th year this year of state budgets that failed even to keep pace with inflation from the prior year.
So we're just...
woefully underfunded to the tune of about $3,380 per kid, you know, when you adjust for inflation during that time.
And folks are...
taken it to the ballot box.
So we've invited people from these referenda teams from all over the state to come share their stories.
We've got other people too who are going to share their stories about the needs of kids with disabilities, how we can help protect immigrant students and their families, and what we can do together to really make sure that we are standing up for the schools our kids deserve.
So join us.
It's from noon to one at the in the noon to one and in the capital rotunda Everyone is welcome and if you can't be there follow along you can find us on social media on Facebook Wisconsin network org or you can follow along on Wisconsin I because I think they'll be there to cover the event as well
Good luck with that event.
I'll try to
get
myself You know you mentioned the referendums like three quarters of those referendums past even though it's
uh, you know, a tax increase, property tax increase for, for people, people understand overwhelmingly that we need to fund our public schools.
And yet, uh, in the capital here in Madison, that message, uh, hasn't gotten through sufficiently.
Why is that?
Because there is no political will to do the right thing in the state house right now.
And we have seen this budget after budget after budget after budget.
and it's time to break the toxic cycle.
There is absolutely no excuse for not listening to voters, for not listening to the hundreds of people who come speak out at the budget hearings year after year, and for not listening to the communities, blue and red and purple and everything in between, who have been telling the state, enough is enough, we can't afford to do this.
And it's very disequalizing.
Every time we have to fund our schools this way, when one referendum passes and another referendum fails, our gaps just get wider.
that has already was already unfair to begin with becomes even increasingly so when we fund in this really unethical way.
And so people are just saying enough is enough.
And we need to call on every single state leader to do better and to vote for a budget that will really meet the needs of our kids.
And one way that we want them to do that is by increasing the special education
reimbursement rate, get us out from, you know, under the stranglehold of being worse in the nation in that category and give public schools the same 90% reimbursement rate that they currently give to kids who go to a private school on a voucher.
Let's close that funding gap and see what happens.
It would be transformational for every kid in the state.
Heather, can you hang on and do one more short segment for the end of the half hour?
Yeah, sure.
I'd like to talk a little bit more about the Evers budget and then maybe
stuff in Washington if we got time.
You're listening to the Dom Selfie Show.
I'm Matt Rothschild.
My guest for this half hour is Heather Dubupper, Nain, who is the executive director, not the founder, but the executive director of the Wisconsin Public Education Network, and we'll be right
back.
Hey, welcome back to the Dom Salvia Show.
I'm Matt Rothschild.
It's up and in here for Dom, who's on vacation.
And I'm delighted to have with me to the end of this half hour, Heather Dubois-Bernain.
She's the executive director of the Wisconsin Public Education Network and one of the best activists in the state of Wisconsin.
Thanks for hanging on with me to Heather here.
Thanks.
My key to success is that I've been mad.
for as long as I can remember and I'm not going to stop doing what we need
to do until I'm not mad anymore.
You know, it's a it's a good impulse to seize on that anger and funnel it into political activism.
And when I used to, you know, write op eds, my first and give clinics on how to write op eds, my first piece of advice was
Seize the anger you have and write about what you're angry about.
I think
I went to that workshop, Matt.
I actually think I did.
I've got that note somewhere.
It was very validating for me.
I think I give that to about two generations of activists in Wisconsin.
But it's a good idea to funnel that anger in a positive way.
And for a hotbed ride, you can take the anger out when you're done a little bit.
You can tone it down so you're not screeching and screaming at people.
I wanted to, as I mentioned before the break, just mention Evers' budget, what you make of this current budget.
I know you were highly critical of the one that he signed last time around.
Well, the one that he signed last time around for zero resemblance to the one he presented last time.
So let's hope we don't find ourselves in that situation again.
The budget that's on the table right now is pretty strong.
I mean, I don't think it gets us to...
funding adequacy for public schools, but it certainly is a heck of a lot better than what we've got right now.
It does some things the last budgets certainly didn't do, such as restore the state's commitment to special education by lifting the reimbursement rate to 60%.
Yes, that's lower than the minimum of 90% we were asking for, but it's double what we have now with the worst in the nation reimbursement rate of 29%, which is just shameful.
Billions of dollars every year are transferred from general funds to cover those unreimbursed costs.
It's just unconscionable.
It gives districts new spending power by
restoring what we often call the Tommy Thompson standard, where, you know, every year you get at least an inflationary increase to how much you were allowed to spend.
But the state still paralyzes districts with what they call revenue caps, which are really spending caps, which are unfair and don't have anything to do with how much students need and given districts.
So there's some really good things in that budget that respond directly to what we know kids need, mental health support, support for educators,
and for rural districts, lifting the low revenue limit ceiling which is desperately needed too.
So a lot of good things in there and let's hope that we can have some honest conversations about why we need all those things in the budget hearings and in our communities as we move forward.
Folks can follow along at wisconsinnetwork.org slash budget for our budget headquarters where we're gonna provide information on every single
opportunity, democracy affords you to raise your own voice in this process, to tell your story, to amplify it where you live, and to really connect with people, including decision makers, about what local kids need and why you think they should do better in the next budget cycle.
So there'll be these hearings around the state on the budget and your organization, Wisconsin network, a public education network, Wisconsin network.org does a great job of turning people out to those hearings.
That's an opportunity for you, the listener to get your voice heard right in front of the elected officials.
You
know, they
can't hide from you at these budget hearings.
Tell
them how
you feel, you know, be polite, but be strong.
Tell them exactly how you feel and what you need, what you think the public schools need.
free meals was in, you know, the governor's budget.
We need that.
I mean, there was no expansion of the voucher program.
If I read it right, I know Republicans are going to want to get that.
And he gave way too much of that last time around, but try to hold his feet to the fire too.
The governor's feet to the fire so he doesn't compromise too much.
Yeah, we need to be a critical friend to everybody in the law in the legislature on this That's super important and then after you do that that's step one and then step two is amplify it do your testimony
and then share it out, put it on your socials, send it out as an email, send it to all the lawmakers, not just the ones who are on that powerful joint finance committee, and make sure that other people know that you spoke up and are standing up and the more we can kind of make a snowball out of all of these concerns, the more likely we are to be heard and the more likely we are to see some real change because it's been a long time coming and we're sick and tired of asking for the same thing and getting nothing.
Well, I bet you are.
One last topic is the school superintendent race.
Do you want to talk about that and what's at stake there?
Well, everything's at stake with all the things on our spring ballots, but that is certainly a top consideration for people who care about strong public schools.
We need to elect somebody who is going to center student needs and think about how we can hold the line on privatization and hold all of our schools accountable to meeting the actual needs of kids and not the political whims of partisans at the state house.
And so people have a lot of work to do in making sure that they do their homework and identifying those two
candidates and seeing where they stand on the issues that matter to them.
We're hoping to do a candidate forum very soon.
The League of Women Voters and the NAACP of Wisconsin are co-hosting that with us.
So stay tuned for details on that as soon as we can get a date confirmed with the candidates.
Do you want to just talk about who the two candidates are briefly?
Yeah, well, the state superintendent, Dr. Jill Underly was successful in getting on the ballot again.
So she will be seeking another term.
And she's being opposed by Brittany Kinzer, who is a former employee of Citri Forward Collective, which is a pro charter lobbying organization in Milwaukee.
And she she was a privatization lobbyist for them.
As far as I know, that was her most recent occupation before she decided to seek this office.
So you cannot have a bigger contrast, or it's a huge contrast in any event, between someone who advocates for public schools and someone who advocates for privatization and voucher schools.
So that's a really important item that's gonna be on the April 1st ballot along with the state Supreme Court race.
So it's really crucial for people to turn out in vote.
April 1st, you can vote the two weeks prior, you can vote by absentee as I do.
Make sure you turn out and vote on those two big races, Wisconsin Supreme Court.
and also schools who are superintendent and on any of the referendums that are there.
Right.
86 of
them.
Yeah, she's the executive director of the Wisconsin Public Education Network, WisconsinNetwork.org.
Thanks for being my guest.
Heather, it's great to see you and talk with
you.
Thanks so much for having me.
It was great to see you too, Matt.
Have a great day.
You too, and we'll be right back with the Dom Salvia Show.
Welcome back to the Dom Selvia Show.
I'm Matt Rothschild here, sub and in for Dom who's on vacation.
I'll be with you for the rest of the day up to six o'clock today and I'll be with you from four to six tomorrow.
So thanks for listening.
Happy to be joined right now by Lisa Lucas, an old friend of mine who's the deputy director of a tremendous group called All In Wisconsin.
Lisa Lucas, welcome to Dom Selvia Show.
Thanks for having me, Matt.
It's nice to be chatting with you.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
And you, the listener, can call in our text at 855-752-4842.
That's 855-75CIVIC all across the Civic Media Radio Network.
So tell our listeners what All In Wisconsin is all about.
Yeah.
All in Wisconsin is a communications organization.
We work with grassroots organizations all over the state to help them build communication strategies and narratives that center their communities, disrupt dog whistles, and provide a narrative foundation to help them win on their issues and so that we can all have freedom, safety, justice, and joy.
And
who could object to all that?
It's so important this work because, to my mind, liberals, progressives, Democrats, people who want more justice and equality in America have been losing the messaging game for just for so long.
It's been a frustration of my entire life since I was in progressive media and in progressive activism at the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign after that.
How first of all underfunded we are by the big foundations and the big liberal Hollywood folks I mean those folks have been asleep at the wheel forever and then just the kind of tactical or strategic messaging mistakes that We have some of us have fallen prey to too many times.
So why do you think?
There's been this messaging failure
Well, I think a couple of reasons one is that
Some folks are very comfortable in the status quo, or what was the status quo for a while, and messaging the way they did kept them there.
The other, I think, is just that it gets, I think messaging gets used as a way to provide PR instead of shift policy change, which is what the intention of good messaging really is.
And so you can't really have good messaging until you have really good policy.
And it starts there, I think.
So part of the problem is policy.
Part of the problem is how to articulate that policy.
And you guys are great at the articulation part too, and I'm sure you're great on the policy angle as well, if push came to shove.
But I want to talk about the articulation, the messaging part, because one of the things you're famous for, at least in my book, is this adage, don't bring a fact to a values fight.
Do you want to explain that one?
Sure.
I think it's a tendency that we have as progressives to believe the best in people and to think if only they had the right information, they would be on our side.
If we could only educate, if we could only get people to understand this fact, they would be on our side.
But the truth is, if facts won people over, we would all be out of work.
we would have won all of these things a very, very long time ago.
And so the unfortunate reality that's backed up by cognitive research is that people are not moved by facts.
They're swayed by values and the way things are framed.
I mean, communication is just, it's every single way that humans exchange information with each other, right?
And facts are certainly a very important part of that.
And we don't want to get away from
knowing what the facts are, especially in this age of disinformation and misinformation, but you don't win people over by digging into the weeds of a policy.
You win people over by telling them what the final result of that policy is going to do for them and their families.
So how do you connect with those values that are resonating with people and their families?
Well,
We have so much in common with each other that I think you just have to start there, right?
It starts with what do we all love about the community that we live in?
What do we want to share together?
How do we want to connect together?
And the wonderful thing about...
the way that our society is shaped is that we all do have these pillars of society that we can use whether it's a consumer or a member of a faith institution or a parent of a school or a sports fan or anything like that where we all have some sort of social or political or economic power that we can use to kind of shift power dynamics through
talking to each other and aligning with each other on what we ultimately want, which really is the same thing, right?
We all want the freedom to be ourselves.
We all want our families to feel joy.
We all want to feel economically secure and not be worried that one trip to the doctor is going to bankrupt us.
And we all want to be able to envision a future where our kids and our grandkids are happy and healthy and whole.
So part of it is painting that positive vision, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And then not getting in the weeds, as you say, on the fact side.
That's why sometimes, you know, I used to go around the state giving talks to a lot of progressive
groups and there'd be bumper stickers like fax matter and I see it sometimes on people's car fax matter and and after listening to you over the years I just kind of look at that bumper sticker and kind of scratch my head because maybe that's not not the winning way to go.
I mean facts are important but you know in this age of alternative facts we're not connecting with people as much as we can and that's why the work that you do
And Dr. Cass Bowers does over there.
She's the director, executive director at all in Wisconsin.
So
important.
You know, I heard a corollary to your don't bring a fact to a values fight the other day, which was don't bring a lectern to a social media fight.
I don't know if you've heard that one before or seen it, but I think it was aimed at like.
Minority Leader Schumer or someone who just gets up at a lectern and gives a boring speech with a microphone in front of them and has no social media presence.
So I kind of like that little twist as well.
Who do you think is doing good communication work among our elected officials, either here in Wisconsin or nationally, on the progressive side?
You know, I think in Wisconsin right now, there's a lot of reps that are doing a really good job of not taking rage bait that Republicans are giving them.
I think Francesca Hong is doing really well.
I think Christian Phelps is killing it up there.
And so there's definitely a seed.
of how to talk about these things and how to give people hope.
And I think that's the other really important part of it is like, you cannot lead any of these conversations with just what we hate and what's wrong and what we're afraid of because people right now already want to crawl under the table and ignore it all.
And so if we start there, we kind of end up having to coax them out from under the table instead of starting with...
What we want to achieve and the values that we have if and how we can do it together and that kind of gets them away from the table in the first place and then federally I mean
I haven't been super impressed with anything that I've seen.
I think AOC is doing a solid of a job as she can do.
I forget the name of the rep in Colorado who brought her newborn to be able to vote on the cuts.
I thought that was a really powerful visual, but ultimately it feels like
The most power that is happening right now is not happening from any legislators or any elected officials, but is really happening with people who are moving in solidarity with each other to take action in ways that we haven't seen in a really long time.
Yeah, I'm sensing the rise of activism locally too, and it's really kind of exhilarating.
Yeah.
You mentioned rage bait.
Let's talk a little bit more about that.
That's part of
something that you wrote on your group's website, all in wi.org, about how to fight back against the authoritarians that have taken over our country right now.
You say don't fall for rage bait, outrage driven posts, even if accurate often serve to exhaust and distract.
And you also say, whatever you do, don't repeat the propaganda you're trying to debunk.
Do you
want
to talk about that?
Right.
Well, the rage bait, I think we've all fallen victim to it, unfortunately.
I think we've all had moments where we just get caught up in winning an argument with some stranger on Facebook.
And, you know, their entire purpose is to waste our time.
That's it.
If we are fighting with somebody on Facebook who is not arguing in good faith with us, we're not taking that time to call our own legislators or to have conversations with our family and friends, right?
So it's just a waste of time.
And then the other part is not repeating the things that the opposition is saying because we know that they're lying and they also know that they're lying.
The reason that they lie
is to outrage us because if we are outraged we want to correct them because we're so good at correcting people with the facts so we end up trying to correct people with facts what we're really doing is just giving their falsehoods
free publicity, free airtime, we're sharing their quotes.
And so what happens on a cognitive level is people do not remember if the thing that we shared was true or false.
They just remember that it exists and it existing in your brain is enough for them to consider it true.
So
perversely, we're reinforcing the right-wing message.
Yeah, we reinforce it.
And when we do things like share it on social media, if we share it directly from a rage post page, then we're also giving them engagement clicks, which gives them a stronger algorithm that reaches more people.
So if I say, if you have to share something, if you want to talk about how absurd it is or how silly it is, screenshot it.
put a picture of the screenshot on your post and then say the thing that you want to say, but don't share and give them free clicks.
I'm speaking with Lisa Lucas, who's the Deputy Director of All In Wisconsin, who's a real expert on communication and has studied what works and what doesn't work.
And you have do's and don'ts on your website too, which are really helpful for people.
So I would recommend that folks go to allinwi.org and look at what Lisa and Dr. Cass Bowers have to offer there.
Just as a way to figure out how do we communicate best with people.
And also, Lisa, you mentioned, you know, know your audience.
Don't waste your time on people you're not going to be able to convince.
I fall for that sometimes because I have crazy ideas that I'm going to even convince CJ here who calls in on the Civic Media Radio Network and is a right-winger.
Not a horrible human being.
I've had lunch with him, but pretty much just repeats the party line on Fox.
And I don't think even in my most deluded.
I'm going to be able to convince him to change his mind.
But look, there were one third of the voting public didn't turn out at this last election.
So we not only need to try to convince some of those Trump voters, we've got to really convince the folks who didn't come out and vote at all.
And that's what we, I think we probably hit more mileage there, especially people we know.
I mean, that's the important thing, talking to people you know, your friends, family members.
you know people are getting information all over the place and if we can counter that information in a smart way which is what you do every day Lisa at all in Wisconsin then we might have a chance here of rescuing our democracy from the fires that are burning all over it right now and just you also have things on your website just from a human level how to keep going I think those are important to share as well and not to get too discouraged so what's your advice there Lisa?
Yeah, I think the most important thing to remember when we are living through an authoritarian regime is that we know what we can leverage with them because the one thing that is always true is that they're weaker than they appear and they are relying on ordinary people to be passive.
And what that ends up looking like is that
we become isolated, right?
So connecting with each other, as simple as it seems, really is so very important for people right now.
So getting into community with folks.
If you have somebody that you've been meaning to reach out for coffee or lunch, go do that.
If you have a book club that you've been meaning to start, go start it.
What do you need to be to be with your people is a really, really important part of this.
And we'll pick up on that if you can just hang on for the next
10 minutes, we'll follow up on that conversation and maybe talk about the Brewers, because you have a funny podcast, fun podcast with the Brewers.
And I'm talking with Lisa Lucas of All in Wisconsin on the Dom Selvia Show on the Civic Media Radio Network.
We'll be right back.
We're back on the Dom Salvia show.
I'm Matt Rothschild.
Subbing in for Dom was on vacation.
I'll be with you tomorrow afternoon as well.
And I'm joined by Lisa Lucas, who is the deputy director of the great group Allie in Wisconsin.
Really, they have the best advice on messaging and communications in the state.
You're listening, of course, to the Civic Media Radio Network.
The number to call is 855-752-4842.
That's 855-75 Civic.
You get the 8-5-5.
It's 8-5-5.
Just remember the other 7-5-2, 48-42.
And on the line, we have Joe from Madison.
Joe, what's on your mind?
This is a fascinating discussion.
I'll definitely check out your website.
It sounds really valuable.
I just wanted to add a few more points in and just get your reaction to it.
One of the things you said that struck me was you said, don't repeat their lines.
basically give them another platform.
Republicans who are saying something that you know to be wrong, why repeat it?
But it strikes me that we also sort of need to think about how we craft our messages in terms of being the most punchy that we can have.
And it strikes me that brevity is really important.
humor is really important and that almost the kind of give people a catchphrase.
Mark Polkan was on Stephanie Miller in the last week or so, and he was talking about the bill he set forward that looks at a lawn musk in his nefarious deeds.
And the bill, as he specified it, he could have gone into long legalese, but instead it was, he said, look, if you're a federal employee, you can't get federal contracts.
If you're getting federal contracts,
You can't be a federal employee.
Now I think that Elon Musk has tried to amend that situation, but at the time there was a very clear way to me of stating what the problem is.
And in terms of humor, I was really impressed with, I'm sorry, I should have looked it up before I called, but there was a town called Lancaster, it may be out in PA, I'm not sure, but at any rate, one of their representatives refused to come to a town hall, just bagged on the town hall.
So the people basically created their own.
outside in a public area where they had about 200 people and they had somebody dress up in an inflatable chicken outfit.
And that was supposed to represent the representative.
And then there were 10 questions that they asked the chicken.
And every time the chicken was the chicken's turn to talk, they just did the little chicken broth, you know, because I thought it was, you know, the optics of that and the fact that it does state, you are so weenie that you can't even take questions from your.
Understandably, I raise audience.
It's part of your job, you know, to do that.
So I thought the optics of that were good.
I thought the humor was good.
And I'd be curious to hear what you think about those ideas of just being as brief, if you will, about a statement.
So people don't remember that much.
Their lives are really filled with a lot of stuff.
And it's unreasonable to expect that they're going to remember every detail, every fact.
So I'll hang up and listen to what you have to say, Lisa.
Thanks a lot.
I'll definitely look up your group.
Thanks a lot.
Thanks, Joe, for the call.
Go ahead, Lisa.
Thanks, Joe.
I think that that point about humor is so right.
One of the things that we know that authoritarians hate is being mocked and being made fun of.
And so the more we can use humor to deflect from their harm, the better.
I'm thinking particularly of, I don't know what it was.
it was a while ago there was a neo-nazi rally that was being organized and they were yelling white power and a bunch of people got dressed up as clowns and joined them and shouted white flower and just threw flower in the air all over them and
The group was humiliated and ended up calling off their rally before it was supposed to finish.
And that was, it was really funny.
And so I think that humor is absolutely a part to play.
And then the brevity part, absolutely true to, I don't, I don't think we need long-winded speeches every time we're trying to counter something.
I do think it's important to not ignore what the opposition is saying, though.
What I recommend doing is to not repeat what they are saying, but to just point out why they are saying it and what their intention is behind it.
So instead of saying, um, this person said this and it's not true because of this instead say this person tells lies to try to
make our communities distrust each other because he doesn't want us to notice that he's sneaking into our back pockets and giving tax cuts to his friends.
So pointing out the motivation behind why people are putting all of this bait out there instead of repeating the bait is really important.
And it's important also to have hobbies that are healthy.
And one thing that Lisa Lucas does on the side is she is what she, she's one of two brewer babes.
They have a podcast about the Milwaukee Brewers.
Do you want to just mention what you're doing there, Lisa?
Yeah, it's just a fun little podcast that me and a friend have been doing for a couple of years now.
We were called the Brewer's Babes.
We talk, yeah, thanks for talking about, you know, what's going on with the team.
We try to give updates to folks.
We try to bring a different fan perspective because there's a lot of Brewer's podcasts out there that are very, very good and are also, you know, focused on stats and focused on metrics.
And we can talk about those things, but we really like to highlight the humanity of the players and talk about their lives.
and what they're bringing to the team and how they interact as a group and the fun that they have that we see them have.
And then we also throw in a couple of conspiracy theories every once in a while about OMPs and front offices and the MLB networks.
And how can people find out more about Brewer Babes?
BrewerBabes.com is our website and you can also find us anywhere you get podcasts.
So we're on Spotify.
We're on Apple.
Just search Brewer's Babes.
It'll come up.
We're also on Blue Sky at Brewer's Babes.
There you go.
No, link that into the show notes.
Of Brewery Babes and All In Wisconsin.
Here, I have the hat.
The hat here for people who are watching.
I want one of those.
Thanks so
much for being a guest on The Dom Salvia Show, and we'll be right back.
Thanks,
Matt.
