At Last – “But I Digress…”

Hello world, welcome to WFHR's Directors Cut for this July 7th, 2024, session 47.

Your host and program director here, James J. Melloff, I'm joined by my partner in art,

our head of production, Seth Habagger, Seth Mike Seron, let's roll.

Let's do it.

This is kind of a fun episode because we're doing something that we kind of were talking

about many, many years ago, about possibly doing a podcast about movies called But I Digress.

And we're kind of coming full circle now.

We're doing something similar, not exactly the same, but we're doing something similar

for the show today.

I've always loved this idea.

I know that you and I have wanted to do it for a long time.

And here we are, we're finally able to do it.

I do want to note to the audience that this is something that Seth and I are going to

probably do a little bit more of.

Yeah, as we are in between guests, we will kind of keep creating content for you.

Yeah.

And I want to give Seth credit for this because honestly, I was busy trying to book guests

and different things and I was not thinking about that as much.

And I appreciate that note, man.

It keeps, it's the way to keep this show a lot.

Not only alive, but successful is continuing having new content.

So we're looking forward to this, simplifying it sometimes helps out.

And I want to let the audience know that while these are movies that Seth and I picked out,

we'd love you to pick out a movie that you like us to review or feature or anything like

that.

The more obscure the better, the more the more niche the better we love those, but we'll

do it with any movie.

I don't care.

Pretty much, yeah.

Email either of us James.

mail of at civic media.

You can reach out to any of us anytime we'd love to hear from you and we'd love to review

your shows.

Keep those email addresses handy too because we want your guests.

We want you entertainers, you creatives out there on the show.

You could be here.

As a matter of fact, if you want to just come on the show and talk about a movie like we're

doing right now, hey, we'll do that too.

We'd love to.

If you just, you're not an artist or anything, but you love movies, come on, come on to

the show.

We'd love to talk to you.

Over 200 film and TV credits in his career.

That's a working actor right there.

Yeah.

I think a lot of people remember him from the bodyguard or at night at the museum.

He had an amazing role in New Jack City.

He was an air bud.

He was in a bunch of those movies.

If you are looking for a movie to highlight Cleveland's own Mr. Bill Cobb's and you're looking

for a great performance.

If I can recommend a movie that might even be featured on this show sometime, a sneaky

underrated movie, The Hutsucker Proxy.

Oh my gosh.

It is such an amazing performance by Bill Cobb's and while Tim Robbins does an amazing

job in that he, as he doesn't almost everything I've ever seen him in, Bill Cobb's I think

steals the scenes that he is in.

That's awesome.

And he is one of those character actors that I love that could do that.

Not every character actor could pull that off.

Bill Cobb's was one of those guys that was, I wouldn't say no, do this a lot, but when

the moment shined for him, he took it.

And that's, you know, being an actor who works constantly, you know, big things, small

things.

It doesn't matter.

You're just working.

You're constantly honing, you know, you're constantly working at your craft and all these

kinds of things.

And those are probably the best people.

When they get that chance, you know, a little bit bigger role or something, they're the

ones that can just nail it because they're, they're just, it's right there.

They can do it.

I've had the debate with many actors and even, even comedians and some others about

this, it's actually often musicians that will bring this one up.

If you could have the, for a broad example, James Dean career or Bill Cobb's career, where

you're, you're one of the most famous actors of all time, even to this day, James Dean

ain't absolutely 40, 40 years, icon, but still an icon, but he did three films or would

you rather have a Bill Cobb's career where you have 200 movies and you work over such

a long time and everything.

And I have never blinked at this question once, give me Bill Cobb's career every time.

Absolutely.

I mean, James Dean guy, so that wasn't, that wasn't me picking on James Dean.

It's just a matter of, I, I got into this not to be well known.

I got into this to be good at it.

I got into this to work with other people that are good at it and want to make good, good

creative work.

Absolutely.

I think that's the art of a, that one of the greatest notes you could say to an actor is

you, you did good work.

You were a part of good projects.

I mean, and even if it's a, you know, like, maybe it seems like it's silly on the

surface, like air butt or something like that.

You know, kind of a, a movie is like, oh, why did you do that?

Well, it was a job, you know, you work, man, that's what you do.

That's, that is your job.

And I think this is a lot of what a lot of people kind of get hung up on because of the

fame and sometimes if you're really good, you know, you get a lot of money, if you're

a good entertainer or a sports person, yeah, you know, which James and I consider entertainers.

Yes.

That's like, you know, well, why did you take that movie?

Why did you do that?

It's my job, man.

Yeah.

This is what I do.

Now, a lot of people enjoy movies and that's cool, you know, people come to see them

and that's why we do the job that we do, but it's still a job.

You're still a worker yet to keep that in mind.

I appreciate also being able to do this and be able to take these notes and be able

to shut them out.

Yeah.

It's always fun.

I want to, and I think that while we're talking about character actors, there are not

character directors, but there are directors who are a bit more okay with being behind

the scenes, not being the big name, not having to have their name ahead of the credits.

There are directors who really are about the project, are about the work.

And I think our first director that we're going to feature, our first film we're featuring

in John Kessin-Velley is one of those great examples of that.

Right.

So if it's a name you're not familiar with, John Kessin-Velley's was an independent film

director for many years in the 60s, 70s, 80s.

I don't have when he passed away.

He passed away pretty young, though, unfortunately.

Yeah, in 1989.

1989.

Oh, no, I'm sorry.

Yeah, 1989, 1989.

1989.

So he was not very old when he passed away.

Now if you know John Kessin-Velley's the actor, he was in a couple of pretty darn big movies.

I believe he was in the dirty dozen.

Dirty dozen.

He plays the husband on, in Rosemary's Baby, does a great job in that movie.

And a couple of other big roles and stuff.

But he was one of those guys.

He did the acting to pay for the films.

Now he was a very independent filmmaker.

He was known for, basically early in his career, he did black and white, very, I guess you

could say kind of claustrophobic movies.

They were very, they were very like in tight situations.

The relationships were very close and that's kind of where he got his, the drama from.

So his first big film was Shadows, which kind of hit the indie scene and people were

starting to go crazy about it.

He did a film called Husbands, he did a film called, probably one of his more famous ones

is a woman under the influence, which actually started his wife, Gina Roland.

Maybe a fabulous actor, yeah.

And probably is most well known, but through the 60s and the 70s, the early 70s, he was

known for these really intense, emotional relationship driven movies.

That's what he was known for.

And in 1975, 76, he decides to take a complete left turn and do what's considered a neon

noir called the killing of a Chinese bookie.

Now not that John Casavetti as a director was a household name, he wasn't.

But in the industry, this was like, whoa, whoa, what's going on here?

This is something he's never done before.

But as you watch the movie and if you've seen some of his other movies, it's very similar

in terms of what he's trying to get across.

All of his stuff is about relationships.

In this case, it's the relationship of a man who owns kind of like a strip club, burlesque

house kind of thing.

It's called Crazy Horse West, named after, of course, the famous Crazy Horse in Paris.

And it's not like just, you know, people, ladies coming out and bumping and grinding and

kind of thing.

It's a show.

They do, they have props and they do songs.

And so it's a little different from your, you know, a normal everyday thing.

Cosmo Vittelli is the name of the main character played by the great underrated Ben Gazzara,

who you've heard the name before.

He kind of broke out with anatomy of a murder.

That was his first big role.

Extremely handsome man.

Yes.

I mean, even as he got older in this film, he's in, it's like it's older in this place.

Oh my god, he's handsome, man.

He plays, you know, the owner of this club.

And basically the plot, such as it is, is he gets out, you know, he's been dead.

He finally pays off his loan shark to get all of this.

He celebrates by taking some of his girls, some of his dancers.

And he goes out and goes to an illegal gambling thing to just play poker immediately goes

in over his head.

He's back.

He's down $23,000.

And this was 70s.

That's not nothing.

Yeah.

Especially for a small time operator like him.

So he has to go in and talk to the guys running the game.

They're gangsters.

They're, you know, I'm not, they're not like Mafia, you know, they're just like small

time hoods kind of thing, but they've got a lot of money and influence.

So he's got to make good on it.

So what does he do?

He signs, basically signs over the club to them.

So if anything happens to him, they get ownership of the club, okay?

So they're like, well, if we ever call on you to do us a favor, you're good.

You know, don't worry about it.

So he goes on about his business, but very quickly, they come see him at his club and

say, hey, we got something we need you to do.

And basically it says, we got this Chinese bookie over in Chinatown.

This is takes place in LA, by the way.

You need to take care of him for us.

Go ahead, you know, shoot him, basically.

And so he's at first, he's very real like he's like, no, no, no, no, no, we'll figure

something else out.

You know, I'll pay you back, but we'll do this.

Basically they take, no, you're going to do this for us because we want you to do it.

It's basically a setup for him and without getting too much into the plot, he goes in, he

goes in and does the thing.

He actually accomplishes what they send him to do, which is not what they wanted.

And that's kind of where the movie goes from there.

Yeah.

Again, the plot is, especially in a lot of John Casabetti's movies, is not the most important

thing.

It's the relationship that they have.

And I really want to point out a couple of really interesting things.

Now the version that I saw was the 78 directors cut.

So when the movie was released, released in 1976, it was a little bit longer than he

normally did.

And Ben Gazara, the star, saw it and he was, you know, he was friends with Casabetti's

and he said, I don't think it's that good.

He said, there's something about it I don't like.

So Casabetti's went back and recut the entire movie.

And he didn't just, you know, like cut parts out.

He like rearranged it and he changed it so he thought it could be better.

That's the version I saw.

I have not seen the original version so I don't know the differences and I'm from the

sounds of it.

There's quite a few.

A lot of the musical strip numbers were kind of cut out of the new one.

You still get a couple of them in that kind of thing.

But a couple of things that really struck me about this movie.

First of all, the camera.

For those who know John Casabetti's, he was interested in close-ups.

He wants to get his actors.

He wants to get every little nuance of their reaction and everything.

One of the best scenes or one of the most striking scenes I should say, he is, Cosmo

was in a diner and the gangster guys are all around him.

He's kind of in the middle.

There's like four of them.

And they're all talking about what they want him to do going kill this bookie.

And the whole thing is shot and close-up.

Hand-held camera.

It goes back between the people speaking, but the acting is so good.

You get to see these reactions.

You read on their face what they're feeling.

And man, there's nothing.

It's an intense scene because they're asking him to go and kill somebody.

He was in Korea.

So he was a combat vet.

He had shot people, but in a war kind of scenario.

So this is completely different.

That's one of the most striking things about that is the close-ups and the emotion of

the scene.

Him really not wanting to do this, realizing he's stuck because he signed the paper.

That kind of thing.

The other striking scene, one of the other striking scenes is, so he's going now.

He is going to go to Chinatown, go to kill the guy.

There's a plan.

They give him the plan.

The gangsters say, OK, you're going to do this and this and this and this.

And there you go.

They give him a car that was stolen.

He drives.

He gets a flat.

So right off the bat, something bad happens.

So he goes so he gets to a gas station and he calls a cab in a foam booth.

Immediately afterwards, he calls the club.

And he's asking the bartender and everyone else there who will talk to him, how the

show's going, and it's not going the way he thinks it should be going.

Sonny, how's it going?

Well, who's on stage?

Margo and Sherry.

Why are only two girls on stage?

Where's Teddy?

He just came up.

Well, what's he singing?

What song is he singing, Sonny?

But how can that be?

Sonny?

How can that be the song with only two girls on stage?

What?

Sonny?

Well, who's this?

Vince.

Vince, I can't understand Sonny.

Well, who's on stage now?

The short girl at Margo Donna, right?

And the tall girl?

Right, Sherry.

Yeah.

And what number is it?

Is it the Paris number?

The Paris number for Christ's sake, you've been in the place seven years.

You don't know what the Paris number is?

Well, are there signs on the wall, P-A-R?

The Paris number.

Are there letters on the wall that say P-A-R?

There's another card that says, Moon.

Well, what's he singing?

Is it I can't give you anything but love, baby?

I can't give you anything but love, baby.

The striking thing about this scene, he's in the middle of going to kill somebody.

But the most important thing to him is that the show is going right.

And he's not there to control it.

And it's driving him crazy.

It's fascinating.

That kind of thing, what's important to this guy?

It's not that he's got to go kill somebody.

It's that the show isn't going right.

And I'm not there to fix it.

And I can't stand that.

I'm not there to control it.

It's really intense scene.

And again, it's like a lower angle close up of him in the phone booth.

It's very claustrophobic, but it's so indicative of the character.

You get to know who Cosmo is and what's very important to him.

I've seen a lot of modern directors and even 90s directors,

Ots directors, talk about his work and even a lot of directors of the late 60s, 70s.

They got away from a lot more makeup in that time.

And in part because they wanted to do more close-ups.

They wanted to do more of, I want to see the sweat on your brow.

Realistic.

Yeah, I want more of that.

He was really one of the guys that really helped get that going to where we are now,

where we see a lot more of that.

And we've kind of gone back to a lot more of that.

It makes it very unglamorous.

The whole movie has kind of a, and I think intentionally, kind of a grimy feel to it.

It feels so lived in.

It feels so real that you totally believe that all these people,

want a great example.

I love this.

You'd never see this in a mainstream movie, okay?

So he, at one point, he's auditioning a new dancer and one of the other dancers comes in,

who's actually his girlfriend and she's jealous and she's very upset that he's alone auditioning

this dancer to be a stripper, of course, and this stripper freaks out, you know,

because the woman comes after her a little bit and she's, you know, half naked.

She's grabbing her clothes.

She's running to the door, okay?

Two things happen as she's running to the door that you would see.

If that happened in a regular movie set on a, like a thing, the director would immediately

call cut and do the scene again.

She's running.

She drops her shirt and she stops, turns around and picks it up again.

She gets to the door while she's like trying to put her shirt on and all these kinds of things.

She grabs the door, pulls it, doesn't open, pulls it again and opens it and then leaves the scene.

That's the end of that little scene there.

Those two things, she're going back to get her shirt and her not opening the door on the first

try in a mainstream movie, never see it.

Yeah.

You would never see that because it's like, no, no, no, no, no, it's got to look, you know,

there's a beat and rhythm and all these kinds of things.

In time.

Yeah, right.

Exactly.

But Cassavetti's kept it in.

He's like, ah, ah, that's what I want.

That's what I, it's those kind of little like quote unquote mistakes that makes it feel so real.

Because yeah, that would happen.

If you're rushing to get out, you're half naked, you're trying to get dressed and you drop stuff

in the door won't open and all these kinds of things.

It makes it, for other things that make it, you know, kind of questions like, wait a

When this really happened kind of thing in that movie, but those little things there, man,

it makes it so, ah, it really pulls you in.

Everybody has had that moment where you're storming off in the door won't open or you try

to, you try to slam the door, but it doesn't shut all the way or some get stuck in the doors,

you're trying to make this big dramatic exit or something like that.

That's reality.

And, and audiences, even going back to the 60s, have wanted that more and more from their films.

I think that we have gotten much better at that at doing that, but I think there are parts

that we have lost.

The grittiness that you're talking about in part is done by great camera work and great props,

people in set design and a lot of that, but also the way that it was, the film that we had back then.

We only had such good film, we only were able to film things a certain way.

So, I think that with the modern times being what they are and on our phones, we can film

major pictures now, and it looks great, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We've lost a little of that rhyminis that we could create in those scenarios.

Right.

There is parts of that.

Cassie Vetti also, I do want to note here the actor that he was.

Yes.

When you brought this up, I hadn't seen the film and I went back and I had seen the film,

I just forgot about the film, and I had to go back and see some scenes.

But what you did for me too, I love the dirty dozen of watch it all the time with my dad.

There is a great film.

If I could just piggyback off of your suggestion.

Absolutely.

Mickey and Nicky.

Oh, God, yes.

Probably my favorite when I think of him.

And honestly, when I think of Peter Falk, it's one of the first things I don't think of

Colombo right away.

I think of that performance.

I think of that film.

He loved relationships.

The plot of the movie was only the plot of the movie for the audience.

For him, especially as an actor, it was the relationships.

And there's a reason why he worked with, I think a credit to an actor is oftentimes noted in

the people that they work with and that you see them work with again and again and again.

And him and Peter Falk had great chemistry.

They did.

We're good friends and worked really well together.

And that movie, while they did a lot of things together and stuff.

And not even saying it's the greatest project either of them did whether together or solo,

it's such a good example of why we like these guys, why they continue to work.

And doing real work, there's so many mob movies out there and so many of them are really

caricatures of other mob movies.

Oh, absolutely.

Yes.

This is an original mob tale.

Yes.

It's an original one.

If you really, and I think actually knowing a little bit about this stuff,

actually gives you a little more insight into that world than most movies do.

Right.

It shows you these, the criminal mastermind, no, no.

Okay, it shows the mob guys, they're not that smart.

You know, they're just their opportunists.

They see opportunities to get, you know, stuff to make money.

That's all there.

That's the reason they're doing all these things.

The main reason they set up, they set up Cosmo is they want to kill him.

So they can take over his club.

That's why they do it.

So they set up as a whole elaborate thing.

And that's where part of the, you know, the unbelievable of the plot itself,

it gets into, but you don't care about that.

You just care about what's going to happen next.

What, what, what, you know, what is Cosmo going to do and these kinds of things.

And at the whole time, you're enjoying the, these relational things that Casavetti is,

is bringing out in this.

And a lot of it was improvised by the actors, you know, Casavetti's being an actor

himself understood this.

And, and, you know, the script was rewritten every day.

And that kind of thing, there's not a ton of dialogue.

I mean, there, there is, but there's a lot of quiet parts where it's just these, what was it?

The sound, I noticed, the sound design was amazing in this movie.

There's a part where Cosmo is, is going into, to, to do the deed and stuff like that.

There's no sound, except for here and there.

They put sounds in there.

Oh, it's a great, it's noticeable.

But you notice it and it's like, wow, that is so cool that he decided, yep,

he's using all of these cinematic arts in this movie to make it really memorable,

which is, which is what he, in my opinion, has succeeded.

If it wasn't for acting, I think that if I was going to get into something

in the creative realm and film and TV and everything, I would have been an editor.

I really love it, or maybe a photographer.

I really love film photography.

I love the great work that so many of our great cameramen have done over decades and everything.

But editing to me, there's something about just a clean, great, flawless edit

that gets me every single time, no matter how many times I see it.

This was another one of those guys that editing was incredibly important.

And part of that was because of something you touched on there that I have my notes to Seth,

the sound, not just the sounds that we hear, but the lack thereof.

And the idea that you could, I understand that most of you haven't been on a film set or a TV

set or anything.

And you're not really that, you're kind of better for it in some ways.

But one thing that every set I had been on, and I've been on about 16, 17 sets.

So I've been on that many, but whether it's a TV show or a movie, whether I have a good

part or I don't or a big part or I don't, at the same thing, the tension, there is a tension

on every set I've ever been on.

Because, well, even if the cameras aren't running, the money is running.

You're always, they register as I was going, right?

And there is somebody, whether it's a producer or somebody or a director or somebody out there

thinking about that, and I go, we got to go, we got to go, we got to go.

The film's rolling, we got to go, cameras are rolling.

Even if they're not technically rolling, that's what they'll tell you.

That phrase is still being used a lot.

So the idea of, at a time when there's not a big budget in this film, there's not a lot,

there is that pressure there, and you're still able to have that calm, those moments where

some of the most dramatic things you've ever seen or ever experienced are silent.

Nobody's talking, nothing's being said.

That such a, there's such a danger in that, whether we're talking about radio and letting

there be better or we're talking about film and TV, where again, the cameras are rolling,

this is costing money.

How dare you have a scene where your actors aren't speaking, but we go right back to the reality

and how much people want reality in their films and their movies.

Well, how many times have you been in the moment where somebody in the room

says something dramatic or something heavy, and you didn't just immediately say something,

you thought about it, you felt it, you felt it in the room.

In this movie in particular of his, you get feelings where you feel like you're in that club.

You really do.

I didn't, I didn't remember that as a kid until I was rewatching some of that.

Right, right.

And that's, and then I think that's just a, just to say how specific a filmmaker, John

Casavetti's was.

Now, I'm going to say right now, it's probably not for everyone, I don't like saying that,

because I think if you get into the right head space, you can watch any movie.

You really can.

And maybe it's not the best movie, it's not the best movie ever.

I can tell you that right now, but it's still, there's a fascination in there of all kinds

of these things coming together, which for, for John Casavetti's film was art, period.

That was it.

For him, who needs to make a movie, it was art, art, art.

He didn't care if anyone watched it.

He made movies for himself.

That was his expression.

That's how he expressed himself as an, as an artist.

And so that's what you're getting.

You're getting what John Casavetti's wants to put out there.

Now, it's not like he wasn't a collaborator.

He was.

He, he made his actors do lots of work, and that's how they got to the point where they did.

Couple of real quick things before I wrap it up.

I do want to say there's a couple of performances in this that are really good.

First of all, Ben Gazzara, amazing.

Yeah.

He's a character that, Cosmo is not someone you're terribly sympathetic to.

He's caught in his own little world.

He gets out of his world, and he's kind of lost that kind of thing.

But you do, you do, there is sympathy for him.

And that's, I think, because of how good of an actor Ben Gazzara is.

Yeah.

One guy that, and I think, ever got his due when he was alive, sadly.

You know, he did some other great things.

He's the villain in Roadhouse, the best bad movie ever made.

But, so I want to put that point that out.

Also, the, the Seymour Castle, speaking of character actors.

Seymour Castle, who was another one of those guys,

200 movies, kind of thing, working actor for 40 years, something like that.

You see him, he's got his voice, especially, you will know who he is.

I'm trying to think of a movie where people would remember him.

If you remember Dick Tracy, he played one of Dick Tracy's lieutenants.

Sam Ketchum, that was Seymour Castle.

You know, he usually had a mustache, but he shaved it for that one.

I think, but his voice, it's, you will know his gravely voice.

He is very good in this as well.

He was one of Cassivelli's stock guys.

He was in almost all of his movies because he was good.

And he's very good in this as one of the gangsters kind of thing.

So, I mean, and all I can say is that, you know, if it's one of those movies,

you know, you're in the right mindset.

Check it out, kind of thing.

It's, it's kind of a, it's not, it's a little, I think,

more accessible than other of Cassivelli's movies,

because of the crime angle that makes people, you know,

more accessible to people, that kind of thing.

And one, I didn't, I had to go back.

I have to go back and check.

Apparently, this is when David Bowie was living in LA,

and he was really fascinated by Cassivelli's as a filmmaker.

Some of the crowd shots of the club, he's in some of those.

Wow.

I have been told.

Now, I haven't checked that out.

But so if you do decide to watch it,

see if you can find David Bowie in some of the crowd shots at the club.

I'm glad you brought up the, first, I'm glad you brought up this director,

this actor, this movie in particular.

This is a great first one to really bring,

get this whole thing started.

It's a perfect example of what we talk about.

And I'm really thankful that you brought up the idea of

if it's a good movie or not.

Everybody's objective.

It's so much is.

And I think that's all the more reason to suggest movies,

whether it's to us on this show,

or it's to friends and such.

You just don't know what somebody might enjoy or somebody might not.

Hey, absolutely.

And I admit I'm walking into this a little biased.

I have never, you know,

I've never wasted my time with a movie.

I've seen plenty of bad movies,

but I've never come out of it and thought,

oh, that's two hours, I'll never get back.

Because for me, I dissect these movies so much

and I can always look at the acting

or look at the editing or something

and take something from any project.

But I actually don't think I'm alone in that.

You don't have to be insane about acting like I am

to appreciate anything that you see and anything you take in.

I think it gives us a little bit more.

Look, you've already spent the time on the money.

You've already spent the time on the movie.

Why not try to find something to take from that movie

that you enjoyed?

Maybe you didn't like Ishtar,

but you like Dustin Hoffman's performance.

You know, something like that.

There are plenty of things that you could take even

from a bad movie that you can suggest or enjoy.

I think this is part of that where we'll get from that.

100% man, 100%.

It's a great choice, brother.

No, yeah, go ahead.

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Be sure to check that one out, everybody.

And stick around, we'll be coming back

and we'll digress into another movie

coming up on Director's Cut.

Welcome back to Director's Cut with Seth and James.

So I digress our kind of episode of that.

Yeah, we've been featuring some great movies here

and it's something we're going to do going forward with this.

Whenever we don't have guests,

Seth and I will get together and maybe we'll bring in a guest,

maybe one of you to talk about a movie, talk about some movies

that maybe are a little more niche,

a little more hidden out there and everything.

And Seth chose a great one,

a great director, great actor.

I cannot top that,

but I did want my first movie choice

to be a Rob Williams movie.

Yeah, makes sense.

In part, because obviously if you've heard me talk

for two seconds, you know what the man meant to me.

But I also think that there is so much of his work

that was not noticed and appreciated.

Robin did a lot of projects, did a lot of movies

and was for every movie that is well known

like a good morning Vietnam or something,

there are movies that came out around that time

that people, you know, just because they got lost in the shuffle,

didn't maybe do well box office wise

or weren't marketed well, something like that.

And I've got a couple of examples of his.

I think Toys is a great example.

Oh wow, yeah.

Not a fantastic movie, maybe,

but his performance, the performances of other actors

in that movie makes it a must-see to me in many ways.

Right.

But my number one movie of his,

as far as if you haven't seen,

I encourage you to check out.

While I'd love you to see him in a one hour photo,

one hour photo is one of the most disturbing movies

you'll ever see,

but it's a chance to see Robin

like you've never seen him before,

not only in his acting,

but even in his look, his look,

you don't even recognize him in it.

No, it's such an iconic performance to me.

It's a transformation, really, yeah.

It's one of the greatest,

it's technically a horror movie in many ways,

but it's not, there is no blood and guts,

there's no gore in that movie.

It's a psychological horror movie, I guess you could call it.

That movie messed with me more than any blood and guts

movie I've ever seen in my life.

It brought me back to go,

actually went and watched a Hitchcock afterwards

because of how much it was like that to me.

Where Hitchcock didn't need to scare you with blood

and guts and everything, he got your head.

Ratchet up the tension, yeah.

The Fisher King is my choice.

From 1991, a fantasy comedy directed by the amazing Terry

Gilliam, directed by Richard Lagravis,

Gravenus, another great writer,

great director, great team right there.

Stars Rob Williams and Jeff Bridges, Mercedes Rool,

Amanda Plummer, and the wonderful Michael Jeter,

who I didn't get to mention earlier.

The film tells the story of a radio shock shock

who tries to find redemption by helping a man

whose life he inadvertently shattered.

What happens in this movie,

just giving you a little quick synopsis, Jack Lucas

and our secistic, misogynistic, shock, shock,

become suicidal and despondent when he learns

that some of his intense on air comments

inadvertently prompted a mentally unstable regular caller

to commit a mass murder suicide.

This disturbs him, obviously, and we see this happen

and then we meet Jack three years later,

where he is working for his girlfriend,

Mercedes Rool, at a video rental store,

just to show you how the datedness of this and everything.

It's fantastic, I love that part of it, actually.

It's the nostalgia of that part is fantastic.

He is on a bender, he is a problem with alcohol jack,

he's on a bender, and some kids mistake him

for a homeless person and try to set him on fire.

Oh yeah.

Robbins character Perry comes into the rescue and saves him

and Perry and Jack develop a relationship.

And Jack, while certainly wanting to be caring

about Perry a little bit, sees redemption and Perry,

sees, oh, I can redeem myself.

I can help this man out, I can bring him up from the trash

and I can dust him off and make him a great puming

in society and all these things and that will redeem me.

That will, whether to the masses or not to himself,

it will redeem because like a true narcissist,

he does not truly care necessarily about Perry

or about his girlfriend or any of these things.

It's more so about I can redeem myself through Perry.

And one of the beautiful things that I think

develops throughout this movie is the idea that

Perry has some mental problems and struggling

with mental health, but Perry is fine.

Perry doesn't need to be dusted off.

The person that needs to be dusted off is Jack.

And you get a lot of that through this movie.

It's a beautifully well told film.

There are some moments in this film

that are my all time favorite moments of Robin on screen.

There is a scene with Amanda, they dust him off

and he has this girl that he likes

and they go on a double date

and they are walking through the streets of Manhattan.

And Robin is picking up trash because he's homeless

and they're trying to convince him, stop it,

stop picking up the trash, stop doing that and everything

because he's on a date and he wants to impress

Amanda Plumber's character where they're talking

and they start talking about novels and books that they like.

And Amanda Plumber says something about these novels

being trashy.

And Robin says to her, well, I don't think

there's anything trashy about romance

and he starts talking about it and everything.

And at one point he says, besides,

you can find the most beautiful things

and you just never know what you can find in the trash.

And he holds to her this little wooden chair.

And Amanda Plumber is such a good actor

and another one of these character actors

that we touched down with Bill Cobb's and such.

It doesn't always, doesn't seem to get the credit

that she deserves her facial expressions.

Amanda Plumber didn't have to deliver a line

for you to know what her character was thinking.

And I love actors like that.

I think there's such a lower in that.

Her look on her face when she sees what's in Robin's hand

is just only, it's not topped.

It's only complemented by Robin's look

when he sees her look.

Oh, wow.

And that was all one take, one scene.

And it was not planned.

It was something that Terry kind of gave the freedom

to the actors to be able to do these things.

And it's just a beautiful scene.

I want us to be able to play that for everybody here,

just to hear the audio of that.

And even in the audio, you can hear the pause

and you can imagine if you haven't seen the film

that looks on their faces.

Right.

Boy, that sounds real exciting.

Why does it sound exciting?

It's not exciting at all.

Why not?

That's, I mean, your calculations

determine whether a book is published or not.

Maybe it's a book that changes the way people think

or act.

But what we publish is mostly trashy romance novels.

Don't say that.

There's nothing trashy about romance.

In romances, passion, imagination, beauty,

besides you, you find some pretty wonderful things

in the trash.

Just an amazing scene.

Just one very cool.

And I appreciate you putting that in the background.

Yeah.

One of the things that I thought would

be fun about this, because I think

that this movie is a little, maybe a little more

popular than the one you suggested,

and a little more current.

It's definitely more mainstream to be sure.

But yeah, I think so.

I didn't know getting into a whole lot of things

about it that you already know out there.

So I thought I did some homework on this

and wanted to get into some of the things that might not

have been known about the film.

No, cool.

Jack was in a shock, Jack originally.

That was just done in the final draft.

Rainman came out, and immediately everybody

was afraid of being another rainman.

They didn't want to try to copy that.

They were, parody is such a done such a, right?

Yeah, imitation, you know, anything.

The old saying, anything in Hollywood,

anything worth doing is worth overdoing, right?

Right.

And for every director and actor that

wants to do that and paradise something else,

there are the other groups like Terry Gilliam

and that they want to, oh God, I don't want to do anything

like that.

I want to do the exact opposite of that.

Rainman comes out as a huge hit.

And while we are much better about this nowadays,

most producers back then, you're dealing with mental health.

I don't know about that.

I don't know if we want to do that.

And then if you have a successful film that deals

with mental health, and then another one coming out

that's similar to that project, you're

very afraid of that.

So they were trying to find different ways

to separate from those things.

Also, this is the beginning of the rise of Howard Stern.

And I think that while there was a touch of that in here,

they didn't want to, they wanted to hit on that

and kind of make a note of that,

but they didn't want to copy Howard Stern.

So there were some of that going on as well.

But that's an interesting part of this.

I thought the movie was promised to James Cameron

and Billy Crystal.

That was the original director writer of it.

That'd be a very different film.

I made my, James Cameron's a fine director,

but not for this project, not for projects

and involve thinking, I'm sorry.

But if you go to a James Cameron movie,

you're going to have some plot,

but you're going to have a lot of special effects.

You're going to have a lot of those.

It's going to look interesting.

Right.

He's not really interested in a lot of deeper stuff than that.

Very successful director.

I'm not at all taking anything from him.

I just think that he's not the right guy

for certain projects.

And I actually, I've never felt this before,

but any Rob Williams movie he did, he owned for me.

I can't imagine anybody else in those roles.

Billy Crystal never really got a chance

to do really serious work a lot.

He never did.

Interestingly, his career started that way.

So his character on soap was supposed to be

a bit of a more dramatic character.

It's one of the first homosexual characters in TV

and a popular TV show on that.

And Billy wanted to play that a little more serious

than tongue and cheek.

As it would turn out, the director,

and in that having a lot of clout as a young director,

he kind of had to do certain things, certain ways

in paradising, and a lot of that.

But his original concept of soap was more serious.

That character was more serious.

And he would go on to try to do more serious.

Interestingly, city slickers was supposed to be more

of a serious role for him.

Really?

That ended up going a little bit more silly on everything.

Because it was Billy Crystal, and not directors so much,

but producers were very afraid of letting Billy Crystal

do anything that wasn't comedic.

Yeah, it wasn't in his silly wheelhouse, right?

So that was never going to work.

And part two, Disney, who did this,

it was very afraid of releasing this movie.

They thought it was way too dark.

It was way too serious.

Kind of funny to look at where they are now in projects

to think that Disney would worry about that.

It wasn't a different time, right?

It really was, a different time.

Mercedes Rule thought that she bored Terry Gilliam to death

and never thought that she would ever get this role.

Terry Gilliam turned around and told her,

no, you're going to get nominated for a best

supporting actor for this role.

That's how great you were.

Rule one, a best supporting actress

asked her for her performance.

Yes.

Just to deserve, by the way.

So interesting to think of that.

That happened so often.

It does.

It's like, I think I can think of off the top,

my head, some of the best auditions I've ever had.

But I didn't get the role.

But yet roles like the one where we met, Sherlock.

There are a few roles I won in more of my life

than playing Sherlock Holmes.

And I would say one of my top 10 worst auditions ever

was for that one.

And I was as shocked as anybody

I got the role to be honest with you.

But it's one of those things that happens sometimes.

That this is where you really do trust directors.

They see something.

And even if it's a bad audition,

you gave them something that they were like, yeah,

that you're the one.

And that's where really good directors come in, I think.

And Terry Gilliam is a very fine director.

I mean, he's idiosyncratic, you know,

the projects he's chosen over the years.

And some hits, some misses, that kind of thing.

But as a craftsman, I mean, he's second to none.

I would put Terry in my top 10 directors of all time.

Wow, yeah.

I love his work.

I love his chances.

Even movies like The Adventures of Baron Moon Chaucer,

which is not a great movie or anything.

No, it's awesome though.

Look at the things that he did in that movie,

that directors are doing now consistently,

that he was taking chances at,

that now are kind of almost intertwined

into the craft making of a film and everything.

I really feel like he's one of those guys.

I hate saying this, but he's not going to get appreciated

completely until he's gone.

That's true.

And generally, his uvra, and they'll be like,

wow, this guy was really good.

It's part of the reason why you and I like to do these things,

where we do talk about these directors or actors a lot,

is because we want to highlight them while they're around.

Yeah, credit where credits do.

Yeah.

Another thing that, one of the things that was so good

about Terry Gilliam is the way he sees the world

and how much he wanted this movie to have a fairy tale imagery.

He really wanted to give you what it is

like to be in the head of Robyn's character, Perry.

That leads me actually to a question.

I don't know if you know the answer to this or not.

So the title of the film is The Fisher King,

which is related to the quest for the Grail,

the King Arthur, Knights of the Round Table quest for the Grail.

The Fisher King is the one I believe who keeps the Grail.

Yes.

And that's who they have to get past in order to get to it.

So how does that play into the film itself?

Terry's character, Perry, is on the hunt for the Holy Grail.

Oh, okay.

And his nemesis is the Red Knight.

And defeating the Red Knight.

In fact, you just set me up perfectly, brother.

Nicely done.

Because you see the movie and the Red Knight,

Terry Gilliam does a great job of the shadows

and smog and fog and everything.

But it was made of latex foam latex to the point

where they actually had to ask Robyn to hold back

because he went too hard on it.

He went too crazy.

Like, we need that again.

You're going to do other takes and stuff.

Terry Gilliam actually had multiple times during the filming,

talked to Rob Williams and settled him down.

The last shot we had to do was Robyn running

at the end of this scene towards the end

where he's running in Manhattan naked.

It's one of my favorite scenes of all time.

And he's in this hysterical state.

You can even see the light ever so slightly beginning

to come on the river in the background.

But Robyn was so angry because it was such a crucial moment

that he felt he had been cheated of his ability

to really give this moment his all.

Oh, wow.

You don't see much of Robyn, but his back of this.

But it was important for him to really give you

the fury of this.

And he worked so hard that like,

picturing what people would see from behind him

and directing and acting this and stuff.

Robyn Williams, not for nothing,

was a great director that never got a chance to direct.

He did.

I think he directed a couple of movies,

but they weren't big.

They were like very small projects.

Yeah.

Again, one of these things that he really

wasn't given the opportunity to end everything.

But he was so such a,

while the tape is rolling,

you, this is I am that character

and I am completely embodied into it.

And while I don't think many people would ever say

that he wasn't a great director or a great actor,

I don't think people realize how intensive an actor he was

and how embeddled he was in these characters,

especially when we consider him as such a comedic genius

in everything.

Williams had to get the comedy out of his system

to that point.

Williams went up and up to uptown to do a set in his words

to get the comedy out of his system.