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Now live from the civic media studios in Madison, Wisconsin, where the political party is just
beginning, welcome to the Devil's Advocate's Radio Show.
Friends proving it's never personal, only politics.
And now here's your host, Dom and Crute.
Welcome back to the Devil's Advocates Radio Show, a Wednesday, happier, happy hour,
break in news edition.
And down we got one of the newsbreakers joining us right now live via stream.
He is Jeff Mandel, he is with forward law, law forward, my bad Jeff, welcome back.
The returning champ, you're a highly regarded man around here today, sir.
Thank you, Jeff.
That's very kind.
It's great to be, it's great to be back.
Jeff, let's start with the reporting at the Washington Post.
I had heard earlier interviews, I've certainly read the reporting of Patrick Marley.
Um, first and foremost, does this reporting have it right to your opinion, sir?
A, the false electors have effectively made a civil settlement, the 10 false electors
here in the state of Wisconsin.
And so, you know, tell the story, Jeff, how much of the Washington Post gets it right?
And do you have any distinctions to draw?
No, I think the post has, has, has the story exactly right?
Um, and, and Patrick has really gone on this story from the beginning.
Uh, he was in the Capitol on December 14th, 2020, uh, looking to see where these folks were.
And he has been interested in our efforts to find out what happened and hold those
who tried to steal the election in Wisconsin accountable, uh, from the beginning.
And as you say, today's news is that we have settled our civil case against the 10 fraudulent electors in Wisconsin.
Keep in mind, this is the, not only the first, uh, but really the only civil case that it's kind in the whole country.
Seeking accountability against these folks who, again, disregarded the will of the people.
And we don't care that 3.3 million people in Wisconsin voted in Joe Biden won.
But the 10 of us, we know better.
And we're going to say that Donald Trump won the state of Wisconsin and should be advanced toward becoming the president based on that.
Uh, and so today's, let me step back.
When we filed this case a year and a half ago, uh, it was, it was a really novel approach.
And what we were trying to accomplish was two things.
We wanted transparency so that the people of Wisconsin would be able to understand exactly what had unfolded with this scheme here in Wisconsin.
And we wanted accountability to make sure it could never happen again.
And we entered this settlement that was announced today because we accomplished both of those things.
We released almost 600 pages of materials, many of which were new, uh, into the public so that people can understand exactly who was involved and how this scheme came into being.
And we got these 10 folk promise that they will not be presidential electors in 2024.
They will never again be presidential electors in an election where Donald Trump is participating.
And if any of them is ever a presidential elector again, they won't engage in this kind of scheme to, uh, to, to, to thwart the will of the voters and give Wisconsin's electors to someone who didn't win this day election.
Jeff Mandel from law forward, Jeff, this was a settlement with the 10 fake faults.
Some would call them worse than that, but let's spare you for, for right now, uh, Trump electors here in the state of Wisconsin.
But this does not release all these civil defendants from this case.
And in fact, we have seen it reported the Jim Troopers, uh, who was an attorney, uh, for, for Donald Trump through the recount and, and various actions and Kenneth cheese bra.
Uh, cheese bro, who has been named and pled guilty in the Fulton County, Georgia.
They are still defendants in what is now an ongoing civil suit against just two defendants.
Do I have that part right, Jeff?
You have that part correct as well.
So we brought this case with a number of claims, including the idea of a civil conspiracy to violate election law.
And we were able to settle with the 10 fraudulent elect defendants today because we were able to accomplish those goals.
We, we set out of disclosure and accountability.
Um, we haven't yet reached a settlement or been able to accomplish those goals with the other defendants.
And so the case goes on, uh, if we're able to accomplish our goals, then we will, we'll, we'll, you know, this isn't about vengeance.
It's not about punishing or embarrassing anyone.
It's making sure that the people of Wisconsin fully understand what happened and that we take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Jeff, uh, certainly appreciate the efforts.
And, and anytime we can shine a light and get, you know, some background as to what went on and how it went down it.
That's, that's a worthy effort.
Uh, no monetary settlement in, in this part, Jeff.
And honestly, when I first saw it, I was like, oh, that's great.
But I mean, what is it?
What is the value of them saying and how important is it for them to retract the actual documents that said Trump was the, the president?
Well, I think it is actually important, Dom, um, you know, and the, the, in terms of the monetary settlement.
As I said, this was never about vengeance.
This was never about a pound of flesh.
This was about making sure that our elections in Wisconsin function as, as our framers and, as intended and as our democracy needs, it needs them to.
And that nobody can thwart the will of voters.
So that was what we, we aimed for and that is what we've hit.
The money piece really is my view irrelevant.
But, uh, you know,
to your question of how important is that they retract the fraudulent documents that they submitted.
I think that it has real value.
These are historic documents that will be part of the archives.
And what we got today is these 10 fraudulent electors saying a number of things that I think are really important.
Number one, Joe Biden won the 2020 election in Wisconsin.
Number two, you'll see in the discovery documents that we released.
They admitted that they never are told and never believed that Donald Trump had won the 2020 election in Wisconsin.
Notwithstanding the fact that each of the 10 people signed documents that they sent to various state and federal officials, including the Congress of the United States.
That said, we are the duly elected presidential electors for the state of Wisconsin.
And we certify that Donald Trump won the election in the state of Wisconsin.
And so those are those documents, even the fraudulent ones they submitted are now part of the historical record.
And by putting forward this acknowledgement today and agreeing to send this acknowledgement to every state and federal official who they had previously sent these fraudulent papers to.
What we make sure is that historical record is complete.
And that any time there it's now or whether it's 100 years from now, someone is trying to figure out what happened and they get their hands on those fake papers that say that Donald Trump won Wisconsin.
They will also get this piece of paper that says actually that's not true and and and and we we we said that and and it's wrong and nobody should rely on that.
Folks, you're listening to the devil's evocates Jeff Mandel from law forward.
One other question in this regard is reporting from Patrick Marley states that the.
The false electors said they would assist the Department of Justice and their investigation and help Biden lectures and other lawsuits against troopers and cheesebrows Jeff from your perspective.
Obviously Josh call has not yet investigated or publicly admitted to that.
If they're under investigation of something comes down that they now become under investigation in the state of Wisconsin because this is basically an admission of what they did if there's some criminality there.
How would that impact their cooperation with the Department of Justice?
Well, it was important to us because we did settle and there wasn't going to be a public trial where these folks would have to testify and everyone could see it.
It was important to us that we ensure we were not doing anything that would hamstring other accountability efforts in Washington or elsewhere.
And so it is a term of the settlement that each of these elector defendants will cooperate with other investigations ongoing now or in the future and will do so fully and openly.
They also agreed to cooperate fully with our ongoing litigation against the remaining defendants who we believe were co conspirators and all of this.
Your question is is a good one Dom and that is you know what happens if an investigation is opened or maybe one is ongoing but if one becomes public here in Wisconsin.
Obviously we have a fifth amendment to the constitution and people cannot be compelled to give testimony against themselves.
So there is in the settlement agreement something that says well if you become the target of an investigation then you don't have to cooperate in that investigation that that that sets you sets you free.
But until and unless that happens we expect their full cooperation in our case and in all ongoing matters.
And I will note since since you flagged it we are seeing those criminal investigations sort of continue to spread across the country after our settlement broke news broke in the morning this afternoon the news broke that the fraudulent electors in Nevada have now been indicted.
And Wisconsin is now in the minority of states that had fraudulent electors this past election cycle where there is not a publicly acknowledged or prosecution ongoing or at least a criminal investigation.
So I suppose we'll all see what happens.
You are not a prosecutor you were a successful plaintiffs civil litigant in this case but if you were do you think under Wisconsin law or perhaps federal law with the evidence that you've now presented to the public.
Do you think there was criminality in this conspiracy sir.
It's really hard for me to say create I you know I I've never been a criminal practitioner I've never been a prosecutor I've never been on the inside of making decisions like that and what goes into them.
So it's really not for me to say what I can say is that you know I trust the Wisconsin Department of Justice and I trust the district attorney here in Dane County to make these decisions and you know it is my understanding.
And has been you know we presented to them even before we filed the civil case we presented to them evidence of what we knew at that time and I have every reason to expect continuing to follow the news and continuing to see what's out there and that they're doing they're doing their jobs to the best of their ability.
I have one of the civil litigants that settled with your firm and your plaintiffs Bob Spendell is a Wisconsin elections commissioner was it ever negotiated or considered in your negotiations that he should resign from that position.
This looks a lot like a confession to us Jeff but not trying to put words in your mouth was that ever discussed with this particular litigant.
That wasn't part of the settlement I certainly I certainly share your your view that the that that what happened here as I've said several times is in chemical with the fundamental principles of our democracy and with our functioning as a democracy and I think it's deeply disappointing and disturbing that we have a member of the Wisconsin elections commission that was engaged in such activity.
I will note that even after became clear that Mr. Spendell was one of the fraudulent electors and has engaged in this conduct Senate majority leader Devon Lemmehue reappointed him to the elections commission.
Jeff and Dell hold tight we want to talk more about the gerrymandering the redistricting.
The big and tall the devil's advocates.
Welcome back to the devil's advocates radio show if you missed any of this fine program go online to civic media. US click on the shows tab you can find all the interviews and podcasts from the devil's advocates radio.
Dominic we got the news breaker he is Jeff Mandel from law forward we appreciate the generosity of his time he's sticking around.
Not only has he successfully settled on behalf of his plaintiffs a lawsuit against the fake Trump electors and that will be an ongoing lawsuit against cheese brawl and Jim Troopers but Jeff your firm is intimately involved in the arguments behind the redistricting case the gerrymandering case the only way I know how to describe it sir.
The Wisconsin Supreme court has heard oral arguments.
Should we be waiting on pins and needles should we be expecting some sort of a ruling in the foreseeables future here Jeff.
I think we should be expecting something fairly imminently I the holiday season there's a lot going on I wouldn't expect that something will be tomorrow or even next week but I think that in the next several weeks by.
Sometime in mid January at the latest I expect that we're going to hear from the court and I expect that we're going to hear good news which is I expect the court is going to state that the maps that we currently have for our state legislature are unconstitutional.
One of the reasons I expect that is that we had the argument shortly before Thanksgiving and nobody none of the defendants none of the justices who express skepticism of the case.
The the more conservative justices no one said the maps are constitutional there were arguments that they didn't like the way the case was framed or they didn't like the timing or they didn't like this or they didn't like that but nobody really argued that the maps are constitutional and it's because plainly they're not.
And Jeff let's draw distinction if we could we have really three types of maps that could possibly be affected we have the assembly maps three assembly districts make up a state senate district in the state of Wisconsin that is the Wisconsin legislative maps and then we also have congressional maps this current.
A litigation is really about the legislative maps if I understand correctly Jeff and the congressional maps would be unaffected.
That's correct so this this is about the assembly and the state senate maps that make up our our legislature and are governed by our state constitution and the requirements that are in that the congressional maps are slightly different because.
They also you know the those are maps for the eight members that Wisconsin sends to the United States House of Representatives and so those are governed a federal law as well and this is a case that's about state law.
Jeff here becomes the question if I understood the oral arguments and seemingly the quandary of some of the justices that might be willing to overturn the existing maps.
The question becomes who draws them and do state senators that one reelection two years ago have to face reelection again apparently even justice pro to say which took some acknowledgement that that might strike some as a harsh remedy.
So what is you know if you had to read the tea leaves with this Jeff what is the ideal scenario from your point of view would it be a recasting of all all 33 of the senate districts all 99 of the assembly districts is everybody got to be on the ballot next year.
Well let's be clear that every time we have an even number year in Wisconsin all 99 members of the assembly are up for election so that's just a given and half of the senate is up for election in any given year so in any given even number year so that so regardless of what happens with the maps there are 115 members of the legislature who are up for election next year.
The question is whether what we have asked for what are what are clients have asked for in this case is that the additional 17 senators also be up for for reelection I don't think that's particularly extreme we're not talking about hundreds of extra elections or anything like that.
And why is it that we think that that should happen it's because the the maps have been so extremely germinated we have the most extreme partisan gerrymander in the United States here in Wisconsin and we've had it now for a dozen years and it didn't it it denies the people of Wisconsin fundamental democracy it denies our democracy the feedback mechanisms that are supposed to make it work where what the people want and there are a lot of people in the United States.
People want and their opinions matter to their representatives and therefore get reflected in policy we don't have that because the maps that we've had for the last 12 years are about the elected officials choosing their voters in a way that the voters have no meaningful way to choose or affect their elected officials because of that because that that extreme gerrymander has distorted Wisconsin's politics for so long.
We believe it shouldn't be allowed to persist one day more and to make sure that that true we think that once there are new maps that are fair and accord with the Constitution that all members of the legislature should have to run for election under those maps as soon as possible because to allow half the Senate to remain in office for another two years under that gerrymander is to mean that the Senate still won't have another two years where the Senate is not.
Half of the Senate the very least is not accountable to voters and that can't be allowed.
Jeff Mandel from law for just a few more minutes Jeff what was the philosophy behind the original jurisdiction going directly to the Wisconsin Supreme Court versus some other courts I'm glad you did glad they heard it but what what was your thought there.
I mean the thought Dom is just that this case is so crucial as I said just a moment ago we've lived in Wisconsin under the gerrymander maps for a dozen years and every single day that they continue to be in effect is in a front to democracy and to the voters of Wisconsin and the only way to move this case quickly enough to get relief in time for the 2024 election was to go straight to the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
I know that's become something that has become it's become almost common in the last few years we saw so much of it since governor evers took office the legislature and conservative interest groups have just repeatedly run to the Wisconsin Supreme Court because they believed it would do its bidding this is the first time that I've ever filed or been directly involved in filing an original action and we've got other cases that we think are incredibly important but we have not.
There was original actions because we think moving through the court system in an orderly way has real value and importance but here in this one instance the only way to ensure that new maps in time for the 2024 elections was to go straight to the Supreme Court and so we did.
And Jeff if the Wisconsin Supreme Court comes back in your favor in our favor new maps to be drawn is that the end of it for here in the state of Wisconsin there's another step the US Supreme Court something else could happen.
Well there's another step in the Wisconsin Supreme Court which is that I expected that relatively soon we will get a ruling that the maps are unconstitutional but then we're going to need to create new maps and that's another step in the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
I do not expect that we will have another court the US Supreme Court weighing in here because as I said earlier these are purely questions of the Wisconsin Constitution means and when we talk about the Wisconsin Constitution it is the Wisconsin Supreme Court that gets the final word word.
When we talk about questions of federal law or the United States Constitution the US Supreme Court gets the final word but here we're talking about the state Constitution and the state Supreme Court is the end of the road.
Okay we've got one minute left Jeff final question let's assume new maps coming new maps drawn Republicans of course are not going to like the new maps they appeal.
Does that delay it drag it out beyond the time frame that would allow for the recasting.
I don't I don't think it should there's always that possibility and nobody can stop them from going to the US Supreme Court and asking them to take the case.
No one can ask stop them from asking the Supreme Court to hold the maps off while they consider taking the case.
I don't expect that either of those will work. I think that we're going to have new maps in Wisconsin for 2024.
Well let's put while we were ahead. Jeff Pantell law forward thank you so much for joining us on a very busy day.
Uh Jeff thanks a lot man. Thank you Jeff. Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Folks more Devils phone lines there open toll free for you 844-96 party.
The devil's advocates making radio right again.
Look back to the Devils advocates radio show them breaking news Wednesday happier happy hour rolling through it.
Time to shout at the Devils that them up 844-972789 you know.
You know you can also text us during the course of this fine program we get them we read them.
Sometimes we read them aloud on the air here's one this one I find important.
So Dom his crudies emergency food let's be real he's a masochist and in a purge scenario sadly.
No diet Mountain Dew he needs to eat Dom get that fiery gut acid.
You're right on with that assessment camp from you know.
There was a question asked here who spent the 4th of July 2018 in Moscow.
That's a Senator Ron Johnson US Senator Ron Johnson who in tandem with Mike Lee and other of their ilk.
Blocked a resolution today that would have funded or a financial I don't know what it's called it was in the Senate.
And there were a hundred plus billion dollars in aid Ukraine and Israel.
And they killed it.
Because Ron didn't get his.
Not on the Southern even though they haven't passed anything agreed anything on the border.
Here's another one.
I have to clean this one up for radio.
Jeff from Charwood says call the attorney general is a and let's just say rhymes with wussy kitty cat.
He's a kitty cat on devils could Andrew hit or others with a law license be disciplined.
Absolutely no Andrew hit is a practicing attorney in the state of Wisconsin.
Hell he's on the website of Michael Beston Friedrich one of the biggest political law firms Republican in the state.
He's like their senior political director.
Former Republican party chairman of the state of Wisconsin.
And now I realize this was a civil action.
We never really press Jeff Mandel on this.
But they did not admit fault as most civil actions do.
But I mean, this is a conspiracy.
And you know, Jeff might not be a prosecutor, but I play one on the radio occasionally.
And I think this is a conspiracy.
Dom and many of the fine lawyers that do practice in the criminal field have shared our opinion.
Well, we have three other states.
Georgia Michigan and as announced today Nevada are prosecuting their fraudulent conspiratorial electors.
But somehow they get off with a non civil forfeiture civil settlement.
Sorry, my bad won't do it again.
I don't even say they're sorry, right?
But they just won't do it again.
And they're going to retract and you know, the documents Biden one.
Biden won't be tough for him to say actually.
No offense to our fine guest, Jeff Mandel and his team over at law forward.
Obviously the civil litigation moves forward against cheese, bro.
And Jim Troopers and I think those were the ring leaders.
So ultimately, if there's going to be some civil light building, some price to pay,
I hope the right guys pays pay that price.
Look, because those guys have, I mean, they have, they have, you know, criminal cases going on.
Yes, they do.
Yeah. So you can't admit any sort of guilt in a civil case.
Wouldn't that screw your, your criminal case?
You know what I mean?
So it depends on, I would say a cheese bro has been very, very sort of, uh,
he's out there settling what he can.
Yeah. He's cleaning up the record.
He's already settled in the state of Georgia.
My understanding is, uh, what he's, he's already made overtures to the federal.
And obviously he's not going to sign off on some sort of financial settlement.
He's not going to throw money on the table.
They didn't offer him a settlement.
I suspect yet cheese, bro.
Because the truth coming out is really about exposing the plot, the ring leaders.
And, you know, Andrew hit.
Yes.
I think he should be put up ethically under the state bar.
And he should have to answer for what I alleged would be his crimes.
But he's not convicted.
And I suspect or at least I fear much like Donald Trump being put on ballots because he is not yet convicted of insurrection.
And the fourth, uh, 14th amendment, not yet, uh, kicking in per se.
I think that hit would make some sort of similar plea before, you know, the, the bar association and say, well, I haven't been convicted of anything yet.
And I'm cooperating witness apparently reportedly with Jack Smith.
And, uh, I somehow talked my way out of testifying in the civil forfeiture case of the devil's advocates for entering a locked building.
The same week that the false Trump electors did at the Wisconsin State Capitol.
You know, they tried to, they tried to hold us more accountable than the false Trump electors.
Yeah, of course they did.
What should we have brought an armed arm d'armada with us?
If we'd had the guy with pistolas, would we've gotten less grief from the, the, the Christmas Carol singing Republicans that tried to have us arrested that day?
I'm looking at you, she's sort well. I'm looking at you, Tim Rantham.
Rantham, Ram Jam.
Ram Jam.
I forgot about that dude.
He's your buddy.
He was a governor.
He had that, that right.
I'm the strength of our nearer rust.
He had the bright red sweater, man.
He just could not stand the fact that we were there mocking their maskless Christmas Carolings.
Before we get to the callers and we appreciate your patient's colors.
844-967-2789.
Little local. Let's not forget big GOP debate tonight for a second.
Yeah.
Because the dictator in chief, he, he made his mark and Iowa last night.
I want to be in a dictator on day one.
Uh, that's what Trump said.
Yes.
And I would love to see a few of our conservative friends defend that dictator on day one sentiment.
But here in the great state of Wisconsin.
Dom, we have an endorsement alert.
Uh-oh.
Prior to the big GOP debate tonight.
Wisconsin Senate leader Devon, uh,
man, you.
Beck's Nikki Haley over Trump in the Republican primary.
Republican party is in disarray.
He must want his house act.
And I'm not suggesting we would do that.
I'm just saying there are a few magas that aren't going to like this choice.
Um, a top Wisconsin Republican prefers former United Nations had bastard Nikki Haley in the 2024 Republican primary for president, calling her less polarizing than the former president.
Who's leading the polling race by double digits.
Senate majority leader, Devon, uh,
man, you told the Milwaukee Journal sent all he thinks Haley would be a nice contrast to Joe Biden.
But.
And again, I quote, let me you.
But, you know, my endorsements haven't worked well in the past.
So I've not endorsing people.
He joked about the previous statewide candidates.
He endorsed who did not win their races.
It's up to the Republican voters to decide their primary.
Both leaders of the Republican control state legislature are not backing Trump.
But Robin Voss is not down for Trump.
Just because he came to.
Walker Shaw and campaign for his primary opponent, Adam Steen,
endorse Adam Steen, endorse Janelle branching and, uh, sick Gableman on him.
Somehow he's going to hold that against me.
Come on.
Where's the loyalty?
Well, that's what Robin Voss would like to know.
The personal loyalty to Voss.
He is the boss, right?
Voss Voss, eight, four, four, nine, six, seven, two, seven, eight, nine, Gary.
From Sussex, you are up. Welcome, Gary.
What do you got for us today?
Hey, Gary.
Hey, guys.
All right.
I got two comments.
Okay.
I called about this guy that you have on this lawyer.
Japan Delph from law forward.
Yes.
Um, I think that the, um, I'm not a lawyer.
I, I'm sure he's more intelligent in law than I am.
I can fix a furnace.
I bet you he can't.
But when it comes to law, I believe that he's probably smarter than I am.
But I, I tend to differ on a couple of different things that he said.
One of the things is, first of all, the law, the, the constitution of Wisconsin says,
the party who is in power gets the right, the, the, the, you know, the boundaries.
That wasn't the question before the court, though.
The questions before the court were about contiguous, uh, which is in the Wisconsin constitution.
You can't break off parts of a district and have these floating parts, which we have lots of currently.
And the other question is, least change maps.
You remember the whole least change, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled how to use the least change maps.
And whose maps were least changed?
Tony Evers.
And in fact, the maps that we have utilized were vetoed by the governor of the state of Wisconsin.
And we do have a separation of powers clause, which says effectively,
you can't utilize the same maps that the governor is vetoed.
So those are the two pleadings before the court.
The other one you made is not a question before the court currently, Gary.
Okay.
But the point that I'm making is they do the maps, uh, the Republicans, whether they're fair or not.
Yeah, they're responsible for these gerrymandered pieces of you know what, Gary.
All right.
So he's saying that he believes before the 2024 election, there's no way in hell that these maps are going to be changed before that.
If you draw blocks and don't have to pick every house by house on every block area, it makes it a lot more efficient.
You'd be shocked how easy it is to draw a square district.
I'm sure he also said, which I'm, I'm heckling.
I'm sure you guys were heckling to when he said, I think that all everybody should be up for elections because.
Yeah, they do have a right for another couple of years, but I think that I think the make it fair.
We should have everybody all up for a new election.
Well, if you believe the legal arguments before the court that these maps are so agregious that they leave an unconstitutional.
We don't have one man, one vote in the state of Wisconsin. If you believe they're so agregious, they must be recast by that same logic.
Everyone must run for reelection according to Jeff Mandel.
Well, this is insane.
And you know that he's crazy devil.
Well, I mean, come on.
But Gary, I mean, what were you talking about 115 or something along already going to be up every single legislator in the assembly is going to be up and half the senators.
We're talking 16 or 17 races across the state.
Additional races.
That's what I'm saying. It's only 16 more.
It's only going to happen.
But Gary, it's only 16 more.
Well, okay, so you're saying the time frame won't work out.
I mean, we'll have to wait and see. Gary, do you do you think the maps are righteous?
You think those are good maps? What do you, what do you think of the legal arguments against them?
I think they're excellent for Republicans.
I really do.
I think that they're excellent for it.
So yes, I'm very happy with the maps.
Okay, but do you, but do you, would you want those maps drawn by Democrats to give Democrats?
Like do you want, if it was, you know, Illinois, for example, or some other, you know, progressive or democratic run state with such extreme gerrymated.
Would you then also say that's great for the Dems that I want to keep them that way?
Heck no.
Okay, well, at least you're consistent, Gary.
We appreciate it.
And eight, four, four, nine, six.
Just looking for a little intellectual honesty around here.
Eight, nine.
It's hard to come by sometimes.
CJ, you're next welcome. What do you got for us?
Thank you guys for taking my calls.
You know, I get where you guys are coming from.
But, you know, these things were passed without the legislature's approval.
What was passed?
Constitutional.
What was passed without the legislature's approval?
I don't know what you're talking about, CJ.
Okay, the, you know, it's one thing that discuss our state electoral college and changing it like you are.
I don't know how many votes or how many representatives it's going to increase for Milwaukee.
It doesn't change your electoral college.
Okay, CJ, let me clarify a point.
The electoral college is based on how many federal officers we send to DC.
We have eight congresspeople.
Each one represents an electoral.
We have two senators.
So the state of Wisconsin has ten electors with or without the redrawing of maps.
We will continue to have ten electors.
Are we clear on that point, CJ?
I can hear you now.
We're going to continue to have ten electors.
The question is whether or not the state legislative maps are so egregiously jerrymandered that you don't get fair representation.
I don't get fair representation.
I mean, there's got to be some Republicans doing some stuff that you know is just jackassery, right?
I mean, I would point you towards Tim Grantham and Janelle Branchan.
It's not just about that.
It's the fact that things were done to allow this.
And I'm talking about voting in the last couple of years.
Yes, the map should be addressed.
But I agree with that.
But it's going to screw up the electoral college.
And remember, um, election.
CJ, I appreciate that we have agreement on something.
But again, sir, I don't mean to throw it in your face.
But the recasting of state legislative maps have zero impact on the electoral college math for the presidency of the United States.
Zero.
We had ten before. We'll have ten after.
They're still cast as a state.
One candidate wins the state of Wisconsin in the general election.
Probably going to be Joe Biden.
I would predict, but we'll see.
But if Donald Trump wins, it's not like he's got to win ten different districts in the state of Wisconsin.
You might be thinking of a state like Nebraska, I believe.
They break out their congressional districts and you could theoretically win an oddball delegate from the state of Nebraska,
even though probably going as a red state, a blue delegate could be cast.
But that doesn't happen here in the state of Wisconsin.
CJ, all we would get is fair representation at the Capitol.
Maybe.
Come back.
Your calls could be next.
844-967-2789.
The devil's advocates.
Political commentary from the back of the class.
And we are back.
Thank you for listening to the devil's advocates radio show our less segment of the day.
If you got something to say, hit us up right now at 844-967-2789.
Now we've got a busy text line, people texting in with a lacquer tea.
Here's a few.
Any of the people involved in the fake electoral conspiracy with the settlement admission of guilt,
they should lose any professional licenses, including law licenses.
I concur even a barber's license.
You should lose a doll.
It's all gone.
All your professional credentials.
Here's a few more.
The maps are not marked from the sack.
We know this is his big one.
The maps are not in compliance with the constitutional requirement.
And you know, he's serious here.
Boys, because he used all caps.
The constitutional requirement of contiguous and compact Gary C.J.
And all caps here, fellas.
Read the Wisconsin Constitution.
And then there's one from Kurt from Madison.
Gary and C.J.
Dumb and Dumber.
Kurt.
That's what Kurt said.
I didn't say that about our finalists.
That's right.
We love our audience.
All of them.
How far do the maps go down?
Wood County districts and local municipalities districts have to change question, Mark.
Well, you know, it's funny because the maps are actually supposed to be drawn after the municipalities establish.
It's supposed to be.
They're boundaries.
These are called the tiger maps.
And we know from our prior research, Dumb, in 2014, took us like a year and a half to get all the information out of the former government accountability board.
But here in the state of Wisconsin, specifically the congressional maps were unconstitutional.
Yes.
And how did we know that, Dumb?
It was right there in black and white in the GAP reports.
And they said, basically, they had to go clean up the messes of these humorous Republicans.
That started with incorrect tiger maps, T, R, Y, G, E, something like that tiger.
They'd used the wrong maps.
They hadn't waited for the municipality to actually accurately cast their boundaries.
They wanted to get started with their unconstitutional cherry man.
It was quite an undertaking.
And they effectively left communities in the wrong districts.
They had used incorrect top of graphical maps.
So we knew that these maps were were crap to start from.
And I talking about the congressional maps.
Right.
And we never really saw that litigated properly.
But, you know, these state maps, they're a joke.
How do I know they're a joke?
Because Robin Voss is still the speaker of these.
844-967-2789, Wiscoe Paul.
You are up.
Welcome, Paul.
What do you got?
Paul.
Thank you.
Afternoon, Devils.
I happen to believe in democracy.
And democracy means fair maps.
And even when we get fair maps in this state, I do believe that Republicans will still control the Senate and the Senate.
I think they would have a modest advantage because there are more rural districts, just geographically.
I think the Republicans would still have a slight advantage.
But, I mean, if they keep running the way they're running and trumps the top of the ticket man, this could be a blue tsunami.
We could take, we could take the Senate and the assembly back.
But that would be a rarity.
I still think, like you, Paul, the maps would still be slightly to the advantage of Republicans.
Well, what the Republicans did with these maps, they wanted a veto-proof majority where Tony wouldn't be able to veto anything.
And that was the idea behind this.
And it's not right.
And if you look at these lines, a snake couldn't crawl down them.
It's a sad situation.
But hey, I'm so happy that we're probably more than likely going to get fair maps before the next election.
Because I'll finally have a say in something the way it's rigged out here, you just have to.
And it doesn't really do any good.
I call my assemblyman and my state senator, but they just kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they don't have any fear.
And that goes in some of the democratic districts also.
If you, no matter what you do, if you don't have any fear about losing your seat, that just isn't right.
So CJ and the gentleman from Sussex to get on board with fair maps.
So, hey, you guys have a great day and thanks for your show.
Well, thank you, Paul.
You're welcome for our show.
Thanks for being a fan.
I think to, to their credit, I think if nothing else, CJ and Gary from Sussex recognize the maps.
Well, as they're not proper.
Gary as much as confessed, he likes the maps because they don't play fair for the advantage of his team.
Right.
And, and I did hear CJ acknowledge that he does think something should be done about the maps, but then had some other quandary with absentee ballots or something went down a rabbit hole.
844-967-2789, Jack from the Mac, you are welcome, Jack.
What do you got?
Jack?
You know, guys like CJ and Gary, they need to be asked two questions before they even begin to start talking about this journey matter issue.
The first question is, do you believe honestly, truly, honestly believe that the election in 2020 was fair and legal?
And the answer to that one will tell you whether or not they're in touch with reality.
The second question that you have to answer them is, if the governor and the legislature can't agree on the maps or
redistricting, do you think that this should be handled by a nonpartisan group or do you think one should be chosen over the other?
Well, they hear Robin Voss say, well, we get to pick the maps.
We control the legislature by virtue of the drink maps.
You know, so there's no way they're going to concede the point check.
I don't believe because of course their sides never going to concede an inch.
There's no concession here.
There was no concession even in the plaintiff's settlement with the false Trump electors here in the state of Wisconsin.
Again, Jeff Mandela, find guest.
If you missed the interview, please do yourself a favor and go find the podcast at the civic media.
But no real real confession.
They may have laid out the facts in their settlement, but they didn't take any responsibility.
I won't do it again.
Biden won in 2020, I think.
I believe Cody in the three in the 30 years prior to the maps being redrawn to what we have today with under walker and the Republicans.
They were contested maps and they were ultimately a court detour.
Courts drew the maps every 10 years because that was almost a foregone conclusion.
Folks, this show, a foregone conclusion, but you're not going to leave yet.
You got Maggie Dawn talked about sharp legal mind.
She's got the sharpest.
She's next to Maggie Dawn show.
And then the empowered caregiver with Lisa Helen brand.
I know she's got a big show stacked as well.
And we just had one the other day.
We're going to teach Waba doing the night light to new feature across the civic media network starts eight to 10 p.m.
Central time.
Catch him.
You know, check your local listings.
And tomorrow down, I won't have you here by my side, but we're still going to do the greatest radio show ever.
That is our pledge to you each and every day.
Best radio we can make promise.
