There it is, bus depensals fully, let it education talk, educated, educators talking, education,
Dr. Johnny Lupinati, Jacob Chairman of the Board, me, Dr. Tim Slecker, and it is class,
as in session, going to do some learning and actually just lots of stuff to bring in because
Johnny and Jacob, you know, one of our favorite guests who introduced us to all the cool things
going out in the cease a for region of Wisconsin, and for anybody who's going, what is that?
Out out in the woods in rural Wisconsin, holy crap, who knew what they were doing out there?
Nobody knew except for the good people doing that, and when we found out we're like, man,
we got to spread the story of what's happening, and our first person who helped us do that is our
guest today, welcome back to Busted Pencils, Brittany Walls, CISA 4, liftoffs, LinkedIn, man, you know,
turned us on to some great guests from leaders in the school district, but welcome back to Busted
Pencils, how are you? Good, thanks for having me back, I was trying to remember like how many times
is this number three? I wouldn't say it's at least three if not four.
All right, yeah, we've come a long ways in those four times.
There's, well, it really is, you know, I mean, what's happening with you guys, you know, like,
when, you know, we have Mike Biglion, right, to talk about the things that are happening there,
it's really, really exciting because, you know, I made the comparison, and you know, you and I
have talked about this offline a couple times, but it's like, hey, McKenzie Price, Alpha School,
they're doing really cool stuff, it's $40,000 a year, and you know what, and everybody's like,
he, well, yeah, look what they can do for $40,000 a year, and we've been saying, yeah,
you want to see what they can do in public schools? Check out these four liftoffs and your partners
there, Brittany, I mean, you know, and that's why we want to keep bringing you guys on so much,
is to point out that public school, public rural school, you guys can do all kinds of stuff when you
have, you know, visionaries and leaders like, like you and Mike and all of the other things, but
so liftoffs, what's going on with liftoffs? Give us the news. Yeah, well, I mean, first,
we are literally, we just realized we're like, wow, we just celebrated a year anniversary, you know,
December 6th, we brought it together like 50 educators and principals and you're like, hey, we
have this crazy idea, you know, bear with us, are you ready for this? And we were just so blessed
to have those teachers like say, yes, we are going to full trust in you, we are building the
plane while we are flying it quite literally, there is no playbook for innovation and education,
really there isn't. And so we really thought like, if this is good for rural schools and
rural students and it's working for our teachers and our communities, why the heck should we keep
this at CISA 4? And so we just announced ourselves as an educational intermediary, so taking it as
a nonprofit, so that we can actually scale across Wisconsin and any other state and work collaboratively
with other partners, because there are other people across the United States doing just as
incredible things with with their agencies or with their intermediaries. Nice. I mean, so yeah,
remind people too, I mean, you know, liftoffs and, you know, what is it that the, you know,
brief summary liftoffs, what are you doing? Oh, brief summary. Oh, so,
no, really, we talk about it's like really a mindset shift in education. We're breaking the mold
on what traditional education always was, which was time bound, artificial limits on students,
on teachers. We've almost taken the professional autonomy out of teachers by seeing here's this
canned curriculum, follow this script. We know kids are sitting in dust, so disengaged. So
liftoffs was just really looking at education in a new way. So really, really highlighting
one of the core competencies that kids really need to be good human beings and how can we rebuild
education around the things that AI is not good at? Like creativity, empathy, human connection,
critical thinking. If those are really our core foundations of education, how can we rebuild a
system that actually values those things? So using AI, using platforms to provide some of that
like basic tier one instruction so that the teachers are freed up to actually do more project
base learning, more interdisciplinary connectedness, more hands-on, more, you know, youth apprenticeship
models. So that's in a nutshell, what liftoffs is is really just a mindset shift and more
professional support and a framework for districts to follow. Man, see, Johnny, you know,
yeah, Tim, you're always, we, Tim's come a long way, Brittany, convincing me, you know, to,
to at least attend services at the church of AI, which he attends. And, and I know we've talked a lot
of busted pencils about, you know, that educators are showing us really great examples of ways that
AI can be a tool for both teaching and learning. And together, we can figure out some really creative
and innovative ways that, you know, make teaching, you know, like you said, creative, personal,
relationship-based, and that AI helps spring, you know, a dimension to that, to that process.
Can you share with our listeners and us, you know, some of your favorite stories of recent,
where, you know, where teachers have been able to have that aha moment where they're like,
yeah, this is actually some pretty cool stuff. Yeah, so I mean, I, the list is endless.
From, we obviously would have just gone through our winter benchmarking. So just hearing teachers
like, holy cow, I didn't actually think that this was going to work, but seeing that I have 50 points
average growth on my star assessment, right? That's one. But that teacher also implemented something
called the building thinking classrooms. We have another teacher who got a fab lab grant. And so
she has her students on Alex Math for a very small chunk of time within her middle school classroom.
And then the rest of the time, the kids are actually in the fab lab engaging in the design process.
So I was in there the other day, and the kids created, they were 3D printing roses, where they
were actually going to then start an entrepreneurial business and showcase those roses at the local
quick trip. So showing how there can be those bridges with community, with schools. I mean,
the list is endless. I think it's just walking into classrooms and seeing kids engaged. And it's
not like this, I'm sitting and listening to my teacher talk at me, but I'm actually the invested
learner here in this classroom. I think that's from all the way down from kindergarten, all the way up
seniors in high school really reclaiming what does it look like and feel like to be in the
driver's seat of education. I love that. And you know, for so many of of us often, you know,
late-comers to the AI discussion, it's immediately we hear AI, we think, oh, chat GPT or just,
you know, staring at a screen. And you know, what you're talking about here is so much more of an
embracement of technology as a tool mediating really great relationships between teachers and
their students. So I love that you're helping us broaden by us. I mean, Johnny, on the side of the
the educators who are like, wait, AI, isn't that that chatbot that the kids ask to cheat on their
homework? You know, no, it's actually so much more in the way that technology can really radically
reshape, you know, the way that we do schools and focused around relationships like you were talking
about. Brittany, I love that because it's broadening our understanding of AI. So how can you just,
you did in your story, you explained that, but I think maybe just being so close to it, you guys
see it differently. For our listener, who is like me thinking, oh, AI, that means chat GPT. Can
you just kind of give a 101 like the differences between the tools, I know, as a math teacher,
Alex, like these are really tools that aren't new and that really help to, you know, strengthen
learning and individualized learning plans. Yeah, absolutely. So there's anything from Alex math,
which obviously is not really AI for kids, but it's AI on the teacher side, right? Like literally
able to create pathways and individualized instruction all the way down to some of the
creativeness, like some children didn't know vocabulary terms. They were working with their
English curriculum and really struggling with vocabulary terms. So the teacher just plugged
those vocabulary terms and said, for each child, what are you interested in? Give me your
three interests in life. And then boom, they had an individualized poem for every single kid and
the word was feral. Like no one could understand what does feral mean? Like what does that mean?
And it's like once you started to hear that in a sentence. And so we think of this like idea of
personalized learning like kids are on a screen, kind of probably like the alpha school, right?
Like that's teaching them, but AI is just truly about even giving the teachers a tool to individualize
it for the students. There's, I mean, there's tools, but I feel like the term emerging technology
is not getting enough kind of like cloud or showcase. It's really the word AI, but emerging
technology in terms of what we are doing to prepare our children for the future is far more
expansive than just AI. Oh, I love that. I love that. I'm going to be using that term more often.
Emerging technologies that puts AI to use because it's pretty powerful. And thanks, Brittany,
for sharing it because it really complicates in a helpful way that discussion of how are we using
AI in schools? And most listeners, I mean, even myself, I think, oh, I can't even imagine how
annoying that must be in the classroom. But it's really the way that that emerging technology
is integrating AI tools into it to really empower teachers and students.
Johnny, but you know, and yeah, wow, you sounds like you might be going to the confessional at
my church pretty soon here. You know, I don't know. But what really comes across here, though,
too, is that, okay, it's AI, emerging technologies, whatever it is. The reality here, though,
is the human centered. And they have this on their website. But the whole idea of
actually questioning and in one way, tearing apart the status quo of what it means to go to school,
that's not AI-driven. That's humans with leadership and vision that are saying, you know what,
man, school just isn't working in that way. Great. We've got a new technology. We're going to use
that and it's going to help us. But to me, it really comes down to the reason why I get so excited
about this is because it demonstrates that with bold visionary leadership from people, you know,
alive people, you know, not Android and stuff, AI pretty much sits there motionlessly, you know,
faceless with nothing. It's when people feel and see an opportunity of going, you know, we always,
and I've said this too, this is where I say it's like, man, I always wanted to individualize
instruction. But man, it was hard, you know, and it still is hard. But AI gives us this ability,
Brittany, you gave that great example, you know, and I always take, break it down into, you know,
when I was teaching fifth grade and I had kids reading at the second grade level all the way up
through the eighth grade level, you know, 25 kids, individualizing instruction. Hey, guess what?
We tried it, but now like I could have taken those reading passages very simply and just simply
said, hey, you know, take this down a little bit to a second grade reading level. And this is
the part I really like what you did. And based on the fact that I'm going to give this to Brittany and
she loves golf, let's throw a little golfing into this and there you go, right, the personalized,
that's what we're talking about, Brittany. Yeah, absolutely. And I would read that if it was
about golf at any time, right? No, and I think like it seems so simple. It seems like such a like
switch. But honestly, like Wisconsin public schools, we lost almost $700 million in vouchers last year.
And so with 66, I believe million going to just two virtual learning academies. So I think,
you know, we need to step back and say like, how can we human center and really truly maximize
everyone's human capacity in the system itself? So a part of liftoffs isn't just the AI, right?
It's about empowering the educators to become those professionals that have that professional
agency and autonomy to do its best for their kids and really truly get to know them. Because at the
end of the day, we just ask our educators, who do you want your kids to be when they leave Whitehall
or Eliva or Elma Wisconsin? And those really should be those north stars that we that carry us
through, right? That like you do everything in our power to get kids to be that way and not
this robot that can regurgitate that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, right? Like I'm
sure you guys all know that, right? Great. Yeah. I was I was just actually thinking about that.
I'm sure. Yes.
Yeah. And that's, you know, again, that that's where it really, you know, comes home and you know,
you made a comment too. Test score gains, right? And I can hear somebody go, oh, you know,
so, you know, typically somebody said, well, you want to raise test scores, you know, we got to do
a whole bunch of extra tutoring test prep and stuff like that. And boy, I'm never going to have
time to be a cool teacher because I'm spending so much time on test prep. I'm here and you going
on like, but, but our teachers have even more agency now. Yeah. The test scores, you know, it was
one of those conversations of like, you know, we obviously know standardized tests are almost
an outdated measure of what success looks like. Like if we're truly redefining what schools look
like, we also have to redefine what success looks like for kids. And so yes, that's maybe not on
a standardized test. But I think standardized testing keeps us honest and keeps keeps us getting
feedback that we know is what we need to keep moving us. And I mean, obviously, people want to
see that. I know our teachers do because it's been like such a thing that they have been put in
front of like, you have to get these test scores. So I think like just, I've been doing some
preliminary data, just test scores are coming in from many of our schools. And one of our ELA teachers
who embraced who embraced course Mojo in her ELA class, it was one of the lowest performing classes
in the school district and eighth graders ELA, right? Eighth grade boys ELA class probably not
typically like the place you want to be as of late as of this morning, her gain was 57% growth.
So I'm pretty incredible. I mean, pretty incredible to see because she's also really,
really putting the human skills in the center of her class, like collaboration and communication
hands on deeper levels of learning for her kids. See, Johnny, I told you, man, like I said, I've
been attending services. And I've seen like this stuff really working. And part of it is,
you know, what Brittany shared and what the great guests we've had on, we're saying, hey, here's
how this is making our schools better, who are strengthening, you know, student learning,
but also just community when we're talking about when our public schools get stronger, right?
Our whole community gets stronger. And that's essentially what we're doing here is sort of,
you know, like opening it up, saying if we find something that works, how do we share that? How do
we, you know, get that word out? How can we be a story that, you know, empowers communities
all over? So Brittany, thanks for what you share, you know, and thanks for your whole lift-offs team,
these four, everyone who's been guests on busted pencils, but especially for the teachers and
the students who have given this a go and who are saying, hey, this really works, right? Those
stories mean so much. You know, and with that, though, too, and it kind of come back, you know,
trying to also take the opportunity to address what this is versus what it's not, because I think
sometimes, in fact, Brittany, I'm referring to the presentation you just did yesterday. So when
people hear about, you know, technology in the schools, AI and stuff, it automatically then gets
lumped into, you know, just excessive screen time. And, you know, Johnny, and I just did an
episode, too, on, you know, the rise in loneliness and of kids all through our K-12 system,
and showing a really strong link to screen time, and for people who are listening, so that they
don't get the sense of, oh, so lift-offs is, you know, all about that. Tell us the difference,
because you were making the presentation, and it was fact the digital dilemma, raising and supporting
kids in a tech-saturated world, help people understand why what lift-offs is doing is not
the same thing as excessive, wasteful, depressing screen time.
I mean, absolutely, there's multiple things there, but really at the heart of it is,
we put devices into kids' laps throughout the K-12 education system as a response to obviously
this increase in technology across, and thinking that was the best practice without really giving
any thought to like the technology and how we were using it. So typically teachers are using
technology merely as a replacement for paper pencil, right? Taking a quiz, writing a paper,
so a lot of the ways that we're using technology is all passive in our school system.
What we're really stepping back and saying is we want to be intentional with the use of technology.
How can we on really uncover and on tap those future-ready skills? Because we know that like
the world economic forum is saying like the number one skill kids need is AI and big data,
and you know, cybersecurity and networks. So how can we really start to have technology
as and put it into the active driver's seat? So things like coding, things like makerspace,
tinker cats, design drones, all these things, right? The emerging technology piece versus technology
just being used as that replacement. And honestly, the word technology has gotten such a bad
rap with these Jen's ears because it's just social media. It's not screen time. Like you and I
sitting here on a computer, it is the social media that's really the cause for concern with our kids.
Yeah, that's it is to know, like yeah, liftoffs is not giving kids more and more access to Facebook.
But I mean, you know, and that's why again, we want to have the show and we like to get this out
there because we really, you know, our neighbor, when they hear about the damaging effects of screen time,
and then they hear us talking to people like you, like Mike Bigley, you know, they might go like,
well, geez, you had one episode where you were bemoaning screen time and then you're having another
episode, and it sounds like you're, you know, lifting off or lifting up a screen time. And
and actually, that's not what's going on in CISA 4 and the schools that you work with and lift
Yeah, correct. I would say it's the exact opposite. It's like how can we get kids to intentionally
use technology and screens and thus it's actually less screen time because we're actually asking
teachers to say we really need to human proof education. Like how are we developing those durable
skills and competencies that kids are going to absolutely need. So I mean, I always equate it to
I think we were talking earlier, Tim, just like the idea of like when the internet came out, like I had,
I have an internet drivers license and I still have it. It's right. It's my, it's a picture for
my sixth grade year, like I had to have this driver's license to even access dial up internet in
Bruce Wisconsin. But nowadays we give kids these devices and a lot of times they're, it's happening
at home and we shut the door and we don't, it's like a playground and there's no supervision for
these kids. And so a part of what we do too is really, really ensuring that at the forefront is
we're giving that AI literacy. So before even kids interact with the conmigo chatbot on con
academy, what AI literacy were they provided to know that it's not a friend that it can make
mistakes that there's bias, right? There's misinformation and hallucinations. So I think we're just
trying to ensure that the kids have the tools and the skills to actually succeed in a world that
we have no idea what it's going to look like and let alone, you know, 30 days let alone five
years from now hallucinations. Oh man, Johnny, no, I'm not saying, you know, but see this is, it's
the, you know, the person the teacher centered the student connections because it really is that
like I think when you said, but you know, less screen time because, you know, to, to do the things
that you're doing actually requires collaboration, you know, Johnny. Well, yeah, and Brittany,
this is exciting. Appreciate your time and for sharing all this and before we hopped on the show,
you were sharing to some success and even though this is relatively young, like you have
some, some indicators that this is working, not just anecdotal stories, which we love here on
Busted Pencils, but you're seeing some, some data return of what's working. And so being a young
organization, this is huge, this is helpful. And would you like to share any of that? Like how you
know it's working? And what are some of the exciting things that you're all learning as an organization?
Yeah, so we actually are super grateful to have the support of the American Institute for Research.
So the AIR, which is obviously such a national landscape for educational research and providing
that data and support, they offered internal grants to the researchers to develop an AI network
within their actual organization to explore and study what does it look like in terms of the
landscape of like plopping AI in K-12 education. So liftoff was lucky enough to partner with three
amazing researchers, independent evaluators with AIR, who are doing rapid cycle evaluations.
So it's not just us looking at, you know, like you said, like the feel good stuff, like that stuff
is great when you walk into classrooms, but the actual data to say it's not just about a screen,
it is about everything else that you are doing that increases student engagement, that increases
teacher efficacy and teacher belongingness in the classroom nowadays. Like actually the feel of like
I could stay in this profession for, you know, however many more years, and I've been in it for 35.
So the stories are great, but like you said, having that partnership really starts to solidify,
and that's why we took this as an intermediary because it shouldn't just be about the students with
these before. Like if this is truly about innovation and education, then we really have to start
thinking about how we can scale that nationwide or at least across the state.
Love it, love it. So Brittany, somebody's listening right now and they're going, I want to do it.
I'm in. I'm so, I mean, where does a teacher or a CISA director or a principal or a superintendent
who's listening is like, okay, I've heard Brittany four times heard Mike Bigley twice and I'm in.
How does somebody start to even begin to move in this direction?
Yeah, well, I mean, we've been at a number of education conferences, so I'm guessing they've
heard us. However, we do have a website. It's just liftoffs with an S and then it's learning.com
or they can send, they can send us an email and my email is pretty easy. It's just be walls at
DSA4.org. We just love to have those honest conversations because this isn't for every district either
and we are 100 percent, we know that, right? Not every community, not every board is ready for this
level of change, but it's this level of change that's going, what's needed in order to kind of
push us into the future and save almost, I hate to say it, but save public education from our
blockbuster moment. I, you know, and that really is it when when you're talking about, you know,
teacher, you know, well-being, belongingness and feeling like that just goes back to, you know,
the research I was doing in 2014-15 that, you know, where I was pushing on saying like, quit
calling it a teacher shortage. The reality is, is that teachers are leaving. It's an exodus and every,
you know, 90 percent of the 450 plus teachers I interviewed back in 2017 and 18, you know,
they, when I asked, well, what would make you stay? It came down to, you know, I want to,
I want to be allowed to teach. I want to have agency and that's what it's not really the AI
that you guys are doing that really excites me. What excites me is the sense of changing the narrative
back to teachers being leaders, principles being leaders, superintendents,
making school public schools in particularly, too. This is the other thing. You know what? I mean,
I always hated the competition narrative that's like, well, you need school choice. I don't
make your public schools get better. Well, okay. You know, we see that the money is headed
away from public schools. We do have the research that a lot of times that money's not really going
to a better place. But boy, what you guys are doing, I mean, I got to think that at some point,
open enrollment in Wisconsin, people were like, oh, and how do I get to see so far?
Yeah, I mean, I talk about that with my kids school, too. I'm like, man, my kids don't even go to
a school that's a lift off the district. So, I mean, so officially, I'm like, how can they, right?
So just good conversations. And I think you know, you're right. And that's been some of the best
data that we have collected is just those teacher testimonials. You know, to hear teachers that
have been in the fields. And they're like, hey, yeah, I don't see me retiring. And I was going to
retire. And I'm, I think I'm in it for at least two more, two more, three more years, right? You
have Mike Bigley, who could, you know, as a superintendent could be the same way. And he's like,
I'm just getting started and having fun. So I think those stories keep us going. And the reason
why we do what we do. Well, we're not just getting started. We're going to make sure we keep it going
our guest, Brittany Wall, Cease4, more importantly, liftoffs will have all of this contact info
in the show description for everybody to make sure that, you know, you can also get,
get moving in that direction. Man, teachers saying I want to keep teaching. Love it. Brittany
Walls, thanks for busting pencils. Yeah, thanks guys. It was great to see you guys.
And now it's time for your moment of zin.
Voting is easy and marginally useful. But it is a poor substitute for democracy,
which requires direct action by concerned citizens.
With home rooms, class and sessions and always loads of fun with Jacobs producers choice and
listen up pencil busters. You know, you can always catch the busting pencils broadcast at 3 p.m.
central time across all the civic media network stations for one hour of your favorite blue collar
scholars, Tim and Johnny, and keep busting pencils.