Oh, feels like, no, I don't want to say what it feels like.
It feels like busted pencils, fully let it education talk, educated educators talking
education, Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, you know, on location, you've probably heard that
noise as we were coming in.
Don't worry, he's going to take care of that when we can.
Jacob chairman of the boards and me, Dr. Tim Slecker, it is class is in session.
You know, what that means time to get your learning on or do some, some, some learning
or how did George Bush freight phrase that Jacob?
Is our children learning?
Is that what we're looking for?
That's it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is our children learning?
Well, now it is.
There it is.
That's the word.
Is is the time to get your learning on because that's what we do is in classes in session
and, you know, kind of stay in with the theme this week of Jacob and Johnny not knowing.
That's about to happen.
I got another one because, you know, I came across something that is, it was tried to
explain it is perplexed me for a long time and I've seen different people try to, try
to answer it.
And in fact, I've often wondered a lot about this being a Star Trek guy, you know, myself
believing in one day cruising the universe on a starship with warp drive.
I understand space as going, quote, everywhere, but then wondering when I get in my starship,
how do I know where I'm going?
Is, you know, do you, if you go forward, won't you just stay on a plane?
And if I stay on that plane, aren't there planets beneath beneath me that I would miss
and aren't there planets above me that I would miss?
In other words, how do you know if you go up, down east, west, left or right, how do you
know about that in space?
Because I'm worried that if we go traveling the universe, we're going to miss a whole
bunch of universes that are up above us and below us.
And I'm wondering if Johnny and Jacob could help teach me how to make sense of my conundrum.
We really think the biggest problem with space travel is that we can't create a GPS.
No, we've got lightspeed.
We've got all that on lock, but darn it, we can just find out how to navigate up here.
Well, I mean, I've heard, you know, in all these things, well, the star charts, you know,
star, okay, star charts, like what does that look like in real time?
And as you said, Jacob, GPS and Johnny, you're the math science guy, I mean, how am I going
to get around when I, when I start breaking through the galaxy for man?
I'm don't found it because I have, I mean, I think we should have on our resident astrophysicist
to follow up on this, Ethan Seagull, Dr. Ethan Seagull, because I mean, this is his jam.
I mean, so I'm going to, I'm going to butcher this time.
I don't know where this is coming from or how this is related to topics, but it certainly
is educational.
But on a very ground level, I'm curious why, but we'll get there.
If my students were just to ask me this in class to distract from whatever the lesson
is that I plan for the day, that's typical, that's a common thing, but, but from what
I understand, Tim, from just a math physics position and like, I would love Dr. Ethan Seagull
to come on and like really, like really nail this down because he would explain it so much
better and, and probably know, I'm not probably, he will know way more than me about this.
But Tim, if you think about space and what we know about space, they're mathematically
we understand it as fields, and there are magnetic and gravitational fields, okay?
And based on how near or far you are to different planets and like you are right, star charts
and planetary charts, we understand like gravitational pull and fields through how light travels,
you know, through those different fields and how it bends and what not.
And we can have sort of mathematical representations of the different terrains.
So it's not quite the same as like north, south, east, west or like follow in a GPS map,
but if you can imagine, you know, multi-dimensional fields, like fields like different layers that
you're passing through, that we've experimented with with either satellites, with either,
you know, rockets or with, you know, sounded light traveling across those to get mathematical
representations, which makes things like space travel kind of interesting because we have
a lot of theoretical, you know, information about what it could be like or what it is like.
But other than that, Tim, I will be asking my students as I'm asking you now, an uptime
on this, why, and let's figure out where we're going with this, because I mean, I'm not going
anywhere other than thinking as a classes in session, you know, and, you know, in fact,
a home room, you know, last week that Jacob and I did, it was just purely educational, you
know, we talked about Greenland, the history of Greenland, it was, you know, I know Greenland's
related to the things that are happening today, but, you know, this morning, I just, I was
reading something and it just touched the thing that I had always worried about. And, John,
you hit on part of the answer. Gravity is definitely part of the answer. I guess the other
part of this, too, is that on Netflix, I ended up getting sucked into watching a documentary
of the flat earthers, too. And so trying to, how they make sense of, quote, the, the lies
of a, of a round earth, all of this kind of came together. And I was just thinking, you
know what? And in fact, you put it out there that, you know, these are some of those questions
that occasionally a teacher gets stumped where it goes, what do you mean? You know, which
way? So let me, let me frame it to you as a kid would think about this. Okay. To get to space,
which way do you go? Jacob up. Yeah, you up, right? You go up. I would go away from the earth's
core. Is how I will really scientifically make that case. That's what up means in this context.
Ah, you're getting to me. And Tim, I think, I think this is like to over, not oversimplify it,
but not over, let's not overcomplicate it. Think you also use vision. And like you kind of,
like look towards where you want to go. Let's say you're going to go towards like the moon.
Then you kind of optically steer towards the moon. So again, like we were saying,
star charts and planetary charts certainly have some help as well as how we understand light
and sound passing through different fields. Well, okay, you guys are getting on this. So
let me, let me try not to be frustrated as I will. You mean I ran, you mean I ran from my classroom
before I made my other classroom to have this enlightened discussion to get, to get me the
annoying students saying, you know, but, you know, up and down, Jacob, you're right, right? You
know, you think about that. So as a normal person, it's like, you know, to get to the moon,
you got to get in a rocket and that rocket has to go up. And at one point, do you go, okay,
I got to make a turn though. And as Johnny said, I got to start heading towards the moon.
I agree with Johnny's opinion as a math expert that that point would be when you look at it with
your eyeballs, and you see that you're not pointed towards it anymore. And you'll go, it's over
this way. And maybe is that up? Is it down? It doesn't matter. It's this way I can tell. And I'll
go that way. And honestly, you're kind of, from what I understand, you're kind of too late at
that point. So we really have to trust mathematical calculations and what we gather from things moving
through different fields. But again, like this is not my area of expertise. I really wish we had
astrophysicist resident scientist for busting pencils, Dr. Ethan Seagull with this. This is
his major thing is communicating smart stuff to regular old people like us. In fact, Johnny,
this is going to lead into an episode with Dr. Ethan Seagull because we are going to invite him
back to critique this either, you know, awesome attempt at doing this or for him to say holy crap,
you guys butchered the crap out of this. I will, I'm going to put in the chat of which listeners can't
see a fact. And I want you and Johnny to look at that. Should we read it or because this is a,
I don't want to be jerked him, but this is an audio medium. Yeah, Jacob, I would, in fact,
you read Jacob and now for your moment.
There is no up or down in outer space. There is only toward something and away from something.
Okay, so that's one of those weird things where you're like, go and wait a minute. What do you
mean? There's no up or down and stuff like that. There's only toward or moving something. But I'm
just thinking about this on a plane and trying to explain this to kids as to going like,
ah, they don't understand no up or down. I think the kids are understanding it. Tim, it's
you're not understanding it is the problem. All right, Jacob. All right. I'm going to bring
him back to what you actually hit really, really pointed at the reality of going, okay,
the reason why we don't have a flat earth is what you just pointed out, Jacob, is that the
only actual reason we do have up and down is this because it's actually moving away from the
core of the earth or moving toward the core of the earth, which our perception on earth is
up or down. But if you have, quote, the round earth, right, it's always the Australia where God
forbid the bad joke that as I was growing up, we dig into China. Well, there's kind of a part
to that that imagines that you go through. So up and down is really only possible because we have
gravity. That, I mean, that's the simplicity of it. Once you get out of gravity, there is no
up or down. There's gravity in other spots in the universe, but for us up and down,
it's gravity on earth creates our relative sense of through our perspective up and down here.
Right. Once you get out of gravity, so the idea and illustration, you could never get out of gravity.
There's just different change. There's just different amounts of it. Well, it's some point,
so gravitational force exists in space. It's different than it is on earth.
Okay, but this helps explain though that in, you know, when you see the outer space video of astronauts
in the space station or something like that, and they're pushing pens and they, right, why don't
they drop because there is no up and down in that sense. It just stays in place.
And so, you know, thinking about that, I was just, you know, imagine I'm going, oh, okay.
I think I get it. But how do you then process that, that from, I, that makes total sense to me,
that, so no matter what side of this sphere I'm standing on, this is why I don't feel upside
down when I go to Australia, because the reality is, is that gravity is pushing, pulling me towards
the core and away from the core is up. And so everything then becomes relative to where I'm at on
that sphere. So, you know, like as little kids growing up, you're like, so people in Australia,
like they're upside down and they don't know it. No, they're not. That's why kangaroos have
those long, opposable tails that they can hang on to the trees. Okay. Now, with that and understanding
that, then now you can get that, okay, once there's no up and down, so Johnny, actually, you're kind
of sense of this of, okay, once you get into space and, oh, call away from gravity, the direction
towards things is essentially where they are, when you get closer to those things, then gravity
comes back into play and starts to, to really, you know, kind of mess with this. Now, here's the hard
question though. Okay, that was easy. Up and down might feel natural because we're taught their
natural, but they're not. How about this statement? The same is true with power and authority.
If you remove the force that holds things in place, suddenly the rules disappear.
Physics as a civic metaphor. Johnny, just too much, not drinking the cool ADF 10 on that one.
I mean, I like the, the comparison. I think you got to explain it more because I would argue
that even if you remove those in power, that cultural patterns that we've experienced tend to
reproduce themselves. And so you have like new people who tend to produce those similar rules.
Not saying it's fixed into that or any way natural, those are socially constructive.
Like authoritarianism, as I think you're getting out, like power and authority in the way that it's
often like they're politically organized into authoritarianism is socially constructed.
It's like it's a cultural habit. It's one way of doing things that tends to be a dominant way,
but not, you know, the only way. But as history has taught us, even if we say we're removing the
people in power, we tend towards reproducing the behaviors and patterns of those systems that
were in power. So not quite sure it's the same as going into space and saying we removed gravity,
some not directional pull changes. But I'm interested in hearing you out.
It was, it was just I'll admit to this is where my friend, Chad GPT chimed in, as I was kind of
putting this together, was like, Hey, Tim, here's a great tie to busted pencils in democracy.
And kind of put that out there. But so you're telling me the AI just isn't quite there yet.
Not there yet. But I, well, AI is making a common assumption that like
there's no human condition involved in how systems work. And it's as simple as saying like,
this is a off. This is great connection to learning, Tim, because we often think if I have new
information, and I just tell people about my new information, they're just going to not only
change how they think but change what they do. And that simply is not true because our socialization,
our primary socialization, in fact, creates these mental maps, these cultural understandings of
what we do and when we do them and how we do them. And they start even before we're born,
but especially once we're born and like we're learning from the people and the things around us,
they really set us into those patterns, that socialization of our human existence. So then,
so it's never quite as easy, just like I'm saying, it's not the same. Like you go into space,
you're subject to the gravitational field you're in. And for all purposes, like you go to zero
gravity and now up is not up and down is not down and like you're, but if you change something
in our human world and on earth as we know it and in culture, you have to deal with all the
socialized patterns that still exist. There's no like memory white. So it's never as clean as saying,
okay, well, we have the information now, everybody change. That's why it's very difficult
to get people to do new things, not try new things, but like, you know, run a business differently
or play a game with different rules. It's easier to talk the talk than it is to walk the walk.
Like that takes time and learning and changing, you know, neurosuperhighway patterns in our brain,
that we get to be sometimes we call them habits of mine. So it is interesting to me. I see the
connection, but AI is kind of simplifying to say like, well, new information is like going into
a different universe. And in some ways, I mean, it's it's as hard as going into a different universe
because you have to override those cultural assumptions or those neurosuperhighways
that are how we make sense of the world. Like, I'm for people, this is audio, but if you have videos,
I'm holding a cup of coffee. I know it's called a cup of coffee because language and culture and
habits and and, you know, even little kids that might not call it coffee have some kind of
building pattern around. It's something that people that are of my same species kind of old and
take sips of a part towards their mouth. They start to build these associations. And then over
years and years, right, we have shared associations where even if you don't share the same language,
as me and call what I'm holding coffee, right, you call it something different in your language,
you know, that it's like human behavior is that it's in a cup and we drink from it or might be a
bull. And so there's all these associations that create these familiarities.
You're bringing you're bringing up and reminding me of one of the best movies from the 80s.
I know what you're going to say, Tom. I mean, revenge of the nerds.
What if C-A-T really spelled D-O-G?
Well, that's huge. That was the musclehead who became a nerd talking to booger after they were
smoking cannabis. You know, but no, actually an illustration, but not Johnny's, right? You know,
you're talking about this. It's just interesting. So, you know, so justice, authority and stuff.
Hey, you want to fix an imbalanced system? Take away gravity. And, you know,
no, no, it's not that it's not that simple. Yeah, there's that connection there. And then also just
this idea, Johnny, though, I mean, here, you know, all the fun or non-fun depending on after we
get off the air and you guys blast the crap out of me for bringing this up. Is this though? I mean,
I think this is the other thing teachers are faced with a lot of times is, you know, how do we
explain things? And you're right. I definitely, you know, we got to get this episode and we will get
this episode to Ethan because, you know, part of being a great educator is that ability to take,
you know, a really abstract concept and create connections for kids in how they can try to make
sense of this because the idea of actually dismissing up and down, I'm going to say that that has
serious PSJ developmental issues and attachments to the, and even, you know, at what point can you
even think about that? You know, remember the concrete learning, Johnny, all the way through.
Can you imagine telling a young kid, well, there is no up and down for real. It's just something
we're stuck with here on earth and trying to explain that to them. And so, you know, how do you deal
with those issues? I think a lot of times we quickly, and I would say that this is great advice for
a teacher when you don't know, you don't make it up, you admit that you don't know, but there's
an opportunity to learn and try to bring it back. And so here's the kind of plug for AI that I
would think a teacher now has an opportunity to do because I was talking to some college of
education people today, is that break this down for me so that I can explain it, first of all,
to myself, and then help me figure this out for, you know, an eighth grader, a fifth grader.
And this is a really abstract concept because I'm still, as we're kind of coming up here to the
end, I'm still perplexed of saying that there, once I get into space, there are no planets
above where earth sits in the cosmos and no planets below where earth sits in the cosmos.
I'm having a tough time with that one. And, you know, but at the same time, though, making the
difference of understanding that up and down is only relative to gravity and being on a planet
and down being the core pulling and up being pushing away from the core. I think that's a pretty
cool concept that kids can start to grasp and hold on to Johnny. Yeah, I take Tim, you're right.
And I love this, this sort of openness of these topics and bringing them together that you're sharing
because the exact reason that you're struggling with up and down in space, they're like,
mind blown, right? Because your neurological superhighways and your brain, all your socialization
and learning has produced these patterns of like, well, up and down is down. And I like the
connection that you and I are making here too, because to think about what it would be like
without power and authority and the way that we've always experienced it in terms of authoritarian
habits of mind, right? Like, there's a leader and he tells us what to do. And if we don't,
he hits us pretty hard with a big stick or like his military does or like we go to, like,
there are strong punishment models, like we have habits of mind, right? That to change are as
difficult as conceptualizing what would it be like to understand navigation without up and down,
right? You're like, this is what we're asking. If you were to think about what would life be like,
and like, and truly a more true democracy, right? A non-authoritarian democracy, right? Or
in consensus, right? Or in like, you know, horizontally organized, you know, communities,
whether it's clubs or organizations that organize truly democratically, where decisions are made
together by those impacted by the decision being made. That's sometimes as difficult, right?
As Tim is saying, like, conceptually grasping the fact like, if I go in this space, there's no up
and there's no down. So that's a good reminder, Tim, for like how important learning in schools,
it is to organize democratic classrooms, to make decisions in other ways that are non-authoritarian
or not just based on majority rules that are based on consensus, that are based on the process
of democracy, because it can be culturally a habit where we're like, well, of course,
it's just how we make decisions. It hasn't always been, and it's a difficult one, like it would be
to understand now the getting in space, but we can learn too. So I like this comparison you're
making Tim, because just as hard as like, you're saying it is to think about no up and down in space,
is how hard it is to really change from authoritarianism to egalitarianism. And maybe it's
somewhere in between that, right? Yeah, it's perfect. I mean, that's the connection.
You imagining something different is almost impossible, because, you know,
customs, and there's a line I put in the chat, up and down aren't universal truths,
their local customs. And Johnny, as you're pointing that out, you know, here it is, our system
of arranging the way we interact as a society, you know, the rules that we've applied,
they're not universal truths of the universe, they're a custom and an arrangement, and our ability
to imagine something different is really constrained by, you know, in this sense, customs
and or gravity. And so with that, class is out of session, and now it's time for your moment of zin.
War itself is the enemy of the human race.
I'm a busted pencils class in session, and you can always grab great podcasts like this one,
just search busted pencils on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and of course, you can always find us on
the civic media website or at busted pencils dot com. Hey, and don't forget to find us throughout
the week every Monday, Wednesday, Friday with home rooms, class in sessions, and always loads of fun
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hour of your favorite. Who callers scholars? Tim and Johnny and keep Bustin pencils.