Welcome to Busted Pancels, fully-ledged education talk, educated educators, talking education.
It's Friday folks.
You might be listening to this on a day other than Friday, but we record and drop our favorite show of the week.
We actually love all of our shows, but we have a special place in our heart for our Fridays because those days are producer Jacob's choice shows.
We love it.
So without any further ado, Jacob, I'm here with you today.
Dr. Tim Slecker is MIA.
No, we know where he's on PTO, but nonetheless, we still do what we do here at Busted Pancels, and so he'll fold back in on our next recording.
But Jacob, I'm stoked, man, producer's choice. It's Friday. How was your week?
I had a pretty good week, Johnny. I mean, it started out pretty bad last weekend, where my Chicago Bears lost to the Rams and tore my heart right out of my chest, like Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom, and you know, you took a bite out and put it back in.
It was horrific, Johnny, real bad moment for me, but so far, the actual week has been pretty good, and I know we like to have a lot of further ado in these intros,
but without Tim, he's kind of our do-guy, so let's just get right into the intro for two, two, producer, and Jacob's choice, chairman of the board.
Oh, you and I will have two choice, chairman of the board, Jacob.
Oh, Jacob, chairman of the board.
I bet the board is spelled B-O-R-E-D.
We choose to go to the moon, life's full of tough choices in here.
We chose one.
All right, everybody. Welcome to the producer's choice show. I am the eponymous producer, the chairman of the board, your host, Jacob.
Woo, thank you all for being here. This week, we celebrated Martin Luther King, junior day in the United States of America.
Dr. King was a passionate advocate for civil rights, opponent of segregation, and a deeply consequential figure in American history.
Both in his time and today, Martin Luther King, junior is considered by many to be their hero.
That's why today we're going to be talking about our heroes, the people who inspired us to become the people that we are,
or challenge us to try to become the better people that we wish that we were.
My guest today is an expert in hero worship, Dr. Johnny Lupinagy.
Thanks for being here, Johnny.
Hey, man, I wouldn't miss it for the world, and then I do love heroes, Jacob, and heroins.
I think that's another term there, but I'm big fan of them.
And I know we threw caution towards in the show this week, some research, that's some nerds out there,
do some educated educators who sometimes come on the show, talked about regarding the dangers of heroes.
I love me some heroes, super heroes, everyday heroes, heroes for democracy, champions of civil rights,
human rights, all of the above.
So I'm excited about today, Jacob.
So let's talk some heroes.
Absolutely excellent.
I'm glad to hear that you're as pumped for this as I am, Johnny.
I want to start us off at the very basic level with a bit of a Webster's definition dictionary moment.
I'm going to ask you the question, Johnny, simply put, what is a hero?
I mean, but no, I mean, it's a sandwich that I love to eat.
Hero, I guess if I had to put a definition to it, it is some body person,
you know, man, woman, anything, I know we have genders to the actual noun hero.
But I think it's any one or anything because it doesn't even have to necessarily always be
a non, it can be a fictional character.
Yeah, like super heroes and things.
But I like to think of it as someone who sets an exemplary model for what it is we aspire to.
So like there can be heroes in sports, there can be heroes in everyday life, there can be
you know, maybe I would like to become a doctor when I grew up and my hero is, you know,
a brain surgeon that I learn about. I just like to, I would simplify it as a definition as,
you know, any person or thing that sets an example, right, for greatness or for, you know,
achievement in whatever area it is that we are interested in.
I think you're right, Johnny, and thinking about heroes, I think the big
key thing to keep in mind with heroes is that they set an example in a way that represents
the values of the person observing them. So, you know, a hero to me might be different to a hero
for somebody else because it's somebody who embodies the virtues that we perceive in the world.
I agree. And there's probably like, we can get really into this too and create a whole subgenre
topic here of levels of hero because I think, you know, we have like heroes like we sometimes
think about like gods or goddesses at an extremely high level. And then we have like every day
kind of heroes like like tears towards that where you might stay like, you know, like a champion
of civil rights. As you said, we celebrated this week Martin Luther King is like a big capital
H hero. But all of the people in our lives that espouse those similar views and actions can serve
as like an everyday condo hero. Maybe it was like my fifth grade teacher who taught me about those
things, right? So, there's like heroes and levels of heroes. And I think, well, Tim's not here. He
would say, Johnny, that's what I was talking about with my like being cautious of heroes because
it's sometimes maybe is it feels too distant or too unachievable. But I think just as important
as those capital H heroes are all of the lowercase heroes who make it so we can take steps towards
that greatness. So, you know, there's subgenres. There's tears of the heroes we have in our lives.
I think that's where the aspirational aspect to the hero has to come into it as well because it's
not just, you know, there can be people who I feel embody my values in the same way that I do.
But that's not really someone I think of as my hero. It's when somebody embodies those virtues in
a way that I aspire to be more like that, you know, the creation of that path that you can see or
that guidance towards something, you know, when somebody is the same as you, they're not really your
hero. Right. Even if you really admire them and you, you know, you think they're a great person,
you wouldn't necessarily say, that's my hero. I want to ask you about this, Johnny, because you
kind of touched on it there that Tim. Egghead Tim brought up on the last show that there are
some people who would disagree with having heroes and the elevation of normal human beings with
flaws and problems into the status of being a hero is not an uncontroversial thing. These days
statues are flashpoints for political conflicts, books by controversial figures are being pulled off
the shelves. And as the green goblin once said, the only thing people love more than a hero is to see
them fail, fall and die trying. So I want to ask you, Johnny, what do you think about this debate about
the value of having heroes? I know you like them. Can you tell us why you like them and can you see
some of the sides of a point that the other side might have? Yeah, absolutely, Jacob. I think
perspective is always important, right? And I think, you know, if we have the perspective that our
heroes need to be perfect, yeah, that's a dangerous place to be because like even the most amazing
heroes, probably have some aspects to their lives or to something that might not fully embody
that image of perfection that we hold, you know, or put these amazing people or amazing characters
upon a pedestal for. So I'm always like like everything, like only sits, speak in absolutes,
you know, I sort of live and die by that. And I try and hold myself to sort of the idea that let's
let's focus on the good of what somebody brings or why they might be a hero. That said certainly
sometimes the thing we find out about our heroes, change that for us. And I think there's
importance to holding space for that too. You know, that kind of seeps into a little bit of,
I think we're on the men, maybe still in it, you know, the dangers and pitfalls of a cancel culture.
You know, I think there's some merit though that like just because somebody did something really
great doesn't necessarily negate that they did a bunch of bad things too. And I think we're learning
that as we better untangle history from some of the, you know, hyperbole of the greatness that gets
shared. I think there's a balance in between. Let's not make it perfection the standard for people
who said a great example for us. But that said, I think we can hold space for great things people do
and then I recognize that maybe there weren't so many great things about them. And so how do we in
the moment, you know, make choices, say what I really want to do is learn from this amazing,
you know, person who set this example in these ways, but maybe not reproduce the other things
that they that they had as part of their lives. And I think it's important to navigate and hold
space for those. And that said too, I think one of the things, well, I'm critical of cancel culture.
I'm also celebrating a part of it because it's made it possible for us to discuss
things that maybe a so-called hero might have had as part of their lives or actions.
That isn't so great. So I think we're maybe heading into a moment where we can acknowledge
both of those things and kind of move forward. Take the good, you know, I think it was my great
grandmother who would always say, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yeah, I was like,
okay, so in most of these contexts, there's there's almost always some bath water that we might say,
hey, I'd like to not reproduce these things, but I'd really like to strive towards these other
aspects of what this amazing person has put forward or what this maybe we find out not so amazing
person produced that was great. I'll use a really amazing example that's on the front of my mind
because I'm teaching teachers all day, most of the weekend. And we were talking today about
Dr. Seuss and most of us learned to read with Dr. Seuss and there's some really amazing work
pieces of children's literature out there that in pretty amazing ways utilize sight words and
early reading words in a rhyming way that help us to become stronger readers. But we also know
Dr. Seuss did some pretty racist cartooning and had some beliefs and, you know, some problematic
points of view to say lightly about the world. And so there's good merits to discussing both
of these things and sitting at the tension of, so what do we do? Do we pull all of these books?
Do we maybe, you know, get someone to utilize what he introduced as a great way of helping young
readers learn to read, but to maybe redoing those. And so there we had a really great discussion
of how do we not throw the baby out with the bath water and sort of be a racist apologist,
right? You know, kind of saying, hey, we'd like to not reproduce racism. And as part of that,
we'd like to really think about this also pretty great thing that this person contributed
to all of our literacy. And let's move forward and figure out how to do those kinds of things,
just a kind of everyday example that I thought might might have been a little bit related to what
you were, you were asking here. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm thinking about it, Johnny. And I've heard
an expression before or a lesson or parable or somebody said that, you know, happiness is not a
place that you arrive at. It is learning to enjoy the journey from where you are to the end of your
life. And that really conflicts, I think, with the inherent or, or maybe it's a cultural assumption,
but a way that a lot of people feel that they aspire to go from where they are to someday being
done, you know, not being dead, but being a complete finished product at some point in their
life. They think, you know, I'm 29 right now, but when I'm 50, I'm going to be pretty much settled.
I'll have everything ready. I'll have the life that I want. And I wonder if that sense of the
aspirational that we bring to our heroes is part of the conflict that makes it makes it so hard
to accept that they never became finished products. Yeah, or that, or that they needed to be perfect
for us to learn from them or aspire to the greatness they did. Yeah, you know, I'll never forget.
I was as a graduate student. I know earlier this week, we talked about, you know,
lies our teachers tell us and, you know, how we learned about history. But I was a graduate
student when I thought, you know, I had written a paper and we were talking in class and
similar to this, sharing about some some heroes we had. And I remember, you know, saying, I think
one of my heroes may be Gandhi. And I thought, you know, like, this is pretty amazing stuff I had,
you know, seen the movie, read about him. And, and, and a classmate of mine, she says, well, you know,
it's actually quite prejudiced and very sexist. And I remember thinking, what are you kidding me?
He's this amazing person, right? Who, you know, helped, uh, uh, uh, who helped in the
a break from colonialism, right? Who, you know, fast and then protested and is a symbol of peace
and peace not being passivity, but peace being active. And all these things, she said, yeah, all
of those, but also, you know, and we had a conversation about how could we carry the
sentiment of what, like, I was attuned to, but also with an awareness to these other things that,
like, you know, she was kind of nudging. Well, I hope you're not at all, like,
fully wanting to be like, like, uh, Gandhi in these ways. And, and, and that's another, you know,
example of that experience that I've had. And I think, like, if I was to have thrown that out
and said, well, you know what? Not such a great guy. Yeah. Um, and in a lot of ways and some pretty
strong ways, uh, but also an amazing guy or a great guy in some different area. So I think that's
the lesson that, you know, as I grew, have grown and gained sort of that, like, uh, that thing they
call maturity took me a longer time to get to it. And I might not be there in all areas.
But most certainly, I think, as I gained, uh, uh, uh, a broader world of you.
One of the things that I've learned in life is to embrace both the ugly and the beautiful.
And sometimes that gets blurred and, and no one hero can embody perfection, right? At least
no living being. I think that's reserved for maybe, you know, ideals that we have. And that
we're all, like you said, works in progress towards that. Uh, so we can learn from even the mistakes
or character flaws that our heroes carried. I think that's a good point. That's a good point
to try to look at these figures in history or in our world or in mythology or in fiction.
And perceive them more as lessons that can be positive or negative. They can show us both
the right way to do things by their successes and through their failures, they can, you know,
exemplify the wrong way to do things and teach us in that way. I think the big thing about heroes
is that people become very emotionally invested in their heroes. It means a lot to them
who these people are. And oftentimes you develop this feeling of, uh, hero worship towards
these figures as a kid. You know, you're a young person and you spend, you know, whether you,
you know, this is by the point you're in high school or college or you become an adult. By the point
you find out some negative thing about that person, you've been invested in this, this person for
a decade or more, uh, and trying to pattern your life after them. It's hard to hear some negative
thing. I think people feel like they're betrayed when they find out that this person that they
really liked and cared about did something they really disagree with. I think that's part of it.
How do you think people can try to decouple themselves from that instinctive, uh,
sense of betrayal about these people and get to that healthier spot that we talked about in your
last answer? Yeah. Jacob, great question, man. And I think that disappointment is important
to feel it deeply and that emotional investment shouldn't because there's that level of emotional
investment in our heroes, um, we shouldn't shy away from it. I wouldn't say being emotionally
invested in your heroes dangerous because you never know what you might, I'm not ready to keep
kind of distant. I think that discomfort or the disappointment, the letdown, um, when we may
learn about our heroes imperfections or, you know, sometimes outright awful character or, you know,
human flaws, um, that, that pain, that sort of disappointment that even might be discussed
of it is important because it helps us identify that's something we don't want to be.
So my encouragement is like sit with that and also don't throw out the good,
but then be that difference. It's a sign of growth. I mean, I think it's a sign of wisdom and
maturity for somebody to say, that's awful. Well, I still want, there was still a reason that
there was a lot of good contributing to who I was aspiring to become. I'm going to hold space
for that good. And I'm going to remember that, that discussed that pain and what it either caused
me or another person and I don't want to reproduce that. So I think it's an important part of the,
when you have heroes, there will also be, you know, some emotional investment that will lead to
potentially some letdowns and that that's part of the human condition and experiencing those
is important to sorting out, you know, the, the things that you want to carry forward versus the
things you would like to see not carried forward. And I would, I strongly urge that pretty much
every hero or heroine is going to have these, right? And in literature, that's an important piece
like when we read great novels or stories like good, really amazing authors always work in
character flaws or downfalls or struggles. So that as we identify with hero characters,
we also experience that emotional investment in the character and then that letdown and maybe
then a build up, right? So that we're kind of experiencing that whole process.
I think people need to, or should I would advise people to embrace what we subconsciously know
in the reason that authors say, oh, you got to give them some flaws because otherwise he won't
be relatable to people. And when you're reading, you're not thinking, oh, I wish this guy had more
problems, but on a subconscious level, I'm not perfect and I can't relate to a guy who's perfect,
you know, we know it somewhere inside of us. And I think what you said is absolutely right,
Johnny. And maybe this is the big lesson. Don't ignore that feeling of disappointment or
disgust when you learn a bad thing about a hero, but also don't ignore in paper over the feeling of
triumph or, you know, goodness, moral goodness that you get from a character who you might think
is flawed. These are both things that contribute to the story of these characters. Johnny, I want to
ask you a pretty big question. And I think we've got about 15 minutes to answer it. So it should
work out pretty well. Let's forget about that disgust factor. Let's think about those great
characters that we love. Johnny, I want to ask you about your hero mount Rushmore. Can you think
of four heroes that you would put up and chisel their head into a mountain somewhere in South Dakota?
That's a tough one, man. That's a tough one. It's a big question. Yeah.
That's a really tough one. A lot of very amazing people. It doesn't have to be definitive.
We can workshop this a bit here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're catching me. This is great because
a really good producer's choice is always about kind of catching somebody out there at that moment
where you're going to get a very raw reflective in that moment answer. I think
one, I'll start with one of folks who listen, our pencil busters out there,
no hockey coach and a hockey player. And I love the game of hockey.
One of my heroes, and it's a good example because I have a few in hockey, but one of my heroes
in hockey is a good example of these tensions. I absolutely grew up looking up to Wynne Gretzky.
Okay. Great one. Yeah. And I still absolutely love watching old clips of him. Love
what he has to say, but hockey, love what he's done for the sport and the game.
Have quotes of his written in my journals and my notes of how to coach and things like that.
And he's probably hard to leave out of my rush more. And yet then I have moments where we have
very different politics. Sure. Sure. All right. And that's come up for a lot of my Canadian friends
especially like, you know, how could they look up to? How can we hold space for this hero
in our hockey community who also avidly supports Donald Trump, right? And this is one of those
moments where it's like, wow, I have to separate out these things for myself. And I feel okay about
it because how he played the game and how he builds a community and the ways in which, you know,
he gives to a sport and to young players and to in all examples that I have of him. Don't
despise those political views. And so, you know, for me, that's one of those heroes that I would
share. I think I already shared another one earlier in the show. I think Gandhi, for me,
especially as a kid, I know like reading about Gandhi, learning about Gandhi as a kid,
and about the work he did for human rights around the world and to, you know, break from colonialism
in India and to show that peace is not passivity. And the movie Gandhi, right? I'm aging myself,
but that was like an amazing film. Sir Ben Kingsley. Yeah, that came out and it was like,
I was right at the age where it was like, it was a grown-up film and I was a kid. But we watched it
because it was, you know, in my family, important to learn about, you know, civil rights and human
rights and movements. And I remember my parents saying, we need to watch this movie because this
is a really important person. And so the moment and the experience of that and what it sort of
instilled in me, right, to always be on the side of the oppressed and to ask really hard questions
about oppression and about human suffering and how you respond to human suffering. So I would
put Gandhi there for me. I also really hold space in my Mount Rushmore. Again,
recency bias for celebrating the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King. But for me, absolute hero.
Maybe if there was different sizes on the Mount Rushmore, Martin Luther King, especially as a
young man, like learning from his talks, his speeches and being, you know, a child in Detroit,
where, you know, civil rights were common to talk about. They were in our curriculum.
They were in our community. We would take trips down to Atlanta and visit, you know,
the Martin Luther King Center and learn from his teachings and from the move civil rights movement.
And different speeches that he gave different talks for different lessons and different moments in
my life. And even then as an adult, you know, the imperfections of Dr. King, learning from those
pieces as well as I was reading more deeply about him and what people had to say about his work.
But again, just a huge influence and like as a teacher, as an educator, as a human rights
advocate, you know, I think that's one of my heroes time and time again, time tested one of my
true teachers. And then I would include in that and we could create different categories that
are certainly a lot of people who are in there. But I will also add to that my mom.
Probably my biggest hero, and I'm going to try and share this with our crime because I miss her
every day. But I think moms everywhere do so much for us. I think probably listeners can relate
that I would be remiss. I would be negligent to not acknowledge that,
them from before I was even born. This was my hero. And even in her not being with us anymore,
still the lessons she taught me about doing what's right, about taking for responsibility when
you make mistakes, holding me accountable at every stage of my life, you know, to a level or a
standard of humility, to being humble, to being kind, to leading. She was a school principal,
right? We went to school together. We went to college at the same time. And she would say,
get your things. We're going to school. Like this is something we're going to do because it's
important because I would like to become a counselor and you're going to become something. I didn't
know yet. It was to be a teacher, you know. And then she became a school principal and led
schools. And we had lots of conversations about school change, about supporting teachers, about,
you know, applying children's rights to our schools and classrooms. And how do we create spaces
for children to be who they are, to recognize different needs that children have and the right they
have to having those needs met in our school communities and how she handled, you know,
difficult students always sort of set compass for me and who I wanted to be in life as a man who
I wanted to be in life as a parent who I wanted to be in life, you know, as a teacher. And so my
biggest hero, you know, is my mom. So that's four of my mom rush marks. And I could go into
categories because certainly we can go into familial family heroes, you know, sports heroes
or genres. We could pick your favorite superhero. There are a lot of those, but my above all of those
for me, you know, is my mom. Well, that's a very good answer, Johnny. I'm glad that I didn't have
to give mine because then I would have felt bad if my if my mom and dad didn't crack the list.
Look, I love, I love you mom, but Cyclops from X-Men, pretty darn cool too. So I don't know,
it's kind of a, that's a tough one. I'm going to ask you one more philosophical question because
you made me think about it here, Johnny. Do you think maybe there's an aspect through which we can
have a better appreciation and healthier understanding of our heroes or those figures that
we view as flawed. If we think about the relationships that we have with our own parents, because I think
as really small kids, your mom and dad are your hero, you know, they're perfect people. They take
good care of you. You love them. Mom and dad are awesome. And then somewhere around, you know,
your teen years, you start to realize mom and dad are awesome and they do love me, but they're also
human beings. And you start to pick up on well, the, you know, dad drives too fast down that way.
That's starting to, whoa, I'm a little worried about that or whatever it is. And I think by the time
you become an adult, hopefully you settle on a pretty healthy thing where you both love and
understand the flaws and your family members. And I think that starts with your parents. Do you
think there's a way into into having that healthier appreciation of our fellow human beings by
looking first internally at the people we know best? Yeah, Jacob, I think so. I think that's a
really good lesson to take out of this. And for everybody, it's not your parents. Maybe it's,
you know, a coach you've had over the years or it's one of your teachers or, you know, the people
we know, I would say our heroes closest to us are the most visible for good and for bad. And so
that's an inroad into that larger philosophical worldview of, you know, some really great folks in
our lives or not even in our lives, but we're learning from they aren't perfect. Yeah, right? And
that they, they themselves struggle with things. And so I think, I think, I think you're dead on.
That's one of the lessons that our heroes provide us is that the humanness of them,
the flaws also become ways we learn and to accept and hold space for those flaws, I think,
starts locally, right? With the people we absolutely know. It's also Jacob, why I love
fiction so much as well. Like you referenced, you know, comic book heroes or superheroes,
but I think they're really important, even though they're fictional because it's also through that
character development and our interests or our affinity towards them that we learn and when
they're really well developed, right? We see those sides of them that help us also to, you know,
build that skill of navigating the good and the bad to sort of ask, wow, what is it about this
person that's so inspiring or that's teaching me something so valuable to who I am? And so like
our fiction heroes are really important and not contexts too. Part of the most important keys
of building empathy and understanding other people is trying to place yourself into the shoes of
another person. And one of the best ways to do that are the most accessible ways to do that
is by reading fiction from another person's perspective. It lets you, you know, see their thought
process walk through these events through their point of view. And I think that helps build that
empathy. I think that's a big part of heroes and why fictional heroes are so important.
And Johnny now that the show's wrapping up that does bring me to a very important fiction-based
question. Let's go. Yeah. Dr. Johnny Lupinachi 60 seconds or I guess you can have a minute and
20 seconds since Tim is in here. Who's your favorite superhero? My favorite superhero is a sleeper.
Most of my life it was Spider-Man and I still really love Spider-Man. But I would say in my
comic book years, I love graphic novels and comic books. I discovered a superhero I loved and
I actually have every comic and I collect the animal man, superhero series. I love animal man.
I just didn't hurt it. I didn't hurt it. Yeah, animal man. It's so cool man. He's an amazing
superhero and for a number of reasons for me, help me make sense of my interest both in like human
rights and justice, like most good superheroes fighting for justice, but also in an extended way
to the environment in an animal world. So you know, oftentimes I would read that and my other
favorite superhero I'm making it a two for I'm going to because Tim's not here. That's fair.
This isn't a traditional superhero, but I read this character like a superhero because I'm
just amazed by her. Katniss Everdeen. Yeah, man. I am beyond inspired by Katniss Everdeen.
And that I mean the Hunger Games series, the books man. I when those came out and I read them,
I was like, this is my favorite superhero. People be like, she's not a superhero. I'm like,
read the books, man. Read the book. She's amazing. She's a superhero. She doesn't have a super
power per se like the classical genre of, you know, superheroes. But boy, I am just like blown away
by that character. I think she's pretty rad, pretty amazing and pretty timely for all of us
asking questions about, you know, society, about, you know, about struggle, about our mental health,
about our fortitude and our goals. I mean, just all these things like it go on and on.
But Jacob, those are my two big ones, animal man and Katniss Everdeen.
I think Katniss from Hunger Games fits more into like the classic mythological hero like Odysseus,
you know, somebody who who's in the realm of these bigger forces and figures and goes on this
journey and behaves in heroic ways. Like you said, absolutely. I can see that for me. Johnny,
I'm just going to give my answer because I know the folks that I love when I intervene with my
thoughts. My favorite superhero, hard to say because there's so many out there and they're
all so interesting, but mine is Wolverine. Yeah, because I love kind of the opposite of what we've
been talking about all day, but I love the the flawed hero who redeems themselves. I always love
those stories and that's why I think Jesus is so cool because you love, you know, you like,
it believes in giving people that chance to redeem themselves. Wolverine's awesome and I guess,
I guess I'm implying he should start a new religion. It sounds like it would be a pretty
interesting one with the everybody would have their hair up in a Wolverine pattern. But Johnny,
this is a really great conversation with you about heroes. Thank you so much for being a guest
on your own show. And I found it very brave of you to come here without your hero Tim to guide
you through the show. Exactly. Definitely one of my heroes. And now, Johnny, I think we got time
for one last thing. Absolutely. And now it's time for your moment of sin.
To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history
is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness.
Hey there, pencil busters. This is producer Jacob and thank you for listening to the producer's
choice show. If you enjoyed this show, check out all the busted pencils programs starting out
Monday with home room, Wednesday with class and session. And of course, you can always find us
every Saturday across the civic media network for one hour of your favorite blue collar scholars,
Tim Johnny and Jacob, and keep Bustin Pencils.