Oh, man, that her day. One full hour busted pencils fully. Let it education talk, educated
educators talking, education, Dr. Johnny Lupinanshi, Jacob Chairman of the board, me, Dr. Tim
Slecker, man, and you, the listener out there in your car, in your workshop, I'll do
in a jog, listening to us streaming on one of the, you know, the civic media outlets that
are out there, you know, maybe you're in Hayward, maybe, maybe you're in Michigan, maybe
you're in Minnesota right now, but thank you for, you know, jumping on or you're going,
what are you thinking before? I didn't even mean to find this radio station. We'll just
hold tight then because we think you're going to maybe enjoy this, this ride. Yeah, it's
a show about education. And no, it's not a show about making bulletin boards and baking
cookies and leaving an apple for your teacher, although that's always not a bad idea, just,
you know, don't do anything bad to that apple before you leave it. You know, or don't leave
any apple cores because that sends the wrong message. Yeah, but be nice to your teachers.
But, you know, Jacob and Johnny, I do, I love every Saturday because I really get that,
like, no, for sure, somebody is just like, oh, man, I can't change the channel. And I'm
stuck with these yo-yos. Hey, you know, we, we're going to make your time worth it until
you get that radio fix so that you can change the channel. But for now, just chill out,
hang out with us because, you know, education, what's your neighbor thinking? What's going
on? And right now, let's jump right into it, Wisconsin. Who knew? Are you part of the University
of Wisconsin system? Do you have a student in the University of Wisconsin system? Do you
teach in the University of Wisconsin system? Are you yourself currently taking classes
at the University of Wisconsin system? That could be any. That's the Oshkoss campus, Oshkosh
campus. That's the, you know, UW Madison for all of you flagship waivers that are out there.
Make sure that we're talking about you and any of those other institutions. Big headline
though. And this is one of those issues that we've talked, uh, talked a lot about here
is, um, the reduction in programs. And so breaking that down for my, for my neighbor, Johnny,
Johnny, you know, my neighbor was like, what, what do I care if colleges are eliminating
programs? Okay, let's phrase it this way. Colleges, in this case, the University of Wisconsin's
public colleges, universities are eliminating majors. Maybe that's the better way to say
it. In other words, I'm going college to be a psychedelic basket weaver. Well, that is a
program or a major that doesn't exist in any of the University of Wisconsin campuses right now.
But if you were potentially going, that is what is on the chopping block here. In fact, we're
saying, um, from the headline very quickly out of higher education dot, um, higher ed dive,
Wisconsin public universities could start shedding programs more rapidly. So in that title,
in other words, they're already shedding them. Let's speed it up. Um, a committee of administrators
and faculty from the universities of Wisconsin developed a metric, which flags programs within
average of 15 or fewer juniors and seniors enrolled annually in a three-year span.
In other words, Johnny, this is a math problem. I'm going to need you to break down for me.
15 annually in a three-year period. Gotta figure out how to make sense of that.
If you're not meeting that metric, it sounds like we're going to get rid of that program.
And according to this, that could mean 65 programs or 10% of the entire University of Wisconsin
systems majors, undergraduate majors, could be eliminated. There's the stage. It's set.
Producer Jacob, co-host, Johnny. Is this good? Bad? Or is this just news? Johnny.
Well, Tim, it's a, it's a combination of both. It depends on kind of where you're at.
In the just news category, I mean, this is happening in many states, right? I think Oklahoma
recently had a state review similar and, you know, ended up closing, I think 41 programs across
the state system and, you know, are slotted to suspend another 20 some. Um, but, you know,
also in the just news category as well, Tim, you know, we know that all of higher ed is navigating
enrollment and financial pressures. It's like we're going through a massive restructuring
of like how much this costs our students and then also how much it costs to provide quality
education. And as you said this before, I wish it wasn't all by the numbers, right? And so,
you know, this article you shared with me at the end of the week, you know, I was excited.
We were going to talk about it because it emphasizes that the sort of the rubric that's announced
for, you know, evaluating these programs that have on average 15 fewer juniors and seniors
enrolled annually over a three year span are, you know, you said that's some 65 programs,
10% of the system undergraduate programming. You know, they're looking at the rubric seems to be,
although it mentions qualitative, you know, looking at what these programs offer, offer qualitatively,
it's pretty clear. It's the quantitative. It's the numbers, particularly the cost to have
these programs to run these courses with with low enrollment. And I think that's a conversation
happening on nearly every college campus in the country, you know, low enrollment cannot be
justified in cost. And so what that means is that you have to have a certain number of
students that their tuition is covering like the expensive, they're them being in the class
round. I'm having a, you know, a highly qualified instructor assigned to it. So, you know,
that's just the news, you know, my take on it, Tim, is this is, you know, classic starvation
strategy. Okay. You know, Wisconsin, Wisconsin, it's out there familiar with, right? It's, it's,
you know, public four-year institutions are like, you know, they're funded at the state level.
There's state budgets that allocate money per student to call it full-time equivalency. So,
full-time equivalent students are for people in the know that's FTE. That's one of the abbreviations
we use in higher ed. But, you know, just like our K-12 schools, there's a per pupil kind of
allotment we could look at. And Wisconsin ranks around 43rd out of the 50 states in the country
for allocating public funds to people attending public four-year universities. So, that's in a sense,
you know, taxpayer dollars that go to the university to support all programs to support all
undergraduate education. And Wisconsin legislation, you know, has, you know, rolled out like many
other states in this country. What I call the starvation strategy, right? Classic, you know,
the state stars the system and then uses enrollment decline as a justification to cut programs.
Oh, you know, several years into the starvation. Now, we're saying, oh, check it out. We're
going to evaluate these programs to see if they're financially viable. And it's, you know, it's
enrollment has nothing to do with the decade long, you know, starvation strategy rolled out here.
You know, that's my take on it. So, I started with, you know, the facts from the article you shared
and I give it a little bit of my take. Hold on a minute here. You know, like, let's pay attention
one, the qualitative caveat, right? That the rubric announced here says, you know, values of programs
are also taking into consideration the qualitative contributions, right? And should be, you know,
a part of, you know, like evaluating these programs. When you
explain the numbers, yeah, let's explain to the qualitative aspect, because I can hear somebody,
what do you mean? What the heck are you? In other words, does a major
just in and of itself represent a statement about what we value. So, in other words, you know what?
Five students enrolled in understanding some content, some major, some art, okay? Right? We value art.
This is a public university system put together not exclusively to find the highest enrolled
majors and then only fund them. It's a public education institution committed to the democracy,
the civic life, the quality of life, the good of what happens in Wisconsin.
And the last I checked, the arts were considered something that we're supposed to value. And so,
Johnny, to me, this is what we're talking about. So, in other words, is there just a major? You know
what? It didn't meet those enrollment metrics, but darn it, we believe in democracy and representation
in beauty. And the fact is that higher education is not just about signing up students to go learn
how to do something to go get a job. It's also about preparing the whole individual to participate
in society and civic life. And part of that is the well-rounded education so that we have
people, community members, our neighbors. We have neighbors who who were art majors, who were
engineers, who were physical therapists, who, you know, were sociologists, because all of those
people together make a community. And that's what makes a community rich. So I just, I know,
editorialized letter, but Johnny, I'm going to put that though and go, my, I believe that when we
hear that, hey, we're going to hold space for some of the qualitative metrics. And I just gave
you one. What I'm concerned about though, because I've seen this now, and I'll say I have lived
through two institutions that reduced programs because of enrollment. And we talked about each time,
well, you know, some majors were just going to have to keep, to keep us within the bounds of our
mission. If you're out there listening, I would like evidence that any of these, quote, qualitative
majors have any of them ever been saved? Well, what time, I think what I meant, you know, I wouldn't
necessarily say that they're qualitative majors. It's just the information for the evaluation.
Is, you know, it says it will consider both quantitative, like numbers, like how many students
are enrolled and, and whatnot versus also qualitatively, like what their experience is. What,
what, what, what's reported out as mission fit? And, and, and one of the things, Tim, is we've
talked about this as we, you know, talked about, you know, Jonathan Geirco comes on the show
occasionally. And he's written about that concept publicization. And again, I talked about that
starvation strategy of, you know, the underfunding of public ed, especially higher education.
But when we think about this, you know, we're looking at, we're seeing a corporate sort of world,
you know, private framework mapped onto public discourse. That being, you know, and this came
directly from a legislator in support of these cuts called this a pathway towards right sizing.
And right sizing is corporate speak for layoffs. So again, it's a classic way of saying,
here's how we downsize. And here's sort of the justification and manufactured rationale for it.
So when we come back to him, I want to, I want to refocus our conversation around what you
propose. What is a university for? Let's get into it. What is a university for when we come back?
Bust of pencils.
What's the general only let it education talk, educated educators talking, education talking
university of Wisconsin public education, higher education institutions like ash,
cash, white water, those places, university Wisconsin Madison to eliminating or figuring out
how to eliminate majors, they call them programs, but majors that are not enrolling enough students
over a three year period. We said, is this news? Is this something else? We Johnny and I both,
yeah, it's news. And then Johnny says something else. I came back at going, okay, quantitative versus
qualitative measures, I overemphasized maybe qualitative to mean mission fit, but Johnny, you
came out of that last segment though with with a pretty strong and profound and I think centering
question, what are public universities for? And I'm going to emphasize public universities for,
are they to prepare people to get jobs in there for job training centers? Or are they to prepare
people for life in a democracy to appreciate culture to understand our neighbor? Or is it in you?
What if it's both? I think it's important to add on to your question that is a question
responding to my question, like we're really centering the discussion now on what are universities
for? And again, like just reminding the listener, my take on this, Tim, is that this is like,
you know, a funding crisis reframed as an enrollment problem. But nonetheless, the question I think
is valid. And I want to add, I think it's both, but I want to change a little bit of the first
part of the definition here where you said, should they be job training centers, right? I think
they should, but they shouldn't only be job training centers for what current markets demand,
right? And so when, like, one of the things that's really important about strong public
university systems is that they do prepare people to enter the workforce on a multitude of
different fields, right? Whether the market demands it at the current moment or not, they sort of
sometimes they have these, you know, these, these boons of majors and then, you know, things kind
of slow down and they recalibrate and then they, they bloom again. We know this for those of us
who have been in higher ed over period of time. But, you know, so I think they should, they should
prepare learners to enter the workforce, but not only for what markets currently demand, right?
And I think as part of that, as part of that preparation, this is the other thing is that part
that you called, you know, it should be included in that space for knowledge creation for, you know,
democratic diversity citizenship, cultural preservation, exploration of a different ideas,
you know, a balance of the arts and humanities and the sciences kind of woven together.
And that's one of the great things, I'll be nostalgic for a moment here of sort of their
tradition of universities, as I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some kind of adaptation
in the moment, right? But that it shouldn't be an either or. In fact, if we move to, it's just a
job training center for the current market demands, then we're going to constantly be rebuilding
all the time because the markets are going to change, right? So I think that we should be flexible
and, you know, adaptive, but at the same time, remember, as core value of becoming, let's say,
right now, you know, an engineer, right? Or, you know, a programmer should also be having courses
in philosophy, should also have, you know, an art course or an art history class because it
well rounds what you bring to the workplace, it well rounds what you offer as a potential
divergent thinker. In fact, I listen to industry often as somebody in higher ed, you know, in these
conversations and industries surprisingly, here's some insider information, we'll say, especially
in these sciences, we need well-rounded people ready to enter the workforce. You can learn
to code online before you even go to college. We hire college graduates because they studied
the classics because they've given speeches in their calm class because they've shared space
with other students different than they are, right? You can learn in this day and age,
alone in a room with a computer, a lot of important information, but they value college graduates
for that well-roundedness. And I worry Tim, when we cut the well-roundedness as a way to disguise
that we defunded things and it's no longer affordable, you know, it's funding crisis reframed
what we lose, right? And I can get back into that as we dive deeper into the show or close this
down, you know, reading that article, I did jot down a list of things of, hey, if we do cut these
programs aggressively as we're seeing in states across the country, Wisconsin, what happens?
I, this is happening. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, because, you know, at some point, okay, you know,
now I'm going to be more factual, potentially less philosophical, and understand that, yeah,
there's a math, a mathematical approach to doing this, which makes it feel like we're not
making qualitative decisions. Okay, but so we're going to cut under enrolled programs, all right?
And typically, this is in response to enrollment crises, right? And so what will be left,
then, Johnny, are the popular majors? And so therefore, we won't have an enrollment crisis.
Oh, yeah, but as you point out, market shifts, and now major X that was eliminated is all of a
sudden back in swing. And guess what? You have an enrollment decrease again, because nobody wants
to go to your college, because you don't offer the major that is hot or even bigger, potentially.
People start identifying you as going, I don't know, they don't really do a whole lot there,
except this. So there is something to a diversity of offerings that actually is good for enrollment.
And so, you know, worried about this, I think it's a good point. I don't know how much we're going
to come back, because Johnny, I want to set this up. You and I have graduate degrees, extended
graduate degrees. Are we better because of it? Research is saying we're not. We'll figure this one
out when we get back.
It's busted pencils knocking on your door, thumping on your door, actually.
You know, Tim, Johnny, Jacob, we are here Saturday. Hey, and if you're downloading and it's not
Saturday, thank you also for downloading and listening when you can, because that's the great
thing about busted pencil civic media. You could be listening to it right now somewhere in
Wisconsin, anywhere potentially in Wisconsin. Lots of places in Michigan and Minnesota.
Or trying to always pointing out, if you're in Finland, you can listen by downloading any civic
media show, not just busted pencils. And that's the great thing here is, you know, civic media
producing content in the digital age right now, so that people can get it when they need it and
when they want it. And just happy to be a part of the civic media family from that standpoint.
Johnny, okay, we'll come back with some rise, but I pointed this out. So you are Dr. Johnny Lupinacci.
I am Dr. Tim Slecker. Before the doctor, I became a master's in education, Tim Slecker. Before
that, I had a bachelor's degree. New research. And new. That's a new quote. Yeah, big.
It's around research here. New research. Somebody asked the question, should teachers
get graduate degrees, or actually what they're really saying is,
should there be funding and pay raises for teachers to get advanced degrees when research
shows that people like me and you, Johnny, when we're teaching us having those advanced degrees,
our kids don't score better on tests. Therefore, advanced degrees are not worth the money, not
worth the effort, not worth it. And Johnny, I know where we're both going to go on this. I got
to first point out, go to a Huffington Post 2011, I think it was when some guy whose name was
Dr. Tim Slecker actually wrote about the research back then that pointed out that getting
graduate degrees did not produce better test scores. And what they really said was at that time too,
was teachers aren't better when they get graduate degrees. And come on, man, what are you talking
about? It's just like, I take this offensively from a couple of different directions. So first is,
okay, whatever, it's not associated with raised test scores. Well, okay, what is? You know,
and if so, great. I never went to graduate school and I was never even influenced about going
to graduate school because I thought it would make me better, lecturing, giving students better
access to better grades. I went because being a professional, getting an advanced degree, learning
from other teachers who were experiencing classrooms in graduate classes, learning more becoming
more understanding of what it means to be a teacher. The graduate degree was a professional
obligation so that it was never linked to, you know, people are going to go, well, then why did you do it?
It wasn't a performance enhancement tool. It was a professional development, experiential,
wisdom type of an activity. And I frame this as going, so you really would like to do a way with
educated educators who are going to be educating your kids. This is, so for my neighbor,
do you really want less educated teachers? I don't think so, Johnny.
Well, Tim, there's a couple of things worth pointing out here. I'm going to back up and start with
that, you know, we're reading from an article here from 74 million. As was worth discussing,
an organization founded with the backing of the charter school movement and privatization of
schools. Doesn't invalidate the so-called research. I keep putting the scare quotes up around it.
That's a little of my ego as a researcher of teacher, you know, effectiveness and, you know,
what it takes to become a good teacher. It doesn't necessarily invalidate that research,
but the framing, emphasizing, you know, traditional credentialing is wasteful and alternatives
work better, blah, blah, blah. It's a lines and just, you know, the whole article just speaks of
school reform movements that are based that weakening teacher unions and traditional public
education structures. So look, to me, the point of this outlet is to, you know, to put
information out there that might not be false information or misinformation, but is bias,
you know, to putting teachers down and to, you know, weakening teacher unions and
traditional public education structures. The other thing that's worth noting here are that really
good graduate programs are in constant conversation with industry and with the changed needs of,
like, for example, in teacher and education master's programs, right? A lot of those programs
are formed and shaped like what you learn and the projects that you do in those programs as part
of your advanced degree are often ones that we're, you know, you know, originate from our teachers.
They're getting their advanced degrees, be better teachers. So when you, when you, when you shape
those programs in those ways, right, you make them more meaningful. Meanwhile, in the privatization
era of this, right? Because I think it's like 88% of teacher pay raise is connected with time spent
in a program or in classes to advance your knowledge of the profession, you know, that so many
different opportunities, the market for getting a master's degree, is highly saturated, right?
And so we could say there's some things that we can take from this, although Tim, I tend to want to
take this article and just delete it. Like I do most things I don't agree with. I just put my,
you know, put my mouse over the little x click, go away. No, I don't do that. I read all the
perspectives. But Tim, what engaging with this though, I think it is an important wake up call that
if you're an education program that isn't an any advanced degree program that isn't making a
relevant connection to how you're better at your profession through this advanced study,
then, you know, then you kind of deserve to be caught in your part of the program here.
You're a part of the problem. So, you know, I also want to point out, Tim, that I think you
hit on this. There's a major contradiction here, right? Like on one hand, we're saying, you know,
teachers, advanced degrees don't improve outcomes. Well, they just don't improve test scores. And
what we know about test scores is that you could be a really great teacher. And maybe some of your
students test scores will go up, but great teaching isn't a correlation or causation to higher test
scores. This has been proved with research. So that's not me saying we shouldn't have great
teachers. That's me saying like when we evaluate teachers based on students test scores only,
right? We're missing the the whole point. So I think there's a both hand here, you know,
I'm I'm trash in the article by and large, but I'm also saying there is actually a problem
where there are too many masters programs. And we need to be able to make sure that they're
relevant and connected to advancement in the degree, you know, in the profession like you
talked about, Tim. And I think we need to get away with the language of, are you better? Yeah,
because that quickly further develops the divide further grows the divide between people who will
get college degrees and people who don't. We're all on the same level playing. I know you mean
that. I mean that, but but when we when we're digesting information, you know, this falls
really quickly. This article from the 74 million falls really into quickly. Yeah, I mean,
these teachers think they're so smart because they get these degrees and they're not any better than us.
Yeah. And research shows that they're not any, but it was never you're right. I was never
about better. And I just say, you know, Jacob put up a quote I said in 2011 for the hub post. I wrote
this piece and, you know, graduate degrees were never designed to improve test scores.
You know, and again, quoting from 2011, from me back when we believed education was supposed
to help children understand their world and learn how to thrive in an imperfect democracy.
That's when we believe that a teacher who earned a graduate degree would be better prepared
to serve this purpose, Johnny. So it's not that a graduate degree shouldn't be connected to
being a better teacher. It should. And in fact, when you turn this advanced degree into saying it's
wasted or it's not useful. And you're only saying because of test scores, that actually
devalues teaching and learning and actually devalues children because the other thing was that
guess what research also shows that teachers and curriculum that only focus on a small,
measurable set of testable skills actually harms children, particularly the most vulnerable
who need rich educational experiences outside of just testing math and literacy. In other words,
they need exposure to the world, to history, to art, to all of those things that are culturally
much more deeply embedded in what it means to be a teacher. And so I also was really alarmed at
this too because actually to me, this research is also saying we don't want teachers teaching
the things that really matter, the things that might be uncomfortable, the things that might actually
potentially have kids going home asking questions, the things that might push people to dig deeper.
This was then an attack on critical thinking. And here again, I believe this is another
reinforcement of saying, hey, look, don't be fooled. Don't be getting those teachers educated
because you know when you get educated teachers, you get educated kids. And you know what happens when
you get educated kids, don't you? Oh, you get the 1960s all over again.
Well, Tim, this is just a big privatization effort. And I'm going to relate it as a
blue collar scholar, Tim. It's a little bit different. But you know, one of the things I noticed
as a plumber was some of the best plumbers I was learning from weren't always the ones making
the company the most money. But yet we were given accolades based on how many big renovations
and full redoing of plummings, like how much we sold on a call versus how great of a job we did.
For example, if you found that actually just need to tighten this little bolt over, you know,
this little connector over here and you're good. Just, you know, here's $60 for the call or whatever
it was, you know, you're done. That wasn't a good measurement of how good of a plumber you were
based on how much money you brought back from your call. Same thing with teachers. If we're only
looking at the test scores of their students on particular standardized tests to measure how
effective they are and how much they should get paid, we're missing the point that teachers get
better when they learn from other teachers, which is what happens in quality graduates degrees.
Tim, we're going to come back and maybe talk about how articles, right? Smuggle in ideological
assumptions that we're going to unpack here at Busted Pencils. A bunch of ideology smugglers in
these articles. When we come back, Busted Pencils.
We're back there. Man, it looks so fast. Busted Pencils fully let it education talk.
We are educated educators talking education. Yes, with advanced graduate degrees. I know your
test scores aren't going to go up because of me and Johnny, but who knows? Something else, Johnny,
I do want to comment on one of my measures of a great plumber is when they make sure that the poop
goes out of the house, not into the house. I come on, man. I let the plumbers that jump on those
turtles and make them fly away and then go down the pipes and pop out in the mushroom. That's my
favorite type of plumber. And Johnny is cosplaying as him right now, I think. Oh my god, look at that.
Super Mario. Johnny, you know, both of these articles. So university was constant shedding
programs, research and graduate degrees. You know, definitely news involved in them. Definitely
a little bit of intentional. There we go, misguided in this. You know, I think that is is
hopefully too, you know, say it's not that either of these articles are necessarily presenting
things that aren't true. But what we're why we try to bring these to busted pencils is to kind
of help and say, yeah, there might be in here, but what are the intentions? What's behind this?
And you know, that's critical literacy, critical citizenship is, you know, you read something,
you go, okay, okay, but what else could be going on here? And these are two great examples of
gone. There's there's a lot more going on here than the headlines. I think that's where you were
going. Well, yeah, I think I called them ideology smugglers. Yeah. And that's true of everything,
Tim, although, you know, I'm being a little like maybe it's not sarcasm a little, you know,
pointed with how I'm, you know, accusing these things or labeling them as, you know, smuggling
and ideological perspective. Everything does that. To some extent, and you nailed it, Tim, it's like
doing a critical media literacy, like really read between the lines, taking the information,
jot down the facts and then ask, who's sharing this? And what's the perspective or slant being
purported here, right? And so, you know, for me, these both are good examples of how research-based
arguments smuggling ideological assumptions that are worth unpacking, especially when we're
talking about schools, like one of them deprofessionalizes teaching. Yeah, right? And we're like, come on,
man, like teachers are already down. It's one of the hardest professions to do. No one,
no one is claiming it's easy work out there, yet it tends to be lower pay. And there's a high
rate of burnout and a high loss of how many teachers there are out there that are great teachers,
right? We've talked about that. So, you know, we got an article that, that, you know, further works
to deprofessionalize things. And then another one that's reporting news, less, less ideological
smuggling, you know, and the one we talked about in the beginning of the show, more of a reporting
on what's going on about, you know, cutting particular majors. But again, Tim, I pointed it out
in the beginning of the show, you know, the smuggling here is that making us believe the readers,
us believe that, like, wow, this is really an enrollment problem. Yeah, not. It's a funding crisis
reframed. Yeah, yeah. It's like the reason that we can't afford this well-rounded and enriching
diversity of programs on our campus is because we're massively underfunded and figuring out where
we can cut and what can and can't stay. But here's what I'll close on, Tim. What gets lost
when teachers get deprofessionalized and leave, right? Their schools. What gets lost when we cut
programs like you've talked about that may have low enrollment. I'm putting quotes around that.
But what gets lost? Well, you lose expertise that takes decades to develop, right? You lose
local knowledge and important community connections. We talk about strength of neighborhood and
local democracies. You're going to lose these people because their programs get cut, whether
students or faculty, and they're going to go somewhere else, right? We don't want that cultural
diversity, right? That enriches. You talked about that, Tim. That might go away. Options for
students who just don't fit the mold, right? Where do they go? Well, I guess they don't go anywhere.
If we lose this, if we cut those options, they're gone. And then, Tim, one of my pet peeves,
when you get rid of people with expertise anywhere in any profession, or even in our neighborhood,
or even through just the human, the human condition, where we all die at some point. But when we lose
something, it doesn't come back. And with that, we also lose something that I think is undervalued
institutional memory of what that enriching education, what good teaching can and ought to be.
But once it's gone, folks, it doesn't come back easily. So, you know, heed the warning. Let's hold
on to these things and figure out how we can adapt and change and adjust, but sustain as well.
Nice. And now, it's time for your moment of sin.
Historically, the most terrible things were genocide and slavery have resulted not from disobedience,
but from obedience.
Thanks for listening to this week's busted pencils broadcast. And remember to grab great
podcast, chocked full of more fully-ledged education talk on Apple podcasts, Spotify,
and of course, on the civic media website. Hey, don't be late for home,
Ramon Monday, and make sure you catch next week's class and session on Wednesday.
You can find us on Fridays for a producer, Jacob's choice. And just like today, pencil busters,
you can catch the busted pencils broadcast at 3 p.m. central time across all the civic media
network stations for one hour of your favorite blue collar scholars, hubby dubby, slekker, and Johnny
and keep busted pencils.
you