Oh, I get you going right there when you hear that. You know, it's busted pencils fully
Let it education talk educated educators talking education who Saturday one full hour of busted pencils across, you know, all of those radio stations that make up civic media, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, you're out there, you know, driving around in your car. Like what is this? Hey, this is
busted pencils. It's a show about schools, but actually it's a show about democracy. Actually, it's a show about, oh, I wish my neighbor knew this. Actually, it's a show. Oh, just hang on. You'll, you'll see. It's me, Dr. Tim Selecker, Dr. Johnny Lupin, not you and Jacob chairman of the board.
Man, we are back at it. I cannot believe it's Saturday again, you know, again, we always like to say wherever you are in the, you know, whatever radio station, whatever podcast streaming networking earbud thing you're doing to listen to busted pencils. Thank you. We appreciate it.
You know, we, we enjoyed doing this and we enjoyed knowing that you're out there listening and just think about this right now if you're somewhere, you know, up in, you know, the north woods of Wisconsin, you're listening to a show right now that people in Finland are listening to also. Yeah, that's the reach right there.
Johnny and Jacob, you know, Jacob, what do you think about that, man, Finland Tim, you know, I think it's a great connection. You're making by the way to Finland, because this is I think I'm not going to know this, but a lot of people know it's the second show of Christmas.
Tim and that's where Santa Claus is truly from Santa is from Finland. I think we all know this and I'm not just trying to butter up our finish listeners, Santa's from Finland. There's reindeer there and they know two things in Finland, Tim. They know reindeer and they know education.
Yes, they do. And that's why, you know, we're here. Johnny, come on, man, you look like you're, you're making fun of me for making that can. I'm, I'm not, I'm just, you know, just just buckling in for the ride of the Saturday broadcast and, you know, getting up to speed here and I thought you said airbud, which is one of my favorite movies and he said earbud.
Earbud, man. Oh, I was thinking about the basketball playing the dog that plays basketball, you know,
Spud McKenzie. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're all over the place today folks. No, but Tim, I do agree. It's a great time every Saturday when we get to talk about things happening in education, you know, sort of like education car talk, we just chop it up here and, and talk about.
Things that matter to all of us, whether you're an educator, you know, you're a school leader, whether you're a parent, whether you're a student listening because your parents have the radio on, you know, most of us oldies that listen to the radio, but I, but I, I, I just say Tim, it's great to talk through some of these things, and some of the things that we've kicked around this week,
have been, you know, pretty typical, but one, stayed out to me and it's connected pretty locally to, you know, the Wisconsin examiner putting out some some findings of a recent assessment.
And we got to check in. This is a little backstory before we dive into it for the listener. We got to check in through our group chat and the various times we cross pass throughout the week.
About this topic and we're going to get back into it assessing early learners, like early learners, like pre K, like four year olds, five year olds, first graders, second graders, you know, all the way through third grade are great, like really high stakes assessing around literacy, which I think we all agree, you know, it's important to learn to read.
Like we want all of our kids to be strong readers, we're really glad that schools make an avid commitment to teaching children to read.
But how we assess it is something we've talked about off and on here, and busted pencils and, you know, and here it is again, we have some information about how many of our students are, and I'm going to put scare quotes up because I think it's important to know where students are.
As learners, that's really important. It's why we assess and gather data, but how many students are labeled quote unquote at risk, don't don't don't.
Right. And, and so we're going to get into that a little bit today because it always, I don't know what's one of the old old guys, like I say, really grinds my gears. You know what really grinds my gears.
Is calling kids at risk, but then at the same time, at the same time, Tim, I want to say, like when, when children might be struggling in a particular area, I think it's really important to identify that and provide them with supports.
So I'm, I'm, I'm really interested to talk about the state because I'm on both sides of the coin. I don't like labeling young people, especially Cuner gardeners as at risk.
But then sad thing is there are things that put young learners at risk that they're experiencing. And I think we need to identify those, especially around learning to read this part of it.
But here we have some information, Tim, that kind of makes it sound like teachers are doing a bad job or that kids aren't quite as smart as they used to be. Tim, can you tell our listeners what I'm talking about this point?
Because now I'm just going on and on about the topic of how in the world can you determine that a kid in kindergarten is at risk.
Well, Johnny, okay, we're talking about an article that came out this week in the Wisconsin Examiner and the headline.
I, you know, and I always like to start with the headline because that's typically for a lot of people, not that they're poor readers, but they're busy, they see headlines and move on and headlines sometimes are kind of the nugget that we're stuck with and, you know, let's break this down.
So it's Wisconsin's school literacy reports identify 36% of students as quote at risk.
So Johnny at risk at risk for what? Well, again, listen to Wisconsin school literacy reports. So translate reading.
So Wisconsin reading the things that we look at reports, holy crap 36% of Wisconsin students.
They're at risk at risk of what? Man, this is what we're going to be talking about here because there's there's a lot here and I want to start with first all of all those saying and recognizing that.
Johnny, this is why this topic really, you know, kind of gets me going because right off the bat, it's the headline that ends up to me being the most troubling aspect of this article.
It isn't necessarily the content of the article. It's right away, though, the headline because as I said, you know, my neighbor, who's, you know, working in the factory lots of shifts, you know, putting bread and, you know, good things on the table, they caught the headline and I worry because then I'm talking to my neighbor over the fence, you know, we're out there.
He's like, man, can you believe that 36% of our kids can't read? Like, dude, where'd you get that from? He goes, it was on the headline. I saw it today in the Wisconsin examiner 38% 36% you know, that's a lot of kids who can't read.
And I'm like, okay, you know, neighbor and, you know, we're talking about my neighbor, Joe, I'm like, Joe, hold on a minute because we got a lot to talk about here. And so that's kind of how I like to set this up because I think that this is this is what happens is is that we then instantly move on to, you know, hey, what's next in our lives and we walk around with with this.
What we think is a fact that, you know, holy crap, one third of kids can't read. And you know what?
That is a very troubling statistic or statement. Is it a true fact? Is it a statistic that you can walk around with and actually talk about? No, I think this is what we need to do here, Johnny, as you're saying.
You know, assessment, how do we know what the heck does at risk even mean? All those things, right? And so, you know, there's a complexity.
But at the same time, actually, the complexity with a little bit of, you know, help from Tim Johnny and Jacob, I think we can get a better sense of what's what's what's really going on here because you know at risk. Hey,
I also have another neighbor who's just only saw at risk and is like, wow, lots of kids are at risk like, you know, at risk for what?
Well, and I think that's a better question. But in this one, we're talking about at risk of not being able to read. And that is truly for what we say, you know what?
If if that's true, that's troubling because actually we do know that reading is incredibly important and will have long term effects influences and is even very predictable towards later in life, the types of successes and or not.
That students will face. And so the ability to read is highly, highly causing effect to, you know, where you had it in life. So we are worried when kids can't read.
But does this really mean that one third of kids in Wisconsin can't read.
I am going to say right now, I don't know that that's necessarily true, Johnny, because you stated it first. It says 4K through third grade and understand what that means.
That means three to four year olds are typically in 4K. Okay, all the way up to third grade, that could be kids that are 10 years old. So we're looking at a span of essentially potentially age three to age 10.
And for any of our parents out there listening, going like, oh my god, you know, what my three year old was like as compared to what my seven year old was like world of difference. And yes, let's be honest.
What does it mean to be three? What does it mean to be seven? What does it mean to be 10 means a lot of things. And what we're talking about here, educationally, developmentally, a whole lot is going on in those times. And, you know, I say, especially when we're assessing three to four year olds.
We want to be really careful about making broad statements about what they can and can't do.
And so this is what, you know, one of the first places I think we want to talk about, we're talking about how do you know if a three or four year old is at risk for potential reading difficulties.
You know, and then how do you know that a five year old, a seven year old, a 10 year old is a lot going on there, John, we brought this together, you know, we're going to spend some time.
But when we come back, I want to get right into three and four years old. How do we know if they're at risk? Yeah. Hold on. We'll be right back.
we'll be right back.
Yeah, come on, we're back, it's Busted Pencils, fully-led education doc, educated educators
talking education, Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, Jacob Chairman of the board, me, Dr. Tim Slecker,
at risk for not being able to read, that's what we're talking about here, actually Wisconsin
Examiner this past week, Wisconsin School Literacy Reports, identify 36% one third of students
as at risk for not being able to read, well how do you know that you know what do you mean at risk
and Johnny we were talking about though too when you get past the headline you read a little bit
more deeply into the article you see that we're talking about a sampling of what we say 4k through
third grade and translating that for everybody out there 4k could be as young as three years old
and third grade could be as old as 10 and this is what we're saying that 36% of three, four-year-old
10-year-olds are at risk of not being able to read Johnny how do we know when a three or four-year-old
is at risk of not being able to read that is the question and well at least according to this article
and actually for anybody who's out there who's done any of those sort of teachers out there
you know especially hey pre-k kindergarten teachers if you're listening to the show and you're
like wait a minute we want to hear from you because god we would love to actually have some
conversations so you know reach out busted pencils civic media let us know because we want to talk
to you but yeah how do you know when when a three or four or five-year-old is at risk of not reading
well there are screening tools Johnny that public schools administer tests let's be honest
their tests and we test our three four and five-year-olds to see if they are at risk in other words
do they know their letters do they know the sounds the letters make are they able to see how bringing
certain letters together can form words early quote assessment there too and so you know we might
do things and I you know anybody listening to the show has heard this story before but it's
worth pointing out my daughter in kindergarten in her early learning assessment of is she on track
for reading they used a what was called the dibbles the dynamic indicator of basic early literacy
test dibbles to see if she was quote at risk and one of the dibbles assessments was
how how many and how fast can they read nonsense words and my daughter was not a very fast
nonsense word reader Johnny and we got a call from the kindergarten teacher
um pointing out their concern for my daughter's future because her ability to read nonsense words
was not as fluent as it should be and while the were we worried no we weren't because we said well
what about her ability to read real words in books how she doing on that
and I well we didn't check that like oh so maybe if you gave her like a kid's book and asked her
to read it you might not be concerned about her nonsense word fluency rate and she might not be
at risk of reading now that's a privileged position Jacob right I suppose we could have her read
an actual book but I mean we could do a lot of ridiculous things but I think it's important that
we stick to the nonsense word and make sure she can read them fast too because you know fast
reading is definitely the the sign so but I mean these are some of those things that we kind of
come at what I'm doing but with that story is pointing out okay some of these assessments tell
us some things but they don't necessarily tell us all the things that are there and so when we're
looking at these early assessments I would ask parents to say you know so what is it really telling you
in this case then the other part is this Johnny you made this comment during the break
how many kindergarten teachers and we're putting out a call for you all of you out there how many
kindergarten teachers do you know and I know that have said oh my god if I could just
teach my kids reading instead of testing them all day long we might actually have something
that we could talk about Johnny that was your comment so I'm going to let you ramble on for a
little bit well I don't have a whole lot to ramble on about them with this you know educated
educator talking education that's rambling just to translate for all of our listeners
no but Tim you hit on a point and I would love to hear from early learner classrooms like
here teachers because what I do here from my colleagues that teach in kindergarten and even
first grade you know I mean I've always said this since the beginning of being a teacher
and my first position as a long-term sub in a first grade classroom man first grade teachers
and I'd extend that to kindergarten but first grade teachers you are the heroes oh my god yes
this education system you are truly the ones who make it possible for any of us as teachers
to teach our students because essentially you teach them to read you teach them to be learners
in a formal way that we teach in schools but Tim when we come back I really kind of we can talk
more about this I'm concerned about what this mandatory testing at a young age does the time
that teachers are spending with young people and then how it takes out teacher expertise and the
knowledge that teachers have in real time to respond to what learners need to be better readers
so that's kind of my interest when we come back maybe talk about I wonder how teachers are experiencing
thank you and thank you for joining me for
We're back.
The pencils fully let it education talk educated educators talking education talking literacy
education, you know, in other words, why can't those darn kids read and what the heck are
teachers doing anyway to help our kids learn to read because in Wisconsin, at least according
to some reports, over one third of 4k through third graders are at risk of not being able
to read.
We've kind of brought it to, oh my god, the headlines scares my neighbor into believing
kids can't read teachers are feeling like, oh my god, who put that out there, we're working
our butts off.
Johnny even said last statement, holy crap, so many teachers have been caught up in this
testing and assessment of spending so much time, quote, gathering data on whether kids can
read or whether they're about to read, whether they're at risk of never reading and even going
like, God, I wish I just had some darn time to teach because maybe that might actually
have an effect on the literacy rate if we actually taught instead of tested and man, I've only
been saying that for over 20 years, you know, when you're testing kids, you ain't teaching
them, just put that out there as a fact and I know ain't, ain't a word, but it works perfectly
well for now.
But Johnny, all of this though comes together and put this in the article here too is that,
and this is where I'll come back to saying the headline, the headline causes hysteria,
the hysteria causes anger and lots of voices and those lots of voices then inform their
legislators and then their legislators react because we're in a democracy and like, hey,
we got to do something about this.
And in Wisconsin and Wisconsin is not alone, we have covered this in so many different
shows, quote, because actually Wisconsin, you're not alone in your one third of kids not potentially
being able to read actually the entire country's at risk for this and everybody's been yelling
and screaming and the solution has been a mandated what were curriculum called the science
of reading man, Matt Damon's mom, Dr. Nancy Carlson page has been on to help us understand
what that's all about.
But in Wisconsin, Johnny, that came forward in 2023, Wisconsin act 20, which made major
changes to literacy education in the state.
I will say it's nice that they didn't put the science of reading in here, but actually
Wisconsin act 20.
Pretty much mandates that those changes are, yeah, phonics based science of reading, that's
the solution to all the kids who are at risk and again, whatever at risk means in Johnny.
This is where it's like, okay, look, understand and this is where I get, you know, really kind
of frustrated.
It's like, well, what is, quote, the science reading, Johnny, you put it out there, phonics
other shows.
I'm like, okay.
If we just taught kids to read the way we taught in the 50s, all kids could read because
actually all kids could read in the 50s, which is nonsense, but the other part of this
is just going, here's the civics lesson here that I think that my neighbor and everybody
else out there is where did the effort to mandate a certain quote technique and actually ends
up being a curriculum.
Well, curriculum makers themselves have been the main lobbyists in our legislation houses
of trying to figure out what the people best need have been the ones advocating for laws
that mandate that only their product can be used.
And this is where it's like, well, wait a minute.
So like the alphabet I have hanging in my classroom wasn't manufactured by a science
of reading curriculum maker, you're saying my alphabet doesn't work anymore?
Well, I know that sounds extreme, but yeah, kind of, that's what they're saying is like,
if you're not teaching with the mandated science of reading curriculum, then in other states
where this is incredibly oppressive, teachers can actually be fired for not teaching science
of reading, which could be dibbles and fluency of nonsense words that my daughter was, you
know, exposed to, and think about that ramifications of that.
So John bringing that all to saying, this is why this story that keeps coming up about
kids can't read.
It's not that we're not worried about kids that can't read.
We are.
And in fact, we know that's out there, but from an evidence standpoint, I'd say this,
the number one cause of quote, whatever at risk for reading is, it's lack of food or food
in security.
It is lack of shelter, good housing, lack of health care.
And some form of safety in the situation in which they live.
And one of the biggest indicators, lack of access, not to nonsense words, but lack of
access to just books in general.
And I really wish that we would get to be talking about those issues because in fact,
the number of books, and I think in one another show, we gave Dolly Parton, you know, our
most favorite status because she's the one person out there dedicating her time in all
of her charity to making sure kids in poverty have books in the house.
Because that is one of the biggest, most incredibly effective influences on helping kids learn
to read.
I don't know.
Is that what you wanted me to say, Johnny?
I mean, it sounds that's exactly what I wanted because I felt like Tim, is this just
more of the same like the headline kids are failing, you know, which immediately it seems
so disrespectful to teachers.
And so disrespectful to young learners, like, like, like, where has this come from?
And I said, do we have, then we specifically cover this and have shows again and again
on it.
And yes, you reminded me act 20 in Wisconsin, it was 2023.
And I believe we had some great guests come on afterward, especially from the Wisconsin
educate, public education network, right?
And then, and then there were weak folks and, I mean, just again and again, reminding
me that, you know, act 20 was kind of like from an educator's perspective, which we are
educated educators, deeply flawed law that was more about, you know, pushing forward
canned curriculum and mandated large scale assessments and curriculums that every school
would have to do and have to use.
And you know, it really was disrespectful to public school educators, right, sent the
sentiment that they were in some way not committed to, you know, teaching students to read
or that they weren't working in the best interest of fostering lifelong joy of being a reader.
Right.
These are things that's why I come back around to this.
I have talked and this is all anecdotal, like we've been, you know, given you facts from
reports and, you know, going back to the moment we were reporting early on the act, but
anecdotally Tim, over the last few years, like since then, and Wisconsin's not alone,
and this is happening in states all around the country, that I talked to kindergarten
teachers, first grade teachers, especially kindergarten teachers and preschool teachers,
early learners who say, I am doing so much testing with these kids that it's just not
the same.
There's less time for play-based learning.
There's less time for, you know, just the kinds of ways we had been teaching and I'm
concerned about that Tim, because, you know, I don't think it's important and necessary
for four-year-old to spend a big chunk of their day being tested or to have their teacher
tied up administering tests, you know, so I am more interested in hearing from veteran
teachers and even new teachers who are, you know, literacy experts to say, you know,
what are the things that you know and do to help young people learn to read, tune out,
science of reading, all the legislators seem to have the answers, right, and it's
here by this product, everybody use this curriculum.
It's called science of reading, even though it's not scientific, it's just a brand name
called science of reading, you know, so I think hearing from teachers more on this,
hearing from literacy professors, I think we'll put the invite out, we have them on
the show.
Early childhood educators, Danisha Jones from, you know, defending the early years, right,
you know, those people.
Yeah, I mean, it's been, and let's continue the conversation because I know that even though
I'm, it's my job to kind of digest educational information on a regular basis as an education
scholar and, you know, as a bus to pencils guy, let's bus some pencils together.
But, you know, my neighbor, and even when I'm like a neighbor because I am often, I hear
news about our schools, and I think, huh, yeah, oh my gosh, these kids that are oftentimes,
you know, right outside playing or, you know, in our, in our neighborhoods, are they somehow
worse off?
Are they not potentially going to be as good as we were like, is this common to, like,
are we just making things up sometimes to kind of put, put them behind before they even
start their kindergartners for Christ's sakes?
So I don't know, Tim, that's kind of where I'm at with it, you know, I want to hear more
early educators talking about how as administering this, how has it changed the classroom for
them?
And what do they think about it?
Because they certainly weren't included on the mandate, they weren't just in the mandate,
but man, I mean, you just hit it so hard because when you, when you talk to truly early educators
who have been in this, the ones, again, you say anecdotally, but I know they, you know,
would say that no, this is, you know, pretty much the plurality of us would say, stop the
assessing of babies, okay?
They're babies, three of them, please give them more time and oh, my God, Johnny, be prepared.
Let them play because guess what play actually is really good at fostering early reading?
Who knew that making mud pies and chasing your friend around in the backyard or drawing
and painting and making a mess with, you know, food coloring and things like that?
All of those things, it's actually not play the way we think about it.
What is the most crucial aspect of early childhood is the ability to have access to stimulating
activities, materials, experiences that happen through play.
And if you're a great early childhood institution, early childhood learner, you know that spending
45 minutes assessing three-year-olds on how fast they can read nonsense words, just
what, that's actually harmful to early childhood learning.
They need to be playing, man.
So boy, there's a lot here and holy crap, we didn't even get to the public schooling advocacy.
We'll try, we'll get back.
Yeah, it's almost, yeah, almost time, but hold on, let's see what we can do, let's
see.
It's almost, yeah, almost time, but hold on, it's a little bit more of busted pencils fully
let it, education tuck, educated educators tucking education, Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, Jacob
chairman of the board, me, Dr. Tim Slecker, man, coming up and speaking of which, Jacob
chairman of the board, you've just been kind of sitting back, absorbing this one, my friend.
I have like a sponge, so, so what, what, what's a you on this topic, my friend?
Well, Tim, as an uneducated non-educator and I like to consider myself a layman, I've
got one question for you as an average Joe, and I want to brag, I don't want to sound
like a coastal elite here, but the, the truth is, Tim, that I do know what sound letters
make. Okay, I'm not trying to, not trying to be, oh, look at Jacob, he knows all these
things, but I, I do know what sounds the letters make. Why are you so against it, Tim?
Is that what this is all about? You really just don't want kids to know what sound the letters
make or, or is there more to learning how to read than just knowing about the letter sounds?
I mean, you can tell me, Tim, because I think a lot of us out here, people like me, we love
our letters, you know, what's, what do you got against letters?
I got nothing, man, I, you know, back in the day, letter man. Okay, one of my favorite
episodes, yes, yeah, letter man. I like me some letters. Tim, I've got my pen here,
and my pen here, I just threw it through the glass behind me. David Letterman. David Letterman.
Not that letter, man. That's the one I like, though. No, I'm talking about letter man
from the electric company, one of the classic PBS shows Letterman. Bring me the power, too.
Here we go. So here, I got nothing against letters, but as one of my early learning to teach
reading professors demonstrated for us, yeah, we can teach kids what the letter B says. It says
we can teach kids the, what the letter A says, letter A says, ah, we can teach kids the,
what the T says, it says, uh, and we can teach them that when you put B, A and T together,
that spells by atta. And by atta and a word. So does that make my point, Jacob?
Tim, I understand this canned talking point about the by atta you keep bringing up.
But I mean, I remember the electric company, they did do this. They're like,
Buh, at bat. So, well, what are we missing here between these two things? How do we teach kids
letters, but not have them end up saying, but atta, because I can agree with you on that much, Tim,
I think, but atta, I got no room for that in my education system.
Well, actually, too, you come back to and say, yeah, we need to know those letter sounds to get
us to, um, being able to, you know, pronounce that out. But, um, we need to then move it onto,
bat, the word bat, put bat in a sentence, put bat in a story. Actually, we need to, um, yes,
it's, it's not about saying, oh my god, you can't, you don't want to teach that, you do.
But when you're only, quote, focus so heavily on phonics, the phonetic sounds, what gets lost,
it's the whole word and the whole word that then goes into an entire sentence and an entire
sentence that goes into a story. That's reading. And so I think maybe that's the other part here too,
is that when we're mandating, first of all, prescribed curriculum that costs millions and millions of,
yeah, you, my neighbor, taxpayer money, um, I'm thinking that instead of spending millions on
teaching kids baata, we might want to spend millions like Dolly Parton does and
buy kids really, really great books and make sure that libraries in schools and also
libraries and kids homes are filled not with baata, but books about bats. We're talking about bats
for baseball bats, bats that were in my attic here when I moved into this house, all of those
different kinds of bats, bats that are teachers that organize the particular kind bad ass teachers,
right? There we go. Johnny's like, I think that one's okay, right? Jacob? I'm going to look
into it. I'll find it. I'll let you know. Well, because we've interviewed bats on the show before,
and I don't know, anyway, but yeah, there's a lot here. So, hey, before you're worried out there,
driving around listening to busted pencils or in the, in the garage with you as Johnny point,
I won't say it, you know, certain pants that you might be wearing or if you're downloading the show,
if you see a headline that says one third of kids can't read, ask some more questions, ask some of
your other like, is that really true? Is it really going on? Ask a teacher, ask kids, um, because it is
something to be concerned about when kids can't read, but it might be that the reality is actually
a little bit deeper and that some of the solutions we might be prescribing might have absolutely nothing
to do with actually teaching kids to read and might be actually a handoff of your taxpayer dollars
to some curriculum company that lobbied your senator or legislator. And now it's time for your
moment of sin. I can understand pessimism, but I don't believe in it. It's not simply a matter of
faith, but of historical evidence, not overwhelming evidence, just enough to give hope, because for hope,
we don't need certainty, only possibility.
Oh, imagine the possibilities. So many. So thank you for listening to Pusted Petsals broadcast
today. And remember to grab great podcasts, chock full of more fully-ledded education talk on
Apple podcasts, Spotify or of course on civic media. Hey, don't you dare be late for a home
room on Monday. Make sure to catch us next week for class and session on Wednesday. And on Friday,
of course, you'll find producers choice with Jacob. And just like this weekend, tune in to listen
to the Pusted Pensals broadcast every Saturday, your favorite blue color scholars, Tim and Johnny.