That is the most in your face intro because that's all we do here busted pencils um we're in your face
and if you ever have an opportunity to see us on video you might be like please don't be in our
phases because the three of you are not the most pretty things to look at um and I'm speaking for
Johnny and Jacob and whether they want to argue with me and insist that no they are uh camera
putting um I'm going to say that no they're more like camera vinegar just like me. Tim you're so
money you don't even know it all right buddy you got to get some self esteem you're you're you're
like a handsome Scott Galway all right I'll take that um although um luckily the camera does not
cut below by my man boobs so um and you know hey it's so it's welcome to the Saturday
one full hour yes and as we always like to point out on the Saturday show those of you
particularly out there um in your cars the the number one place where most people still do listen
to radio you're like what is this hey it's busted pencils it's Tim Johnny and Jacob it's a show
about education oh my god blackboards bulletin boards punishments writing assignments no no no
it's actually about democracy and we welcome you to keep the channel right where it is because
think you're gonna enjoy a little bit of this if this is your first time and those of you loyal
listeners thank you every Saturday um for being in the car and as we pointed out last Saturday too
even those of you um out in the the workshops doing the things that you do in workshops we're not
even gonna talk about the um um potential of the way that certain sweatpants can be used in those
days we're not gonna go there anymore Jacob's laughing but man so much going on in education
I was just thinking this is a Saturday where man we we got to get re-acquainted with going like
what's happening in the world education news again listeners out there going wait there's
news about education oh my goodness there's news about education and um you know got a whole
bunch of stories here today knowing who we are though the chances of us getting through every one
of these stories is probably close to uh not gonna happen but I'll just point it you know give
you some of the the thoughts out there hey the department of education Linda McMahon has something
to say uh we want to hear about her Texas well you know Texas is always doing something
and uh there's a bit of a little bit of a scuffle about what we should be teaching towards that
American history there's a shortage of programs to prepare future butchers who knew that learning
to be a butcher yes I guess what that requires an education right you just don't go out and shoot
your deer and start cutting you got to know what it is you're talking about and for anybody in
largely the Wisconsin and Michigan and Minnesota you know what I'm talking about you know if you're
like me I don't mess with that I hand it over to somebody who knows how to cut the meat the right way
and so um what happens though when we don't have places for for how to learn to do that talking
about that and you know so much else and hey want to point this out Wisconsin particularly in
Madison but actually it was mandated that every teacher and administrator be trained on how to
teach 1950s style reading um yes that's what I'm calling it or as what other people are saying
the science of reading and guess what there are some teachers in Wisconsin who still have not
met that obligation so lots to go on but Johnny first and foremost so we kind of teased it
in the the the Wednesday show but hey president trump seems like he's making good on the deal
that gonna close down the department of education and in fact six different sections of the
department have been shuffled off into other federal departments but Linda McMahon who is probably
one of the most if not the most least qualified person although Betsy DeVos might be up there just
as much the current secretary of education wrote an opinion piece for the USA today the shutdown
proved just how little the department of education will be missed and this is quote the very first
part of her paragraph in the USA today our nation just experienced the longest government shutdown
in its history hey students kept going to class teachers continued to get paid there were no
disruptions in sports seasons or bus routes the shutdown proved an argument conservatives have
been making for 45 years the US Department of Education is mostly a pass-through for funds well
they're just better managed by the state Johnny is this truly the end of the federal Department of
Education Tim I mean I don't know it appears to be it's been talked about for some time actions
you know help us better understand whether that's happening and how that's gonna look but I hate
to say we're in a wait and see position but that's sort of where I've been following this like
let's wait and see and you know we're seeing some action we're hearing more words but we're
starting to see some action with those words and you know I don't know if it's the end end but
it certainly feels as though it's an idea or I should say more of an idea it's a it's a function
that's going into moratorium right this idea this you know you know this this service of having a
federal department of education I think it's served an important purpose I think it stands to
serve an important purpose and I especially emphasize that in relationship to things like
special education and you know federal funding that's been a huge part of you know underwriting
literally you know funding you know public schools in this country which we know are under attack but
are essentially the better off of democracy so I think it ought to remain you know but let's
wait and see and here we're seeing some actions that are showing us that for now it's at least
going into moratorium it's not there yet it's not there yet but they're moving things right they're
vacating things out and placing them elsewhere where exactly I'm not so sure because it's a
lot of words and as we're seeing these actions you know we remain in this wait and see position
I think as part of that wait and see having discussions like this Tim are so important not just
here on bus depensals right and for you listeners out there but especially for you know democratic
citizens who are you know speaking to their legislators and state legislations that are you
know working on budgets and thinking through how are they supporting public education I think there
is important advocacy work that needs to happen to amplify these conversations that say hey it might
not have been perfect but if we get rid of it what do we have and what's it going to be like and so
should we or shouldn't we put the department of ed into moratorium because I don't think it's
going to go away because I anticipate seeing it back if it does but but I think it's you know
a wait and see doesn't mean just sit on our hands I think having these conversations and meaningful
ways and you know advocacy groups out there and and ed scholars and and policy makers need to be
pretty vocal about the ways and and we see that the ways our students teachers schools communities
that's you parents out there listening to right are going to be impacted by these moves and changes
look yes all of that but I'm just gonna go with pointing out the reality here though too
why 45 years of hatred towards the department of education I don't know it's because Jimmy Carter
put it in place and we know that anything Jimmy Carter did had to be bad and so we have to get rid
of it but what I want to do though here though is is the rhetoric that particularly this administration
is using and and yet the reality of what's behind their rhetoric I think needs to be fully blown
out here so again quoting from the USA today which would be actually directly quoting from Linda
McMahon she says I know that education is best managed by the educators and leaders closest to
families because I have witnessed innovative schools and outstanding educators delivering for
students across the country wow we will continue to reduce federal micro management with every
tool at our disposal the agency has advised states on how to be flexible with their title funds
title listen and I know there's somebody out there gone that's awesome that makes sense
Johnny and Tim don't you want teachers and schools and community members and parents making those
hard decisions about what's best for education yes I do listener yes Johnny does listener yes Jacob
does listener however let's look at the reality of what this administration is also putting
into place they are actually mandating what is not allowed to be taught something that should be
truly at the core of looking at and said so yes I'm talking about diversity equity and inclusion
and in fact American history so much for the non micro managing because we now have a federal
government that without a department of education is fully into deep micro management at the
standpoint of literally changing the curriculum and mandating what specific version of American
patriotism I'm just going to focus on that one must be taught by all and if you don't even has
been floated that the federal education federal people in charge of education will revoke teaching
licenses based on non compliance now this is the reality that actually comes into focus when you
want to hear about quote the rhetoric of we want to give education back to the states to the
educators to the leaders closest to the families to build innovative schools except we don't
don't this is the reality of the federal department of education so I guess my conclusion to this
is yeah you know what I don't really really care if they're successful what we need to be
concerned about is continued federal overreach that will permeate throughout whether we have a
department of education or not and so that's the reality listener that you're out there saying
who should make those decisions hey don't be fooled the federal government is still saying
well it's actually us who are still in charge huh busted pencils we're in charge so here
be back in a minute
yeah we're back you know I tried guys just want you know I during that break I tried to
put in a phone call to to Linda to ask her if she might want to you know come on busted pencils
and talk about her op ed I didn't get an answer but I got some kind of recording that said
selector if you keep it up oh actually Linda was going to do a handful of hair to you but
looked like somebody already did that to you I was like wait a minute that seemed awfully mean
don't you guys to be picking on me like that um yeah anyway was that a real story is lent
is Linda McMahon going to attack you Tim no well I think she can't do the old you know famous
wrestling move of grabbing a handful of hair and taking my head into the turn buckle because as
they pointed out somebody had already done that to me because I have no hair they were making fun
of a bald guy I see okay I yeah maybe this is the old radio hand of me I was trying to make sure
that we we mentioned that you know Tim is bald for those listeners at home the and yes and thanks
for entertaining my my delusion that actually Linda McMahon would even have an answering machine
that would have something to do with my reality but you know again lots of education news so keep
that going I saw this one though um fellas that I just who knew but um a dying art and this is
coming out of the 74 74 million dot org check them out uh education yes holy crap a whole national
education news site but title a dying art with butchers disappearing high schools look to step in
and so in Montana Fergus high school program looks to connect kids with their food Johnny who knew
that cutting meat was a dying art I mean Tim it makes sense I mean I love the idea of like our career
pathways in the work we do being connected closer to food and I certainly think meat cutting as it's
referred to in the industry right butchers are meat cutters you know is a skill that you learn uh and
and I get excited about this as part of like your high school education and can even carry into
I think really creative and innovative uh you know college degree programs uh you know it sounds
I I mean I certainly see less butchershops right and you know and uh you know I think this makes
sense uh especially as a big strong advocate of you know that we should have like local food sources
and local skills related to food preparation and part of that preparation and meats uh and meat
dishes this is where we get our meat from and you know I I didn't know or particularly even think
of it as a dying art or you know skill but obviously if you don't invest in you know recruiting
and then teaching I think traditionally meat cutting taught through an apprenticeship
right lots of on the job entry level positions you start as a meat clerk and you work your way up
and you do apprenticeships that lead to you know often certifications that you are required
right a food handler certification often required by law and local areas states and whatnot
makes a lot of sense to me but I didn't think of it as a dying art or skill but that makes sense and
man where there's need right we talked about this before higher education is part of a market
economy you know and you know in supply and demand if there's not you know if there's a demand for
and there's not adequate supply then that's an area that we should be looking closely at and
being part of it what I think is cool though about this piece and you hit on it when you early
went on to this is that well well yes that quote butchering the art of meat cutting is dying but
but actually what this high school really does here though is brings home that as this continues
as the preparation of the food that we eat continues to get further and further away
from those of us who consume the food there's also just a disconnect of understanding
what goes into getting the food to the table and so they're bringing forward by using
butchering and meat cutting as a skill that they can use to help bring back
that sense of not just quote having more certified butchers out there but to bring an awareness
back that actually working with food you know what we might have a more appreciation of the work
that goes into giving us the ability to provide and eat and so I like this idea of this not just
being hey you know we need to teach kids to be butchers again no it's actually coming from a deeper
philosoph which is a good thing but it but there's a philosophy in this though too that Johnny
just for me has this sense of going like hey we need the community kids everybody to understand
where your food comes from and what goes into it to get it to that point and even potentially going
the more and more distant it gets from you in how it then comes back to you there's all kinds
of things that we should be knowledgeable about and maybe actually the more closely we can get
food for us the more healthy we can be and you know what that might even mean actually learning how
to cut your own meat wow told you out there listening you'd be like we ain't talking bulletin
boards here we're talking about food cutting meat and what's next not teaching reading in the
1950s busted pencils we'll be right back
you feel like I'm being chased around by somebody with a butcher knife when I hear that music
busted pencils fully let it education talk educated educators talking education yeah talking
Linda McMahon talking butchering and actually Johnny during the break found you know at you know
just to point out Madison College Wisconsin a one-year artisanal I think that's how you
are artisanal depending on how you want to pronounce that modern blitchery program that covers
farm-to-table process meat quality and preparation and in Minnesota Ridgewater College offers a meat
cutting certificate and an advanced meat processing certificate focusing on retail wholesale
skills including sanitation packaging and fabrication and Jacob as you reminded us too you know we
we've done shows on the the lumber industry and the actually wood sciences and actually working
at a sawmill and seeing that there are like Madison College like Ridgewater College this was
the University of Wisconsin gosh which one's way up there now I've
boom anyway they're in partnership with with their wood sciences uh university Wisconsin
superior right that's the one time it's up there by Lake Superior yes yeah you know but what's
really cool this is innovation at work here and you know bringing local expertise local skill sets
and saying that um you know what there are educational opportunities here and again keeping
the economy this is the other keeping the local economy going by making sure that we continue
to provide local opportunities so again you know hey you're listening out there too this is a great
opportunity let us know about any innovative kind of education types of programs happening out
and you're you know wherever you happen to be listening to this show whether it's truly in a car
on Saturday or if you're listening to it as a podcast we always point out our Finland listeners
listening on the podcast you know we want to make sure those and we know there's a lot of innovation
going on out there but let us know how that's working and you know though when we talk about all
this innovation I got to point out that what appears to be innovation or sold is innovation and
repackaged this innovation yes I am talking about if you've heard it the science of reading
yes we have done so many shows on the science of reading in fact one of our great and favorite
guests Dr. Nancy Carlson Paige Matt Damon mom Matt Damon's mom has been on a few times to talk
about the problem with the science of reading however though a new article that had just come out
in the cap times pointed out that a lot of Wisconsin teachers have not finished the mandate
of being trained in how to teach the science of reading and I got to say so what
um please keep those ones that haven't had the training save them in some special place
so that when this silliness disappears that you'll have a few people left who can remember when
that the teaching of reading is a very deep art and science that requires lots of professional
thought independence and an ability to see each kid as a unique learner who may approach reading
and words and letter formation in so many unique different ways and yeah you know what I've been
thinking about the science of reading really this is um what they're saying here listeners we want
them to teach reading like they used to teach reading in the 1950s when all kids could read you know
like they'll leave it to beaver kids everybody and leave it to beaver could read and that's when
the teaching of reading and you think oh god well there are so many things to first of all
back when anytime you hear somebody say back when realize that their mythology of back when
is exactly that is a mythology because back when when things were supposedly great
I got a whole lot of people who can tell you that back then they were living in a whole lot of
pain and suffering and so whatever somebody's back then utopia is was also somebody's back when
hell existed that may be a little rough for pointing out but you know what teaching reading yeah
we're talking about phonics we're talking about A says A B says B T says T you put a B and an A
and a T together and that spells at ba atta ba atta that's it it's a ba atta Tim what's a ba atta
I don't know but if I say phonetically B A T together it says ba atta you're like well I thought
it was a bat that's what I thought too but the science of reading would have you know that that's
a ba atta Johnny you're gonna confuse my friend but what's what's the bad one yeah I mean less confused
more you know I learned to be a teacher and then you know really no no but in an era where I think
we referred to this at least in our discussions and classrooms and amongst teachers you know
talking about the importance of literacy we all agree in a democracy teaching
children to read is really important and all of us a certain level of literacy in the of the
written word is incredibly important in the 1950s it was incredibly important in the 80s the 90s
the 2000s we prefer to those what's the odds right and then the 10s and then you know in this
era although Tim you brought up before that it might be that reading is it still it's still
important but it may be less important to someone's literacy understanding literacy as a whole
than it that we used to think it was that's that's controversial but it's a hot day I'm not saying
we don't need to learn but I mean you've said it before that certainly you read less I know I
read less now and I know that young people are are getting information on a multitude of levels
that that brought in how I might approach literacy right and I'm this is not me saying we
shouldn't teach children to read and learning to read isn't important isn't the only way that we
get our information so that there's this is a little bit of a changed era but I loop back around
to I learned to be a teacher in the midst of what I think we could we're talking about back then
Tim we can refer to as the reading wars and I thought man if you're listening then you talked
about the reading wars there without calling it that can you like lay out that what was that
mean there were two sides to the reading wars that for our listener just given a little bit of a
cultural history lesson and education teachers out there especially veteran teachers you remember
this Tim what like tell our listener break it down simple words blue collar scholar style what are
the reading wars the reading wars there was a vision of what we call whole language the whole
language approach to teaching reading which was this concept of you know I'd say at its radical
form something you say well you know you don't need to teach phonics kids absorb through being
exposed to great books literature and that actually the direct instruction holds readers back
which then well the direct instruction camp which we're now calling the science of reading the
phonics people said oh my goodness we just grew you know just saw the results of whole language and
these kids can't read whole language is bringing down a whole nation and and so there was the push
back the as you said Johnny the reading wars so whole language versus direct phonetic instruction
and as any veteran teachers out there is saying it's going yeah I've lived through them three different
times which really points out that it continued back and forth battle that actually to me and we
pointed this out with Dr. Nancy Carlson page met Damon's mom that the latest attack though was not
necessarily on whole language but was on what we were calling balanced literacy and to me this
was just absolutely a total misunderstanding of of balanced literacy because balanced literacy
somehow took on the oh it's the new whole language and actually balanced literacy was exactly what
it sounded like which said hey some kids come to school already reading we should make sure that
they have more stuff to continue reading some kids come to school and still need to work with
letters and letter sounds and a teacher should balance that approach in other words teach kids that
need phonics and word recognition phonics and word recognition teach kids that are already reading
more advanced reading critical skills and giving them more access it was balanced but somehow
even balanced in today became offensive because I think it became offensive because part of balance
still recognized that there are some kids that don't need phonics and this is where I'll point out
to me which is the real issue and in fact when you move into the readers in the whole
whole language whole literacy standpoint you start giving kids access to quality things to read
and that's where it falls apart because some of the quality things to read those are some of the
things that make some parents uncomfortable and so what's the easiest way to do away with uncomfortable
required reading make sure that everybody only gets taught scripted reading lessons in controlled
literature assignments that never allow kids and teachers to delve into what it means to actually
read interesting controversial informative literature that's the reality so when I say about
the 1950s please let us go back to the days when we just taught kids to read about Dick and Jane
and they didn't have to learn about heterodormative crap. Tim's do's in the sarcasm there just
just for you listeners that share a lack of sarcasm detector like I do I'm learning to Tim let me
summarize really quickly before we go to break though you know what you were saying is the reading
wars taught us teachers that that balanced approach you know that we needed more than one tool
to address the different needs our students have and we had an error of teaching that but
Tim if I might add the science of reading which by the way isn't science that's a brand name
science of reading science of reading said hold on we could make a whole lot more money if we
did away with those two and said you all have to buy this canned curriculum that's the science of
reading and it's the way and you need it so buy this snake oil teachers every school district
and every superintendent out there and all the development and certificates and educational
materials that cost money with it it seems like it's a market monopoly move not a best practice
I'm up it's hospital fully let it education talk educated educators talking education teachers
who teach teachers how to teach something about coaches doing some kind of other stuff man we got
it all here but Johnny man talk about it Linda McMahon writing an op ed piece celebrating the
destruction the dismantling of the Department of Education a school in rural Montana bringing back
the art of meat cutting and as you point out actually locally Madison College in Wisconsin
and Ridgewater College in Minnesota and geez a lot of Wisconsin teachers haven't been exposed to
1950s reading indoctrination and as I pointed out please keep them sequestered until this next round
of the reading wars fades away so that you'll have some qualified teachers who can remember back to
balanced literacy that's a lot of stuff to be pointed you know talking about just in in one one hour
here Johnny that's a great conversation on Saturday afternoon Tim in a mini little history lesson
then there of what are the reading what what was there are the you know reading wars or the reading
war right I think that's always been an interesting one to me phonics versus whole language
than the balanced approach and now you know the science of reading to me I said this at the you
know as we went to break in the last segment the most recent iteration of this just feels like
a giant market opportunity to say wait you know what we want to standardize it all because with
standardization means you know potential monopoly of a market or at least a lot of profit to be had by
those creating materials that are approved and stamped as science of reading with a really
unique brand science of reading right which I've just moved back around I was shocked to learn
this a few years ago when it really came in on under the radar on our show and we had some literacy
experts on you know to speak to it like taught us science of reading isn't really the research on
reading it isn't scientific method applied scientific kit census you know coming together it's a
brand it's a set of materials that companies have put together not even educators or educational
researchers does that you know what here is the newest best thing you need in your schools to guess
what help you be proficient which is another term manufactured by right so I'm talking about like
a stacked deck here to grow a market of educational materials which every principal out there
listening every teacher's like oh no we've been through this and we go again but Tim you also
emphasized an important piece related to democracy it's legislatively mandated so
isn't really great teachers and principals out there are like okay okay we see this product for
what it is do we really need this you know my grandmother used to always make jokes about paper
towels and say you know do we really need paper towels I've got a drawer full of what she called
mappinas that's a that's like an Italian-Americanized slang word for like kitchen towel right I have
basically these things and you go and you buy these rolls of paper towels silly silly young people
right so is the science of reading the paper towel of the Italian kitchen right I don't know
but I like to remind our listeners it seems like that to us but but you brought up that key point
that legislators we're in a democracy imagine legislators saying no you can't use your
traditional kitchen towels in fact if you do you'll no longer be allowed in the kitchen you have to
buy paper towels and a similar thing happened and which which is why we're talking about it here on
plus of pencils is because we say here it's our civic duty to say legislators come on are you
really here to promote economic growth and educational materials are you here to promote literacy
if it's the latter then stop forcing schools and districts to mandate science of reading if they
wanted mandate anything Johnny the truest practitioner of any form of science of reading
mandate that Dolly Parton continue to distribute books everywhere because actually scientifically
one of the most proven tactics to making better readers is having access to books lots of books
so legislators mandate Dolly Parton continue to distribute books and do away with the reading wars
for goodness sakes because man you really want kids to read give them books and Dolly Parton is
our best example of that right now so and with that though wow one hour and you know what that
means now it's time for your moment of Zen
the future is an infinite succession of presence and to live now as we think human beings should
live in defiance of all that is bad around us is itself a marvelous victory
thanks for listening to buster pencils broadcast today and remember to grab great podcasts
chock full of more fully let it education talk on apple podcasts spotify and of course
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of your favorite blue collar scholars tim and johnny and keep busted pencils
you