Oh, there it is. We are. Oh, you know who we are. Damn Johnny Jacob busted pencils fully
let it education talk. Educated educators talking education. John and Gordy that's for you guys
out there. Educated educators talking education. Everybody doesn't get that. John and Gordy the
morning guys in Madison. Sometimes they're always fumbling. What does it you guys say that
education and educators doing something about teaching like come on. Educated educators talking
education. How much easier of a tagline do you want than that? Oh, there's more than one word in
it. Educated educators talking education. Okay, so it's three different endings to educate. I
guess that's tricky Jacob. I tell him you give me one root word and I can do anything with it.
I just don't understand how they'll occasionally mix, you know, what is it? Educators teaching
educate teaching. What? I don't even know what that means. We don't do any. That's got a different
route. Tim, I can't understand teaching, but you tell me educate. Yeah, that's what we do. Jacob,
it's produced a choice today and I'm not nervous. Tim, you've come such a long way on this show
from back when we started. You were so scared and timid of my crazy out there questions. I think
we're starting to build a real synergy here where we all trust each other. We can have these
wonderful conversations and we can all agree that Jacob has really good questions and that's
something we can all agree on. That's, yes, we all can. And Johnny Lupinati, I know he's, he
can't believe that I'm not anxious today. No, it's like Jacob said, you've come a long way, Tim.
All right. Well, all right. Good show, guys. Thanks for coming. That was a good one. Woo.
Tim has shown growth. He is, he is proficient. Oh, yeah, we accomplished efficiency.
We accomplished proficiency. I'm not at grade level. I'm a proficiency. Yeah.
Well, and with that, go, Jacob. Now for your moment of the intro to the show, for
yes, producer, I think I'm choice chairman of the board. You and I will have two choices.
Chairman of the board, Jacob. Oh, Jacob chairman of the board.
I've got the board. It's spelled B-O-R-E-D. We choose to go to the moon. Life's a tough choice.
You chose one.
Guys, I've got something really special planned for this episode. I don't know. This is,
I don't know if you guys like this or not, but I do have a clip.
Oh, I love that. Would that be okay if I play the clip?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's listen to this clip, which we'll introduce today's show.
When your vice president, Dick Cheney, when he shot that guy in the face.
Did he, how did he tell you? Did he call you? Did he come in and close the door?
You know, how did that go down? Well, every time, uh, Cheney would come in, a lot of people would
yell duck. Guys, that's what we're talking about today. And I don't, I hope I'm not breaking
this anybody. So, you know, if you're very emotionally attached to Dick Cheney, this might be
hard to hear, but Dick Cheney, 46th vice president of the United States passed away this week at
the ripe old age of 84 years old. Cheney's passing has led many to begin assessing his legacy
as a politician and public figure. While Cheney was a lifelong Republican who served in the
administrations of multiple Republican presidents, most notably as George W. Bush's
scheming vizier, his vocal opposition towards Donald Trump laden life has made him all the more
controversial, whether you're liberal, conservative, wherever you are, wherever you came from,
you probably hate Dick Cheney. So that's got me thinking, guys, how do we go about teaching our
young people about controversial figures like Dick Cheney without devolving into just crapping
all over him because he sucks. What do we do? That's why today, dear listener, I've invited two
highly controversial educators to join me to talk about just that. Dr. Tim Slecker, Dr. Johnny
Lipponacci, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having us on today, Jacob. I really,
really like it. Always look forward to the invite. Much appreciated. So I'm going to start us off with
just the general question here. In general, not talking about a specific figure, but how do you
approach, Tim, talking about controversial figures with your students? I know that for me,
when my little brothers will come to me and ask me, tell, what is this person all about or what
was this historical event about? The first thing I do is take a big sigh and go, am I going to say
what I think about this or am I going to come up with some sort of fair-minded answer about
this figure? I think that's kind of part of the process. Tim, hit us with it. Well, you're asking
a good question. If I'm going to teach about it as opposed to have a conversation in a bar over a
beer, right? Because there's a different setting. And so to ask about what we're teaching, there's
a level of appropriateness that would be with anything. And if we're talking about human beings,
controversy, or is it just the reality of the complicated nature of what it means
to exist as a conscious member of the species, I've only met maybe two people who
I would easily probably say, yeah, no dirt that I could ever think there would be on any of them.
But everybody has something. And so I think though asking that question, Jacob, it depends
on when you're asking it. Because if you're asking it today in 2025, it's not the same answer I
would have given in 2003 when Cheney Bush, Bush Cheney, were fully in command and and rock and
Iraq. Because at that time, you were a big fan. I'm mad. I was like, yeah, I can't wait to
get me a chainsaw and get me a beer with George W. No, and I say that because I probably presented
a critical approach. But again, we're talking about teaching, particularly teaching social studies.
And for me, it's the sense of always pointing out that if there's a critique that we want to put
out there, what's the evidence behind the critique? And so my own individual either liking or
disliking someone was not really the point because I was doing my best to say, you know, if there
is a criticism, let's lay it out there and let's put it out there. So at that time for Cheney,
we looked very closely, my students and I at his connection to Haliburton. And whether or not
his, you know, when it was the CEO or whatever he was at the time, whether that had anything to do
that might conjure up some senses of being like, well, should he be allowed to do that?
You know, should Haliburton get all of the contracts to rebuild the mess they blew up?
You know, so I think on that sense, you know, we present it now today. Wow.
Man, I, you know, controversial figures. I mean, I think anytime you're going to teach controversy
today, my advice still stands, which is as objective as you can with lots and lots of evidence to
be a part of the discussion. But I guess I would, I think I would find myself treading much more
lightly. I don't know that I would say we're not going to talk about that. But
because the time in which we do these things, sadly, influences the way we teach, I'm not advocating
for that as being the way I'm just kind of being more realistic now, what 20 years later.
So that's my answer.
Johnny, what do you think about Tim's answer and what is your answer to that question?
Well, I think it's a tough one, man. I like Tim's and very similar approach in terms of,
you know, your question being, how do you teach about any controversial figure?
I think you encourage students, especially if we're talking about right now, if we're teaching about,
you know, the life works of, you know, former vice president Dick Cheney, then, you know, we're
looking at this idea that we're saying, hey, go out there and gather as much information as you can
around the work and accomplishments and controversies that surround this person.
And and let's tease him out in class. Let's talk through it. Let's gather the information,
get multiple perspectives and see, you know, what can we learn? I always like to avoid good or bad,
right? But it's kind of like one of those dichotomies we find ourselves in like the purpose of that
of the of that exercise isn't to determine for us whether we think Dick Cheney is a good guy or
a bad guy, right? Is he a hero or is he a villain? But to rather look at, you know, the evidence and
sort of make see the muddiness of people's works. You know, and one of the things I always like,
you know, when people ask about, you know, what do you think about, especially when there was
that massive turn, right? Because we can most think of like, if we pick two big, big moments,
we can think of like his, you know, architecting and support of the Iraq war. You know, that's one
of the big ones. Aside from all the jokes, the man, the man has a long reign of like of SNL skits
and jokes and and all kinds of things that they use part that that his character or the role he was
in, you know, people liked to portray. But the big things being, you know, in my mind and in my
teaching career, you know, his architecting and in position on the Iraq war. And then, and then
second to that, then now like that bit, that massive turn, right? There's a story for you.
What one of the things I would situated around Jacob is that, you know, there are political or,
you know, key figures in a democracy or in learning history or in any part of the world or our
lives or whether we're looking at sports, right? Or whether we're looking, you know, at, you know,
the arts, there are artists who are complicated. And there are certainly complicated things about
the former vice president Dick Cheney and part of that complication invites us to be learners.
Right? That's not like any teacher saying, well, let me tell you, he was a bad man or here's
why he was great. You know, you're not teaching, you're just like sharing. And especially if any
teacher say that's like, not our, not only are you not teaching, but you're kind of full of something
that comes out the back end because everybody knows you can't be just good or are bad. Unless
here, I guess mother Teresa or something else and even still, you know, we always learn that,
that human beings, you know, have, you know, things that they contribute that we could chalk up as
like a win and maybe in retrospect, we could chalk up as a loss. But one thing I would frame it
around as I would say, you know, maybe in my book, one of the all-time best bad cops in a duo
of presidencies, you know, we all know about good cop, bad cop, you know, Stone Cold Vice President
Dick Cheney, ultimate bad cop on things. We can also say, you know, dedicated his life to
service of his country. All right. So that's a big one there. Ten points and but complicated
because we would often say during that, during that presidential administration,
is it in service of your country? Is it in service of a company that you have a big stake in,
a hollow burden? But lots of interesting things for students too, especially this generation of
learners to dive into and really learn the nuances of things. And a man of consistency, I'd say,
and maybe some listeners might say, oh, come on, now that's not true. You know, because here,
one minute, he's for the Republicans and then the next, he's speaking out against Trump. But,
you know, I think truly, a man who stuck by what he believed was right with conviction,
right? And so that's where, you know, if you have your beliefs and your systems and you stand
by them, I guess, you know, in some context, I find that at least not only admirable, but of
interest of study, even when I disagree. But it also explains why maybe he would, you know, not
favorite Donald Trump. I mean, he wasn't ever a vice president or even his rise to that. He
was never known as a figure who pandered much to the polls, right? Remember getting really into
the weeds. It's a little bit of an analytical memoriam here going on. But remember Tim, there were a
lot of, you know, I think there were a lot of jokes that I would call homophobic jokes at the
expense of the fact that his, you know, daughter came out as lesbian, which was a big thing and his
support of his daughter, you know, being confusing for the siths out there, both on the, you know,
liberal side and on the Democrat side. That's a listener joke. If you listen along enough, you know,
I always say only siths speak in absolutes, right? So, you know, that's kind of thing is like,
you know, people would say like, I don't get it. He's Republican, but he's okay with this stuff.
Like these are realities folks about people, right? Their families and their positions and they,
you know, they reflect on life and change. So even if he did change, as some may say, when he
showed his unsupport of Donald Trump in this current administration, you know, back in those
election times and, you know, I think people do change. But I see him as a man of pretty consistent
if he believes something is right or wrong, like he stands by his belief and, and, you know,
did his jobs. So interestingly enough, we would look at that like figures in history that are
controversial, as you said, or that I would say invite us to be to do our work. Invite us to consider
the gray, you know, to get into the nuances of the situations and a hold space for, could you
disagree with one thing about this person, but then agree with something else about them?
Wow. What a thing. On that note, Tim, we have a pretty, you know, we're pretty big fans of,
you know, Diana Ravich, right? All time faves. But I remember, you know, being skeptical too.
Hey, you were part of the federal administration that put us in the mess.
Now you're on our team like, what's going on? You know, when I was quite young, so it's like,
I think Tim, as we age, we get better at holding space for multiple events and people's lives.
But absolutely would kind of make that the core of my lesson. Like, how is this an invitation
to learn about the work and the impact of someone's, you know, service and work to their country?
Talking about the opportunity to go from just being up on the lectern, teaching down
to the students about something controversial, I like what you're saying, Johnny, about taking
it as an opportunity as an educator to also be educated yourself, being open to learning more
information, being open to that process and going from delivering information to having a process
together with the class. We are going to learn about this figure. You're going to find information,
I'm going to present you with information and together, we're going to suss this out. See,
what do we think about this? I think that's an interesting way of going about things and I think
it can be helpful. Tim, how do you feel about that method of kind of saying, you know, hey,
this is a controversial subject. I'm sure we've all got some thoughts on this. Let's talk it out.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's exactly, again, that's good teaching right there is said, you know,
again, and it's not to advocate neutrality either by doing that. Actually, you're advocating
critical thinking, putting forward, you know, weighing evidence, making decisions, holding to a
position and, you know, maybe even a position with convictions behind a certain realm of evidence.
You know, again, all of this sounds, you know, really exciting and just reminds me, you know,
of good teaching and I don't know, you know, hopefully I'm not going to ruin one of your questions,
but yes, I mean, where we're at today, though, too, is to recognize that there is no such thing as
teaching critical thought and critical thinking about figures because we now we, and on the
way, but you know, there's a current sense of the world right now that says there are a group of
people that we will only talk incredibly positively about or don't talk about them at all.
And then there's also quite a substantial list of created new villains that if we do talk
about them, we'd better be talking about them critically and critically only.
And boy, what a what a what a sad thing because think about our show right now we end every show
with a moment of zin and that's not a pitch for zin nicotine pouches. That's Howard zin.
Even though, you know, we know our Johnny Lupinacci is a fan of both.
I'm giving free advertising now, but you know, looking at, but you know, Howard zin. I think he's
another example. I know we're talking about Dick Cheney, controversial. Yes, but
today, if you talked about him positively, you and tried to teach any of the potential positive
attributes of what it took to write an alternative history, you could be labeled now as promoting
unamericanism because if you hear about the way Howard zin is framed specifically by
President Trump, I mean, this is an anti-war radical Marxist terrorist who hates America.
And what does that do when we've kind of said we know who the heroes are, we know who the villains
are and therefore now you have to teach. And when the reality of quote hero, quote villain and
and again, Johnny points out, you know, what about people who transition into a place of going from
one thing to another? You know, what a well, that's a flip flop or we're not teaching about them either.
Well, Johnny, I mean, Tim, and I just would urge this to keep saying that you're never one
or the other, any single one of us. Right. It's about your actions every day and what you do and
like the compilation of those. And you know, whether you know, putting someone on a pedestal as a hero
or putting someone on, you know, off the pedestal or down on the floor as a villain, you know, these
these kind of pigeonhole us into, you know, patterns of misleading stories and all kinds of stuff.
So I mean, I urge us gather information, gather multiple perspectives. And like you said, Tim,
before, you know, opportunity to think critically or practice our critical thinking, you know, about
time and interestingly to enough site, like, you know, I was remembering because I'm trying to
think this was Jacob kind of caught us a little bit today. Now I'm the anxious guy. But I was,
I was thinking about this, you know, because Dick Cheney did speak out against the Trump
administration. He's not a big fan of like, you know, the current presidential administration,
especially in those, you know, you know, elections and stuff that were happening. But it's almost like
to now I'm remembering like, he's, he's, he's a big reason. There's so much executive power in
government. Right. This is like, this is like, you know, I mean, like, it's hard to avoid the jokes
because I grew up right with, with every week, there being a Dick Cheney joke on SNL. But it's
and this is, this is maybe subconsciously related. But it's almost like when I eat too much for dinner
and then I can plain about having a stomachache, like, you know, this stomachache and I said, you
know, this is bad food that I ate and whatever I blame, everything. So not, you know, poking fun at
somebody whose past and you know, never celebrating the loss of anyone who's put hard work into
things, right? And we can certainly acknowledge that. And I think it's done some pretty amazing
things too, as well as some equally, maybe even, you know, more tremendous harmful things. That's
my thoughts and opinions over the years. But, but, but I like to think about that there's plenty of
both in all of us. And so again, opportunity to invite students to think critically and no matter,
especially if it's outside of your comfort zone, like, you know, well, maybe this is a hero or a villain
in your household, right? Still gather information, process it, talk with others about it, study it,
that word there, study it, not be told what to think about it, study it, right? And, you know,
come up with conclusions that may not be, you know, fixed and forever. All of our conclusions that
we come up with need to be dynamic. That might change as I experience more in my life or as I
gather more information. So, you know, more critical thinking. There you go. I think that perspective
of trying to always be open and open to learning more about these figures and trying to have an
open mind when approaching it is useful. I'm wondering, and this is for both of you, maybe we can
have a nice open round table discussion. Can you recall a time where you were researching a figure
you were going to teach and had your mind changed about that figure through learning about it in
order to be a better teacher? And I'm hoping take your time, nobody blurt out pole pot or something,
okay? Because I don't want that. I mean, something okay. Guys, all right, calm down.
If you change your mind on George Washington Carver and realize this is pretty cool, that's okay.
We can talk about that. I mean, this is common for every teacher listening, probably just had
about 10 people popping in their mind. Yeah, especially social studies teachers and history
teachers because, you know, it's a pretty regular like we learn more about, you know, things in
the past that are not acceptable today and we're not condoning it. So, when I teach about Jeffersonian
democracy, you know, I have to also remind like my students, hey, let's hold space for a guy who
had some really great ideas, but also had some pretty terrible, you know, beliefs and practices.
And this is not a free pass on like saying like because he had some great ideas about democracy,
you know, then, you know, let's just ignore the slavery stuff and all the, you know, so anytime we're
talking about, you know, historical figures, I think this comes up and it most certainly Jacob
through that kind of teaching is how I learned more about that with many more figures than I
imagined. To make it less, you know, political, you know, this was, you know, for the era I was
both the student and then teaching. And I think it still is. I mean, Michael Jordan was iconic and
was super important for a lot of, you know, young people, basketball player, all kinds of different
things. And, you know, there would be lots of chosen biography reports on him and I would learn a
lot of stuff again, not saying like Michael Jordan's a bad guy or a good guy, but it just, you know,
you learn about the complicated ways that people's lives take them or the ways that, you know,
they make decisions in their life. And I think that's always a beautiful thing for students to learn
about and we get to co-learn with our students about that stuff, you know, like, I think it's the
the way, you know, not to sound too much like a Sith myself, but like, you know, like, maybe that's
the Jedi way, right? Like to think the only Sith's thinking absolutes. So I, I was going to say,
I don't know that I've ever gone like, wow, they were so awesome until I found out or wow,
they were so horrible and then I found out it was more like Johnny would say it was more of an
additive to going, wow, how much more rich this, this life is. And that's what students should know
and I'll give a, you know, really great, to me example, there was a book came out in 1994,
loved it, great book, lies my teacher told me. Oh, yeah, you know, great. And again, right now it's
one of the books you're not allowed to teach anymore. But in it, he kind of points out the fact
and calls it this idea of what we call heroification, which is to take, you know, a figure kind of
whitewash them out, turn them into like a pristine, you know, Greek statue. And therefore then
never really seeing the humanity. And then these people are never able to even be looked at
as something you could ever possibly be like them. And so it didn't work. So he goes on to
to point out a more in-depth story. So Helen Keller, right? Helen Keller always brought up and
boy, she was the deaf thumb and blind girl didn't have pinball, but, um,
you know, Tommy, not at that time, but, but, um, and all of a sudden, her teacher helped her learn
to communicate and the end of the story, right? That's the Helen Keller story, except, except it's
not. It's like that story is almost not that it's inconsequential because it's amazing,
but it's then what she did with that ability to once that that connection of being able to
communicate and put forward a lifelong women's rights suffragist activist. None of that is taught
to kids because we only teach this kind of very short kind of like Helen Keller, the blind
girl, the deaf girl, who all of a sudden overcame her, you know, limitations or disabilities
for everyone and go, that's actually not the cool part of the story. It's the most sanitized
version of the story. Right. It takes out the interesting gritty parts of a person's life.
Right. And, and, and, you know, and now, because we add that depth to her, now all of a sudden,
you can start to have interesting questions. Why didn't you know this about her? Why didn't I
know that about her? Yeah. Until 1994, when I finally read Lies, my teacher told me,
and I was a social studies teacher going on for my PhD in teaching American history,
and it was finding books. So, I mean, yeah, when we talk about teaching figures, so you come back
to Dick Cheney. And again, what is a totality of life? Yeah, Johnny points out, you know,
the expansion of the executive powers, holy crap, did he know that they would be
excessively even stretched more so than he ever imagined, or should you be able to look back and
go, he should have known, he should have known he was setting this up. Or do you go, no, at the time,
he thought that the kind of polite Washington kind of institutional boundaries or, you know,
were just things that were going to be respected. And he had no sense of an outward disrespect
for democracy, diplomacy, for even just culture. And so, I mean, you know, interesting
person, very resolute. And here's the one thing that loved fly fishing for trout. He got to give
him a props on that. Yeah, generally, Cheney super awesome guy. We're all agreed.
But even he was wrong sometimes. And that's the lesson, you know, even even people that we like
can be wrong on things. And I have one last real question of the night for you to find
fellows here with me. Last question, you know, young people oftentimes are given to thinking
things are awesome or terrible. And when you teach things, you can teach them like, hey, it turns
out SpongeBob was also an alcoholic. Now they hate SpongeBob instead of thinking he was awesome.
So here's what I want to ask you, how do you teach that nuance and have students come away not
changing their mind? Oh, okay, this figure was actually terrible. How do you get them to understand
that nuanced aspect of life? Oh, I think on that one is this actually now too, is to kind of come
in front loading that nuance is what we're actually kind of teaching here, because I can,
I'll say from experience that assuming potentially teaching something powerful or teaching
something controversial might add depth, it can turn into a pretty strong judgmental
after effect by students. And you know, I saw that 100% when I used Howard Zins,
his, you know, people's history of the United States, where students really became, and it wasn't
that they were like anti-American, but they, it just turned them into cynics. And that was never
the goal when you're thinking about critical thinking and trying to give, you know, alternative
points of view. And so I would now today, I would have front loaded this by saying, you know, we're
going to read and look at something that might challenge what you assumed you already knew. And
when we find that challenge, let's deal with how we're going to make sense of it. I love that,
Tim, you know, start off with, you know, tell them the mission statement. Don't surprise them
with the, with the nuance. Say, hey, we're going to talk about some figures. We're going to talk
about some history. And yeah, some of it's going to be this, some of it's going to be that
we're going to come together and we're going to learn it. I like that. Johnny, what do you think?
How are you feeling about that? Because I know you want to get that message across. You don't want
to be misunderstood. How do you make sure you are understood? I'm still stuck on SpongeBob
being an officer. I mean, I that my brain went to mush when you say, I don't even remember the
question. I'm still like, I'm thinking and I'm like, wait, is he?
I, well, if anybody was, it was Mr. Krabby.
I don't want to smirk any of these people. Okay, Mr. Krab's SpongeBob. I don't know any
inside information on on these Mr. Krab. He's a pillar of the community, a great business man.
I've got no no accusations. The Krabby Patties. Oh, man. No, I think it's great. I do honestly
wholeheartedly forget the question. I can repeat the question. I'm the host. You need
to repeat. Please repeat the question for me and let's remove the SpongeBob stuff. Yes.
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have used metaphors or sarcasm. I know that's a big stumbling block.
I hope you can forgive me. Forgiven young people, they hear things. They think it's either
awesome or it's terrible. Oh, that's right. How do you make sure that when you're teaching a
nuance subject that the people listening to you aren't just going to take it as hearing the
nuance and saying, Oh, okay, he's bad. Yeah. I think, man, that's a tough one because
I think, well, I guess this generation is going to get really good at this, Jacob, because
we're coming out. I don't know if we're coming out of it. It's just things are more nuanced
for young people because they have to be because cancel culture on all sides of things is so
prevalent and familiar in their lives. And also, I think a big contributor to the increase
of anxiety and the different kinds of statistics we read about your students being less likely to
share openly in class and different things is when I ask students why or what their thoughts are
about stuff and why they have apprehension to sharing or sitting in the massive complications
sometimes. They talk about the social cost of it. And that's very real. I know a lot of us will
say, we have to mature and grow out of that. And I kind of hope more of our peers do, but it doesn't
appear to be that way with social media these days. Like what people think of us matters to us.
And that's by and large, always been the case and will always be the case. And I don't think
is a signifier of immaturity unless it takes over, right? And like it becomes the only thing you think
about can be a problem. But a lot of young, like there's a high social cost. It's a big risk,
to think differently or to be even worse as my students will tell me all the time,
undecided, like kind of like truly like I see both sides because now you have nobody
right? And when this is the kind of danger of a highly polarized to party or what we've
referred to on this show, I don't know if any other places in media are calling it this, but
a culture war. You know, so guys, did you see me use the side?
Right. I saw it. Yeah, I know it was impressive, but but the polarization of things has its
impact. So Jacob, I think young people are getting better at this because they're experiencing
that way to minute. The gray areas where everything is, it sucks that it's coming to head in such
like intense ways where like, you know, I mean, I disagree with a ton of the work and the decisions
that former vice president Dick Cheney made, but I'm equally appalled by people who are just like
dragging them unnecessarily like we have the critique, we know the critique, it's not hidden,
you could tastefully remember like remember the bad with the good or even if you feel like there's
no good, there's no need to like dance on the losses of others. I mean, that's just to me, bad
character. You know, so we're in these times where I hope young people or I guess you don't have
to be any age, but certainly young young people get to get to kind of have these experience and say,
I don't like the way that tastes, right? I don't like the way that that plays out. Let's hold space
for being, you know, in the middle, not not politically in the middle, but like undecided, I like certain
things about this and I hate certain things about this other part of it. And so that's my answer,
Jacob, as I think you remind students it's okay to be in that space. We all really are,
but group think kind of pulls us. What do you really think? Let's make sure our classroom is
a space where we can agree, disagree, and not even that phrase agree to disagree. Just flat out,
it's okay for us to disagree. That's not necessarily an agreement. That's just a, that's just a
sign that we're thinking critically about stuff, right? So what do we then propose? How are we
generative? Because Tim talked about that cynicism, right? I always say to negate, you got to create
to oppose, you better propose, right? And I say it with that enthusiasm in the classroom,
right? So my students are probably shaking their heads because they listen, you know, and I'm always
say extra credit if you listen to the best of pencils, you forced pencil busters, but I'm, uh,
but I say like if you're going to negate, you better create, right? If you're going to oppose,
you best propose. So that keeps that generative responsibility as part of, I don't like this,
but what I think we're getting at here, always get to that point where together we make something of
it. And Jacob, that's where I'm at. And I'd be lying if I say I'm not going to immediately after
the show, Google about SpongeBob because I tried to and a quick one during the show and didn't get
any hits. So I'm guilty of that. Uh, I'm going to, I'm going to solve this one because I only held
space for SpongeBob to be awesome. And now I find out that Jacob tells me he's maybe not a bad guy
because I mean, lots of people struggle with alcoholism, but certainly it's a different character
than I had ever imagined. And now I'm sad for SpongeBob. So I got to figure this out because I never,
I mean, does he have, does he have good community? He does. All right. This is not an episode.
Yeah. Yeah. Moving on to SpongeBob. Let's get back to Jacob. How come you haven't asked us,
if you've ever been shot on a hunting trip or not, or our favorite story of being shot by one of our
friends, you know, out in the woods. That's next week's show, guys. Come on. Let's not, let's not
get ahead of things. But Dr. Johnny Lupinati, Dr. Tim Slecker, you guys have been fantastic.
The best guests who have ever been on their own show. I have to say, I mean, you guys have been
fantastic and super controversial on today's episode of The Producer's Choice Show. Final
question for me is, did you see the movie Vice about Dick Cheney? Love dead. How about you, Johnny?
You know what? I don't question bail. Is that the who Christian bail? Oh, yeah, I did see that
years and years ago. Oh, we might have to rewatch that. I saw it on Christmas day when it came out
and really what better way to spend Christmas than watching a movie about Dick Cheney?
Nothing says holidays like Dick Cheney. Yep. And so tune in next week for our retrospective
on the movie Vice and what we learned from that movie. And yeah, I'm excited. I'm going to rewatch
and we're going to come back. You guys see me doing you see me doing on Dr. Cheney? See that?
Yeah, that's pretty good. Oh, that's how he talked right there. Yeah.
All right. Now this is the thing we do. Let's go. Let's go. What's Tim, Dr. Tim Slecker? What's
your favorite movie about a controversial historical figure? Because I brought up one and now it's
your turn. My favorite movie about a controversial historical figure. I guess you could really
pick any historical figure, right? They're all controversial. Yeah. Well, I think so.
I saw one of these ones. It was either on Netflix or Prime, but there was a series of biographies
and it was a biography, a dramatization on the life of Einstein. And I, you know, it really
captured the complexity of his humanness and some of his frailties and misgivings and things
that maybe. And yet you still kind of came out of the show without a going, I hate that guy now.
It was like, wow, he wasn't just brilliant. But the part at the end where you find out he was
learning all this because he wanted to blow up the earth, that really disappointed me. I think
Einstein shouldn't have done that. Yeah. He's, oh, geez. Now Johnny's not going to get that Jacob.
I'm sorry. Johnny, that was a joke. You don't have to look that up. I was just kidding. Einstein
is still pretty cool. What's your favorite movie about a controversial historical figure?
Well, well, I have two. One just found out it's controversial. It's called The Search for the square
pants. So SpongeBob movie search for the square pants. That's probably it. No, really,
this is a recency bias because I like what Jacob said, especially in the theme of this show,
like any historical figure could be considered controversial depending on who you are. And
certainly probably some of my most favorite biopics. I mean, I love a good biopic. Some of my
most favorite biopics. Other folks might consider controversial and consider them like,
you know, hero stories. So I'll save all of those for another time. But Oppenheimer,
recency bias for sure. But Oppenheimer, what a film man. And what a, like, what a,
like interesting character, you know, Oppenheimer. So if you haven't seen that one,
it's recency, recency bias in my head is like, you know, we all know famous for, you know,
the atomic bomb stuff, which is pretty much, you know, if there's such thing as hero,
hero or villain, and you got to pick, you know, you know, architect and main man on the A-bomb,
Oppenheimer. So you get like, okay, so Oppenheimer, that film, wow, what a, what a,
what a film about a controversial figure. It didn't really change much, but certainly showed like
nuance and depth. And a great one. So that one and search for the square pants.
Tim, can you get your cat to purr into the mic? I see you're holding a cat now.
Johnny, Johnny per. Did you get that? Well, hey,
and in case any of the listeners had any doubts, Tim and Johnny want you to know they're very
smart and they watch movies that have Einstein in them. So there you go. That's true.
True. True. Yeah, that's the theme. That's the takeaway. That's the takeaway. And now
for a man with a cat, it's time for your moment of sin.
In war, good guys always become bad guys.
Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of producer's choice. And remember, you can grab great
podcasts filled with more busted pencils content on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or of course,
on the civic media website or at busted pencils.com. So don't you dare even think about being late
for home room on Monday. And be sure to grab next week's class in session on Wednesday.
And you know, you're going to see us back on the downloads for Friday's producer's choice,
but if you want to, and I know you want to listen to busted pencils broadcast at 3 p.m.
central time every Saturday across all the civic media network stations for one hour of your
favorite blue collar scholars, Tim and Johnny. And keep busting pencils.
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