Hey, it's Saturday.
Welcome to Busted Pencils Fully.
Let it education talk.
Educated educators talking education.
Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, Jacob, chair of the board and me, Dr. Tim Slecker.
We're in the house.
Man, so much to talk about, but I always like to kind of share with you guys that, you know, every Thursday morning at 6.30 a.m., I get to go live with John and Gordy.
you know and and you know just get to talk but it's it's it's it's kind of funny because they're always like ah Tim Slucker from busted pencils and he's one of those educated education people that well Tim what is it you guys educated educators talking education like yeah that that's so cool like
How do you forget educated educators talking education?
I love your
catchphrase.
What is it again?
It's super catchy.
I can't remember it
though.
I go to bed every night with it stuck in my head except it's only partially stuck.
It's half, it's halfway stuck there.
All
right, man.
Well, but, but, but, but every time they do that, and it's been like three weeks in a row now, they always follow it up with that's so good.
That's just so good.
Jacob.
Yeah.
I'm kind of like, is, is it or are you guys like, if it's, I think it's really good.
I know Johnny thinks it's really good.
Yeah.
But, but I like things that make sense.
Yeah.
Educated educators talking education.
Yeah.
We
have PhDs in education and, and we're educators that
would
make us the most at the highest level educated educators talking education.
And as we get older, Tim, we can throw another E on there.
Experienced educated educators talking education or
just
talking experiences.
The more we
age and just tell stories.
But also Tim, it's morning.
It's Thursday morning.
It's early.
Is that seven thirty or six thirty your time?
No, it's six six thirty in the civic media listening area.
It's seven thirty for me.
You know, but yeah, maybe maybe they haven't had that for thirty
a.m.
for me.
Why?
Why I'm I've opted out of that lovely invitation.
John and Gordy sent our way, but I love that you're with them.
Well, it, it, it is, it's a good time.
It's fun.
And we get that, you know, get to share a lot about what's going on in the show.
And I actually appreciate those guys all the time.
Likewise,
inviting, best breakfast I ever had in Madison and best breakfast company I've ever had.
And Madison, Tim, we got to have, we, we've done the breakfast show with them.
Yeah, we did.
Yeah, what a fun thing down at the diner.
You know,
got a stack of flapjacks and eggs
over medium with sausage and oh, you know, talking there and I had that, you know, the kind of semi cooked egg yolk running down my goatee.
Man, that is truly talk radio right there.
Jacob, you're imagining a gun.
I wish I was there.
Yeah, I wish I was there to watch egg yolk drip off of Tim.
That's, that's the mental image that I really needed today, Tim.
So thank you very much.
You've brought it home to me with you.
I mean, you should write books.
The educated egg man.
Oh man.
All of a sudden flashes to the Beatles.
I am the egg man.
Okay.
That's right.
There you go.
The walrus, I don't under, I've never understood the connection between the egg man and the walrus.
I'll just point that out.
Somewhere in the gukukachu.
Okay, way, way, way off track.
But yes, it is our Saturday show.
And for all the civic media listeners right now listening to the show in on the radio.
in the hot tub with your portable, uh, sound device.
So
many teachers out there with full hot tubs on a Saturdays, you know, so many educators
on
the weekends
or, or, you know, the channel surfers like, what is this?
Stop right there.
Right there.
I know you're surfing.
You hear us.
You're going to want to listen to the rest of the show, but actually, yeah, thank you.
all of the civic media people who are actually listening to the show at three o'clock and you know in your car or at home we appreciate all the time that you commit
to spending some time with some educated educators who talk education.
And for all of you downloaders, we love you just as much too.
You know, I just always want to point that out and say thank you to everybody who listens to the educated educators who talk education.
You know, hey, thinking about that, it's okay to let people know, first of all, about the show.
And it's also okay, you know, to sign into Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
Leave us a comment.
Let us know what's happening.
Let us know, you know, what you're thinking about.
Let us know how horrible we make you feel if that's what happens.
We want to know.
Jacob, I got a little grin out of you on that one.
Tim, I think a lot of people out there have been thinking about
following us and subscribing and doing all these things and spreading the word.
And they just thought, ah, but Tim probably wouldn't want me to do that.
So I'm glad you're finally putting the word out there that yes, we do approve of engaging with the show.
We
improve of that.
And you know what?
And for anybody who's cynical, but I want to do it right now.
Well, hey, 608-557-8577 is always available.
608-557-8577, voicemail and no sensor required in the voicemail.
Or you can also use that number to text and, you know, love to hear from you and always.
Why aren't you guys talking about, hey,
The reason we're not talking about it is because you didn't say, why aren't you guys talking about X because it will not X or Twitter, but all that, but just give us everything.
Okay, look, you know, we, there's been so much going on in education.
Johnny, I just don't want to talk about X Twitter, all that stuff.
I, you're gonna,
but you're gonna quickly pivot to AI watch.
You know, because well, it's just moving in that direction.
And yes, okay.
As Johnny has pointed out, I worship.
Actually,
the last
time we listened, I've been elevated to a practitioner, a Monsignor, a minister, whatever, you know, fits you.
I'm now that person in the Church of AI.
And I guess I am, but I, you know, I came across
Actually, I didn't come across the post.
It was sent to me by a faculty member at the institution I'm at and contextualized this.
I have been organizing a group of faculty across multiple disciplines to have a discussion about how this institution should be
implementing and or teaching about AI.
AI in higher education for people going, well, yes, I am an administrator at a higher education institution.
And talking about AI, what should we be doing?
I will point this out, too, if you're going, well, why?
Well, the beginning of the semester, actually in the summer, OpenAI, ChatGPT and ASU, Arizona State University announced the first ever
kind of like marriage, chat GPT, ASU, totally embedded with each other.
That means all faculty, all staff, all students have full access to powerful chat GPT and all kinds of other things.
That's been happening.
Google has partnerships.
But yesterday also, Anthropic got in the deal with
Pitt University and Anthropic have entered into the same type of deal that OpenAI and ASU is, where Claude now will be accessible to any faculty, staff, or student who's enrolled at Pitt, has now access to Claude.
That's Anthropics.
And what are the implications of this?
And one of the things that...
we've been talking about in my institution is going like, what should we be doing?
What's the responsibility of a higher education institution, a college, you name it, when it comes to AI?
Should we be teaching it?
Should we be having conversations about how it is the scourge of modern writing faculty?
And I think that throughout all those conversations,
The group that I have again is very varied about where they're at, but one of those faculty members sent me, not the group right away, just sent me because I think he was afraid to send it as a group message, but a piece that framed what if everything we're doing in higher education because of AI is actually
we're just kind of staring at the end of traditional higher education.
And when I mean that, a four year degree, right?
Okay, I know there are all kinds of ways, adult learners and stuff, but the traditional four year degree kind of residential experience, why would anybody pay?
any institution of higher education, the tuition that goes with a four-year degree, and this author pointed out, so let's call it a four-minute mile, when AI could probably deliver the learning more effectively in a two-minute mile,
translate that to two years.
So understanding that this is kind of the premise put forward.
As a parent, my son or daughter is about to enroll in University B at $29,000 a year over the course of four years when AI
could teach them more effectively in probably two years.
Why would anybody pay the amount of money for a four-minute mile?
And I know where you're gonna go, Johnny, but if the four-minute mile is really actually a two-minute mile now.
I know we're cutting in a lot, so I'll give you a little bit of time, Johnny, to comment before we head into the break.
You,
yes.
Oh, yeah.
Well, Tim, you laid a lot out there.
And I think it's interesting stuff.
I like the, I love hearing about the work that you and other educated educators are doing to examine the big changes, not only in higher ed, but in learning and what we know.
And in changing the structures of schooling, because what we know isn't always been what we.
do as educators, but I'll come back after the break and really dive into this.
I got questions about if you can, if anybody can even really run a two minute mile, has it been done?
Or are we just trying to cram more into less time, make it sexy, package it and say, this is the newer, better, bad way to do this work.
Come do it with us.
Everything's changed.
Get the most bang for your buck.
We'll come back and dive into that when we come back, busted pencils.
Oh, you're Johnny.
I'm
sorry, man.
I'm gonna go
quick because I know where you're going.
Hey, it's Tim Johnny Jacob Busted Pencils Fully Let It Education Talk.
AI, can it help the two-minute mile?
Actually, we're referring to a substack post by Hollis Robbins, the two-minute mile problem where, hey, AI can help us.
run a two minute mile.
In other words, shorten the time it takes for a four year degree.
Johnny Lupinacchi, you got a problem with this.
I got a lot of them, but I also really like I think where this article provocatively takes us.
And I'll come back around to saying like, I'm, I'm excited to hear about, you know, faculty, anywhere educators, whether you're, you know, K12 teachers out there working in your districts or whether you're part of
higher education institution like Tim's talking about his faculty and he we're working on this today.
I think it's a important and necessary and extremely timely and long overdue conversation to be having.
Um, but again, Tim, you know me, I love a good metaphor and I hate a bad one.
And I'm
not
sure whether or not this is a good metaphor or it is.
And it's really, and I'm going to say why I have problems with it.
First of all,
No human being can run a two minute mile, at least it hasn't been recorded as such.
So the idea of what came to mind in the hook in the sort of, I love how this article talks about the last mile and the amount of discernment in kind of, you know, human thoughtfulness that's part of the last mile or like when we're finalizing a decision or in the context of mapping it onto higher education, sort of culminating your learning.
you are going out into, you know, your careers with like for a lack of better terms, a capstone experience where you have been learning things, but also applying them and mentored into, you know, what this person shares as the last mile being extremely valuable and has said over time that evidence has shown that mentorship and close kind of relationships.
especially related to professional pathways, like career, kind of apprenticeships and things as part of that last mile have been shown to be not only incredibly effective, but important.
So, you know, when we enter for it to kind of speed that up for listeners when, when researchers interview people who are incredibly successful in their careers, and they talk about their journey to that success.
And
they share powerful moments of their own learning, the mistakes they made, the things that they found incredibly helpful to their profession.
They talk about, you know, how important mentorship was.
They talk about, you know, teachers that they have that really took the time to not only teach them content, right?
To not only teach them the facts, say if you're an engineer out there listening, not just the calculus teacher or the computer programmer who helped you through things,
but that teacher who really built a connection and a relationship or that early career mentorship you got in your profession, right?
That really carried you into that next level,
right?
That
helped you take that big step up into being highly effective, feeling proficient in your career pathways.
You know, that's the ultimate goal.
Tim, so when that's the last mile.
Then, then the piece you share with me talks about, but kids these days are coming in.
And I think this is a provocative and important conversation.
Cause the author may be right on this.
Kids
are coming in prepared for the two minute mile, which if, if the intention is to like hint there, Hey, two minute miles aren't possible.
Then I love this article because it said it's saying we're setting ourselves up to fail.
If the goal is.
to do things faster and supposedly more efficient, well, at what cost, right?
Because if we're preparing or we're getting together to talk about how to brace ourselves for the expectation of the two-minute mile and we cave to providing two-minute mile style training or education, well, then we're all duped into thinking it's humanly possible to run the two-minute mile.
So I don't think the article is about speed, but the metaphor is, but there's also an argument that's often made about AI is that it speeds things up.
And you can only speed things up until you're limited by the humanness that we're all functioning in.
In terms like just recently this week, we had a major shutdown of a lot of education programs, a lot of university campuses.
Right.
We didn't have big snowstorm.
We didn't have a natural disaster.
We had Amazon web services went out for a few hours.
Somebody tripped on the cord and now came to the plug.
Well, a little bit more complicated, but in essence, Tim, you're right.
Like that's the new snow day.
I mean, things came to a halt and, you know, so we can't get on the learning management system.
We can't utilize our tools.
We can't get the plugins correct for these.
So, um, you know, our technological dependencies.
mislead us into things like believing we could run a two minute mile.
You can't at least the last I checked and I could be wrong.
Hopefully Jacob fact checks me and says, Johnny, completely wrong in this, but to my knowledge, no one's run a two minute mile.
I remember all of us.
You remember learning about the four minute mile and that was a huge accomplishment.
And, and fabulous runners have done that since, but I appreciate you recognizing that.
That's an
impossibility.
Right.
So I love this talk about, are we talking about efficiency?
Are we talking about speeding things up?
Are we talking about a generation that's being prepped for something that is impossible?
Maybe all of it, but what I'm most excited about, Tim, and when we come back from the break, we're going to hear about it is we are rethinking things and we're long overdue for that because boy, I'll tell you.
We've known too much and not done things with what we've known for too long.
So listeners, it's Saturday.
We got heavy in here.
Busted pencils, educated educators talking education.
When we get back, stick with us.
we come back.
It's busted pencils fully leaded education talk.
Johnny Gordy, it is educated educators talking education.
Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, Jacob chairman of the board made Dr. Tim Slicker.
We are here.
Okay, AI two minute mile four minute mile.
I get it.
bad metaphor.
All right.
Or
maybe great
one.
Okay.
It
could be brilliant.
That's the thing I love about
it.
I want to go back though to where what where I see this and I and I'm I know that you were getting at it too, which is she really points out first of all, forget about AI or not.
I think what she does a lot here is says if we were better teachers,
But
we could we
could do a whole lot more because Johnny, I got to point out that when you said, you know, when I'm when I reach my ultimate success and I look back, I got to say that Dr. Harris, my chemistry teacher is not someone I attribute my successes to.
Tim,
the teacher-hater.
I do not look upon, and boy, this is going to maybe freak people out, but the majority of my history and or sociology and anthropology types of faculty are not people I hold up as going, man, if it wasn't for them, largely I would go, thank God I made it.
out of those places.
And this is just to illustrate where I think the other part is, is that his, you know, teaching his, and we've talked about this with Mike Bigley from, you know, up in CESA 4 that, look, we've known for the longest time that for every year a child or anybody spends in formal education, what we call engagement.
In other words, their interest at being in school declines.
Okay.
Why is that?
Well, I got to say that here, let's make this very simple, because sit and get is a really bad framing for how we teach and learn.
And I know there are exceptions, but for the most part, the model, sit, listen, and get.
is the model of education.
And when you think about that, okay, forget about AI, that's just not good learning.
But now, sitting and getting, even if we say there is an amount of information that is absolutely potentially saying necessary to go forward.
And if it is an accumulation of factual knowledge of things like that,
Why would anybody pay for a bad faculty member to teach a three credit class over 15 weeks when?
Let's just talk about history of the American Revolution.
I right now can jump into chat GPT and I can say, look.
I have a college level need to understand the American Revolution.
Chat, my buddy, I need you to organize a tutoring program that works with me until I have mastered all of the knowledge.
history of the American Revolution.
I could do that on my own time.
I can do that.
And it adjusts to whether I understand.
It makes adjustments.
It changes.
I can tell it, hey, you're boring me and it will make it more interesting.
Why would anybody pay for Dr. So-and-so to drone on for 15 weeks about American history?
Johnny.
Tim, here's the thing.
Tim's got a special side of them this week.
Educated educator, teacher, hater.
No, uh, but Tim, here's some, I'm going to, I'm going to use a couple of metaphors here since that's the theme of the show is wild metaphors.
It's like wild, wild metaphors.
Let's go for them.
Um, you need water, right?
You drink water when you need water.
Got my life straw in my backpack.
Great.
Great, Tim.
Well, there's this way of getting water.
It's not the best way.
It's called waterboarding.
I'm going to get you your water by waterboarding you.
Not great, right?
Your memory of coming to me for water isn't so good.
We can agree on that, but you still need water.
Well, Tim, I'll tell you what, Johnny waterboards to give water, but you could go on a computer and you could Google or you could use some AI.
to talk about, do you need water or not?
It can't give you water.
Okay.
So just because I waterboard to give water doesn't mean one that every teacher shares knowledge how or like water in this metaphor like I do.
So like your example of the bad teacher and your experiences with so many bad teachers, which counter argument to that could be as they were great teachers for someone else, just not for you, but you did connect with somebody.
And that's ultimately the goal of education is that all students find some kind of connection.
And there's a point there.
Hold that one because we got to hit that.
Well, also, also here, like you, life isn't about working with everything that works just for you.
So the life skill you also learned that Mr. Harrison or whoever you called your poor chemistry teachers by like crying in his car right now listening like, but Tim, Tim was such a good chemistry student.
right?
But this idea like how he was not helpful to your career also is helpful to your development and your maturation and your the skills you brought into adulthood of like, hey, everybody doesn't get along the same way.
We still work together and figure out how it goes.
I agree with you that every student deserves to have an awesome teacher.
And I agree with you that this what I mean by this is a conversation I think
long overdue like we've known too much that we're not doing because before AI exploded as speeding things up to the so-called possible two minute mile that hasn't happened humanly yet.
I emphasize the humaneness because all this learning still has a human component to it.
Right.
It's not computers teaching other computers unless it becomes that.
which as a faculty member, I have heard students say, we have faculty who utilize AI to generate assignments for us.
We use AI to do the assignment.
And then they check, they do grading using AI, such as AI trading information, right?
That's ultimately a loss all the way around.
But this idea that, that what we know about active learners, I would argue that anybody just leaning on sit and get, right?
is about 30 years behind on learning research.
And there is a lag, but I would also argue that it is the responsibility of groups of teachers.
So whether those are professors at an institution or whether those are teachers in any high school or any district or school leaders, administrators in higher ed, or principals and superintendents in our districts, it is all of our jobs to say, hey,
There's this thing we need you to learn to do better and it's to teach better all the time great teachers are Constantly improving just like I'll use another metaphor here.
It's wild metaphor day Like if you're a sports fan the game changes and the true greats Change their game with the changes in the game like like right like oh man Wow, they're calling fouls now even closer than they ever called them so it's
extra important for me to be a great free throw shooter.
You can't get away in the NBA without being able to sink your easy buckets, right?
So great players adapt and change with the game and great teachers, which should be the mark for everybody in a classroom, right?
Are constantly adapt and giving new information or not even new, but good.
information.
So I'm here.
I know you're not anti teachers.
No, no, no, because that last
sentiment kind of felt like bad teachers out here delivering an awful product are about to get replaced by machines and the machines are going to do way better.
And in fact, faster.
I think they should be replaced if that's what they're still doing the sit and get.
And and actually, Johnny, what you what you pointed out, though, is is that a great teacher right now would
acknowledge and recognize the importance and in one way the irrelevancy of so much of what we have done in the past particularly on the sit and get model that if you are engaging in sitting and getting right now
that in and in itself is bad teaching, but to level up at this point, Johnny, change your game, as you just said, and acknowledge and recognize that right now, actually, those students need you as that mentor, as that guide, as that coach.
They don't need you droning on about
all of the stuff you know that you want them to know that you know they can get all of the stuff that you know more efficiently probably more effectively by using some form of an AI tool which actually now opens up the game for the game changer of a faculty member to step in and go
Now that we are free from the sit and get lecture, let me give you all of what I got in mentorship.
Let's take a field trip.
Let's dig deep into the things that you're learning while you're doing this independently at your own speed with an AI that can adjust to your skill level to the things that you need to know.
And let's meet back.
at the nature preserve and let's look deeply at deforestation and let's look at how sustainability really comes to life.
Okay, that's what you're talking about.
And so that's where I don't take the two minute mile as, oh my God, I'm not gonna have a job.
I take the two minute mile as going
what an opportunity for faculty, for departments, for colleges, for universities as a whole to be freed from that sense of needing to spend hours and hours and hours of instructional time when actually students and families can now pay actually
for an incredible, engaged, experiential, fully deep experience over four years.
That is something that you could never get when actually the four-year degree.
Think about this now.
What institution is going to take this moment and go, you know why you're paying for a four-minute malware for a four-year degree?
Because when you get to this campus,
We're not talking about extracurriculars in the evening when you have time potentially between classes.
You want to be the president of two wildlife societies that are connected to your major?
That's part of your day because you have time.
We're providing those experiences.
That is where I see the challenge at in this piece and the opportunity.
particularly for institutions that people are questioning the the value questioning the need questioning why why even pay for four years when I could get because you're paying not for 15 weeks of droning on you're paying for four years of an experience you're never going to get anywhere with faculty or hold those mentors those guides who when you look back you will go wow thank you
for those four years of that deep, deep, deep experience.
That's a challenge I see in this, Johnny.
Sign me up for that team.
Sign me up for that, bud.
Busted pencils.
Yeah, we're fully leaded.
We're educated educators talking education.
How we put this together.
Well, you got to come back.
Bust a pencil spooling leaded education talk.
Educated educators.
Talking education, talking bad metaphors, talking about changing the game.
We're actually referring to a substack post that came out last week, the two minute mile problem.
There'll be a link in the show description so you can go to it.
Written by Hollis Robbins.
Is higher ed ready for acceleration?
So much in there.
In fact, Jacob during the break went, well, Jacob, you tell us what, where
did we go wrong?
I think about maybe four minutes into the show, the metaphor got us off track.
And then we had a very fruitful 48 minute talk on the metaphor and its validity.
which was really good.
I thought that that was a good chat about the metaphor and, you know, could Usain Bolt run a mile in two minutes and get a college degree in the process or not?
All that very good.
But if I read the article correctly and I did it at night with my glasses off, so I don't know if I did.
But the main two words I got from the article were cut chow.
OK.
Because if you've seen the Disney Pixar movie Cars in that movie, they talk about how Route 66 became antiquated and not used so much because it fell behind the times when the interstate highways came out there.
I feel like this article saying AI is like the new interstate.
And if we're not ready, we don't adapt our infrastructure.
We're going to end up like radiator springs getting
passed
up by new technology.
that we weren't ready for.
Is that right?
Is that what the article is
really trying to tell us, Tim?
Yes, Jacob.
And, you know, so maybe there's a part two next Saturday to get to this because, yeah, you know, it really is.
And it's, you know, kind of she attacks the whole idea that we attribute time in a seat to learning and also time in a seat to some form of a credentialing.
And if anybody in higher ed knows this, the Carnegie unit, the unit really is a measure of time.
37.5 hours equals three credit hours according to college.
And so then the accumulation of 120 at least Carnegie units, that is proof that you've
earned a credential.
And she's kind of going like, that's just not true.
Maybe it was never true.
But my God, why in the world would we ever be using this system of counting, truly counting time in seat as, you know, evidence of learning?
And why would any parent pay for
time in seats, Carnegie units, when that's a disaster.
So yeah, Jacob, I mean, that was the point.
Johnny's got a reaction though.
Come on,
man.
Again, I love this because it's saying just because things have always been one way doesn't mean that they need to stay that way.
And I love Jacob's comparison, you know, to one of my most favorite franchises in all of all of film, you know, cars is a classic and what a great
you know, metaphor as we're talking wild metaphor about, you know, radiator Springs.
And I think it's a, it's an accurate one.
Uh, higher ed is facing some radiator Springs kinds of conversations right now, but Tim, I'm a big, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
And, you know, that was part of what we look at with that there is a need for time together.
And there is somewhere in there.
You can speed things up, but if you cut back too much,
then you slip into this, like why even do it at all?
Or everyone can just do it on their own.
And, and although that's, that's, that's a wonderful dream to have.
There is, you can't be great at something that you don't put time into.
So, you know, maybe it's not a correct and, you know, met unit of measurement, the Carnegie, you know, unit right now, you know, but
But you know, to break it down for listeners, especially in higher ed, it was always say like one credit hour, right?
You're taking a three credit hour class.
You imagine one credit hour is really three hours of work outside of the one hour that you're in the class.
If it's a one credit hour class, but it's three credit hours.
So it's a basically like three hour class.
Well, that's
you know, three, that's, you know, three times each.
That's at least six to nine hours of work outside of that just being in that class, right?
Because at some point, Tim, you do got to be accountable.
Even, even if I do go down this pathway that I'm not a big, big fan of, but for some learners, it works great of completely autonomous learning with, you know, computer programs and things.
It still tells you a relative amount of time you're going to take to
complete the module or go through it.
It just doesn't hold the next module necessarily for another week in a week.
So we're like 15 weeks of curriculum, you might knock it out in three weeks.
Well, speaking of that with with time, we have no more Carnegie units left in this moment.
So we're running out of time.
Now, it's time and we're going to come back to this for your moment of Zen.
The role of law does not do away with the unequal distribution of wealth and power, but reinforces that inequality with the authority of law.
It allocates wealth and poverty in such complicated and indirect ways as to leave the victims bewildered.
Hey listeners, hopefully we didn't leave you bewildered today.
I know I'm still a little befuddled, but what a show.
Thanks for listening to the busted pencils broadcast today.
And remember, you can grab great podcasts, chock full of more fully leaded education talk on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and of course, the civic media website.
you know, don't miss us this week, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays for our podcast drops and thanks for busting pencils with us.
We are the blue collar scholars, Tim and Johnny.
Keep busting pencils.