You
Hey
Friday busted pencils producers choice. Yeah, we're talking about Jacob. It's me Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr.
Johnny Lupinachi in the mobile office tonight. But hey, that's the way we are here at busted pencils committed
wherever we go
you can count on us
to deliver
the goods and the goods today are
It's all about Jacob making the show all about interviewing us Jacob
Tim I just I think we need to take a moment to acknowledge before we get in to the exciting
producers choice plan that I've created we should acknowledge that we all gave you a very hard time
when you were on the road one time and and I think we should we should apologize because we all know
Sometimes everybody but me doesn't have to be in the office here and things happen
I would like to actually see you produce while driving. Yeah, let's cram the board into my passenger seat
And that would be exciting. Yeah
Well, you know, Jacob, I actually just for a moment. I thought you were going somewhere else when you did that um
We should also take a moment and
To reflect and think back on
An incredible musical career
But uh ace Freely passed away
The original league guitarist for kiss Johnny Lupinachi. Did you know that
Yeah Detroit band. Yeah, I did and
Yeah, a lot of a lot of loss in the music world. We also said
Go buys to D'Angelo right big big musical artists lost to the
To the great world of music this week. So, you know, it's a week of morning
I gotta so you gotta ask though this one because Halloween's coming up. Okay
Uh, which member of kiss did you dress up as for Halloween in the days gone by
Johnny Lupinachi
Oh, I don't think I've ever dressed up as a member from kiss, but this is a great idea
Yeah, I'm I'm trying to remember it would have it would have been a great group costume
I would have I would have begged for Gene Simmons and probably ended up with Peter Chris. I was gonna say I Jacob
What I would assume Johnny Lupinachi would have picked Gene Simmons. Okay Jacob. I know it's still your show, but
your past
Kiss costume yeah, well as somebody born in the late 90s. I'm obviously a huge kiss fan
And I've dressed up as members of kiss all the time
And Tim I haven't actually done that, but if I did
I would dress up as the rare 1980s make-up bliss
Kiss outfit that no one liked and no one remembers
Kiss unmasked well actually, too. They'll bring this up
When I did do that um, I was ace freely
The spaceman he at that time he was my favorite and uh when they released the solo albums
uh
Back back in the New York groove one of my favorite songs ever right there. All right Jacob back to you
Thank you Tim two things I have to say one this show we get so few questions done because it takes so long
We're five minutes in zero questions
We're before the questions have started. We've patted the show and secondly Tim
You did you go as a group when you became ace freely or did you just say you know what?
I don't want to be the frontman
I'm gonna dress up as Joey fatone
I'm not gonna be Justin. I just want to be one of the other guys
Well, you know what um, I think that I was probably one of maybe four or five different ace
Freelies of my friends and some of them were gene Simmons because
Actually, Jacob growing up and in the 70s
um
You know elementary school kids we were fascinated by kiss and uh
Every Halloween it was you can count on one of us um being one of the members of kiss. So um never did we go
Intentionally as a group, but we were always
Representing kiss
1976
um
I remember it well third grade
Ricky Higgins introduced me to kiss alive the first double album. I had never seen such a thing and
Look at me now
Well, that covers my first question
So I won't even I won't even do it leave covered it here
Johnny said kiss
That's a great group costume idea and Tim your group all went as Peter
Chris in a group that had so many selections. Let's do the producer's choice show for two two producer. I think I'm
Let's go chairman of the board
You and I will have two choices
Chairman of the board Jacob. Oh, Jake chairman of the board
I've got the board is spelled B-O-R-E-D
We choose to go to the moon
Life's tough choices in
You chose
warning
Howdy fellas how you doing tonight?
I'm out of my morning phase Jacob
That was quick you got over the the loss pretty quickly during the uh producer's choice intro
Yeah, guys. We've got a special topic here and I think there's no better way to introduce it
Then simply to play this short clip
That's right folks welcome back to another exciting episode of the producer's choice show
I am your host producer Jacob and this week I'm joined by two educated educators who do in fact despite the rumors
Know how to read
Dr. Tim Slecker Dr. Johnny Lupinachi. Thank you both for being here
I love when you guys come on your own show. I think it's a special privilege to have you here
Oh, thank you Jacob for having us
This week awesome. I need you guys here because we're talking about a very important subject and that's reading and we're addressing this question here
Is our children reading good
That's today's topic now. This is kind of a follow up from last week where I introduce the topic of
using
Reading proficiency as a metric for judging teachers and superintendents
Which all stemmed from a a graph that my cousin sent to me
Shelling the highest paid superintendents in Illinois next to what look like very dismal reading proficiency numbers
My first question to start this off
Does this term reading proficiency mean what it looks like to me as a layman or is this a complicated term?
What is this metric that people use i'm going to start with you dr. Tim
And Jacob great great question um in fact, Johnny and I have um tried multiple
Multiple times to help people understand because uh yeah actually the word proficiency
um
communicates. I think um a very much a a different
Sense of what that means as to what it really means when you throw it out there because
My guess Jacob is is that when we hear reading proficiency we
Think that uh some form of you know reading out what you might have imagined grade level
And so when you hear about the horrible rates of proficiency
That must mean a majority of kids in America can't even read at their own grade level
That Jacob is just not true proficiency
Actually is an assigned level of reading according to the nape the national education of assessment progress
The nation's report card proficiency is
Talk to different people it is classified as the highest level of reading ability
Above reading for grade level it is um potentially
You know gifted readers reading as we said way above grade level so when you hear proficiency
thrown into my god, we only have one third of American children reading at proficiency
That's 33% of American kids who are reading way above grade level
That would be the way I would frame that Johnny. What do you think?
Yeah, Tim, I mean you nailed it uh, so to simply answer the question Jacob the
The early part of your question that said you know is this kind of a cooked up, you know more complicated term
It absolutely is
You know to the layman's ear proficient means like what Tim said hey, you know, it sounds like these kids can't read
Or that they're behind in reading when really proficiency is developed and kind of concocted
It's defined in a particular way and as we know we keep saying here on busted pencils
Usually in the news headings as a way to put down students and teachers
Okay, so for me as a layman the the typical average Joe average Jacob you might even say
I see these shocking sounding statistics where you know, it says 110% of kids in Baltimore can't read
And my whoa, that's crazy, but what you're telling me is that this reading proficiency term and correct me if I'm getting this
This wrong, but you're telling me that if we take compare this to something like I don't know
Take you know wood carving
proficiency does not mean adequately. It means basically mastery. Is that
There I like that I like that. Yeah, because um, I can do wood carving
Um, but I wouldn't call my wood carving proficient. Yes
I would call my wood carving proficient
But I can understand that you're a much more modest man than I am
I want to ask further on this this topic. Is it just
That there's a misunderstanding from for the average person over reading proficiency meaning
mastery rather than
adequacy or is there also more factors that go into this being a faulty term?
Are you okay with reading proficiency if people understood what it really is or do you think there's deeper flaws?
I think there's deeper flaws big time. It's a it's a term that is defined
often with some
I'll be I'll be nicely like some some market interest
Because if students are not proficient or at proficiency notice they're not saying at grade level or literate or illiterate
Right they're saying at proficiency and proficiency is redefined
all the time and and
in strong connection with goods and services
That are mandated then to schools and classrooms and communities that are not at proficiency
So a simple way to say it is to say oh, you know a certain percentage of the third graders in a particular area aren't at proficiency
Doesn't mean that they're not reading at third grade level
It means that how proficiency has been defined is that there in needs of some required goods and services that often cost a lot of money
Right to reach improvement and this is where we get into that hole we get into the weeds of the difference between like market
Ideas market ideology doesn't match well with education and I've said this example before if my job is to sell televisions
Right, I'm the I'm part of a management sales team at a local
You know electronic store and the goal is they set us certain target for us to sell a certain number of TVs
And we all work really really hard and we sell everybody we know a new TV
Right, and then our new goals come out for the next quarter and they said Johnny you and your team
You sold so many TVs, right? We're going to
Increase the required number of televisions you sell in the next quarter
Well, now I'm in deep deep trouble because I just sold everybody I know
A TV and I'm there's no way I'm going to reach that
increased expectation
For the next quarter, right? I know it gets more complicated planned up
Celessence and new technology should help me be like but wait you need a new TV because now there are you know
Pictures and pictures and pictures and smarter TVs and all kinds of
Improved graphics. So you need a new one now. Well, yeah, that's all part of it
But that just simply doesn't work when we're talking about well this many third graders were at proficiency
Let's just be nostalgic for a minute and say when third grade reading proficiency was third grade reading level
If that was ever true. Let's romanticize about a past era
Well, great
But now what we're going to do is move that mark teachers because you did such a great job making sure all the third graders
We're reading at third grade level, but proficiency means something different now something more
We've in fact we can squeeze more out of you and more out of those tiny little brains that the learners in your classroom have
So it's a moving mark Jacob and you know, there is no need to pull any punches
It's designed to kind of impose purchasing certain curriculums and supports for schools that are now
not proficient
Right, so those terms are misleading and you are right Jacob to be asking the kinds of questions you're asking
Hmm
Tim why can't you do what Johnny did and compliment my question
Yeah
Did you want to say thank you come on my my my ability to compliment questions
Questioning and questions from the producer. I haven't reached the proficiency level yet. I see. Okay
That that that does make sense to me
Well Jacob has now explained the new level of permit proficiency on busted pencils produces choice
It's flattery to the host of producers choice
So now you know Tim
Now that's a metaphor that hits home with me now. I think I'm understanding it. It's based on me and my standards
And going back to my terrible woodworking metaphor. No idea where that was going
I've come up with a better one Tim. Do you want to hear it? Yes. Okay
So let's say that I
narrowly win my game of maddenon playing and my little brother Jackson blows the other team out
You might think he's better
His standard is working mode and my standard on playing is Hall of Fame mode
So that might be what we're looking at here. I mean maybe that is it's just about the standard being higher
And that's how we're judging and and maybe you know
It's it's not the proper place to actually judge the capacity
It's a standard of being higher higher like like Johnny said we move the goalposts
We do all this thing but but remember
What it is is this is
manipulation of people's emotions
That are and so we use these terms to help create a
sense of doom and dread
Which needs a solution
And typically when somebody yells oh my god
Kids aren't reading proficiently
I can guarantee you that they follow up with
But I know how to fix that fix it
And as long as you buy my product
Yes, as long as you buy my product you know or or or change the way you do schooling or
Certify teachers the way you certify teachers or professionally develop principles
Everybody's got a reason or has got a product a method a something
That they are going to introduce very quickly after proclaiming the sky is falling
and so
Not reading at proficiency levels when somebody frames that as
my gosh
only one third
Of our fourth graders are reading proficiently
It will never be
Yeah, isn't that sad it will be followed up with
Who's responsible what's responsible how can we and darn it if they just did
What I want them to do this would fix the problem
And here's where
Throw a little bit of complexity and why potentially you need educated educators
You talk education and who have looked at the research
actually for every one of those
Skies that have fallen yes, there have been multiple skies that have fallen
particularly
You can track up even further back but
1983 a nation at risk this sky was falling
And guess what when the sky was falling there were remedies proposed and guess what those remedies were implemented
And guess what happened after those remedies were implemented
Oh my goodness the skies falling again. There's a new reading below proficiency problem
And we've got a whole new set of solutions for you rinse repeat rinse repeat
And think thinking about it seems to me that even those with the most good of intentions
Would really not be incentivized to put a message out that says everyone can read just fine
Don't worry about it. I mean if you really care about helping with literacy
You're always going to point I mean with the best of intentions
You would still present it like yeah, there's still things to work on
You don't want to make you look like mission accomplished because there is always ways to improve
Well, in fact Jacob and I don't know if you have more questions
But you and you point this out which is incredibly important because
What ends up happening then in this
You know rage to fix the problem and or then people like me and Johnny going whoa whoa whoa whoa wait
There are kids in fact all kids need really great reading
Instruction great things to read and yes, there are kids who are struggling
And when it comes to struggling readers
You know as much as great curriculum and great teachers matter
This is kind of another one of these statistics
Nothing matters more than
Food shelter
Clothing safety and health care if you want to remedy the reading
um
Unproficiency problem
You would invest all the money
Into just simple even just birth through age three
nutrition medicine
And the number one thing
Giving kids books
Thank you dolly parton the only person doing anything to actually help
Reading
She gives away books because that's another statistic the more books in a house
the more
likely that the kid and the family will not have reading difficulties
And if I could say to him to somebody who might hear what you just said
And and think that by saying that the focus needs to be on these general welfare things
Rather than specifics of methods for teaching or things like that
I think somebody might hear that and say oh, okay, so you're just trying to pretend that the the methods are perfect right now
And I don't think that's exactly what you're trying to say what you're trying to say is that when you look at the effects and the causes
Whatever problems are caused by inefficiencies in the methods
Is dwarfed by the problems caused by problems of welfare is that probably what you're trying to get across here?
That's why you're the producer and host of the show Jacob
Well, and Tim Tim brings up an important point Jacob and I think you just kind of shine light on that
Is that even if we were to say wow this proficiency measure which it's not but let's give it this romantic benefit of the doubt
wow, we've come up with a really great way
To measure this so-called proficiency and we've noticed
That there are a large number of third graders who are not proficient
Well, then Tim's saying that
That exists there are people who are struggling readers and our response is rarely
Been historically in this country at least in most modern times of say the last 30 years
to say well
What about their home life? What about their health? What about their nutrition?
You know that's brought up but often not in association with what we can do in schools to support early learners
And Tim hits the nail on the head. You could be
You could have access to some really great classrooms
And if you're hungry malnourished, right sleepy stressed your nervous system
dysregulated as teacher Halley talked about in this past week's class in session, right?
You're going to not be great or your best at learning and so that it's entirely possible
That an increasing number of young people in this country are experiencing poverty or the adverse effects
Of increased poverty and those are
You know often not discussed in relationship to quote-unquote proficiency
Yeah, because we can't fix poverty Jacob
darn it
What we can fix is buying better
methods and better curriculum because
The investment and people say that and and that also really gets at me because
No actually um
you could
kind of
All the edges of poverty with less than the amount of money and resources that went into
professional development for changing bad teachers for buying better curriculum
um, you know modest health care modest nutrition modest
clothing and shelter
actually
It's not that expensive and in fact there are really good
educated people who have done the math to go um
It's much cheaper actually to provide the early investment
than it is
to provide
A lot of extra money to try to fix
What is a really hard problem to fix
When it has already been kind of sitch you know, it's been saturated
Into the being and so and Johnny talks about it all the time it's like
You know, do we really care because if we really cared
We'd be making investments in things that actually do make a difference
However
That borders on this idea of you know some form of socialism or you know the idea that
Well, how will they ever learn to pull themselves up by their bootstraps jake if if somebody gives that one year old
free access to medicine
Do you think that perhaps part of the problem Tim and part of the reason that people may be reluctant to believe that the the issues in our education system lie more
In the environmental problems and the general welfare issues that children face
Rather than blaming teachers is due to statistics like these because if you believe that 83% of kids can't read
It's hard to believe that teachers are doing a good job of teaching
But if the if that number is smaller if the if it's more um on the margins kids are falling behind kids need help on these situations
Then it's much more easier to make that connection for people that okay the teaching is okay
But there's problems outside of the teaching and isn't is that perhaps intentional on on some people's part
Oh
Yeah, is it intentional? I mean, you know if you want to put this show in in a real simple brief
Yes, the intentionality of duping the public into believing the sky is falling to either make people hate teachers to think that
You know kids aren't learning to sell new curriculum. That's the point Jacob
That is the point
Well, that's a sunny way to wrap up this part of the the conversation um
We we've got so much out of just that first part of the conversation
I'm reluctant to launch into something new
But there was just one more aspect that I wanted to cover if we we can try to do so in a relatively
Time-conscious manner
And I'll start with you Johnny on the show. I have heard as your producer
We have these fellows come on from different schools different educators different methods
And I hear a little bit of a slight hint of sometimes it can come across as
Derision towards oh everyone wants to talk about can can kids read or or reading and things like that
And I want to ask just to clarify is it important that children should be able to read or is that so
2000 late and we're moving on to AI and two hour schools what what what's going on Johnny is reading important or am I
Over emphasizing something old-fashioned
What what Jacob I'll say I'm not a player, but I read a lot
Okay, uh, but but no jokes aside
Um reading is incredibly important
But what's more important I think and this is not me putting down reading is literacy
And literacy we have to think about more broadly and sometimes open mindedly that maybe
Children's
Attention to reading the novel Moby Dick
Is different generationally?
Then maybe say they are at reading comment threads or you know the
The and this is me dating myself. I don't even know what I'm I'm reaching for what kind of reading occurs when you're on tiktok
Or when you're on youtube. I mean, it's a form of literacy reading their world
And the role that interpreting signs and symbols in a particular order
Translates to them making sense and thinking and doing that so that's literacy
And I think that that will always be important and the amount of actual reading may change
Over time, so that's a both
And question yes reading is absolutely important
But more important than the amount of reading
Is children's literacies right there they're making sense of signs and symbols and communications and so um, I think it's like yes
Reading is absolutely important will always be important
But to understand it as more than say here is a 750 word passage
You know read it in these 10 minutes and then answer these 12 questions
And you know fill in the bubbles. I'm taking a I'm taking a poke here at standardized testing and you know the curriculum
That's measuring proficiency and then really saying well, what are children's literacies?
How are they reading the world and how are we recognizing their intelligences?
Because I think Tim brought this up before
The current young people these generations
I'm not putting them down
What I do agree that they have a changed relationship
To reading that say Tim and I have an even you Jacob half
So I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing
But I think so that's my both then reading is important
But more important is recognizing and valuing their literacies
Which is a form of reading
Tim same question to you is a reading pass A or have you in clawed and chat GPT
Evolved beyond the need for reading or do you think there's still value in it?
As I said um, you know on the morning
Thursday morning on the john and gordy show um
You know it could be that um, there's an evolution
Potentially occurring within the human species where some form of telecommunication between
Humans is emerging. No
Um look uh again back from the 70s riff
reading is fundamental
um, you know, that used to be the commercial and and it still points out that yes
But what johnny points out is is that
You know in in one sense what does it mean to read
And what are we doing
To first acknowledge multiple ways quote kids are literate in reading
And think about he just described to me one of the most incredibly
horrendous
Ways that we actually create
reading anger
750 words
You've got five to ten minutes to read the passage
And you got to answer these five questions and
That process is supposedly communicating
Whether you're a good reader or not
Since when when you're reading on your own do you set a stopwatch
And point out to yourself that I got to read this page in one minute or on behind
And then I need to know the answers to these questions because some unknown person
Said that these are the important things I read about well crap when I read
I really was excited about this part of the story not that part of the story
So
You know think about how we even try to communicate reading is so damn important
Well, if it was so damn important
Why would we not be doing everything we can to encourage and empower passion and love of reading
When actually what we do to come up with these measures that are proficient grade level whatever you want
are actually examples of
Probably the most horrendous way
To assess whether somebody's a good reader
Hit me with a doctor Tim
Tell me what is a good way to get kids reading
Instead of forcing them to read 750 words within a set time limit what what is your I'm a I'm Dr. Tim selecker
I've got good ideas and this is how I'm going to help kids start reading
I mean the first thing is this to recognize that reading is as a timed
um, you know probe again fluency. This is another word that comes across with reading fluency
Your child's not fluent
What's that mean?
Well, I can tell you what that means Jacob and um, I don't know if I'm going to answer your question this way
But my daughter in in kindergarten. I've told this story multiple times on this show different ways
um
We were called in because
She was having a tough time according to the assessments that were being given
And she looked like she was not going to be a good reader
Now she was already
Quote reading books at home and stuff and we found like well what what what is the evidence for this
Well her speed
At reciting and reading nonsense words is not at the speed limit that it should be
So she wasn't reading fake words
Fast enough in kindergarten and therefore
She had a problem
That sounds a little bit like quackery to meet him
Yeah, but this is so early as early as kindergarten
We were setting up kids to start to associate some form of speed
And that meaning I'm a good reader or not a good reader and and how many potentially people go oh my god
Yeah, we got to help her and I kind of came at this and when I'm like first of all
Who cares how many?
Fake words she can read I want her to read real words
You know, so the first problem is fake words and then fake words fast
You know and and so this is really so what what would I do I would first just again allow reading to
Emerge as as something that kids
Want to engage in and so this is kind of all this early stuff guess what when kids are really young
They have lots of access to really great
Picture books with things that they can flip through and when they turn it upside down and they look at it
They're allowed to you don't tell them to turn the book oh
You know in other words you almost have to just get the hell out of the way
And provide lots of opportunities for kids to explore this reading literacy thing
I that to me is the biggest the answer is get the hell out of the way
So you're saying that if Ronald Reagan were here
He'd say that nonsense words aren't the solution to the problem nonsense words are the problem
I think there's wisdom in that
To wrap this up dr. Tim and maybe even waste enough time that some problems can be resolved
To me, I think the value of reading real books in your hand piece of paper
I think the value in that for for anybody but especially for young people with the issues they face in the modern high tech
Highfalutin fancy world
Is there's value in spending time with ideas
Rather than getting them in 15 seconds from a tiktok
I think it changes the way that you can kind of spend time
Moly's ideas over see different applications of them see how they're drawn out in a book over you read it for a week
And all week not just when you're reading
But when you're writing your bike back home or you're doing things
You're reading that book all week and you're you're dealing with those ideas in your head
I think it would be good if we could encourage people to do things like that
I would say to what you said to him that the way to get somebody to read a book
Quickly is not to drill them. It's to get them to really like books
And then they're going to like reading and they're going to try to read it is at whatever level they can do
Whatever speed they can do that fits them
But that's how I came to love books. I think books are pretty cool
Dr. Tim slacker Dr. Johnny Lupinachi. Thank you so much for being on your own show
It's always a pleasure to have you here as my guest
And I just have one last thing we like to do on the program. Let's go
In 60 seconds Tim can you tell me what your favorite book was as a child
Yes, I can
My my absolute favorite book was a tale of two cities
Nice Charles Dick Charles Dickens
Yeah, that was the best book for me, but it was also the worst book for me. I don't know
Why but uh Dr. Johnny Lupinachi same question to you can you tell us about your favorite book as a kid
Oh, I loved the outsiders
That was a good one
Yeah, classic good show good books thank you Tim stay golden Johnny
And now I believe it's a thing we do
It's time for your moment of zen
We don't all have to do heroic things all we have to do is little things
And at certain points in history
Millions of little things come together and change takes place
Hey, thanks for listening to today's produces choice
And if you want more busted pencils podcasts
You head out over to apple
Spotify or you can always get a set civic media.com or on our website busted pencils.com
And don't you forget that you can get great busted pencils content every Monday for home room
Every Wednesdays for class and session and you know it folks on Fridays for producer Jacob's choice
And of course you can always tune in on Saturday and listen to the busted pencils weekend broadcast
At 3 p.m. Central time across all the civic media networks for one hour of your favorite blue collar
Scholars Tim and Johnny and keep busted pencils
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