There you go, I love it. Love the way that intro comes in. It's busted pencils fully
let it. Education talk, educated educators talking education. Civic media people. Yeah, you're
out there listening in your car, potentially right now. And, you know, Jacob, you got to
say, civic media is no longer just Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota. Civic media is like a Midwest
phenomenon, man, right? It's getting pretty exciting to him because at this point, we're getting
close to every state that is either an M or an upside down M that it starts with being part of
the family. So we're growing. We're growing. Nice. Nice. Love it. And so everybody out there who,
yeah, this is our Saturday show. And so I know we have people right now who are driving around
on Saturday somewhere up there in the Michigan, Minnesota, or the upside down M Wisconsin.
And maybe you're listening in your car, you're listening in your home, maybe you're out at, you
know, one of those awesome lakes that are here surrounded by kicking back, you know, join life,
but listening to busted pencils, we appreciate you. And of course, our podcast downloaders,
we always appreciate where you are and what you're doing and making this show great. But we are so
excited. And we'll just say, yeah, Dr. Johnny Lupinachi, yes, he will be here. You know, he's
kind of right now. He's we're giving him a warm up to get ready because he has so much that he
wants to offer tonight. He's in the bullpen right now. Good. He's in the bullpen warming up, man,
we had to give him some time to warm up, but we have a return guest. And you know, we've had
Chris has been a part of busted pencils before civic media. He's one of our first guests. Yeah,
that guy, Chris tanking that guy who could say, hey, give me a few socioeconomic factors. And
don't worry about giving those standardized tests because we can predict your test scores
before your kids even take it. Oh, yeah, that guy. He's back. You know, he's an outspoken scholar,
thought leader, and critic of education reform, associate professor of leadership management
and policy. And just an all around great guy, he's been a principal assistant superintendent,
director of curriculum, and more truly Jacob and educated educator, wouldn't you say? I would
absolutely say so. But tonight, we're not going to, well, we may get into it, but, but well,
okay, Chris, welcome. Welcome back to busted pencils. How are you doing, man?
Thank you, Tim. It's great to be here. It's always good to bust some pencils. Thank you so much
for having me. Well, I mean, you know, we've been working on this because ascending emails back
and forth, you know, through the summer. And you're like, wow, I've got this and I'm over here.
And I'm, I'm, you know, I mean, Chris is a jet setter. Let's, let's be honest. He's, you know,
going here and going there. We finally got you lined up and we're back here.
Because I was watching you on, you know, LinkedIn, different social medias and stuff. And I was
noticing that you were starting to have some a little bit of commentary and thoughts on the,
the new thing that's happening in education, that would be artificial intelligence.
And I was like, I gotta get Chris on to talk about this because, well, you know,
John, he's not here to make fun of me. But as he always says, Tim worships at the church of
artificial intelligence. In fact, though, I am now, I'm learning and potentially, you know,
I'm in the AI seminary, Chris. And hopefully one day will become, you know, a minister in the
church of AI. Chris, AI teaching and learning, the whole thing, though, first, let me ask you this
question. Fad or here to stay? It's here to stay. It's definitely not a fad. And I say that
because Wall Street has completely adopted it, bought into it. It is in the, the economic
structure of the country now. So it is definitely here to stay.
Okay. Tell me about Wall Street, though, too. I mean, why, what is it about Wall Street that
makes you go, okay, look, if Wall Street's in, then, sorry, we just got to figure this out. What,
what, tell us more about your sense on that? Well, corporations, corporate America isn't going
to spend literally trillions of dollars investing in something that's, that they're not going to
get a big payoff from. And that's going to go away in a short time. So, I mean, you can see it with
the build out of major data centers all over the country now. You can see, you can see it through
companies investing in other AI companies. It's, it's everywhere. It's, it's, it's everywhere.
And it's making people a lot of money. So that tells me where there's money, there's power,
where there's power, there's staying power. Okay. Not that I needed to, to believe you, because
I feel the same way, the, the, the amount of money, in fact, I was just listening to an, an AI
podcast that I listen to, you know, because I need to constantly be given collade to keep,
you know, keep myself going where I'm at. But, you know, it's interesting what you say about
the money. I mean, you know, people are paying attention, you know, really big, quote, money deal,
Nvidia and Oracle. Here it was it this week or the end of last week, announcement of, you know,
Nvidia or, Oracle and then open AI, of course, or, you know, like billions of dollars of cross
type of investments in each other. And according to these, these guys that I listen to,
they're like, you know, what's interesting here is, is that if you took all of the commitments
from all three of these players, none of them actually have the, the money they've all actually
committed to, they're kind of making this commitments based on the going like, we're probably going
to make that amount of money in two to three years when this deal actually goes forward.
How do people think about that, Chris? I know we're not in education, but I mean, is that a cause
for alarm, like a potential like going, okay, wait a minute, this could fall apart very quickly
then if these guys are truly trading and making monetary decisions with money, they don't have.
Well, I think it has everything to do with education because now you're seeing every,
many products that are now entering the education ecosystem are all marketing
themselves with AI tools, you know, AI powered, AI tools, AI equipped, AI charged,
all of these things have now become marketing tools in the education landscape.
So I think Wall Street and education are clearly tied and look, many of the companies that
are selling AI products to education are listed on the stock exchange. So that's, you know,
look at Microsoft, Google has their Google education suite. And they're all backing Apollo
education is another one that's publicly traded education company. They're all they're all
backing and pushing AI products. So there's a lot of money to be made. That doesn't mean that AI
cannot be useful. In fact, it can be it can be incredibly useful. But I just think we need to be
aware that the goal here is is economic, not educational. We're economics first education second.
So as educators, we need to be aware of the economic side of things. We need to be aware what's
going on with these companies. So that when we're approached with with products, we can do our due
diligence to make sure it fits our educational needs, not the companies, not just the companies
economic needs. All right. So on that then, let's let's break through then and, you know,
kind of admit, we're in the safe space here. Chris, are you a user of AI?
Tim? I am a user of AI. It feels better, doesn't it? To admit it?
I'm free. I'm free, man. You know, Jacob's just sitting there going like holy crap.
That is radio gold right there. Two people who came clean. I think it's beautiful that we can all
be honest with each other. And my name is Jacob and I'm an AI user. There we go. And for you,
listeners out there, yeah, get in touch with us. If you're an AI user and you've been afraid to
admit it because we'd like to have you on the show. All right. Yeah. You're I use it too. And
and I gotta, you know, I'm as concerned, but at the same time, I'm pretty inspired by what I see
is possible with this. And maybe I'll take that that twist that back to the kind of thing like
education reform, you know, standardized testing, measuring kids, quote, on linear accumulation
of, you know, factual based knowledge and the ability to repeat that. That's kind of been the
marker of saying whether or not you're, quote, educated, whether your schools winning or losing,
whether your teachers are good or crappy was all on these measures. And I'm looking at a
couple of people who are saying, well, why do we, why did we ever care? And now, which guess what,
go back and research a bunch of busted pencils episodes, wave in the past, especially with Chris
where we talked about we shouldn't have cared all those other times. But why would we ever care
when and I'm gonna try to phrase this the right way? AI was perfectly designed to do incredibly
well on those types of tests. And did we ever really imagine that kids scoring well on some
form of memory accumulation really meant that they were learning anyway. And so now we have AI
machines, AI tools where actually the accumulation of knowledge, finding knowledge, getting access to
it. Ethan Malik, a guy who I follow a lot right now is kind of putting out mass intelligence. It's
there. It's free. Everything's potentially changed if we're talking about teaching and learning, Chris.
Does that make sense? It does. I think this is a game changer. And I think what, you know, I remember
the first time I used it back in November, 2022 when it, when it first came out. And I threw some
prompts in there. And I immediately called my, my, my daughter, my oldest daughter who was a junior
in high school and said, do you, do you and your friends know about this tool? And she said, no,
not yet. I said, Oh, you will. But the as soon as I used it, I saw that there's potential here
to get us to where we always want it to be in terms of active learning, actually applying
knowledge to do something meaningful with it. And I think that's what AI gives, like you said,
it's just kind of like this, this massive accessibility to knowledge. So now we can take it and use
it. Yeah, we can. Our guests, Dr. Christopher Tanken, yes, we are talking AI education reform too,
you know, got a lot going on. It's, I don't know. And as we now have come clean, we all have admitted
here, Jacob, Chris and myself. We are AI users and we now feel free and we invite all of you to come
back and admit that you two are one busted pencils more when we get back.
We're back. Musted pencils fully let it education talk educated educators talking education.
Well, talking AI, AI education. Yeah, we've all come clean. Jacob, our guest, Dr. Christopher Tanken,
me, we are AI users and we feel the freedom that comes with admitting to the world that's who we
really are. Chris, though, I mean, you know, during the break, you brought up,
that's what I know, you've done a ton of work with John Dewey. I mean, I know this has been
some of the things you were talking about. What do you think John Dewey would say at this moment,
with AI in front of us, what would he be telling us?
And, you know, yeah, I mean, you know, John Dewey, the father of, what would you say, Chris,
the father of progressive education in America? Well, maybe two months.
Francis Parker, Francis Parker, the father. But so I think John Dewey brought it to the mainstream,
to the forefront. And if you're asking me, what would Dewey say? Look, I think he would see this
as a tool, as a way to free teachers and students from the chains of memorization and regurgitation
and get on to the real learning that he talked about in terms of experiential learning.
Having students put their knowledge to use. So look, that doesn't mean there's no value in
memorization and regurgitation. But I think we've certainly gone way too far, with kind of like
this knowledge acquisition, knowledge storage mode of education. So now we have the knowledge at our
fingertips. Now it's about teaching students, when you have massive knowledge at your fingertips,
how do you approach that knowledge so that you can use it in an effective way? I think that's
really where we want to go. And that brings us right into problem-based education.
Yeah. Yeah, thinking about that, it's just like, okay, this is exciting. And again, kind of going
back to what I was pointing out that, you know, so AI can perfectly perform super well on
knowledge acquisition. And because I guess what? It has it all. It's got it there. And that in one
way, what we were doing for, as you point out, you know, 150 years, is we've been kind of saying
that evidence of students accumulating and then regurgitating back the accumulation of that knowledge
equals learning. But then when you talk to people that are like, well, but what's really important
is creating, you know, critically functioning, well-informed citizens who know how to make sense
of the problems in the world. And we're not sure exactly if kids can do that. But in the meantime,
we're going to say that because they could remember 45 out of 50 facts, we think that they're ready.
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Whether they can actually use that knowledge to solve the problems
we have, that's not really important in the current education policy environment.
Right. Right. And so, you know, you're putting that out there. Okay. So, look, you know,
it's behind the, you know, you're, you can now finally see the sausage. You can look behind
the curtain. You can see who the wizard really is. Guess what? Mem, you know, factual rep, what do you
want to say? Factual regurgitation is, is no indicator of learning, of application, of critical
thought, of, you know, functioning in a diverse society with complex cultural problems, environmental
issues, scientific things. That was us doing the best we could at the time, assuming that, hey,
if you know a lot, you must know how to do something with knowing a lot.
Right. Yes. Look, the memorization regurgitation was never effective. It's, it's only effective
in, in policy makers minds because it's easy to measure. But in, in the real world, right,
we actually have to accomplish things. So, that's where I think the hands-on use of knowledge,
that's where these tools come in, because we can spend, we can spend less time on memorization
regurgitation and more time on application, creation, and innovation. And that's really where we
need to go. That, that's where the world has gone. The, the economic world is there, okay?
If we want to really prepare students for the future, we need to move in that direction.
Well, yeah, so thinking about that, right? You've made just, you know, problem-based learning.
People are always talking about that. You know, yeah, it's real life. Let's give kids real life
experiences. And, you know what, that's, guess what? And I've seen really great educators pull that
off with so much effort. And then, you know, sadly, sometimes a lot of so much kind of, you know,
the vision from colleagues or the society of going, what are you doing spending so much time with
these, you know, these students doing this stuff? I mean, they, they're not learning to read
the right way. They're not learning to do, do math. And here, though, Chris, it's like,
I also see like AI allowing teachers, giving them the power to create truly problem-based
types of situational learning like they never could before in the past.
The AI is an outstanding efficiency tool. And I think it's super charges teach your planning
and instruction. Absolutely. Man, okay. And if you're still out there thinking, I don't know if I
really want to come clean. It's busted pencils. It's your time. You are an AI user.
We want to know it. Well, we are here, too. More with Dr. Chris tanking when we get back.
Oh, it's the head banging time. It's busted pencils fully-led at education talk, educated,
educators talking, education with, yeah, Dr. Chris tanking and Jacob and Dr. Johnny Lupinati.
We got him back. Chris, though, okay. So a lot of what we've done the first two halves is kind of,
I guess, potentially maybe even pushed kind of our view that everything's awesome. AI is going
to be the best thing in the world. That is not to say that we're not aware of. And in fact,
there's a lot to be cautious about in this moment. And you have some pretty good principles
of if we're going to use AI, what should we be thinking about? Right. I don't want the listeners
to think that they've entered an AI revival meeting here. There are certainly a lot of promises.
But there are also some, some perils. So when I work with teachers and leadership teams
on integrating AI effectively and ethically and professionally into the curriculum, there's a
couple, there's a few principles that I give them. Number one, view AI as a personal assistant,
a support, not a replacement. So you use it as a support, as a personal assistant, but it should
never replace you. Number two, anything that comes out of AI, anything that is created by AI,
you always need to critique, revise and customize it before using it with children. You never want
to let the AI come between you and the student. So it shouldn't be teaching for you, actively
teaching for you. You really need to look at the, if you do use it for grading the way that you
use it because you got to keep in mind, AI doesn't know your students. It may give, quote unquote,
correct feedback, but that might not be the feedback that that student needs at that moment. It
can't give targeted feedback like an education professional. And the final thing is, as I said publicly
before, these things are privacy dumpster fires. We really need to be careful about the information
that you put in there. So as I tell educators, never put anything, identify all about yourself
or your students. And I don't know, you know, birth dates, names, ages, keep it all very anonymous.
Johnny, you're like, okay, man, thank God I'm here to break up this revival.
I'm coming in late, but you know, always honored to be part of the process of, you know,
witnessing this, listening to it with our listeners and being part of the conversation.
It's great. Chris, just a follow up. I had, I hadn't, I know I'm late to always the AI stuff,
but it's been like, like Tim and I have been kicking it back and forth. It's been such a powerful
tool in a lot of educational contexts in part of discussions teachers are having. And I think
they've been really great discussions like how are we and are we going to be engaging with this
tool? And I like those principles you just laid out for us, right? It's I think a really good
guideposts to make sure we're considering as, you know, we're, we're moving fast with this
stuff, but not without thought. And Chris, I until just recently, I never thought of the privacy
thing. That might have been my own liners, but recently, you know, I've been reading statements
that like publishers or different people have been putting together and, you know, requesting and
part of my job. I do a lot of reviewing articles. And you know, that's a lot of like reading what
people are proposing and kind of they're sharing their research with some trust that like you're,
it's in the care of reviewers. And, you know, I recently read a posting like, please don't
use AI, please don't put these manuscripts into AI. And I've been in some workshops about,
you know, grading papers and like can can AI help, you know, writing instructors be better
graders or get better feedback. And I think this privacy issue is key, like thinking about like if
you do utilize these tools, how do you utilize them with care and knowledge of this? So that's my
long-winded way, Chris, could you elaborate on that privacy piece a little bit more for listeners
out there who are like, wait a minute, what if I'm engaging in like maybe student writing going in
there or like what are what are why why be be careful about that privacy thing? Sure. I'm
going to give you an example that just occurred in August. Some of your listeners may be
may be even aware of this. So, you know, thousands of chats from chat GPT users ended up
locatable in Google searches. I think it was was in August. So now consider the teacher who puts in
students IEPs in the chat GPT and you know, good-hearted looking for suggestions. What are some
great ways that I can work with this student? But now the IEP ends up in a Google search. So that's
the kind of thing. I tell teachers, if you don't know where the data is going, then it's not private
and we don't know where the data are going. So, so nothing is is private. So, just never use
student names, never anything identifiers, anything like that, even in our own personal life.
Everything's got to be anonymous because if you don't know where it's going, that means it's
probably searchable and public. What a great example too, because what a thoughtful way that can help
like a teacher who's maybe, you know, reading an IEP, that's an individualized educational plan.
You know, so the learner has some accommodations and that's their teachers reading this. Totally
like Chris just pointed out, right? Like a like a good-hearted approach. What can I do differently
to help this young person learn fractions, right? And AI can probably give you some ideas and like,
you said too, like don't take it as like we can play on that word of like this being a revival
meeting. Don't take it as gospel. You know, get some suggestions and kind of talk with others
about it and think through it, but it can help out a lot with those things. So great tip to like
engage with these tools, but with knowledge of how important it is to maintain that confidentiality
of that student's identity and their individualized education plan and things like that.
Maybe it's like a behavior plan or any of those kinds of things. But think about that though,
too Chris, I mean, what I what I think you're saying though too is there is power in the AI
to be incredibly helpful with quote NIEP. However, as a professional educator,
that means you have responsibilities to protect the identity of that student. But you can quote
create kind of like a mock IEP minus identifiers that then you could throw in and say,
help me out AI. Sure. And AI has the capability to to break down learning barriers for students in
ways that we didn't have access to or it took too long. Now it doesn't take any time at all. But
you as the educator, you still have to have a professional knowledge space. You still need to know
the questions to ask and why you're and why you're asking them. So I think again, there's a lot of
promise, but you have to be aware of the perils. The other thing that I tell teachers is if
your district does not have a clear policy on AI use with students, do not use it with students.
You know, that's a district responsibility to lay out the ground rules, lay out the guardrails
for things that are used with students by teachers. So if your district doesn't have a policy,
don't use it with students. Well, with that one, then Chris, too, I mean, I know a lot of the work
you do is with educational leaders. What are they saying as you're talking to them about that? I
mean, you know, tell us what principles and superintendents are grappling with at this moment.
Yeah. So look, everybody is grappling with what should be in a policy. A lot of
places have policies, but a lot still do not have policies. And so the questions I'm getting is
what should be in the policy? How do you develop a policy for a tool that is always changing?
But and I tell them you have to come back to principles, principles of education that aren't
going to change. Again, for example, you need to review everything that comes out of AI. That's not
going to change. As a professional educator, that is your responsibility.
Hmm. Well, there's that. Yeah. Wow. I mean, and so this is to understand, Johnny,
be, you know, before you were here, though, Jacob and Chris and we all publicly announced that we
are AI users and we set ourselves free. So I don't know if you want to take this moment to it.
Also, be become part of the group. We're not anonymous here, though. But you know what,
Chris, as as we go back, though, to the potential promise, you know, one of the things that you
had the opportunity to listen to the podcast with with Mike Bigley, one of the superintendents in,
you know, up in rural Wisconsin where they are, what we feel is doing some really kind of truly
groundbreaking work with with AI. What do you think? Sure. When I listened to Mike, the first
thing that came to my mind was they are using AI to go from aspirational to operational. We all
have these, these, these wonderful dreams of what education can be. That's the, that's the
aspirations. We got to make them operational. And I think using AI the way that his district
is helps to do that. It helps to personalize the learning for students. It helps to problematize
the learning for students. And it sounds as if he is really moving the district. The district is
really moving in the direction of using knowledge, applying knowledge, creativity creatively and
innovative. Yeah, I know that that's kind of, and Johnny, you got to, and we didn't share this one.
Johnny, you got to interview one of the other superintendents up there. Oh,
absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, absolutely. I did, man. We had a great conversation about the awesome
things happening. And you know, very similar. It resonates with this conversation of like,
you know, educational leaders, school teachers, you know, even parents involved in that. And
including students, how they are experiencing. We are all engaging in like, what is this powerful
tool? How is it helping make education better? And what are some of the limitations and pitfalls?
And how do we navigate that? It's been, it's been a good ongoing conversation.
I think Johnny's got it, Chris, but no, but I think it's a Johnny's point. You know, how do we
navigate it? I think we can use the, the Kim principle. And that's keep kids in mind when you
are deploying a tool like that. If we always keep the student at the center of our thinking, better
things will happen. And I couldn't agree with that more, man. The best technology is the technology
that helps, helps kids stay engaged, right? Helps, it's in their hands. It's in their engagement,
you know, you can hand me a bunch of more technology. And I'm not going to be necessarily a more
effective teacher. But when the kids are learning and they're engaged in it and together we're doing
that, you know, great things can happen. And yeah, then, and that engagement piece and oh, man,
holy crap, Chris, almost out of time with you. Chris, we also though, have you seen the,
coming out of what the alpha school, the two hour learning phenomena and you know, we actually
interviewed the, what we would call a principle, but the head of their high school in Austin.
And really, because I think that they are, whatever it is with private and a custom on money,
but they are taking on the engagement aspect that has been a real problem in education.
Sure. And Tim, I think part of that, you know, I don't know enough, I haven't been to that
school. And I'd also like to see things five and 10 years from now. But, you know, a big advantage
they have is they're not under state standards and state testing. They're not trapped under the
1895 paradigm. Oh, nice bringing that back Chris like that and going, okay, please public school
leaders, actually not even leaders, policymakers, set us free. So we can do some darn good work.
Chris, as always, man, thanks for busting pencils with us. Thank you, my pleasure. Thank you
so much for having me. Not a problem when we get back. Tim and Johnny and Jacob, we're going to
break it down.
We're back, pasted pencils fully landed.
Education, talk, educated educators, talking education, Dr. Johnny Lupinati, Jacob chairman
of the boards, me, Dr. Tim Slecker, and what a great guess. Love having Chris on always bringing
us, you know, something to think about. You know, he again, his, you know, out there working with
education leaders, doing all that work and just being able to, you know, the comment to see the
promise of AI as a really powerful moment that could really reshape how we're doing education,
but then also making sure to remind us of the perils, the potential pitfalls. But Johnny,
more importantly, the professional responsibility that comes with, you know, the work we do as educators,
we got to always be thinking about these things. And that's what I like about what Chris was saying,
is like, hey, this is a, this is a great, okay, use the word toll, a great learning device.
But your principles, your responsibilities, your, your professionalism, you got to keep,
got to keep that in front and center. I mean, that's what I heard him saying.
Johnny, yeah, and I love that because I love that aspect of it because it's actually really important
in anything in life, especially when we talk about being an educator or being a citizen at democracy,
you know, there's some responsibilities that come with that. And there's ethical dimensions,
and really every action has a consequence. So knowing what those potential consequences are
is informed decision making. And this is no different. It's just that technology moves so fast.
I know. And actually in this context, it speeds up the work. So it gets kind of exciting as a
tool. I'm like, man, wow, like this is really helpful. Like this is a pretty powerful tool. And I
love the times where educators talk with other educators about, okay, so it's potential or all
these things. How does that play out? And what are the principles, right? Not the P.A. Alconn,
not the principles who are like helping come up with these, you know, policies in their districts,
but the principles, right, the PLES version of the word, you know, what are those sort of guiding
rules of thumb? I guess that's not the best metaphor to use all the time because of the history
of what that phrase actually stands for. That could be another trivia sometime down the look down
the line on a maybe a producer's choice. But the whole idea being like, hey, what's good about
this? What do we want to keep and put to use? And what are some of the, you know, do's and don'ts?
What's the, what's the, oh, better watch out about that? So that's going to, that's going to emerge
from these kinds of conversation from research around how do we use AI in teachers talking with
other teachers and school leaders talking with other school leaders and their teachers and students
and parents, like a good old fashioned democratic discussion, kind of like a town hall,
a town hall meeting per se about how are we using AI? How is it using us? And where do we kind of fit
in between those things? But you gave, you gave a really great kind of lead into that of, of,
of, you know, an inspired enthusiastic seeing the potential working with AI, you know, a teacher
and just, you know, really going, wow, this is great. And then kind of where, where Chris was going
and going, oh my god, if I'm going to take this IEP and I'm going to throw it in because man,
it could give me amazing feedback and ideas. And again, fully from the standpoint of saying wanting
to do best by the student, but then going like, whoa, hold on. You know, take a moment and,
and that's where boy, I mean, Chris bringing that up and then the way you talked about it,
it's just like, you know, like anybody gets so excited because of the good youth you're doing.
Yeah, move fast. And then the fast, but then the potential of going like, oh, wait, crap,
I didn't even think about that. Yeah. And, and then I also really like how he talked about if
you're, if there's not a policy in your school or school district, don't use it. And so that,
well, I like being in that position, being like, well, then we have to voice, hey, we need a
policy so that we can engage with this tool because, you know, get with the times. It's in every
students, you know, technologies. It's in our classroom. But we need some collective responsibility
around how we use it. So getting those policies in place. Again, technology moves fast. It's part
of our responsibility to figure out those ethical dimensions and sort of fair use principles.
So love that, that, you know, shout out that Chris gave us to on that. Like, hey, remember,
use it, but use it with permission.
Hmm. John, speaking of moving fast, man, I got to see you on the ice, man, because
from what I understand, Johnny Lupinacci is like quick silver on the ice, enough of that now.
It's time for your moment of sin.
To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history
is a history, not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, and kindness.
Hey, thanks for listening to Busted Pencil's broadcast today. And remember to grab great podcasts,
chock full of more fully-ledded education talk on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and of course,
on the Civic Media website. And don't be late for our home room on Monday and make sure you catch
next week's class and session on Wednesday and find us on Friday for, of course, producer Jacob's
choice special shows. And just like today, you can catch Busted Pencils at 3 p.m. Central time
across all the Civic Media Network stations for one hour of your favorite blue collar
scholars, Tim and Johnny, and keep Busted Pencils.
you