Oh, yeah, lusty pencils fully let it education talk educated educators talking education dr. Johnny Lupinaggi me dr. Tim
Lecker and of course chairman of the board Jacob. Yeah, that's him. As Johnny says to chairman of the board Jacob. Um, I
classes in session. Big dog at the desk. We have to
share the board. There you go. We got him back. Um, you know, I can't get enough of, uh,
Randy Wine Garden, you know, we had such, you know, great classes in session last week,
leading into an incredible Saturday, one hour with Randy Wine Garden president of AFT talking
about her new book, Why Teachers fear fascists and so much that that kind of went on in the
way. Why fascists fear. Oh, why teach why corrections slide. Yeah, slide at it. Thank you, Johnny,
you know, and, you know, as a teacher, I do fear fascists. Um, but anyway,
so much that happened during that interview that I am thinking it escapes me like what happened
some of those things, you know, because you're deep in a conversation, right? And you're,
you're throwing it out there, you're going back and forth. And it's like, like sometimes, you
know, I know we can always listen to it back, but I'm thinking j-j-j-j-j-j Jacob chairman of the board
witnessed, listened to saw the whole thing. Jacob, who is your most memorable moment
from the Randy Wine Garden interview or where do you think, you know, Tim really screwed up
and could have asked a better question or, you know, Johnny was just, well, you know, he was just
Johnny. Jacob, Tim, I don't know what you were thinking with the setup you gave Johnny for his
internet, but that was a huge mistake on your part for that episode. That shined through to make
us usually, Johnny's chiming in way too much this time, not enough. So we need to find a healthy
balance where we can have all the Johnny we want on the show. For me, I enjoyed the episode,
the thing I really liked about it as producer Jacob, Chuchu chairman of the board. I have many names,
I'm very famous. Um, what I try to bring to the program when I talk with you guys and when I
contribute is trying to find ways to take your high pollutant smart big brain pedagogy and bring
it down to a level that a non educator can understand and help get those messages out to people
who might not be totally steeped in this world. And I liked that Randy's book is one that works
for teachers to read, but it's also something that a non teacher can read and gain understanding
of education and what it's like to be a teacher and the problems being faced. So I saw something
there that relates to what we do here and it's shared and come with the book. I thought that was
cool. I thought good episode. I really matched our mission here. So I had a good time with that, Tim.
I like that. I like that, man. Leave it to Jacob to actually come up with a novel new fresh
take on some of the stuff that we've been doing here for lots of years at Busted Pencils.
Yeah, I just think about the fact that, you know, what was discussed there.
For me, you know, the part of the interview and I had saved it and waited and finally,
I think I got it in the third section, the third segment of the show was, you know, her
recounting of the paperclip movement in Norway with the, you know, the Nazi occupation of Norway
during World War II. And, you know, recounting and retelling that story of teachers being the resistance
to like real-time fascism at that time and the simplicity of their movement
of simply just wearing a paperclip in defiance of that takeover. You know, it really makes me wonder,
you know, what is that next paperclip movement that might be coming? And I ask that question
because I think when more and more teachers and more and more people concerned about
public schools and teaching start reading this, I'm thinking there might be a potential
resurgence of some kind of a new paperclip movement in moment where teachers kind of go like,
whoa, wait a minute. Yeah, man, enough is enough and what does it mean to resist?
Actually, resistance, the strongest, most, you know, kind of what do you want to say, effective
is simplicity, simplicity, but it is around solidarity. But to do it only requires
a simple type of action, a simple type of statement, some kind of, you know, move or demonstration
and that the act of that simplicity is what speaks volumes about a resistance movement.
That to me is where I just keep coming back to because, you know, I think teachers are
the catalyst for a thriving democracy. And what a great time right now in the middle of a totalitarian
type of takeover of teaching, some simple solidarity driven union resistance that really is
unoffensive other than to say we resist. Johnny, that's my take, man.
Tim, I like that. And I admire your romanticism of resistance in that. But I think we're on
the same page. We just maybe see the dream a little bit differently in terms of that take away from
things. I think I'm similar. And I like the way Randy really writes about it in the book. And it's
not a spoiler alert now for folks who will have heard, you know, Saturday's great interview and
discussion with Randy. And then, you know, hopefully soon they'll be able to get copies of the book
and read along. But, you know, you know, teaching is really thoughtfully defined in that book. And
they talked about, you know, the different, what do teachers do really on and why is it that
fascist fear teachers? Why's that? What's that hook? Like, what does that mean? And, you know,
it talks about the teaching is more than just like being a math teacher or, you know, teaching,
you know, sentence structures and English language arts classes or history. Those are all wonderful
and great content area related things like passing on knowledge to a next generation. Okay,
we're starting to get a little bit more towards the domains that Randy talks about, right? That
teachers, I'm particular, create opportunities, right? Which is true. Like, they're out the
epicenter of where opportunities begin for if you're going to be an astronaut, the things you learned
in schools that contribute towards that, you know, if you're going to be a nurse, if you're going
to be a barber, whatever the thing is, because Tim, I like that you situate teachers at the
forefront of things. But what they are to me is they're, they're, they're irreplaceable workers
that bring together the people, the different professions and careers that were opportunities
that began somewhere in a classroom or by sparked interest or inspiration from a teacher. And,
that's democracy is this wide range of contributing citizens who are passionate about what they do,
who contribute to the economy, whose labor is, you know, irreplaceable. They're innovation and
all the different things whether they're, you know, part of the medical field or part of the tech
industry or part of, you know, I'm grasping here, you know, the skilled traits, all of the things
that people do started somewhere likely really close to a great teacher. And I'd like to say that
every kid has had a great teacher. Hopefully, listener, you have had at least one great teachers,
because Tim and I, we joke a lot about how many bad teachers we had. But one of the things we
definitely had is we've each had a handful of really great teachers that made opportunities
for us to be who we are today. The other thing, Tim, is this where we converge that Randy talks about
is that teachers belong to something bigger than themselves, not just the democracy,
but they belong to teachers unions, which isn't like a plug for, hey, man, let's, let's protest
because we're union, although that's part of it. It's, you belong. Our world is so fractured and
so individualized for everybody out there, no matter what your profession, we are constantly
feeling further and further apart from one another as a whole, right? We're divided, divided,
we fall, united, we stand. Randy talks about that teachers unions have a long history
stating, and you could read the book, there's a brief history of teachers unions in there too,
which I love being a union history nerd, but that goes back to teachers saying it's so important
that we are not divided on these really important matters of what it's like to be a teacher,
but also how we care for children as they become adults in this country. And if teachers don't have
a say in that, we're in big trouble. So Randy culminates as part of the book, although there's a
chapter after that, but it's just part of being a teacher is belonging to something. And it's not
just public education, but it's belonging to a group of teachers, a family of teachers, a union,
doesn't even have, maybe it's not the AFT, Randy's the president of the AFT, but it's belonging to,
you know, a group. Maybe it's your local like W-E-A, right? I'm sure there's the Wisconsin Educators
Association, like in Michigan, there was a Michigan Educator's Association, those are teacher
unions at the state level, right? But you belong to a group of people who share the same experience
and have a set of expert skills that ought to have a say in the profession that Tim and I are both
saying are absolutely irreplaceable to a strong democracy. You've got to have great teachers
in order to have a strong democracy. You can't be a strong nation without great teachers.
So part of that, what we do as teachers is we union together, and I don't mean that necessarily
in the stereotype of how many people might hear unions. Unions aren't perfect, just like schools
aren't perfect, just like families aren't perfect. Perfection isn't a goal. It's about the act
of solidarity of being united. So Tim, whether that's kind of what you mean by a paper clip moment,
like I, I am, this is my shock, you. I am like the last man to believe that another protest is going
to do anything in this context. Having been now, I don't know how many dozen in my teacher lifetime,
just on education, like our collective voice, it's important. I'm not saying don't do it,
but to me, the simplest thing is that we begin to really union together.
Now that might be participating in your union, but it means showing solidarity, building trust
in relationships in your school, across your district, across your state, on what it means to be
a teacher, and that you should have a voice in the kinds of ways that we teach and boom, hey,
historically, that's been what unions do for our profession and for our country.
So I'm excited about that small thing. I think big things are easy to take out by like fascists
like big things. You know what, though, I don't think we, we, we converge at all. Actually, too,
just a little bit more clarity. I too have been, I can join you over the years. In fact,
was even one of the impetus of one of the big movements, the opt-out movement. I've been
part of these big, organized, you know, kind of, I guess you want to say, you know, protest movements
that were planned. And I've seen them, you know, like you not work, not do a darn thing.
You know, it was great to get together in Washington, D.C. for two summers with opt-out parents
and teachers and stuff like that. You know, we had a ball. We got to, you know, really believe
we were doing something. And, you know, we marched, we got good pictures, you know, type into
Google, opt-out movement, occupy the DOE pictures, and you can probably find some of them.
But it didn't do anything. And, and it's potentially what I was saying that, you know,
the paperclip, Johnny, was really more that solidarity, solidarity symbol that really didn't come
necessarily from a planned, organized protest. It was that sense of solidarity that you're talking
about that inspired that kind of, you know, unioning that you were talking about and coming together.
And so, you know, because yeah, less, you know, the last thing, what was it, a 90 song or something?
The last thing we need is another protest song. I can't think of it.
I think those are important things to have, like protest, protest songs. I just think like we
ought not lose sight. And now I think we're saying the same thing. We ought not lose sight of the
things that bring us together and that are hard to see in name and to stop, right? Because if I say,
hey, this is what we're doing and this is what it looks like and this is what's going to be. And if
it threatens, you know, if it strengthens democracy and threatens tyranny, I think I said that word,
right? I don't have a producer just like helped me with my words, tyranny and tyranny, tyranny,
man, we got what we said, right? Yeah, you did it, man. You did it. Yeah. So, but the idea here being
like, this is, I think like, like you said, kind of a commonplace thing that unifies us, brings us
together to say enough is enough. And we are strengthening our response to the need for a really
important work that we're seeing threatened in so many ways. And that's one of the things that
come back around to for me, the book, I've been a teacher for, you know, over 25 years now.
And I teach teachers, I write about education. We talk about educational time on this show.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, it is, I have a passion for it. And I love to describe it and
talk about it and and understand it in all kinds of ways. But I will even admit, and I had
talked to you and Randy about this in the interview, sometimes I feel really spun around.
And it's hard to describe what we do as teachers. You know, and I could say, I'm a math teacher,
or I teach, you know, pre-calculus at the high school and I coach, you know, track, I can give
kind of common descriptions of what I do. And then people will have had an experience,
and we're like, oh, he's probably this kind of teacher I went to school. I know a little bit about
what teachers do. But it's such like sliver in the spotlight of how teachers are portrayed in
media, you know, and and Jacobs asked us some really thoughtful questions over the last month
about like, what are what are who are some of our favorite teachers? What are some of our favorite
moments? What are some of our worst moments in schools? Also, what are the teachers that inspired
us in movies? And then that we kind of think about when we're watching TV shows? Because I think
we're all on to something here. Teachers aren't often understood for the work they do. And so this
book was a renewed way of being like, wow, you know, that's a really succinct way of describing
the work we do as teachers. And a way of communicating it to whatever it is out there that you do,
to understanding that teachers don't just teach your kids to read or, you know, come up with these
really radical ideas. Like, you know, I'm going to assign a special art project. And instead of
calling it a snowman, I'm going to call it a snow person because I have a woke agenda and I want
to rile up my neighborhood. You know, like, they're not out there plotting these things, like often
it's portrayed in the media. But our response to it is always like, I always feel like as a veteran
teacher, I'm even on my heels. Like, I'm like, no, no, because we're doing this and we're doing
it. And it's like, I'm spun around describing what teachers do. And this book helped me nail it
down. Like, this is succinctly what it is we do. Here's a couple of sentences that I can share
in my community that folks can better understand my profession without buying into the hype.
Was it public? Enemy said, don't believe the hype, right? But don't believe the hype. Read the
book. Read the book. And you'll better understand what it is. You just, man, you hit something there
with how I was trying to imagine. It's just like, look, you know, I'm not talking about organizing
a movement to get back to teaching DEI to all of these, you know, as you said, snow people and
things like that. That work was work that was meaningful because of what Brandy talks about
because it's the idea of bringing people together of understanding differences, the work of a
teacher, the work, the work of a teacher was not woke indoctrination of different genders of how
we communicate with people's pronouns versus where they've come from. That work actually maybe got
moved in a way that it was able to be demonized as opposed to really recognizing what, you know, DEI
gender, all of these things. These were just ways of teaching for tolerance, for acceptance,
for harmony of what it means to live in a world that has so many different people, so many
different ways of seeing the world, so many different histories, so many different views that
Brandy's book reminds us of that was the work we were engaged in. Now, if you were a DEI, yeah, right?
It's auxiliary to that we work to teach critical thinking. Right. So if you're thinking critically
about the world, you're engaged in whether you agree with it or not, you're able to think through
and engage in a civil discourse around these important differences in our beliefs and in our
communities and in who and how we represent ourselves in our groups. The second thing being,
if you're a teacher, right, you provide a safe and welcoming environment for learners. That's
part of our what we do. That says she defines the career and the labor. So if you're doing these
two things, which is only two, I won't spoil all of them for readers, but two of the chapters,
you know, teach critical thinking as part of that also provide a safe and welcoming learning
environment. So it somehow, that's why I said, it's it regrounded me because I've been off arguing.
It's so important that we, you know, value diversity, equity and inclusion. These are these are
absolutely mainstays of democracy. They're absolutely so important, but I got pulled away from
yeah, for being like why I do this as a teacher isn't because of my political beliefs. It's because
of the labor of my profession to teach critical thinking to provide a safe learning environment for
all my students, right, to be present at opportunities, to make opportunities for young people, right,
and to be in community with other teachers, right. So these are those big four areas. And to me,
that's where it's like, wow, helps bring me back to Tim what you're saying. Like the reason we did
all of these things wasn't to be in a so-called culture war against a particular administration.
It was to do our job. It was to do it. Like when I was a plumber, my job was to stop the leak,
right. And so like if part of stopping the leak also meant wiping up water that got out of the
way, like it was just part of the job. Right. So stopping the leak for us teachers is handling that
are different people who are coming to our classrooms who deserve a safe space to learn in,
right. Who it's going to be like engaging critically in disagreement and finding moments of
agreement. But being able to do that well, that's what we teach. So again, we're we're going on
and on about get the book. Get the book. Why why fascist spear teachers, right. Randy Weigarn,
AFT president, if you're listening to this class in session and you had to listen to last Saturday's
broadcast, we're going down low that because you're like, what are these two dudes talking about?
Right. And with that Tim, man, let's kick it to you to end this one. Well, and now it's time
for your moment of sin. While some people think that descent is unpatriotic, I would argue that
descent is the highest form of patriotism.
And I love it. My guys and my gals out there listening to today's class in session. And if you
want more busted pencils podcasts, we'll just head on over to Apple Spotify or you can always
get at us at civic media.com or on our website, busted pencils.com. Remember, you can always find
great busted pencils content every Monday for home room, Wednesdays for class in session,
and on Fridays for producer Jacobs choice. And of course, pencil busters, you're going to tune in
on Saturdays and listen to the busted pencils weekend broadcast at 3 p.m. Central time across all
the civic media networks for one hour of your favorite blue color scholarship, Tim and Johnny,
and keep busted pencils.