Yeah.
Rustic pencils fully-led at Education Talk.
Educated Educator's Tucking Education.
Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, me, you know, Dr. Tim Slecker, and oh my, on Fridays, of course,
the Jacob, the chairman of the board, the Jacob, the Jacob Ohio State, the Jacob chairman
of the board.
Um, yeah, it's Friday, and you know what that means?
His Jacob takes over the show and interviews Tim and Johnny and Tim and Johnny get to
be guests on their own show.
It's got to be one of the few shows out there where the hosts of the show get to be interviewed
on their own show, Jacob, right?
I think so.
I've looked it up.
I've, uh, I've checked the internet.
I asked Claude and he couldn't find any examples of this.
And not only do we get interviewed.
It's in this always entertaining game show, ask format.
So it's a pretty exciting Friday, every time we get to drop this.
So, man, let's do it.
Let's buckle in and go for this week's producer's choice.
That's delicious.
Jacob, let's not waste any time for two, two producer at Jacob's choice, chairman of the
board.
You and I will have two choices, chairman of the board, Jacob.
Oh, Jacob, chairman of the board.
I, I've got the board.
It's spelled B-O-R-E-D.
We choose to go to the full life of tough choices in him, who chose one.
Tim, Johnny, as always, thank you so much for being here on your own show.
I know it's not easy, but you guys, I mean, somehow you managed to make it here every Friday.
And I love that.
We, I wouldn't miss it for the world.
Jacob, it's a, it's a highlight of the week.
We're wrapping things up here.
Johnny couldn't miss it.
And as people know, Thursday nights, man, I sit in bed and wonder and ponder, drink lots
of water and sweat, wondering, what is Jacob going to bring to me?
On Friday.
Oh, I don't know, Jacob, I might be ready.
Well, I brought some good ones this week as, as always, but I feel like for the people
watching the video, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this.
Johnny's got some shades on today.
Yeah.
Well, you know what they say?
Are you just feeling dangerous today?
Yeah, it helps me dial in.
It helps me be ready.
It's a Friday thing, man.
You know, it's been a week.
It's been a busy one.
We are a full swing back into, you know, a life on campus in the classroom, in meetings,
and all the stuff that, you know, goes with being an educator, but Jacob too, it's also
a holiday weekend.
So this is full Friday mode right now.
That's what we're going for.
I got, you know, though, Jacob with Johnny sunglasses, like, I'm going to probably claim
this as a truth, and I'm going to have Johnny verify ZZ top probably would not endorse
those sunglasses with a Johnny.
I don't think so.
Uh oh, I think I stumped him on that one.
Yeah.
Those are not cheap sunglasses.
Are they?
Um, I mean, relative, they're mid, they're mid range mid range.
They're knockoffs.
So I know, but I'm saying Lupinatch, you mean, yeah, you don't, the ZZ's
top song, cheap sunglasses, Corey Hart, I wear my sunglasses at night and night.
It's night.
So if you I'm aligned with that, like, I don't, I'm not familiar with the ZZ top song.
I know the, is that the one I wear my sunglasses, that's Corey, that's Corey Hart, yeah.
And then you got the, you know, my future is so bright, I got to wear shades.
Well, that's the truth always, man.
Anyway, sorry, it's your show, man.
Hi, I need to remember that usually on this show, I come with like three total
questions and it takes 58 minutes to get through it.
So I need to stop asking ancillary questions and just get into the meat of our
topic.
Uh, Tim Johnny, when we think about education, we usually think about two types of
people, teachers and students.
Sure.
Now, today's guest, you guys have played both of these roles at different points in
their lives.
And we've talked about them both here on the show, but there's a third role in education
folks that doctors, Tim and Johnny have experienced.
And we're going to talk about that today.
Parents all the same, nomadic time, no place, they don't understand that us kids are going
to make some mistakes.
So do you have a kids all across the land, there's no need to argue, parents, just don't
understand.
That's right.
Uh, we're going to talk about parents today, oh boy, oh boy, yep.
Folks, you can't have a show about education without talking about parents.
So today, I want to start things off by asking you, fellas, this simple question.
And we'll start with Johnny, Johnny, what has the role of a parent in education meant
to you?
Oh, Jacob, you know, this is an interesting one, especially being an educator myself.
And then being like a teacher educator locally and, you know, someone who's pretty active
in the schools and, you know, done some work with the school board in the superintendent's
office.
So it's been, you know, sometimes a, uh, one of blurred lines because I think as a parent,
you, you know, you want to be involved, but you don't want to be over-involved.
And then when you wear many hats, like I'm wearing one of my camo hats today, but when
you play different roles in the community, I mean, for me, it's been one of not overstepping
too much because, you know, when you go into the school with a classroom and you're the
former teacher and teacher educator locally, you know, you don't want it to like be like,
hey, this guy comes in and demands, you know, we switch the curriculum or we change X, Y,
and Z.
So for me, it's been one of, you know, being involved, but not being over-involved,
like stepping back sometimes when, you know, the urges to kind of get right in there and
be like, well, you know, best practices for teaching math are, you know, the best way
to do reading groups really is, you know, I try not to, you know, I don't know, you
know, in the, in general life, they call that mansplaining, right?
I don't know what the, what the, what the term we did at the coin one, like educator
explaining, you know, or proffing, we call it that, like I try not to be the professor
in education in the schools, just be a parent, not be a former teacher, but I think that's
one that also has given me a lot of empathy and understanding for, you know, supporting
teachers when my kids come home and say, I got to stoop at home, mark the sign, and it's
like, well, you know, maybe it's not so stupid, or if it is, you know, biting my tongue
and being like, yeah, well, well, what do you think about that assignment? So it's been
one of being supportive of teachers, being involved in my kids education, but also, you
know, trying to step back and let other parents, you know, fit in and fill in and, and at times
it's meant being a substitute teacher in the schools, although my kids like have vetoed
that in recent years, it might, it might be coming back because there's always a high
need, and I love to teach. So if I can lend a hand and volunteer on those capacities,
it's been fun to be part of that. But otherwise, you know, it's the same as most parents out
there. I just try and, you know, be involved and follow the lead. I always approach it like
this. Again, I have some layers of experience on the teaching end of this, but, you know,
I always like to say, you know, like we're partnering here as educators in these kids lives.
So, you know, complimenting what's happening at school at home, you know, and not, and
trying not to undo or redo everything at home. It's like, I've learned, for a few early
years, the kids were homeschooled, and so that was always kind of an interesting and fun
thing too. But no, I mean, that's a complicated version of, you know, trying to not do too
much, but then not do too little. So fit in in between there where I can. Johnny, if you were
a parent wrestler, I think your name would be the flying buttress because you're on the outside,
but you're providing support for the structure there. And I think that's very good. And then I
can see that's why I got my, I got my inspiration as a young person in in Paris, admiring the,
the architecture of the Notre Dame. It came down to the gargoyle or the flying buttress. And
you frankly, you chose wrong, but we support your decisions. Yeah. Tim, same question to you.
What has the role of a parent in education meant to you?
You know what? Believe it or not, my sense is is that people would be like, I bet Tim's like,
like the teacher terror.
Is that what I'm talking about, man? You got to, you know, but, but actually, I do the same thing,
though, too, is is trying to provide support, um, interpretation. Um, you know, one of the things
my kids, I'm sure to tell you is, is that it's, it's not that they have, haven't heard me do a lot
of criticism of teaching and education. And therefore, they themselves, when they've been in school
and kind of come back and go, but dad, it was like you said the other night when you were talking
to Uncle Dave. And that's where I'm kind of like, oh, I'm like, man, I like, I, I don't want to dig
on the teacher, but, uh, boy, my kids kind of got me on that one. So, um, I've actually taken those
moments, too, where I'm just like, I really don't necessarily agree with what's going on.
And I've tried to help my son and daughter, um, over the time, actually then figure that out on
their own and give them strategies for how to go in and they themselves kind of address the
teacher, um, from a standpoint of, you know, what I was wondering about, can you help me explain,
would there be another possibility that maybe I could do something other than what you've assigned?
Um, the result of that is sometimes they are, you know, supported. Other times the teachers
like, no, and then they come home and go, dad, I need you to go in now. Um, and that's where it's just
like, you know, I kind of do what Johnny is there, too, is going, you know, what? No, you know, you,
you might have to live with this one, but it doesn't mean you're wrong. And I think that's it.
It's just like, okay, you got to hold that and realize that what you has, as my son or as my
daughter and what we talk about what we understand is is, you know, typically we're advocating for
the absolute best all the time. And the reality is is that no single teacher can ever do that.
And sometimes, you know, we all run into that position. And so as a teacher, um, you know,
I've dealt with the parent to come in and say, Tim, we hate what you're doing in the classroom
with this book parade type of stupid book report where he's got to decorate a wagon and then
bring it in. And it's just like, we don't have time for that crap. And you know what? At the time,
I was like, but it's the most awesome activity ever. But I will say as a parent now, too,
I'm going, man, I hate those assignments, man, because you know, I know what that father was saying.
I didn't have kids at that time, but what that father was saying is, you just gave me a big homework
assignment. Um, so I, I don't know, put it, maybe put it that way, but it, it, it, it is an
interesting kind of sometimes, you know, holding your tongue. And then other times, you know,
supporting your child in a way that actually empowers them how to bring issues like this forward
in a way that is isn't confrontational, but really is from a problem solving standpoint.
And then also then sometimes just kind of going like, Hey, you know what? Sometimes you've got to
accept the way it is. And you got to move forward. So, um, I don't know, it's either a wishy
washy answer or truthful. So Johnny's sort of the Rick Flair of parents. And Tim, you're kind of
the George W. Bush of parents. I'm sure you appreciate that comparison. But what I mean by that is,
we all remember when George Bush stopped being president. He said, you know, being president's
really hard. So I'm not going to criticize any other presidents after me. And he's sort of stuck
to that. So I see that in you where you're like, Hey, you teach us pretty hard. I'm not going to
kind of add to the trouble by picking everything and trying to get in on that problem. I look, okay,
I, I'm sure. Um, I don't know that I've ever been, you know, side by side with George W. Bush
because, well, I love it though. In a very positive way, though, Tim. You know what, though,
give me a pair of jeans and a chainsaw. And I'll get down in that ditch and cut some wood just
like George W did. All right. That'll be at the, uh, busted pencils meet up. That
at Crawford. We're going to have great time. Uh, but Tim, you broached something that I also
wanted to talk about. And you guys maybe can have a dialogue back and forth on this. But
if you're a parent and you have a concern about your child's education, whether it's something like,
oh, I didn't, this assignment seemed weird or I thought my kid was, oh, they're being unfair
or whatever it is. There's any number of things that come up where you might have a disagreement
with a parent and a teacher. What is the right way to deal with that problem? How do you talk to
a teacher about it? I mean, what do you do to be constructive and appropriate in dealing
when those frictions come up? Hmm, hmm. Um, let me, I'll give you a scratching your heads
literally right now. By the way, so is that a really hard question? Well, no, I just, I shaved my
head. Good one. I shaved my head this morning and I got a little stubble coming in and I was
just kind of feeling it. Um, I'll give you an example that I think was very kind of like,
okay, both, both ways. My, my son came home with a writing assignment with a lot of red marks on
it. And he was in very disappointed because he felt that he had worked really hard at putting
together this essay, this essay was, um, and this is fifth grade, um, you know, so they were
teaching him how to write a paragraph, um, not the five paragraph essay. Fifth grade, you learned
to write the paragraph, which will later then be added for more to make the five paragraph essay.
But this is the paragraph. And, um, he was upset because he started his paragraph with
woohoo exclamation point. Um, and, and Johnny's heard this story. And you know, I, I kind of was like,
yeah, I get it. And there were some things going on. And I said, so why don't we go in and,
and meet with your teacher? And, and I said, you know, when we get there, I'm going to have you
Luke explain to her what it is that you feel is incorrect about the way she graded your paper.
And, um, we came in and, um, you know, I said, I'm not going to say the teacher's name, but misses,
so and so, um, Luke wanted to ask you a question about this paper. And boy, though,
boy, things moved quickly. She was like, wait, wait, no, Luke, are we talking about that paper?
Oh, yeah, yeah. Uh, Luke, go ahead, read your paragraph. And Luke, you know, kind of like woohoo.
Let me tell you about my best vacation with my family. Look, tell your parents what's wrong with that
opening. Woohoo is not a sentence. And I didn't repeat back the prompt in the form of a sentence to
begin the paragraph. And she went, see, he knew how to do the assignment the right way.
He decided to not do it the right way. And that's when I actually my wife gave her kind of
brustled up and went, but he showed excitement and really enjoyed, well, Tim and Michelle,
if he does that on the no child left behind Pennsylvania state system of assessment test,
he's going to get a failing grade. And that's going to make the classroom and the school look bad.
So he needs to learn how to write for the test. And that led to us going, okay, great. Um, he won't
be taking the test then. And so there began the opt out movement. So I, you know, that's an example
of kind of going in with the intentions to say, Luke, we're going to have a discussion. And then
watching it go south pretty quickly. And, um, you know, I, I don't know if that's an illustration of
good or bad behavior, but it's, it's an illustration of a reality that actually happened.
I think that did not go well. Yeah, because your story ends with a revolution you started. Yeah,
because the system wasn't working. Yeah. I would say Tim, I, I, I'm much more of the, um,
the, I, here's how I approach it. And I, and I tell teachers this that I'm working with that
are becoming teachers. And, you know, I don't have to spell it out and say it to my kids' teachers,
but I, I say, like, it's kind of like, it's a branch of parenting. It's like co-parenting and it's
like your adults with it with an interest, the shared interest in this young person. So, um,
I'm big on team sports, you know, coach of a hockey team and we're a unified front. And when I,
when I meet early with teachers, kind of figure out, okay, what's the plan? And, uh, and so I,
I tend to ally more with the teachers at first until I have more information, uh, you know,
because you're both right in my assessment on the outside, like, the teacher's not wrong.
And you and Michelle aren't wrong, right? Like, yes, you want, you're supposed to be excited
about writing. And he started a paragraph with one word in an exclamation point, um, which even
as an editor now, I have to like reach out to authors and say, like, you can't, you can't start
your article this way. Like, like, you could, you can show excitement in all other forms.
And so there's a learning kind of moment in both. So I tend to, you know, take the approach of,
like, hey, we're on, we're in, we're in this together. Um, you know, and then when, when we're not
agreeing, you know, kind of like in teams, like if the coaching staff's not quite
integrated agreement or, you know, internally, the grownups need to figure out some things and
gather some more information, you know, before they, before trickles down, are you, you, you,
yeah, end up on a, uh, kind of a, uh, what comes next? Uh, but I'm always a big one, Jacob, uh,
with it. If you do have one of those issues, like, Tim came up with, like, like he said, like,
have a conversation, there should always be an open kind of door between, you know, teachers and
listen. And if you're a parent out there listening, like, go to the teacher, like, uh, every teacher
I've ever met, like, even when we, when we bemoan about like, oh, man, parents, oh, trees,
you know, it's just sometimes we grumble about it. But, but when it comes down to it, that's
ideal for you to go to the parent. Don't run the Facebook and make a post about it. You know,
don't take it to social media, you know, have a little filter system as a grownup where you take
in, uh, get information, get your kids story, right? You want to hear like, you know, what's their
experience? Like Tim and Michelle both understood their son was excited. And that's why he wanted to
start his essay. And they also knew, like, he knew the right answer. So they're not like, well,
to, you know, you know, son, you need to learn to write a sentence. They know he knows how to write a
sentence. So they're gathering information from the, from their students, you know, your child's
perspective. Um, and then we take the time, like Tim and Michelle did to get the information from
the teacher, like, hey, when we have a meeting, when you have sometimes we talk about assignment,
you know, I just want to learn more about how to support, you know, my child in the classroom.
And, uh, and I've yet to be that teacher or meet a teacher who's like, no, we're not meeting.
You know, we're not going to talk about this because you're coming together to kind of, you know,
co-invest in the development of this young person. And then kind of gather the information. And
again, I'll say just like breathe and figure out how to support your child, like Tim and Michelle
did, like, they didn't say, son, you're wrong, right? They're like, okay, this is life. You're
going to have to learn sometimes that there are rules about things you need to know how to do.
And, you know, your teacher is responsible for making sure you know how to do them. Now,
sometimes we know as your parent that you can do that and that you were excited to do it differently.
We're going to support you when you make those choices too. Uh, but in a sense, for me, the way I
approach it is like both can be right. Um, and those are on sort of the middle ground things.
I'm not saying like I've fortunately not been in this situation, but I've talked to friends
who are parents, the kids who, you know, their kids are experiencing something that no child should
ever experience. And there are times when teachers can be wrong. And I think the best way to
approach that is also to have a conversation with the teacher to better understand the intent,
to better understand like what's going on. Because if if that's the case, then, you know, you,
you do need to take action to, you know, not only believe your kid, but advocate for them in those
cases where they may be, you know, wronged in school. Uh, but more often than not, I would say like 99
out of 100 times, you know, it's just one of those instances where like the teacher is going to,
you know, it's going to improve things to have that conversation and better understand
how both parties can support going forward. Wow. I'm not sure if I got handed my butt on that one
or John, okay, so here's my, he's like, this is why my kids aren't taking time. You know, okay,
though, here's a, I just thought of this though as we were going through that. Um, had that teacher
not stood her ground. There would be no busted pencils. There you go, man. So there you go, right?
I'm sure she went straight from teaching paragraphs to teaching the butterfly effect
because you never know what's going to come of these things.
So, um, yeah, but no, it's Jacob's got a good point. I know a lot of, I have a lot of, like,
Tim, you and I as educators, as teacher educators, as people in schools, you're familiar with
this process of like having these conversations, of having meetings, of teachers wanting to
assume best. I think that's a good equality to have in life, right? Like assume best, like the
intent is that we're co-investing in young people learning. And so we can have a, but that's
because we're culturally familiar with how schools work, right? So a lot of, I love that question,
Jacob, because of the dirt listeners out there. Well, maybe you're listening to busted pencils.
You're also an educator. So you're, you're like in our club, but the, but the idea is like a lot of
people I talked to with are like a hockey game, you know, in the lock of room with the guys or,
you know, out on the golf course, you know, I'll get a question like, hey, this is happening in my,
my daughter's class. What would you do? And most often I say, hey, you and your partner go sit
down with the teacher, like say, hey, let's talk because we're co-invested in this young person.
You know, I said, you know, lead with good intentions, like assume good intentions.
That helps set, you know, I'm also like relentless positivity guy. That's my coaching strategy.
So I'm also like, hey, when I go in and talk to a teacher like, hey, I'm assuming, you know,
we both really care a lot about my daughter or my son, right? And they're gonna say, yeah, of course,
of course, like, okay, so now I'm setting the table for a good productive conversation.
But listener out there, that's an important question that Jacob asks. It's an easy one for Tim and I,
because we've done it probably a hundred times, right? But the idea of being like, not everybody knows
that's how it works or it can work, right? That's why I said, don't go to Facebook and vent,
right? Don't go like, don't take it to that level, right? Don't take it, I say, carrying out,
like five minutes after your like 11 year old tells you the business of what's happening in school.
I'm not saying don't believe your 11 year old, but like take in information, give it some space.
And yeah, it's not always second nature to every parent out there that like part of this is your,
like you're, you're, you're, you're kind of invited to have conversations with your kids' teacher.
Johnny, I would, yeah, that advice too from, from the standpoint of going, you know, um, because I've
talked, you know, some parents are like, ah, man, I don't want to talk to the teacher. You know,
they're, because you said, they're not teachers. They, they weren't in it. Their, their last
experience with teachers was, you know, as themselves as a student. And they're kind of going in there.
And I'm, you know, slightly intimidated even sometimes. Exactly. You know, and, and I would say
for the parent, the advice is to go, hey, you know, what being on the teacher side of that,
those times with experiences with parents, I'm also kind of, you know, nervous, worried.
And, and so think about that. It's two people kind of coming together. And as Johnny said,
to discuss the importance of how to best support from the teacher standpoint,
a student in front of them. And from the parent, their child. And so together,
you know, this is where you can really make some real magic happen. And so that, you know, yeah.
And you can learn a lot. Like every teacher out there who's done this knows like, you learn
different dimensions to a kid, right? Uh, you know, because you have now a different set of
eyes who spends time with this young person outside of school, who could say things like,
you know, Tim and Michelle were like, my son can write a sentence. You know, he was really excited.
Like you kind of help co-learn more about the student. And it really adds a teacher from the
teacher. And it helps the educator better understand how to be a better teacher for that student
when those meetings happen. Tim, you're talking about the flip side of that. And that's my last
regulation question here. Okay. For the previous choice show. Um, I want to ask you guys,
because I'm thinking about if I was a new teacher, one of the things that would really kind of
make me nervous or anxious is how you handle the other side of that situation. I mean, if you're a
teacher and you have issues with a parent and it can be, it could be from serious things like you
think there's trouble at home or to more simple things like, Hey, I send these notes back and I
kind of get blown off by the parent. How do you handle that? What advice do you have for teachers
when dealing with issues with a student's parent in your class? Well, you just gave, you know,
the kind of the I the spectrum of interactions that you can have with a parent from, you know,
very supportive, very irate. Um, also sometimes not really sure of exactly what's happening. And as a
teacher, I think your best bet is to kind of assume a stance of saying, you know, my goal here is
going to be to come out of this conversation, this interaction with, you know, hopefully agreeing
on going forward with some kind of a pathway that's best. And that may even mean some kind of
be willing to compromise, move a little. And I think, you know, said this is to really hear a
parent and to kind of see it as an opportunity to learn something about that child that you maybe
didn't know because guess what? You probably didn't. And that is, and there's a humbleness. And then
here's yet, you know, and with an irate parent, you know, hold calm. Don't lose it. Take a deep breath.
Let them vent. Say that's noted. And, you know, potentially even say, Hey, I appreciate
be hard to say. I appreciate what you're saying. In fact, though, I think maybe at this point,
you know, let's go down and you can talk to the principal because I think at this point,
you need to meet with with the principal because there's something I can do. So, yeah, you know,
there's some similar Jacob, I think you're asking this for like the teacher, like from the teacher
perspective, I'll kind of give both both ends of it, you know, sometimes as parents, we're just
really busy. And some parents more busy than others. And so, you know, if you reach out and like
maybe that from the teacher end, you want, you know, we're saying ideally have these conversations
and, you know, work together, there's a balance. You don't want to do it too often. You don't want
to only do it when there's a problem, but you don't want to all the time require, I mean, parents
have to go to jobs. They have, there's a reason they're not school teachers, right? They're going
somewhere to do what they're, so you kind of don't want to be overly relying on parent involvement,
but you want some. And we're saying parent, parent, parent, I would like extend that out there that
kind of the goal, whether it's your school administrator, your school council, like the team of
adults who are investing in that young person's development, the goal is to have some representative
from that child's life outside of school as part of things too. It could be a grandparent,
it could be, you know, an aunt, an uncle, an older sibling, a godparent, there's all kinds of
ways sometimes you have to learn and ask like, hey, you know, who's your go-to? Like who's helping
you outside of school? And not everybody has that help. So that's another good like way we learn
about the lives our kids are living. Maybe they are, you know, strongly recommended to our counselor
to get them, you know, connected to like big brothers and big sisters programs in different ways,
you know, after school programs where they can get some homework support or meet with, you know,
a lot of different programs in our schools that help kids, you know, with homework or become
advocates for their advocate education or another teacher. I've been in those boats where I say,
hey, you know, I noticed like you, what, what, like, who can I talk to in this school to better
learn about how to teach you, right? And they'll say, oh, miss so-and-so, that's my favorite teacher,
like, okay, great. You know, we're just looking for that adult who also helps advocate for a child's
education. But Tim hit the nail on the head, you know, sometimes people come in a little bit heavy,
like, ah, I got this big problem or anything. My advice to new teachers, especially, but all
veteran teachers too, just reaffirming what they probably already do and know is you're not alone,
and you're not in your classroom, and you're not going to be able to solve necessarily an angry
parent. So if you do have that kind of escalated thing, you know, I would say like Tim mentioned
at the end of his response, right, involve your principal from go. And in fact, if you were at, like,
Jacob, you said you might reach out as a teacher and not hear anything. Well, that's kind of,
like, usually a green light to the educator to reach out to school counselor and to the principal
and like other teachers and say, hey, you know, I noticed so-and-so, you know, I've reached out and
I haven't really heard anything. What are your experiences? What are your, you know, and every school
leader I know, their goal is to also make sure that there's good communication between whoever's
advocating and part of a child's learning outside of school is also, you know, in some
communication with the folks in school. So the principals and, you know, school counselors and
leadership teams in every school, you know, they have a protocol and a familiarity with, okay,
I think we're going to call together a meeting. So maybe too many meetings isn't working, but one
good check-in, where we can kind of figure some of these things out altogether. So you're not
a lone teacher out there, where, you know, it's a tall ask to say, well, parent involvement or,
you know, outside of school involvement is ideal. And every teacher's like, yeah, good luck,
because like Tim said, you get a wide array. And I would encourage you not to, like, it's hard
to do. Tim's going to agree with me on this probably. It's hard as a teacher, you know, not to move
to judgment quickly in that, right? Try and just stay understanding and gathering information,
right? Because you never know. Maybe someone's working for jobs. That's not uncommon these days,
right? Maybe there's a lot, like, time is really, really hard to free up, right? And so, you know,
there are a lot of factors. Maybe somebody doesn't quite speak English that good, and they're,
you know, not, you know, they're not as comfortable having those meetings or, you know,
go into those spaces. Maybe their citizenship is precarious and coming to the school is actually
dangerous to their family. So just be patient, hold an open mind, right? And invite involvement,
but work with your school team to learn about and gather information about, hey, who are the folks
that come together to support these young people who are investing in? So Tim, you said something
very similar to a lot of what Johnny said. The idea that you go into these meetings with parents
or these interactions with parents, and you keep in mind that you have this common goal,
you want to do right by their kid, you want to help them get a good education. But at some point,
sometimes there are situations where you've got 20 to 30 kids, that means you've got 40 to 60
parents, and it runs the gambit, all sorts of different people. And sometimes a situation gets
to a point where it might be not something you can fix yourself. I want to ask you guys this question,
and I know we've been here for a long time, but if, and I know there's, it's a diverse question,
because it's different in every situation. But if you're, say you're a 24-year-old woman in
New York, you just graduated with your educators degree in your license and you're applying an
Oklahoma to become a teacher. And you just finished taking your loyalty test to make sure you can
get that job. And you're nervous about these interactions you'll have with parents. What do you
guys think? A fair rule of thumb is to say, okay, at what point do I need to talk to my wider team?
Get the principal involved or my counselor. What is that point? What does that look like after
the initial attempts? If we're talking about the New York teacher going to Oklahoma, I'm like,
don't talk to your principal. You need to go right to the state superintendent for all issues,
you know what? I would answer that with this kind of, it's more of
have that conversation with your principal, the counselor, the support people in your building,
to kind of ask and say, you know, is there a threshold where you would like to see your teachers
say, hey, you know, right now we're discussing something that I need to move to my principal,
to the school guidance counselor. Because I think that also is, is because sometimes those,
you know, mentors, support staff or supervisors can have a real clarity of saying like, look,
when it gets to this point, this is when you need to disengage and, you know, calmly and gently
invite the parent to, you know, move up the ladder. Because I don't know when you get there,
what I would say is is when you are really starting to feel uncomfortable, or if you really think
the meeting is not productive, and you know, hold tight, keep your cool, and be okay. This is what I
would say, be okay with not being able to be the one to figure out the right way forward. Be okay
with saying, you know what, I don't think we're able to get to an understanding here. I think
maybe this would be good if maybe me and our principal had a conversation. And that would be
as to think, because, you know, don't feel like you're in there and going like, I'm on this
on my own and I got to get this, you know, ask for support. Maybe the other thing too is kind of
stop the conference right at that moment and walk out and see if there's another teacher colleague
in there that, you know, can maybe come in. And again, not to present as a ganging up situation on
the parent, but to potentially offer someone to listen to that parent, who they, even your colleague,
might have a different way of helping interpret what's going on. So I think I really love about
that, Tim, is the idea that rather than waiting until you get to whatever threshold you think you
might need to start having these conversations, just start off with, hey, I've talked to my team,
I know when they think I should talk to them or what we're doing, what our principal thinks,
get the team involved from the beginning, not, you know, they don't have to be directly involved
with the parent, but have dialogue, talk to the people you work with. I do like that aspect of
it. And I think that's a good thing for young teachers who might be intimidated to keep in mind,
it's okay to ask those questions and kind of talk to people on your team there. Johnny, what are your
thoughts? Oh, man. I mean, I just think it's always, I mean, I think we're getting into this in
a way where it's just like, have some humility, have some, you know, have some shared responsibility
that's like you said, we're just going to be done differently. It's not going to be done perfectly,
like no one's the perfect parent, no one's the perfect teacher, but you come together to do the best
you can and you bring in expertise. And that's something, too, I always like to remind folks
going into this is, you know, teachers aren't necessarily expert parents. I mean, especially when
we're young, we haven't even had kids, especially when we're not parents. So, so like going and
know like they might be, they're going to be highly knowledgeable and maybe like child development
or like, you know, particular strategies for teaching kids skills, but you also know your kids the
best, right? So I love that, you know, that always that constant reminder to go in and share
sort of co-investment, co-responsibility and bring your strengths, you know, to the to what kids
are going to get by being in school all this time and then how it's supported outside of school
and how all the way around these kids are experiencing great upcoming, you know, upbringing. So,
you know, that's me. I'm a, you know, I'm an optimist, though. I know it's much harder. It's easier for
me to say than it is to do. It's complicated and it's cumbersome, but it's all about community. We
talk about public schools being the better off of democracy. Democracy is tough. Democracy is messy.
Democracy is relational. It's about having conversations. It's about coming together. So the more our
schools can be those spaces, the easier and more familiar we are with talking with one another,
with support one another. I mean, that's along me on the soapbox too, but it doesn't help
that constantly in the media. You know, that liberal media, as I sound like, you know,
one of those ultra-left wingers, which I probably am, but, you know, I like to pick on them too.
But, you know, don't, don't buy into like the teachers are enemies. You know, most teachers
are not set up to like think you're wrong as a parent. So your instinct is value. Your input
is valued. I'm insane with kids. They have a voice and their experience matters, right? And if
a teacher is an on board with that, let the principal figure that stuff out, you know, but start
with the teacher because most of us, that's what we came to do this, you know, for, to work together
to invest in young people. Tim, get choked up. That's a emotional topic for me. I know that
underneath those sunglasses, your eyes are welling up. I understand. That's why you're in, man.
Cry, it's a special thing, man. I got it, kids, whether they're in your classroom or in your home.
I've got you. Dr. Johnny, Dr. Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've asked all
of my primary questions. But as you may have heard, if you've seen the show before, I don't know,
if you guys are familiar with the producer's show show, but I like to do one final question
at the end of the show. And this week, guys, let's go. I'm going to give you guys a soapbox,
Johnny Lupinacci. You're a parent and a teacher. Can you shout out your kids for us, please?
Don't yell at them. I mean, say something nice about them. This is what I'm trying to say.
Oh, man, I'm lucky. I know you like them. Yeah, I do. I like them most of the time. You know,
I got two great kids, daughters. I don't talk a lot about on here because I'm a pretty private guy,
but they're pretty amazing students, great learners, great kids, you know, one starting high school
this year, and then the other ones going into fourth grade. And, you know, they couldn't be more
different than their dad's experience in school. And that's always, that's always quite a blessing
because conferences, I hear wonderful things about them. And I always tell them stories, they know,
when I would have conferences coming up, I knew the next three months, I was going to be in a
lot of trouble. So we're all the difference of, you know, their experience in school. And they've
had some really amazing teachers. So they've been really lucky, too. So, you know, we're just,
we're happy to keep being a part of this. So overall thumbs up or thumbs down,
your fan of, I mean, most of the time thumbs up. Okay, that's, I'm glad to hear that. And
same question you Tim, it's not a really a question. It's just an opportunity to say nice things
about your children. Well, you know, here's the thing. Luke, man, woohoo, dude, and fifth grade.
Now, 26 years old, living in Michigan, great kid, probably one of the most gentle,
but yet compassionate and, and just, you know, great trustworthy kid. And despite the fact that he
had to deal with a dad who sometimes was a little bit more onry. In those frames, but, you know,
great kid. And then Lacey, you know, hey, guess what? In fifth grade, she went to the school board
in the school. She was in and actually advocated to have high stakes tests thrown out. Did that
at a public meeting. So again, a great advocate herself. And, but, but, but two kids who really
continue to just be amazing people as they are now young adults. So, um, I don't know,
their mother did something right. Well, Tim, Johnny, thank you so much for being here. Woohoo
indeed. And Tim, I believe we've got time for one last thing. Well, now it's time for your moment
of Zen. Now, go out and get yourself some big black frames with the class so dark. They don't
even know your name and the choices up to you because they come in two classes, rhinestone shades
or cheap sunglasses. Oh, wait, that was easy top. Zen. Oh, Howard's in. I suppose that it might be
considered an unprofessional thing for a historian to write a history that somebody else interprets
as a call to action. But to me, the historian is a citizen before he is a historian.
Hey, thanks for listening to Tim share lyrics and drop wisdom from Howard's in. But especially
thank you for, you know, downloading and listening to this episode, busted pencils, Jacob producers
choice. Remember to grab a great podcast that are back full of all kinds of busted pencils
content on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or of course, you can always get it at the civic media website
or at busted pencils.com. Hey, and don't you dare next week be late for home room on Monday and
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