Hey, welcome to Busted Pencils, fully-ledged education talk, educated educators, talking education,
classes in session, it's midweek, and Jacob, it actually is pretty close to class being in session
for most teachers and kids around the country. In fact, some young ones have already returned to
classrooms as early as last week in some districts and, you know, but I'm pretty sure
over there for local listeners and civic media, things don't quite start up for the kids
till closer to then in the month or maybe the very beginning of September. But teachers certainly
are beginning to report to classrooms, you know, to clock in for their pre-fall professional
developments and all the exciting ways that they gear up for the youngins to enter their classroom.
But Jacob, we're in it now. I think we're coming out of the what I call the off-season and into the,
you know, the pre-season or the season if you're out there already in a classroom. We love you.
But tonight, Jacob, you know, I'm busted pencils. We're talking about what it really takes
to rebuild public education. I mean, we're always kind of talking about that, but this is one
of those exciting days where we got a guest. And especially when we talk Jacob on here and
pencil busters out there listening, we talk a lot about rural schools and urban schools and we've
mentioned a couple weeks ago about how much we can all learn from our rural districts. They've
navigated a unique set of challenges for decades in this country and they're at the forefront.
I would say of implementing change. They've had to really learn to do things differently
often on the fly. I talked to a local rural superintendent a couple weeks ago and he said,
well, Johnny, for years, we've been having to sort of figure out sometimes how to land a plane
that's already in the air while we're building it. He's like, so when a curve ball gets thrown
our way, we're all hands on deck in our district in a unique way that sometimes helps us figure
things out a little differently than other districts. Maybe big suburban districts or large urban
districts don't have that closeness or don't have that utility purpose that so many people in a
district play. Well, instead of me just rambling on about about rural school districts, we got a
guest, Jacob. We got a superintendent of Aliva strum school district in western Wisconsin,
Cory Koolig here with us. Tim has been texting me all day about how excited he is to have him on
because he's a visionary co-founder of you might remember listener when superintendent Mike Bigley
was on and he was talking about liftoffs. Well, Cory is going to talk a little bit about all that
exciting stuff with us here tonight as well. So from bold experimentation to AI-powered learning
tools, liftoffs and all the stuff that they're doing there with Cory is providing rural schools
as leaders in a way of future ready learners. So Cory, welcome to the show. Thanks for busting pencils
with us today. How you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Was that intro long enough or
do you want us to maybe do some more because we can add a couple more minutes to. Hey, just for our
listeners out there, Tim can't be here this afternoon. The last minute meeting he got called into,
but he sent me the intro and I cut it down on the fly. Probably why it's as choppy as it is because
I'm trying to clear. I'm like, this is like a eight minute intro. So I think I made it a 12 minute
intro, cutting it down. But let's just get into it, Cory. Can you tell us a little bit about your
story? Kind of take us back to the beginning, especially in relationship to liftoffs. So tell us
a little bit more about you and about liftoffs. Well, I've been an education now. This is my 24th
year. And in the last, this is my eighth year as superintendent prior to that, I spent 10 years in
the principal ship. And so I have that opportunity to see a lot of things, you know, a lot of things
evolve as as we go through the years, you know, all the initiatives that have come and passed. And
for the first time, I guess in my career, I feel energized and excited about something that
actually kind of makes sense and using an AI powered. I mean, we talked about differentiated
instruction for so long through the years and tried to figure out ways to do this exhaustive
ways to do this for teachers and classrooms. Now we finally have a tool that can make that happen.
So it's, you know, as a leader, I think it's my job to look forward into the future, you know,
looking at things that we do from an education perspective, we have to think differently. We have
do things differently if we expect different results. And that's what liftoff says. It's a bold
implementation of a new model that we're finding really good success with early on.
Oh, I love that, Corey. Hey, just for our listeners, because this is Lingo that probably a lot of
listeners out there are familiar with, but some might be, you know what, I'm not really sure,
differentiated instruction. And Corey, you're well positioned for this. Can you kind of just give a
general base description of what is different differentiated instruction? And then, and then from
your perspective, because I was right there with the teaching, trying so hard to implement differentiated
instruction. And it's really great. And why it's so great, we'll get to in a minute, but it's
really, really labor, like heavy labor lives, like not even like, hey, this is like teachers,
just not wanting to work hard, like to do it really well is nearly impossible in some context,
like you can. But let's get into, can you describe, Corey, what is differentiated instruction?
Just a ground level. Yeah, you have kids all across the board in terms of their abilities,
their skill gaps, their levels of knowledge, their abilities. And as a teacher, you've got to
try to meet all of those different ability levels. And, you know, one teacher, even with a teacher's
aid or instructional coach or whomever you have in the building or in the classroom, you have,
you know, 20 or 25 kids in the classroom, you have kids at the 15th percentile, but you also have
kids at the 95th percentile, everything in between. And to try to develop a teacher-led lesson,
that's going to fit what those students need, what every student needs is virtually impossible.
And like you said, it's labor-intensive to try to do it. It's exhausting work.
Teachers are working harder than they've ever worked, and not seeing that those results. So,
we're thinking of ways to use personalized instruction approach, AI-powered personalized
instruction. So, kids can get what they need when they need it, and they're not waiting for the
teacher to spoon feed that next layer of content to them. All while the teacher is able to
provide those interventions in real time during the core instructional period. So, students,
you can do it in less time. You can do it in a more appropriate manner. You know, kids, if they're
not a math student, they don't want to spend more time in math. They don't want to get pulled out
of the classes they want to be in to take more math. They want to be able to get what they need when
they need it. So, that's really what it is in a nutshell. And, you know, for the first time,
we're able to try to deliver that more effectively. Yeah, Cory, that's great. And then just for our
listeners out there, you might be like me, you know, Tim's usually here. He's a champion of AI.
I'm sort of the anti AI guy, but I've come a long way in the last couple of years.
And mostly because of the kind of thing Cory's talking about, like even myself as a teacher working
with teachers, being in school districts and in school conversations where we're looking at
how is AI a tool in the classroom that enhances the learning experience that makes teaching better.
So, Cory, but when I first hear it, some of my colleagues are still stuck there. They're like,
hey, this is just trying to put kids in front of a computer or hand them a laptop and, you know,
and not engage or or replace teachers. I know it's not true, but can you dispel that myth,
maybe just describe for the naysayer out there? What this looks like? Like you hear AI, you think,
robot teacher. Yeah, it doesn't replace the teacher. The role of the teacher is never more important
than it is in this personalized learning model because the teacher's not standing and delivering
a set set of instructional things. They are going around, you know, learning what students know.
They are working with students in small groups all while other students are continuing to learn.
So, we're using, you know, the teacher as what they're designed to do, the art of teaching,
to get to know their students at a personal level, see firsthand what they're capable of doing
because they're learning and they're showing them. And it's not just sit behind the computer,
it's anything but that. We use vertical learning kids are out of their chairs. They are at a
board. They have different tasks. They change, they change roles within those. So, it's anything but
standing or just sitting in front of a computer. You know, there are certain times when that will
happen, but it's that's certainly not what we're hoping to do here. Cory, if I can ask you a question.
Oh, yeah, go ahead, Jacob. Coming off what you're talking about and you've gotten into it a little
bit, but let's say that I'm the new student transferring into this district. What do I notice
as a student is different about the way you guys do things? Well, you're going to notice that
you're working with all of your classmates. Teachers aren't assigning groups. You know,
you might work with one group one day. The next day you're working with a different group. The
the one day you might be the recorder. The next thing you might be the the person that explains
it to the teacher as the teacher is moving across the classroom. The next day you're the thinker.
You're always changing roles and that's one of the things kids tell us. They love working with
all of their classmates. They love being out of their desks. They love having different roles.
They love having to explain their answers to the teacher. Having the teacher ask follow-up
questions. You know, greater depth of knowledge type type questions to challenges they're thinking.
So that's that's what you're going to see and it's the time goes by faster. Kids are engaged.
Engagement rises. Discipline disappears and kids really have gravitated to that model.
That's that's amazing to hear and it all makes sense, Cory, because these are all things we know
as teachers and as school leaders out there that are sort of like hindrances in the process, right?
When school starts to be more about compliance and less about engagement. When we're as teachers,
you know, constantly doing little disciplinary things all over rather than have, you know, a good
flow to the whole experience that kids are engaged in. Like you said, they want to be there. They're
enjoying that human connection about stuff, which we think about especially middle school and
high school learners. Like their social groups are really important. We can argue that all the way
down, you know, but especially in middle school and high school, I was a math teacher for years and
I would always joke, but it's true. I would teach, you know, eight different ways to do a problem.
And, you know, like certain students say, I still don't get it. I don't get it. You know,
talk to your friends. We'd always have like a little session like talk to your friends. You could
teach somebody you can, you know, do five less problems on the next sheet. We'd do if you show
someone how you solved that equation. So I'd hear students say exactly the same way I'd explained it
maybe a handful of times. Boom, it clicked. Right. So yeah, the best way for students to learn
from each other. Yeah. If the teacher is in a classroom and they are, if they are sitting
idly watching this unfold, which I have, I've been in those classrooms. I've seen it. And in 24
years of education, it's some of the most impactful and magical things that I've seen is where
kids are without prompting from the teacher, assisting other students, helping them see it from
a different lens. And you're exactly right. Students learn better from each other than they do
from the teacher in many cases. And this gives the teacher an opportunity. It sounds like to sort of
facilitate that process to really focus on that, that, that role of being a teacher, like to really
kind of have that super tool that helps them differentiate the curriculum, the instruction,
have those personalized plans. And, you know, and keep up because even the best, very best teachers,
we've talked about it on here, Jacob. You can remember some of the shows and listeners. I'm sure
you've heard it many times. Like we learn to teach in a way where we can't sustain it. We can have
like two or three years of doing it at our very, very best. And still we're hard on hard on ourselves
because we know we could do better. But, you know, the, the, the shift and the change of labor
that kind of helps teachers reach these diverse needs that all students have that help us,
you'll focus on that human connection. You know, I think it's an exciting moment. So, Cory,
I'm going to come back to this for you because you mentioned something that, you know,
it's really powerful to me as a fellow educator. I'm 25 years now into my career and did different
things. Classroom teaching, you know, school leadership and did teaching teachers now and research
and higher ed and being part of bus depensals. But the, that's a powerful statement that this is
one of the things that are that you're most excited about over the course of your career.
So, I want to come back to that and talk a little bit about, you know, what about
the moment that we're in right now, this particular group, this community that you're in,
what's happened in there that that you could put a statement like that out there. And then we're
going to go into kind of, Cory, I want to hear from you the kind of the few where you think
things are headed because this is, this is truly an exciting moment.
Well, every time you give it an opportunity, you have to, you have to take that opportunity.
And I see a golden opportunity right in front of us. You know, with the AI, it's just the tool.
I mean, AI is just a, it's just a tool that we're using. It's, it's not replacing the teacher,
it's not changing necessarily what we're doing. It's giving us more power through a tool.
And really, this is all about personalized learning. This is about creating an approach that kids
can move at their own pace that they can learn in different styles, different methods.
They can be challenged in different ways. You know, as we look at the future of education,
you know, we haven't changed anything. I mean, it's for so long, we've added things, we've tried,
we've dabbled, we've had initiatives, we've done this, we thought one-to-one computing was going
to be this magic bullet. It's just a tool like anything else. It's a tool. It's a method, you know,
just like the internet change education. But when we talk about what this is capable of,
this is capable of increasing student engagement. And one of the biggest detractors from
education is, it's just disciplined and disengagement from students in the classroom.
And when that happens, it's really difficult when you have a student that's disengaged,
no matter how talented they are, to get them to achieve to their potential. So our goal is to
keep them engaged throughout by giving them continual tasks that they can feel
value in, that they can feel like they're a part of.
The thing that really excites me about what you're telling me, Cory, is that when I think back to
being a student myself, and I think about, well, what did I not like about school? And it's the sense
of it being boring, we're doing the same thing all the time, it's repetitive, but your vision
seems to be about dynamism, doing new things, giving students opportunities to try things to
learn in that way. I really think you're onto something there. Can you talk a bit more about that
and where you see that going and how that helps kids? We've all been in classrooms where you're
done with whatever task was assigned and the teacher, don't go, don't work ahead, just wait
for everyone else to be finished. And what happens at that particular moment when you're a kid
that's easily distracted, once you're distracted, it's difficult to get back into that flow.
When you're going, you want to keep going, right? I mean, still to this day, when I'm on a
roll with something, I don't like to be interrupted, I don't like to have to stop and wait for something,
I want to keep going. And that's what we're allowing kids to do, but also what you want to be
challenged. And you want to use that critical thinking, those critical thinking skills, you want to
be innovative, you want to do tasks that are meaningful. I mean, whether you're learning about
something that's math driven, concept that's math driven, how do you apply that to things that are
in this room, that are in your school? And if you can show kids those examples and challenge them with
different challenge-based things and project-based things, they don't even know they're learning.
They're just doing it and they're engaged and they're leaning in and they want more.
Part of it too seems to be that the idea of challenging the students and being able to
customize things to each student's needs. Because some students, they get, they're challenged by
chapter one. Some of the stuff is hard. Some students, they get to their challenge in chapter three
or four. And by liberating them to move ahead, yeah, get to chapter four, get to that part that
challenges you, or if you need to stay here, hey, chapter one's challenging. Everybody's working on
that part where they're actually thinking, actually dealing with those challenges. I think that's
great, Corey. Yeah, and those kids that are working ahead, if they're on chapter four and you're
in another kid's still on chapter one, then those chapter four kids, they have a project that they
can work, that works on, you know, broadening that knowledge, that depth of knowledge,
start getting into depth of knowledge three and four. So you're not skimming the surface,
just trying to meet minimal state standards or national standards or whatever standards you're
trying to meet. You're actually applying what you've just learned in a challenge-based,
project-based approach to that. And it's fun. It's in a teacher can oversee that,
but also give kids the ability to work on their own and to challenge themselves with some
various things and help other students. So it's, you know, that's the way I want to be. I mean,
we have in service here next week. And I look at our teachers. And if I'm up there talking for too
long, guess what they do. They tune out, right? I mean, that's human nature. Nobody wants to sit.
I mean, sometimes our teachers, they're the worst students because they're thinking ahead,
always wanting to do things in their classroom. And they can't be present in the moment because
they're invested into what needs to get done in their own world. So noticing that,
they like to be challenged as well. And we try to apply that.
Speaking of wanting to talking too much, I've been saying too many questions in a row,
but I think I'd have one more, Johnny, please. Yeah, I would love it.
If you could talk about this, Corey, there's another aspect of this situation you're talking
about where you allow students to go at their pace, get to these challenges,
invest themselves in the material. And then when you go to a kid like that and you say,
hey, can you help your classmate with that? That gives a self-esteem boost to that kid.
Oh, you trust me to help my classmates? Oh, you actually think I'm learning? That's
that's actually good for these kids. And it starts to have more of a meaning than,
you know, we're learning to learn. No, I learned. And now I'm helping people. Hey,
that's pretty cool. I'm actually building something.
We have a student run business here called Cardinal Manufacturing. It's a tech ed. And they do
machining and they do job shop stuff, you know, for businesses in our area across the country,
local, local partners. And that's exactly what it is. It's, they're not just mass producing
something. They are taking a problem that someone has. And sometimes people will come in as simplistic
as some measurements written on a napkin and say, well, this keeps breaking on my tractor or my
machine. Can you machine something that will withstand this? And they will build a product,
they will take it, they will engineer it on their Tadcam software, they will build prototypes,
they will machine it, they will test it, they will, you know, if they have to redo it,
they will redo it. But when they are done with that, they think they can, they can do anything.
They're ready to tackle the world. The sense of pride and confidence that student has.
And it carries over all other aspects of what they do in their life. And that's more powerful
than anything else. I mean, if you believe you can do something, whether or not you have those
skills or not, if you believe you can do something, you're going to do pretty well in life.
Yeah, Corey, and I like where we're going with this in terms of, you know, what it means for
changes in the education and the future of things. And it's exciting because I hear you talking
about engagement and all the ways that technology changes. And, you know, what we do, like the craft
of teaching and being in schools of learning has purpose. And technology is changing our communities.
And this is preparing young people for the lives and worlds they're going to be living in.
You mentioned schools have done things the same way for a really long time. You know, Jacob
summed it up in his experience of why he didn't like parts of school. I think we can all relate,
you know, the stuff that doesn't make sense anymore. And it sounds like, you know, things are
catching up and maybe aligning. But I wanted to sometimes when I think about AI, even though you've
described it really well as this tool and things, you know, I think of it as, you know, like eroding
trust and like, like making facts and things more like less trustworthy. And it's just where my mind
goes with that because I think of like, oh, AI means chat GPT and chat GPT means everybody's an
expert. But I was want to reiterate for our listeners, like when we, when Cory's talking about AI,
it's not just like a super powered search engine, like ask, I say, you know, AI powered
technologies in the classroom that make teaching. I'm going to say it kind of like super teaching.
And I can't even remember like Cory, you know, especially as a high school medical teacher for a
while, sometimes it was like six 700 students. So when you're talking about even if I'm lucky,
I pick like an honors class to differentiate instruction and really well because they're all kind
of close in what they know enough that I can achieve it. But you know, 700 students, which is,
you know, not much for an AI powered tool to sort through and say, Johnny, here's where students
are learning and not learning and what they know and don't know and where you need to put more
attention and specifically who needs that attention, you know, it makes my job more doable. But can
you talk about just kind of talk about the technology a little bit describe it to maybe say like the
parent out there that's listening or the naysayer who's like, but that AI just, you know, just spreads
misinformation and just gets kids, you know, looking stuff up on the internet where they think they're
learning and they're not really learning, but kind of kind of take us to the to the inner workings of
it. Well, if a teacher gives a task and it can be, and you can use chat GPT to finish that task,
then we're asking the wrong questions, right? And we tell everybody it's human prompted. So it starts
with the human AI generated and it finishes with the human review. All too often people forget
the last step and that is the human review because it hallucinates, it will give you incorrect
information, but you have to be a wise enough consumer of that information to take a look at it and
apply your knowledge and perspective to that based on what you're doing in the classroom.
But when it comes to the AI power devices, it's not, I mean, sure, chat GPT and some of the other
search engines are a part of that, but some of the things we're using like KonMigo, it replicates
a teacher. How many times have you been at home? At least I remember my child that being at home,
we're here to do these 35 problems that night. Well, you get on number 17 and you get stuck on
something. Well, you can't call up your seventh grade teacher and ask a question at that particular
time. So what do you do? You ask your parents, your parents probably have no clue because they haven't
done seventh grade math and forever. They don't, but here you can ask KonMigo, and it's just a simple,
sometimes it's simple, and it's not like they're just going to give you the answer. They'll prompt
you and help you get to that answer. And then, boom, you're not stuck on problem 17 anymore.
You're, you're going. So when kids want answers, they can get answers. And it doesn't happen that
have to happen between eight and three o'clock in the afternoon when teachers are available.
Or it doesn't have to happen when you've had your hand raised in the corner of the classroom.
And that teacher is helping another student. You can, it helps replicate what the teacher is capable
of doing. Now, it doesn't replicate the social, emotional connections and the getting to know
you things and that human connection, but it does serve a very good purpose. And these, these
apps are driven to answer mathematical related questions or English language arts related questions.
They aren't giving you statements that aren't related to that. When you get into those, you start
to realize that and they're super, super powerful. I love that, Cory. Thanks for just kind of
breaking that down for us. And you know, we had astrophysicist Ethan Segal on a couple of weeks ago,
talking about same thing, folks, like, you know, he was saying, AI is really powerful because it knows
what you've told it to know. And an AI that's been programmed to know those things can be really
useful. So like Cory is saying, an AI that's, that's, that's programmed AI generated programs that
have information given to them about English language arts, about math concepts, about doing math,
about how you might learn to do math is going to be a pretty powerful tool at the hands of both
teachers and students. We're excited about what's happening at liftoff. We love what you've
contributed here, Cory, but especially what you're doing in your district. Let's wrap it up soon,
but Jacob, I think you got another question for our guy before we wrap up. Yes, I do, Johnny. He reads
my mind, Cory. He's good at that. I don't know how he does it. I know this is turning into the
Jacob remembers being in school show, but I remember when I was a kid and I was in school,
I learned about pirates. And the pirate ship is small and nimble while the big Spanish galleon.
Oh, it's got a hundred cannons on it, but it's so huge. It can't move. And I think in sometimes
in life, we think, Oh, cities, that's where all the dynamic stuff happens. But actually,
it's our rural communities who are able to actually try new things because the scale smaller.
Just last week on the show, Tim was telling us a story about how when he was a young teacher,
he tried to set up a civil war day. And just one thing like that in one school can take a lot of
people working together to try something new. So try to multiply that by the city of Chicago's
education system. And you realize why sometimes they can't try new things. I'd like you to talk about
it, Corey, how has the size of your district enabled you to try some new creative things?
Well, what started as a reason for us to pursue this, because rural America, it's tough to get
teachers. You know, we're fewer and fewer people are entering the teaching profession. So from
that perspective, but we also looked at it in your exactly right, being small and nimble,
being able to take an idea and engage a few people in that conversation and run with it.
We have, I have a tremendously supportive school board. We have a wonderful community.
Our staff is top notch. And because we work together, we have this family feel because we know
the students, we know what their needs are. We're able to maneuver quickly, you know. And at the end
of the day, failures, you know, working through these things, that's all part of the job. I mean,
they know me well enough as a leader to know that, you know, their job isn't in jeopardy because
they fail that something. I want them to try. And if they fail in doing it, that's part of the
process of learning, you know. So I was just talking to the teacher today, one of our math teachers,
young math teacher, and I said, you have exactly, you have every right to fail in this. And I
understand that you're gonna, there will be productive struggle, but you going through that
productive struggle at the same time as your students will give this more credibility because
you're learning along with them. And, you know, being small, we can have those conversations,
we can meet in small groups. And you're exactly right. It's, it's a more powerful vessel
to be, to be going through the seas with.
Thank you very much, Cory. That was great. And it's great to see rural America leading the way
to something great we've got coming here in the future and given people a sense of hope there
that things can be improved. Johnny, the floor is yours.
Hey, yeah, I love it. You know, what a great show listeners out there. What a treat to have,
you know, our guest, Cory, Kool-Aid here, just to recap again, the superintendent from
Alibis from school district in Western Wisconsin. And they're doing great stuff. Check out
liftoffs over there or just keep your ear to the ground or, hey, if you're a teacher,
they'll sleep on rural districts. I share that with my future teachers all the time and
I will say many of them are like, yeah, but I wanted to live close to and plug in the
big city. And then they go. And, you know, 15, 20 years later, I talked to them and they're
they're loving their job. They wouldn't trade it for the world. They've seen some amazing things
happen. So big fan of what's happening in our rural districts appreciate the work that you're
doing, Cory, you know, give a high five to our friend Mike Bigley when you see him next over there.
And all, and all your teachers get excited about the year. So thanks for busting pencils with us
today. You bet. Thanks for having me. And now it's time for your moment of zin.
The cry of the poor is not always just. But if you don't listen to it, you will never know
what justice is.
Thanks for listening to busted pencils class in session today. And you can always grab great podcasts
like this one. You just got to go to bustedpensils.com or, you know, search on Apple podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever it is, you get your podcast stuff. And don't forget, you can always, always find us
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all week long. Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays with home rooms on Monday, class in session like
today's great show with Cory on Wednesdays and loads of fun to wrap up every work week. And
soon to be for you students out there school weeks. Don't forget Fridays with producer choice
Jacob. That's a special fun show. And you can always, always, always listeners, catch us at 3 pm
central time across all the civic media network stations for one hour of your favorite blue collar
on Saturday afternoon with Tim and Johnny. So keep busted pencils.