This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker, and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci.
And Jacob!
Educated Educators Talking Education.
Uh-huh.
Not Anne Jacob, Jacob.
Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk,
Educated Educators Talking Education.
Saturday Show Civic Media listeners out there in your car,
listening live on your app.
Man, we are so glad you're with us today.
And yes, of course, downloaders.
We always appreciate you, no matter what time and where you're downloading
and where you're listening.
I will just put out a word of advice.
If you don't have a water-resistant phone,
don't listen in the shower.
Um, I had to explain that in the Luke's 25 now,
but when he was in 9th grade,
he thought that taking his cell phone in the shower for music was a good idea
about a month after that.
He's like, Dad, what's wrong with my phone?
And, uh, yeah, it didn't survive taking showers.
Um, so any civic media listeners, we know that's not you.
Johnny, Jacob, Saturday, loving it.
Johnny, will you up to my friend?
Hey, loving it, you know,
enjoying summer as I can.
You know, I'm on that wine down,
get ready to get back to school about a month out just under until I'm back,
you know, in my classroom.
So starting to think about it a little bit more,
you know, transition from my offseason to the beginning of,
you know, what I'll call the preseason mid-August back to the classrooms,
but pretty excited about that.
So full summer mode here, you know,
just taking it in, getting ready for that,
getting ready for that ease back into the school year.
Nice.
Glad to know you're easing back into it.
Producer Jacob, what's going on for you on this wonderful Saturday.
I'm very excited to be here on a Saturday.
You know, I love Saturday so much, Tim and Johnny.
And I'm not a teacher.
I haven't been in a classroom for over a year.
And I'm still getting anxiety from walking in the store
and seeing those signs that say back to school.
I, yeah, I'm okay.
I don't need it.
I need, you know, let's keep the summer going a bit.
Uh, we had that you did the whole episode on back to school.
Is it too soon?
What in the world is the commercial world coming to made us though
think we did a little bit of a reflection during that moment too
about saying, you know,
who would be kind of working with us on this going like,
don't let the anxiety creep in.
Don't let that let's regulate.
Well, you know, we're talking about our friends at educators amplified.
Yeah, teacher Joanna teacher, Halley.
But today, yeah, we have one of them today.
It's teacher Joe Anna for now.
Or as we should say to the busted pencils listeners,
you have known her so long as teacher Joanna.
But Johnny and I had a meeting and we've made a decision
that teacher Joanna no longer where we're just,
we just can't do it any longer because,
well, because she's now Johnny,
Dr. Joanna right there.
Yes, she's still a teacher.
But Dr. Joe Anna, congratulations.
Welcome to busted pencils.
How are you our friend?
I am well, thank you.
I'm so excited about my added title,
let's say because right, I'm always a teacher.
I'm still a teacher.
I'm always a teacher.
But yes, I did complete my doctorate degree.
Johnny, so in other words,
although I can see this that she didn't have the same effect
on her scalp as you and I had by doing our doctorate.
I still have my hair.
Oh, there you go.
Well, teacher Joanna, so yeah,
it's Dr. Joanna, she finished her PhD.
We're gonna talk about that today,
the journey of what it takes to do that type of work.
Because Joanna, you did it in a different pathway
and I think our listeners would love to hear this
because in one way, Johnny and I,
guess what, we kind of followed the path.
We taught for a few years.
We dug in, we did some graduate work.
We found a connection in understanding that,
you know what, I think I want to teach in higher education.
The only way to really teach in higher education
is to finish that PhD, EDD,
or as they call it, the terminal degree.
And we did that.
We got our jobs as professors,
got our tenures, got our promotions,
and we're still in it.
But teacher Joanna, you did this,
you're not interested in becoming a professor.
No, no, yeah, I do have a different path.
Okay, so we're gonna, you know, Johnny, right?
Did I kind of get your bio sort of okay?
Yeah, you got it, right?
I mean, I did it a little bit different steps.
I swore I was never gonna be a professor all the way
until about a month before I defended my dissertation
and had a job offer to be a professor.
And so, you know, that came a little ways,
maybe decade or so after teaching for a while.
So, but yeah, it's different pathway
because, you know, we have a veteran educator
with expertise who advocates for teacher perspectives
and teacher excellence in a very important and unique.
And I'll say, I think underlistened to way.
I think we have a lot to learn from both teacher Joanna
and teacher Halle and to know that teacher Joanna
is Dr. Joanna now and to have, you know,
learned from her research over the years.
And to have that formalized in a way where it's going
to impact how much, you know, it's sad to say
some of those credentials are required for the kinds
of people who turn their ears off to teach your expertise.
So, I'm excited about teacher Joanna
being Dr. Joanna because obviously we learned
and listened to teacher Joanna and teacher Halle before.
But now a whole lot of people whose ears are closed
to these kinds of things may have ears open in a different way
to consider these wonderful ways
that we can all learn to be better educators
in a different way than kind of that stereotype
of, you know, be the teacher that's loud and energetic
and sometimes isn't what works for everybody,
especially for kids in our classrooms,
you know, being a regulated adult in a room
is really important and I think is underlistened
to and teacher education and an education.
So to have someone who says, I've done it, I'm doing it
and I'm working with lots of different ways
that people are doing that, both what we would consider
formal research and, you know, in the trenches,
kinds of day-to-day ways that teachers have expertise.
I'm excited about that and I'm excited today
for a special broadcast with Dr. Joanna
because wow, like we learned so much from you, Dr. Joanna
but just, but just also being able to learn
from your doctoral studies and your, the research
that you've been doing and you've been putting your heart
in mind and hands into for so long.
It's a gift to the education world.
So listeners, you're going to get some of that today
because teachers join, now Dr. Joanna's going to share
that wonderful stuff because we talk about regulation
but I am so pumped about the introduction
of generative regulation theory.
I mean, like I'm, I've been geeking out to this
before I even knew it was a dissertation
and so much more to come.
But listener, stay with us because this is exciting stuff.
We're going to have Dr. Joanna introduce
generative regulation theory.
Yeah, yeah.
But before that, Joanna, here's the question.
Seriously, I mean, you didn't need to do this.
You, you didn't need it.
You have what 30 years experience as a teacher,
master's degree.
You've been working in the, as Johnny says
in the trenches, you've created an incredible program
that has just served so many students so well.
And I imagine there's a teacher or, you know,
and a person out there who's going,
oh, why did she do that?
She didn't, she didn't need to.
And, you know, because we're going to talk about,
you know, it wasn't easy to do that.
But I mean, what was it that kind of you said
because is it because like Johnny kind of said
is it's like, okay, you know, is there,
is it a credibility thing that you get with this?
Or, you know, listener wants to know, teach Joanna,
you could have just kept doing what you're doing,
retired and sipped on those, you know,
peanut colladas.
Well, it was a natural progression for me.
And though here in your story to Johnny,
it's interesting.
Like everyone does say, like, why, why are you doing this?
Or why did you do this?
And they expect it to be a linear path for me to say,
I want to be a professor.
I want to be a superintendent.
And I can honestly say that I,
I have continued to say, I'm not sure.
I'm just following something that's natural and important to me.
I don't know that it's, you know,
overtly about credibility.
I, one, I do really enjoy going to school.
And so now I really, I'm like, okay.
I'm like, am I going to go back again?
Or is this it?
So one, I do enjoy going to school,
but then two, I did really,
I guess my closest answer is,
I did really want to be able to contribute
in a meaningful way to the field of education.
And in particular to the ideas around regulation,
which we'll talk more about and by that,
I mean, nervous system regulation and youth wellness.
And so it was just a natural progression,
let's say of my life's work and the observations I had made.
And then when I did go exploring to find out
there really wasn't,
there's not much here in the field.
And so I wanted to be able to open that up
and contribute to other people or to other people's ideas
where there are connections.
And to, I just, I also think that part of it is
many of us who are in the field have this desire
for this deep, meaningful work.
And there is no place for it in our actual work, right?
And so I think this is a place
that many teachers are naturally at.
They're curious, they're interested,
they're conducting research.
And that's part of the thing is my research methodology
was testimonial, which is from Latin American
and Chicana scholarship,
where it positions people's story and experience
as credible knowledge sources.
And so I know standing along all my brothers and sisters
and teaching that there's people out,
they don't have the formal doctorate,
but they're working at this level.
And I just wish, of course,
that this was part of our professional experience.
And it's not, and it's not specifically for a teacher.
I think a difference between myself and some people
that I know who have gone this route
is that as a teacher, I did pay for it myself.
Whereas administrators often get their continuing education
paid for.
So this was something that I did invest in,
but it was investing in myself and in my own well-being.
There's times, when I research about regulation,
there is a part of it that, you know, like reading
and research is a healthy form of disassociation.
Hmm.
Anyway, I've learned this myself.
My goodness, disassociation, that sounds like
something I experienced daily.
Although, you know, yes, it's Dr. Teacher,
always a teacher.
Dr. Joanna, from Educators Amplified,
we are celebrating this accomplishment,
this hard work.
Joanna, too, we're going to get more into,
as Johnny said, the GRT, you know,
the regulation theory,
but I also want to ask you the two, or point out.
In 2013, when you and I met, you had this desire.
Let's talk a little bit more about that when we get back.
Oh, man, slow head bang there.
Saturday, though, it's busted pencils,
fully-led education talk,
educated educators, talking education,
Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, producer, chairman of the board,
Jacob, me, Dr. Tim Slecker,
and yes, our incredible guest,
Dr. Teacher Joanna, Educators Amplified.
She's been on the show many times with her partner,
Teacher Halley, and we are celebrating
this accomplishment of completing her doctorate
and Joanna, though, it's 2025.
You and I met 2013, 2014.
And I remember, too,
we don't have to do the regulation story
because you're like, what do you think about regulations?
And I was like, they're horrible.
I hate rules.
You're like, no, no, no, not that.
But you and I talked at that time
and you were saying, like, I've got this,
you know, I teach the real school.
I've got this great program.
In fact, I think you were already enrolled
or had been enrolled in a PhD program.
It's a UW, but you were kind of feeling like, I don't know.
And you're like, Tim, what do you think?
And I was like, wow, do you know what I mean?
What are you doing it for?
You know, do you want to become a professor?
And you're like, no, I don't really want to do that.
But I mean, how long before you and I had met
were you thinking, were you, you know, working
because you made a decision to not finish your doctor
at that time and wait until what you've been doing
this now for the last three years?
Yeah, well, this last half was two.
Okay.
Okay.
So, I mean, you know, take us back quickly
to 2013 when we met.
I will because you are an important part of my story
in terms of how this all did come together.
I remember two meeting with you in 2013 ish
and right, showing you my materials just from my school
and you saying, this is a PhD.
Is this a PhD?
And I was like, well, no, I'm not.
No, I'm in a program, but no, this isn't it.
And you're like, oh, my God, this is PhD worthy.
So, you know, that you put in my head
and then you're right in our conversations
though you would say, why?
I would just say I was always bouncing between
at what I call academia or advocacy.
And so when I started at the UW,
I was into the academia piece, right?
And at the time.
And and and wanted to continue,
but I really wasn't comfortable in the program.
It wasn't what and that's not to beg UW.
It just wasn't for me.
And and I'm old enough and wise enough and even then
to be like, I don't like how this feels.
And I felt like too, there was so much meeting to happen.
I almost felt like I was sitting on the sidelines,
sitting and writing papers.
And it was after that that I started educators amplified.
So I always got to channel my energy somewhere.
And so I was doing the academia.
And I was like, dude, this is not fulfilling.
And then I went into advocacy,
which meant really trying to almost be a community organizer
for people here in the Metro Milwaukee area.
And I was really trying to bridge our suburban districts
with MPS, our largest urban district.
Anyway, and so I went back and forth
and then returned, you know,
and then I think you get into advocacy
and you're like, oh my God,
there's all these things I'm wondering about
and want to research.
And then I'd go back to academia.
And so then this round going to academia,
to what was really clear.
When I first started to, they'd be like,
what do you want to do it on?
And I felt like I was making stuff up.
You know what I mean?
Being like, what do I want to do it on?
And it was like making up stuff.
And so what's your, what's your research question?
It felt like really like foe and forced.
But then when I went back this time, I was clear, right?
And I was like, oh, I know what I want to,
I know what I want to do.
And I even think I kind of know how I want to do it.
And I did have an excellent chair.
And she was so awesome in like complimenting
and you know, feeding into and putting me in connection
with sources that kind of affirmed my work
but also made me more curious about things.
Johnny, I know you're sitting there here and going like,
yeah, I, you know, the academia versus advocacy.
You know, we, I believe, you know, I was prepared for academia.
And I learned to advocate, my advocacy came after academia.
And I can look back at my program and say, yeah,
it was very traditional.
Johnny, you know, his work.
Mine was, mine was the opposite 10.
I started a couple doctoral programs,
University of Indiana, University of Toledo.
I had teased the idea earlier in my teaching career.
And it didn't feel right similarly.
I mean, it was, it didn't feel like it was time for me to leave my classroom
and learning and Detroit and being a teacher and the neighborhoods
that I was working as an advocate in, you know,
and so my, my grew out of like sort of activism and education.
And, and then I was at, you know, the blue collar scholar label
comes, honestly, I found a home in a program that, you know,
was for community advocacy and education.
It was an urban education program partnered with public health.
So there were nursing educators or community organizers.
There were teachers and school leaders, but it was really a program
that I would say prepared for the traditional.
But mostly was practitioner focused and really about advocacy
and change in action.
So it was a unique program that I ended up being able to work in.
And I'm, and not many of those folks went on to traditional academia.
And so I have a little bit of a different experience in my,
in my program.
Well, and, and yeah, so much going on there and teacher,
teacher, doctor, Joanne, a doctor teacher, Joanne, you know,
talking about this.
So, too, and in your journey, I think, too, for people to hear.
I started here.
It was over 10 years ago.
I still had the bug.
I found this.
And then I jumped in.
And when we get back, let's really explore what you jumped into
and why.
And then that GRT fussed pencils.
Before we get back.
Now it's like Thor's hammer, busted pencils, fully-ledged education talk,
educated educators, talking education.
What made me think of that, I'm binging my favorite show, Vikings again,
I'm going to download it Netflix and Holy crap.
I can watch every episode.
Oh, not what we're talking about today, though.
Teacher, doctor, doctor, teacher, Joanne, educators, amplified is in the house,
talking about that journey that you've been on.
And, and teacher, doctor, Joanne, I, what you were talking about the earlier,
you say, you know, I started with the UW, right?
You're like, I, I'm not criticizing you.
It said what happened there.
But then you went someplace else.
And I think people need to hear.
Okay.
For me, when I hear you started at UW and it didn't, because, you know,
UW is a big R1 graduate school.
And, you know, Johnny, correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean,
to imagine that they were preparing you to be a scholar, faculty member,
that's what they do.
Yeah.
And that's not a negative, but that, that's, you know, I remember me.
I was at the University of Maryland College Park.
And I remember working with my advisor, who was, you know, point blank,
and University of Maryland College Park was an R1 research institution.
But Tim, my job is to prepare you to become a researcher and a faculty member
and be qualified to go and work in another research one institution.
You know, like, yeah, no, it's really important to me to still be a practice.
You know, I'm a practitioner.
That's when you say teacher, I, I equate that with practitioner.
And I knew that, I mean, I love one of the things I think I kind of do feel confident in myself.
I can hold both spaces. I am both about theory and practice.
And a lot of times people are either or, I know I'm both, um, anyway.
And so maybe that was part of it.
I'm not sure.
But definitely it was, it didn't, I didn't feel like I could be me.
And I don't know if two of that's just my career has been in all debt.
I'm an all dead student through and through.
Okay.
So that means I got to understand it in my way.
I got to feel a real relationship.
I've got to be able to work through my strengths.
And maybe that was it that that's what it didn't.
Like I kept feeling like I had to force myself to be another way to fit somebody else's standard.
And so when I made the switch to Viterbal, which is where I had done another.
I had done my administrative certification.
And it just had a different vibe. I remember because it was more that whole like,
we're about you. They have a mission around ethical leadership and service.
That's like legit.
And I sent seem like they understood what I was talking about.
To be quite honest. And so they weren't like, well, no, this is what we're talking about.
So we need you to do it this way.
They were like, oh my gosh, this is what you talk about.
Oh, cool.
You could do it this way.
And so yeah, it just felt, it was like coming home.
And so, but that is it to anyone.
And again, as a practitioner, that's something that I think is really important in teachers that I work with and mentor and with students who I've taught, right?
Like, find your way, babies.
And let's go.
You don't have to be my way, my skill and strength is that I can hear.
You and I can help, you know, help you find your way.
And so I feel like the institution I selected and ended up completing with.
That is what they did. They heard me and helped me find my way.
Johnny.
Well, I love that and big plug for a terrible and excellent work that's happening over there in Wisconsin.
So hey, listeners, you probably can check it out too.
You don't have your preaching to the choir teacher or teacher, Dr. Joanna, because, you know, big fan of the Franciscans.
And no doubt that it would fit the kind of work you do.
And the spirit you embody with a commitment to poverty, humility, service, you know, and bringing like you said, theory and practice to action.
That practice piece that is for everyone, especially the most vulnerable in our communities.
And so, you know, sometimes it's about the fit.
In fact, I'd argue it's always about that fit.
And it doesn't shock me.
And so for our listeners to know that you would find home for your amazing work and perspective in schools.
To be supported matched and in good kind of resonance and harmony with a group of higher education folks who are committed.
So, you know, I'm just trying to make a mission right to poverty, humility and service.
So theory comes to action and those kinds of spaces in my experience.
So big ups to, you know, to your experience and that Tim, you know, I'm just jumping at the bit.
Because I want.
I know you go jumping man. Now's the time.
So, so Dr. Joanna, this is you like, I like how you say to you.
Once a teacher, always a teacher that never goes away.
But we've heard about the work that educators amplify is done that you've been doing you and teacher Holly and so many other folks are on centered education right and around regulation.
And, you know, I think this movement through your work to introduce generative regulation theory.
I mean, can we get into it Tim? Can we go.
Let's do it theory and the practice.
Introduce our listeners right to regulation centered theory of education.
Cool. Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it and I want to start out in by saying maybe two things first.
One is that yes, I had a really successful run in designing and operating the school that focused on regulation and well being, but this research was actually not about that.
So a lot of people would assume like, well, what's the recipe and how do we do it.
And I backed it up with my research was more about.
It was titled shifting the schema of schooling and what allowed I wanted to find out like what.
I had suspected that there was a shift, meaning that these students, these educators believed that education served a different purpose in this school than a traditional high school that.
I really only talked about credits and graduation. They talk about credits graduation and maybe some extra curriculars like that was how it was kind of overall being defined and I was like, oh, we were able to shift the schema of schooling and have people open to that it can look and function in a different way.
I was like, I felt that was that really what happened. And so my research.
Really focused on the experience of individuals, both students and staff who, like I said, experienced a different education model, a model that folk that was focused on a regulate what I call a regulation centered education.
I mean that our foundation was creating nervous system regulation.
And that can sound, I don't know if that sounds fru fru weird, whatever, but it's literally the bottom line of all of our connection that if our nervous system.
If our regulation, if we're out of balance, we're really not connecting relationally or cognitively.
And so looking at it as though that we assume regulation and schooling.
And this idea that we could be responsible for generating it. But maybe sometimes even though I do like to talk about like the what I desire versus what I'd like to, you know, dismantle in a way.
But I think that it is also though important to just say, and the premise is that we are not having success as an institution with meeting our current context is what I what I call it and I saw this really drastically change after COVID like there had been signs and
there had been a big maybe like drop off in terms of what I was noticing and student health and engagement quite honestly back with no child left behind.
And the introduction and mandating of a lot of standardized programs and technology.
There's many different factors, but overall what I'm saying is we're really not meeting the moment in terms of people feeling.
Of schools contributing to wellness.
It's either like you're either well when you get there or not, you know, and if you're not then we'll come up with all kinds of like programs and ideas and little side plans to maybe help you get well.
But there's not a focus on how can we be sure that the institution that the children and the adults are in is actually contributing to their health and well being.
And so generative regulation theory is pretty self explanatory in terms of that the words it's this theory that we can generate regulation.
And that that's the foundation of education that we generate that everything that occurs when you interact with the school is going to be done through a restorative approach let's say that.
It generates regulation instead of further contributing to this regulation.
Let me jump in there real quick to end up because what you're saying because you've said it to me in this way many times.
Our kids come in so many ways to school in different states of being in their mind.
Schooling says get ready get straight because you need to fit into this box today you're saying hey wait a minute first of all the box is a whole problem in and of itself.
And we need to start by helping students find an ability to get themselves regulated because then we can explore what it means to learn when they're regulated.
Am I doing okay.
I mean so but that's what people struggle with is you have to first acknowledge that most of what our current schema is is is first of all from an outdated understanding of how our brains work and child development.
So most of our current schema is built on compliance and force and fear in a way.
You know like it's always like how do we make I always I even have a voice I'll use or everything will be like how do we make them like if parents don't come to conferences how do we make them if kids won't read how are we going to make them you know and there's just this whole.
Our schema is very top down power over and so yeah i'm saying that we can shift or we need to first of all use the information now available to us there is very good and clear information in the field of neuroscience about how brains and bodies work and how learning occurs and and learning occurs in connection.
And it just does and so.
We live in a world that i'm going to straight up say I think because of the world we live in we all experience low grade chronic stress and so if we're going into an environment that is specifically its purpose is for our learning or our healthy development then we have to consider regulation.
So okay we're typically to yeah it's like Tim and Johnny are going to come back and break this down no we're not we got a little bit more time with teacher doctor Joanne we want to keep her yeah for that last segment because there's more to go there Johnny's writing some great comments in there love this Joanne it's such wonderful and clear work that's what Johnny wrote in our little inside chat.
It's the pencils fully led education talk teacher doctor Joanna one more time when we get back.
Oh there it is up one more time busted pencils fully led education talk educated educators talking education dr Johnny Lupinati Jacob chairman of the board me dr Tim selecker and teacher dr Joe Anna from educators amplified.
GRT that's what we're you know love that not chat GPT it's teacher dr Joe Anna GRT.
Teacher dr Joe Anna man we wanted to keep you on for a little bit longer just so you can continue what you said during the meal we people want to know about this because I think what you put forward here is this kind of sense you call the schema for other people's like what it's like.
The way things are is because people assume that it should be this way which is compliance.
You know I to me it's forced compliance and it doesn't fit with who kids are and I like where you're going for the break it actually probably doesn't really fit well with anybody right now because of chronic stress.
Well and and part of this research you know was with adults saying that when we have models that are intentional about generating regulation it's a positive for everybody it's it's the and so generative the opposite of that is depleting that right we are seeing the profession depleted right now.
Because of the way that the work is structured and and how what people are being asked to do it's depleting but this is generative and we can also say that the issues with chronic absences and disengagement is also evidence of depletion.
And so yeah I just know that there can be another way and that it doesn't cost a million dollars you don't need an army of clinicians these are things that are actually completely possible with what is already there with the students you currently have with the staff you currently have it's just shifting the schema to be like.
Okay what if our main focus to start is wellness what if we're making sure that we're that when you walk in the door that the environment is supporting your wellness that the adults and the people who work there that you interact with are supporting your wellness and that the policies and practices that the institution.
You know over arches the institution that they support wellness and so what do I mean by that it can be as small as taking stock of how people enter the building to as large as what is your suspension policy or what kind of practices are used to communicate with families are we only reaching out.
To like report and like talk about what's wrong or do we have ways of engaging families that are again supportive of their regulation and again maybe right now I can sound like.
I don't know like maybe not concrete enough but this is all rooted in my direct experience that when when when we designed a model where we were like regulation is the goal and then we aligned everything with that what we found and what the research then found and my subjects ranged in age from people who had just graduated who were like 18 years old to my long term.
Sub who was 72 years old what we found was that yes this generated regulation and had a we called a framework of.
of embedded enacted and embodied that when there was an embedded philosophy that made sense all across the board and then it was enacted through practices that supported that then it became embodied in them so an example I can give is like traditional school will be like you know turn in your homework because that's the right thing to do.
But then when you don't turn in your homework what comes back isn't necessarily the right thing to do what comes back is like threats reporting out to your parents taking things away exclusionary methods and so that doesn't really support someone moving forward.
And so when it's when there's a clear philosophy and it's embedded in all things when it's enacted it then becomes embodied and this is something that the students and the teachers who were a part of this model they still what I call live the way they feel it and they can speak about how this is a part of their lives.
Man you're coming back teacher Dr. Joanna I feel like instead of what we're going to do is should be a moment of Dr. Joanna but hey it's time for your moment of sin.
We don't all have to do heroic things all we have to do is little things and at a certain points in history millions of little things come together and change takes place.
Thank you for listening to today's broadcast with one of our most esteemed guests Dr Joanna and if you want to grab more busted pencils podcasts we'll just head on over to Apple Spotify wherever it is you get your podcasts and you can always find us on civic media.com or on our website busted pencils.com and remember you can always get great busted pencils content.
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