Oh, that's only some of you who can see this on the YouTube if you're listening, downloading
thank you. It's busted pencils fully, let it education talk, educated educators talk education. Yeah,
it's where all the cool people are hanging out, checking out, doing what we do here, you know,
today, me, Dr. Tim Selecker and chairman of the board, Jacob, without Johnny today, Jacob, it's
just me and you, I don't know that we're in the saddle, we're in our saddles. How does that sound?
I feel like a toddler without his blankie when Johnny's not here. I can't, I just, you know,
everything's wrong. I miss him. Oh, if it feels, yeah, it's like, hey, we can do this, Jacob.
In fact, you and I have done this before. Yeah, but Tim, if I may say, I mean, I don't want to step
on your toes here, but because I know you're highly educated educator, and I'm just some
schmo, but when we did this in the past, you hadn't used AI as much, and now some time has passed,
and I don't know if, I mean, if that leads in to anything, I'd be surprised, but. Well, yeah, I
was very unhappy today. Just so everybody knows out there who's listening, so producer Jacob,
the chairman of the board, decided to text me a new article, actually a research study,
that kind of looks at the use of chat GPT, and its effect on the user's cognitive abilities.
Let's use, you know, educated educator type of language, you know, the cognitive abilities.
And, you know, the summary of the research is that over time, the use of chat GPT,
according to the, what do you call it, the EEG. EEG, is that though? It's not the EK, because E,
the, in other words, when they, when they, you used to know this by the way, Jim,
before I understand why I remember you used to know this. So I'm proving your point, but, you know,
when they, they look inside the brain to see when, when things are lighting up. And so after
extended use of chat GPT versus people who want using chat GPT, the, the, the neuro fire works
that were exploding in the chat GPT people, the firework display was not nearly as robust
after time, as compared to people who didn't use chat GPT. And what are the conclusions here?
And I'm trying to think I'm like, okay, so did Jacob send me this article because he thinks that
the, the cognitive fireworks in my head are getting dimmer. No, no, no, Tim. And the fact that
that's how you perceived it just goes to show that your cognitive facilities are in decline.
I just sent it to you, Tim, because of all the people I know in this world, you love AI the most.
And I thought, this will ruin Tim's day. I'll send him this article about this research paper
from MIT. Now, I didn't read the full research paper because I'm just a simple man of the land.
Tim, I can't look at all that. What I got from that is that using the A1 will hurt your
copulative faculties is what I, was I picked up on, but if it made you could explain as an academic,
what it was really trying to say. I would say, yeah, if I am using A1 as an enhancement from my
cognition, that's probably not a good enhancement. Good on stakes, though. And the stakes have never
been higher, Tim, because I've never been higher. Are our children reading good?
I don't put it is our children learning is our is our children learning. I don't know, but
Secretary Mick Mann, though, you know, her use of A1, it will definitely help to taste the first
stakes. I don't know. I mean, the study is an interesting project overview. Your brain on chat GPT
comes out of MIT lab. Check it out, media.mit.edu. You know, a little bit of an academic truly
breakdown, and I'm going to try to re-summon some of the cognitive fireworks that may have started
to dim on me. And kind of look at this study, and you know what, it's actually interesting,
because what they kind of did was say, here you go, here's the deal. One group, you get to write
an essay using chat GPT. And actually, there was even a middle group, you get to write an essay
using Google search. And the other group, you get to write an essay with a pencil and paper.
And then, you know, during that process, looking at the activity of the brain, what was going on
during that time? And they did this over an extended time period, multiple times. And the group
that only used pencil and paper over a certain extended period of time, they had a very bright
fireworks display. And compared to the chat GPT users to write their essays over time,
their cognitive fireworks appeared to dim as compared. And interestingly, the search people,
who only got to use Google, they dimmed slightly. So there's the effect here of going, so in other
words, using pencil and paper is better for the brain as opposed to using chat GPT. Is that the
conclusion we can draw from this study? Hey, as an learned, educated educator who likes to talk
education, the downfall of this study is this is what this proves is that over a four-week period,
the act of being told to write an essay, it looks like something goes on in the brain
when you use a pencil, it looks like something goes on in the brain when you use a search engine.
And it looks like something goes on in the brain when you use chat GPT.
What goes on in the brain during those moments? It's really still speculation because guess what?
We don't know what those fireworks in the brain mean when they show up on imaging devices.
We're guessing that a more robust activity, lots of lights, is some evidence that there's a higher
level of cognition going on. We don't know what I what I like though to at the end of the study
is the list of FAQs and this was the one I sent back to Jacob FAQ. Is it safe to say that large
language models like chat GPT are in essence making us dumber? And the answer from the study
is authors, no, please do not use words like stupid dumb, brain rot, harm, damage and so on.
It does a huge disservice to this work as we did not use this vocabulary in the paper,
especially if you're a journalist reporting on it. So Jacob, for now, you cannot say that I have
brain rot. Tim, I am a commentator, not a journalist. And I think it's important for us to
recognize the difference, a journalist, they have to have standards, they have to really work hard,
they have to mean what they say as a commentator, I can say that those people in their study are
dumb and I disagree. And that I asked chat GPT about the fireworks and chat GPT said it's bad
if you have fireworks in your brain. So actually, I think it's a good sign.
See, so there, who knew that the lack of fireworks in my brain was a good sign. But that's how we go,
but yeah, breaking down the study, yeah, that's one of those things that we do. And actually,
I like the caveat in there, kind of saying, hey, journalists, don't turn this into clickbait
so that you can get people. And actually, I would say that over the years, Johnny and I have
spent a large amount of our time, actually, when we talk about education news stories,
particularly research, actually really doing our best to say this is a dumb journalist trying to
provide research reporting. And the reality is, is that the journalist really doesn't understand
research. And journalists quite often do choose kind of more sensational ways of framing,
quote, research findings to get people to look at it when the reality is, is that that's not what's
happening. And actually, as any study author, and I've actually done studies and authored papers too,
the last thing I want to see is some journalists then take what I think are significant research findings
and turn them into clickbait. So there's the the the analysis from an educated educator who likes
to talk education Jacob. I had the same exact thought as those researchers did at the end of
their paper, because when I first saw this headline, I, I thought, wow, that's interesting. The
New York Post, I wonder if you're giving me the information exactly correctly. So I found the
actual paper to send to you. I thought that might be a bit more useful for our purposes.
Everything has to be sensationalized to a degree, Tim. That's how the news papers sell their,
their papers, right? Well, you know, I mean, so maybe maybe, you know, the fact that we do an
education talk show and we call it busted pencils, you know, maybe there's a little sensationalism
in the title here to get people to come because who would want to listen to people talk about
public schooling? I think you and Johnny are punk rock enough without, you know, any tricks involved.
Yeah, we just try to bring it, you know, bring it every day. And in fact, though, I love
in this at home room, it's Jacob Chairman of the board and me, Dr. Tim Sleckard, Dr. Johnny Lupinacci
is out today doing things right now. Dealing with hockey and as long time listeners know,
one of the things Johnny also does do besides being an educated educator who talks education
and a full-time faculty member, he's also the head coach at Washington state of their hockey team.
And so this trip that he's on right now is actually related to him learning to be an even better
hockey coach. Let's just leave it at that Jacob. Is he really the head coach for Washington state?
Yes he is. He's never told me that.
Oh, he's talking about hockey all the time.
Yeah, that's what he, you know, he's cool. Yeah, it is.
Why are we talking about this stuff?
Well, you will, you're going to have to get on him then for the next class in session when we do
this because it is home room and Jacob, I am so, you know, when we come back to home room, I say,
we like to, you know, occasionally say, you know, what's going on in the education news and
actually you sending along the chat GPT study was a great lead in, I think, to kind of get us back
in that mood. And you know, Jacob, I going to, you know, typically the sources that we like to use
on busted pencils, higher education dive, K-12 dive, inside higher education, and education week
typically is where we, you know, try to start with news. And but this one continues on the topic
that we have been going on here. And this comes out of K-12 dive and the title one in three Americans
recommend trade school for high school graduates. And I'm thinking about this Jacob playing off of
the last time we visited this topic, it was students themselves who were saying that they are
thinking about trade schools more than maybe they're thinking about college. And now we've kind
of got another group of people out in the world saying, I think kids should consider trade schools
as opposed to traditional college. And this makes me think is this a fad that's going on here,
or is this actually something to step up and pay attention to? I'm going to answer my own
stupid rhetorical question. No, this isn't a fad. This is a reality that's happening. We said
people are kind of readjusting, recituating themselves and kind of looking at what does the
future hold and what is the best pathway to get ready for adulthood in this sense? And what kind of
education is going to best serve? Particularly high school kids, as they're about to graduate high
school, is the path of traditional higher education the best pathway to prepare for adulthood and more
importantly, prepare for a life of work? And what we're starting to hear now is that you know what
higher education maybe isn't the best and only pathway if you want to get a leg up in the world.
And Jacob, I know we've been talking about this, but here we go again. So what do we make of the fact
that, you know, in less than a week's time, another article talking about, you know, the importance
of considering, in fact, a portion of adults, one in three adults are saying, you know what,
go to trade school, don't go to college. How does that land on the chairman of the board?
I think that it's not a fad, as you said, but I think that this is becoming a movement in our culture,
in a trend in our culture of people seeing that university education is not always the right solution
for everybody. And the main contributing factor to that, for me, Tim, I would say is just the
overwhelming cost and the high financial bar to entry to getting a degree. There's so many things
going on that contribute, AI uncertainty, is this job that I'm going to get a degree for still going
to be there by the time I'm done or 10 years down the line. But if college is free, you say, hey,
you know, sure there's uncertainty, but it's not that big a risk to get that degree. I think
that is the main factor is just we have an uncertain time, and it's so expensive to go in on this.
It's a huge deal. I mean, if you're 18 years old, you're thinking, man, my dad's 52, and he's
paying off his student loans. I mean, it's your, it is a life decision at 18. And I think there is
a lot of trepidation on the part of not just the kids going to college, but their parents. I mean,
at this point, a lot of these adults are in that system that we've been dealing with for so long.
And Jacob, I've actually admitted this on this show as a father of a 25-year-old and a 22-year-old
who is 58 years old myself. I, you know, I embarrassingly admit that I'm still paying off my student
loans. Some people would say, what? I mean, yes. That's embarrassing, Tim. I mean, you have more in
common with the average experience a lot of people have now than somebody who can say otherwise.
Yeah. And I say, yes, I went back for a master's degree. Yes, I went back for a PhD. And so,
you know, my student loan debt is an accumulation of all three of those degrees over time.
But it is, and, you know, I myself look at my pathway and question, you know, now too. Could I
have done what I accomplished here now differently without the debt load? And my answer to that is now
what I know now is that absolutely I still could have achieved a PhD, but I could have done it
a lot more cheaply to do it knowing how I take an advantage of community college. Had I, you know,
utilize those things. And this is what I think is the good thing that's happening while, quote,
students are making these considerations themselves more and more. Hopefully, that's because we're
educating them better about the choices that are in front of them as they're about to make these
decisions so that it isn't just a kind of like, yes, I'm going to go to school no matter what and
how whatever it takes I'm going to get there. We're starting to say, you know, that is an opportunity
for you. That is a pathway. And if you're going to take out loans, go ahead. That's one way. However,
could you take some dual enrollment classes while you're in high school and get some college credit
there? You know, could you and should you think about, you know, getting your start at your local
community college? Because right now, community colleges and most any other accredited institution,
the acceptance of those transfer credits from community college, it's not an issue anymore.
It was in the past people are like, I don't know if I want to take community college credits because
I don't know if they're going to transfer. You know what? That was a concern, but I can point out
now telling you that it really isn't because institutions are very much in a position that says,
we want to accept your transfer credits because if we don't accept the transfer credits,
there's another higher institution that will. And so those students, so there's a little bit of a,
you know, kind of market there kind of dictating a new reality. But there are ways too. And then
there are work options and internships now more available. So, you know, maybe the reality here that
we're dealing with is maybe an indicator of just better education on the part of, you know,
let's just talk about what we're saying here, 16 and 17 year olds who are considering their
future, that the sense that they're talking about that loads that they're wondering about,
return on investment, and maybe even now saying that, you know what, I'm going to take a trade for
now. And as we talked about the classes in session episode from last Wednesday, some who are
saying, I'm going to take a trade for now because I know that in this trade school that I'm in,
that it's actually counting towards college credits and that maybe after five years in my trade,
I can go to college and use those transfer credits from my, my carpenters apprenticeship and go
forward. And so I, as much as I think people are alarmed, I also think this might be an indicator
that maybe we're actually doing a much better job with helping educate the population be better
consumers of education so that, you know, because as of right now, that's what you got to do here in
America to get yourself higher educated is you got to pay for it somehow, you know, we talked
about our, what do we like best about the international is is that, you know, most of them, what did
Johnny say civil, no, he didn't say civilized, but the, you know, the developed world has decided
that education is like a, you know, it's like a need, like a basic human need and have made
getting an education, you know, at, again, not free, but that the population of taxpayers
make sure that their population has access. We haven't done that yet in America. So what we're seeing
here now maybe is a nice development and potentially maybe it also illustrates of going like,
what in the world, how is it that we're actually creating situations for the future
population of citizens that will be in control, how is it that we came up with a system that we
told them for them to become productive members of society, they must first pay large amounts of
tuition so that they can then go get a job. It seems to me that if we want to prepare the future
to be great citizens first and also good workers and that getting the great citizenry
and good worker skills typically could come in the form of an education that as a society,
we might want to say, you know what, we should make that as easy as possible, maybe even free
dare I say Jacob. Yeah Tim, I think that if we create a system here in America where it is as hard
to get ahead as having to take some Qing Dynasty era bureaucratic exam and if you can't get in,
oh your life is ruined, you can't succeed in this society in our culture, that's not a good place
to be. And I think one could make a fairly easy and obvious connection between the fact that
we've created a us and them situation educated, uneducated with the current situation with a lot
of people feeling left behind in the country, a lot of people voting for bad guys who come with
that populist message. I mean, all these things are connected in some ways and I think if we were
able to evolve the situation a bit to where you don't have to look back on your education and think,
oh darn it, I could have done this cheaper. Well, you shouldn't have to know all the cheat codes
and be a paralegal to find out every loophole to try to do it the cheapest way possible. That system
sounds like it doesn't work to me. Yeah, yeah, okay, you know what? Man, maybe everything I just
said for the last 20 minutes, Jacob, you may have actually been the one, oh my god, you know,
what this is, this is evidence of what chat GPT has done to my brain. I was right. Jacob was right
as per usual. Well, you know what that means. Now it's time for your moment of zin.
I am supposing or perhaps only hoping that our future may be found in the past's fugitive moments
of compassion rather than its solid centuries of warfare.
Hey, thanks for listening to Home Room Busted Pencils. Make sure you come back,
download on Wednesday, Friday, chairman of the board, Jacob's choice, man, if you haven't listened
to one of those episodes, download that right now because I'm telling you, you want to be the first
people to hear what is going to. I think you're going to hear a lot more of Jacob's choice in
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