This Friday, you know what that is, that special busted pencils fully-lettered education
talk. That's, you know, Dr. Tim and Dr. Johnny on the ropes because it's Jacob's choice,
producer's choice. And man, Johnny, I don't know about you, dude, but I get nervous on the
nights before Jacob's choice because- Oh, man, I get excited. I get pumped up for it. I love
the samples that he brings in and then he catches us on our toes, keeps us, keeps us alive.
Tim, we miss the live audience and Jacob brings that element to us every week. But I'm not quick
enough to put his, you know, questions into my AI consciousness, my digital twin. Oh, Tim,
tell him to get off your lawn. Keep it moving. Well, you know, I mean, I've just become so dependent on
my chat buddy, digital Tim, but Jacob, how are you doing, man? We are, I'm, I'm not nervous, Jacob,
I am excited. So- It's got to the medical notes on. Well, I'm glad you're excited, Tim. I would
hate for you to be worried about my questions like I'm going to try to get you or something. I mean,
we're all in this together. My, my past experience with teachers is that most of them are out to get
you. That's true. That's true. I've heard that so many times, especially with the two that I
work closest with. All right, it's time for the producer's choice show. Here's the theme song.
Anything goes. It's going to be producer's choice.
You and I will have two choices. Chairman of the board, Jacob. Oh, Jacob, chairman of the board.
I've got the board. It's spelled B-O-R-E-D.
We choose to go to the moon. Life's a tough choice in here.
We chose one.
Guys, thank you so much for being here. It really means a lot to me because
you were on the first two editions of the show and I thought,
mixed bag and I wasn't sure if you'd come back, but I really appreciate you. Yeah, you're sticking
with me here. This is the producer's choice edition of Busted Pencils. I'm producer Jacob joined,
as always, by to the best guests that have ever been on their own show. Drs. Johnny Lupinacci and
Tim Slecker. Guys, we've been talking about international students a lot on the program lately
because of the president's wacko stand against Harvard and things like that. But today, I want to
take us in a slightly different direction. Tim, Johnny, I want you to tell me a bit about our
international educators today. It's a frequent topic of conversation in the education space,
looking at the Scandinavian model or the Singapore model on and on it goes. Education is handled
differently all around the world and these international methods all have their supporters
and their detractors here in the United States. So here's the topic guys. Tell me about an overseas
education system method or individual educator that you want to highlight as being worthy of emulating
here in America. Tim, because you're scared, we'll start off with Johnny. I get to pull position on
this. I think I'm going to take something that that Tim is not going to go at because I kind of
have a hunch of some of Tim's favorite international influences in education. Also, as it relates to
the reason why he started this show. So I'll leave that for him, but that's a big one and I'll let
him get into that. And if he doesn't, I'll loop back around to it. But Jacob, my favorite thing about
the international model of education as I'm going to focus on higher education is that
primarily we are one of the few places that all of its public higher education is incredibly
expensive for the learner. All right, most public education options of higher education via
the trade school or, you know, a particular major at a college or a university. It might not be
the elite private university that you want to go to, but public education is available to you via
the government support, not in the form of loans, but in the form of how we have gone and understood
our K-12 education here in the US. So it's almost like kind of like we talk about universal health
care. It's universal access to higher education. As part of dare we say it, right, socialist
democracies. Saying that education matters all the way into our adulthood. And if we want to have
a learned community of folks, well, let's let's support them all the way through not having them
fallen to debt in doing so, right? And so the student loan sort of paid large amounts of tuition
model that has become so the norm here in the United States is not the norm in many of those
international models that Jacob you're asking us about. And so I really appreciate that. And I
like that. Some folks might also point out that it's a little bit different and there's more
of a tracking system. It's harder to get into those universities. But, you know, that doesn't mean
that there's not something for everybody in terms of apprenticeship trades, all kinds of ways
that they can, we can fit into our community because there I say it, university should be available
to all, but it might not be the right choice for all until we make it a business. And then it's
get everybody in those seats. So I like all the aspects, even the critique of it, I embrace and I
like because, you know, just because it's available doesn't mean everyone's going to choose it,
right? And so I kind of like how that approach balances itself out. So public education all the way
through higher ed funded primarily by, you know, governments and tax dollars. There I sound a little
socialist there, but I like that model. I like that influence. Great question, Jacob.
Johnny, I really think it's hard for people to understand in America because it's just so foreign
to us, but like you're saying in other countries, not all of them, obviously, but in many other
countries, and especially I think we start thinking about Europe and Western Europe and the UK and
things like that. I mean, the system is very different when it comes to higher education. And it's
not just one system, Johnny, you could tell people about it, but each of them have their own
systems, but overall it tends to be like you're saying much more state funded. And I'll give you
so it's like it's primarily the models I would turn to as having figured this out really well
Germany, Norway, Finland, Iceland, you know, it's a tuition free public university system.
France and Sweden also offer education to students in the EU in general. So it's been something,
you know, that those countries I've been working on for some time and figuring out kind of around
the time when we went into a heavy pay, pay lots of amounts of tuition and get loans. So instead of
the government saying, hey, we got your back, they were like, hey, we're going to make some money
on your back. You know, that's the direction we went here around that same time those countries
went opposite direction and said, hey, let's lock down, you know, let's invest in reducing what
they call a brain drain. And let's invest in our young people. And so let's create free at the point
of access because it's not free. Still costs, right? Governments and funders, but the idea being
free at the point of access. So you nailed that those were primarily the countries.
And like you're saying, Johnny, it's many different systems that have this in common
and these aren't new things. They've they've been experimenting with it for quite a long time.
So if we in America tried to get in on this program, we would not be waiting into uncharted waters.
There's a lot to learn from. And I'm sure that what it ends up looking like if we did it here
would be somewhat different because we're taking lessons learned, applying it to our context.
But I really think that's interesting, Johnny. Oh, Johnny's got something.
Last fun fact, Jacob, the architects of it were from here. So this was part of an initiative
from the Second Bill of Rights coming out of the war on poverty to say, hey, we really got to figure
out how to continue education for our learners in our country and invest in, you know, stronger
economic means for all of our communities. And so they thought, hey, we're going to fund the
heck out of higher education. We can get into a history lesson at some point, bring it back up.
But what happened in the late 70s, early 80s to that decision, primarily out of California?
There was this particular Hollywood superstar who made a big shift on this. So we can come back
around to that another time. But it were the architects of this vision went overseas per se
and helped build this. So it can say, it's built by the great folks here in the United States,
somewhat, or supported by. But they didn't, they were not able to put it into action,
implement it here. And so, here we are, paying student loans off and experiencing a massive dip
in our customers in higher ed. I'll put it that bluntly, students became our
customers. If I could put that into context that the average American can understand, Johnny,
you're saying that the idea of higher education being a more subsidizer or even fully paid by the
state started the United States and it took off overseas. Much like in full house, when Uncle
Jesse's band was not popular, but he found out that in Japan, they loved him. So it's much like
that. I think that can bring that to a level that we can all understand. Tim, how about you,
what's an overseas education system method or educator that you'd like to highlight?
Okay, Johnny knows. Thank you, Johnny. I appreciate your insights into probably knowing where I
would go. Just quick though, back on the public higher education in America, understand both of you.
Anytime you want to talk about importing something good from somewhere else, even though we sent
it over there, as my best friends, we can't do that here, though. It would never work here.
So just remember, it will never work in America for some reason that it's just a known fact that
anytime something that is good that shows a value of the human condition, it won't work here.
I think eventually he's going to catch on here. Jacob, Jacob, okay, I got to put it,
you know, I have been a super fan of Finland. In fact, Pashi Salberg, who used to be the head of what
would be their education department and his qualifications were not suplexing and embarrassing
himself on TV to become the head of education in Finland. No, he's an excellent educator.
But Jacob, what it is with Finland too, and this is one of those questions that people say,
how did they do it? It just must be something special. The finished kids, they've got something
we don't have. In the 40s, they said, you know what, we need to fix this. We need a better
education system. And they put together a lot of smart people. They actually found smart people
in their country and said, how do we design a public education system that is quality that does
an incredible job of educating. And they did this really unique thing. They actually empowered
educators to be large decision makers and helping design that education system in, again, in the 40s.
So this is not something they've always had this blessed great sense of education. It was
intentionally designed and brought forth. And so what happens there? Well, I think a lot of people
rightfully say that they have probably one of the strongest, if not the strongest, public education
system, in whether you want to be, you know, and I'm, everybody knows I'm not a big test score guy,
but on test scores, Finland continues to always be on the top. The other thing though, Jacob,
which I think, you know, especially from Johnny and our point of view, they don't have a teacher shortage
problem because they actually empower, require teachers to get masters degrees. And these salaries for teachers
are continually one of the highest professions you can get for. And that was designed in the 40s
intentional to say, if we're going to have a great education system, we have to make the profession
of teaching a profession that we value and see these people who are going to be teachers as the
models that are, that we want to emulate. So people talk about, you know, what's it like to be
a teacher? Ask that question to an American teacher. Ask that question to a finished teacher.
It's incredible to hear the difference of the experience there. So when it comes to, you know,
that sense of it, I just really have, you know, spent my own time, you know, reading. And actually,
the gentleman I'm talking about, posh, he's solberg. He's actually been on a couple early episodes
of busted pencils because he spoke at some other conferences that I was at. And I had him drop in
as a guest. Everybody, though, too. You want to check it out? One of his, his favorite book
from, from educators like me, it's called Finish Lessons. Finish Lessons by posh, he's solberg.
You get it. You take a look at it. And it's just something there that's powerful. And my sense of,
it was a community that said intentionally, we want the best. And then they designed the best.
But I think the thing that really empowers me, though, is is that reality of going, if you're
going to be a teacher in Finland, you know that you are going to be held in the highest regard
in society. And that right there just creates a sense of mission in their teachers and a
profoundness where they recognize the work that they're doing. And the community members value
and see the work they do as, you know, incredibly powerful. And so there's a legitimacy to a teacher
and how the teacher moves and acts and is treated then in society. So treating your teachers
professionally, paying them well. And I will point this out because I'm afraid Johnny might come
back to remind you, they have incredibly high standards to get into their teaching colleges
to become teachers because it is such a prestigious position when you attain the role of teacher
in the country of Finland. So I'm laying it out there and as Jacob, I don't think you knew this,
but we actually, we have some Finnish listeners to busted pencils. When we were doing the live five
day a week show, some of them even listened live despite that major time disadvantage that they had.
So, hey, Finnish, our Finnish friends, if you're downloading this podcast, there it is, hats off to
busted pencils, putting it out, loving you guys, loving you women, loving you teachers over there.
And hey, busted pencils, we're ready to come to Helsinki and do live from Helsinki, Jacob,
Johnny and Dr. Tim. Busted pencil from Finland, man, that's where I'm going, Jacob.
Tim, you're on fire today. That was a very good answer, Tim, but I'm a little dense, Tim.
I'm not the smartest blade in the shed. So much like a real estate developer auditioning companies
to see who should pour his foundation, Tim, I need concrete examples, Tim. So let's say, I just
want to ask you, Tim, what's the difference? If I'm Mr. Larry Johnson teaching in Kansas City
or Mr. Kevin Lincoln and teaching in Helsinki, what is the difference in my day-to-day
being empowered in Finland? Can you give me an example of that?
The day-to-day, now this is one of the things, Finland has a national curriculum,
and so they actually kind of blow up where Johnny and I really can talk about localize. They have
a very nationally agreed upon curriculum, and so where they're headed. And so teachers really
talk about the strength of that ability to know this is what we're supposed to teach. This is
what we as a country have agreed upon, and so that clarity right there is of the teacher in Finland
in realizing that wherever they go in Finland to teach, the expectations are incredibly high,
but they're the same. And I think right there, that's a big difference here in America that
sometimes when you hear about the kind of impermeability of teachers' ability to sometimes even just
go from town to town, but let alone go from one state to the other. The disincentives that we put
in place, for example, teaching licenses in one state, not being recognized in another state.
Again, standards that are incredibly different in one state. When do you teach what, you know,
being different? You know, I taught this in third grade when I was in Iowa, now that I'm teaching
fifth grade, it's back in the curriculum. So that's an example that I can, you know, point to there.
Does that help you, Jacob? That does help me, Tim. I feel a lot better now.
Okay. I feel like an educated person. Because I wanted to put a shine on your blade.
Well, you know what, a real common one, Tim, that is in there as a strong investment in early
childhood education in the form of what they call universal education, right? So there's like
there's mandatory compulsory, what we call preschool, but it's not up to families to go find and
pay a lot of money for it's, you know, preschools become expensive like higher ed. So it's funded
learning for everyone and you won't find, and this is something I think our finished educator
friends could speak more to because they do, they experience that there are some differences,
but the differences aren't as vast. And what I mean by that is there's more equity and
equality across the schools. So there's not like, well, you're going to a bad school and I'm going
to a good school. Funding is really not, you know, leaving schools, some schools in the
lurch, well, other schools flourish. So there's more equity and equality across that. And Tim,
I think you nailed it too. Jacob, they have high, high standards for their teachers. Again,
their teachers don't go into crippling that to become teachers, but they have high, high standards
for it. Great schools. And that smart wise investment is if you put the money in to win their little,
the return is higher when they're bigger. I think on the face of it, some people would think,
well, if the standards are higher, then you'll have fewer teachers. But you guys seem to be saying
that actually having the higher standards along with more respect, more responsibility,
it all comes together into encouraging people to want to be teachers. Am I getting that correct?
Well, there's a, there's a lot of coming into the middle because this statement is a little skewed
because doctors here make a lot more money than doctors in Finland. But to often say, Finland
pays its teachers like it pays its doctors. And that speaks to Tim's, you know, statement of like
there's a high value status. Like there isn't this discourse that like teachers are just babysitters.
You know, they're just young women who don't have kids yet. That's not that sentiment that we have.
Kind of stereotype or trope of teachers only working part of the year and not really doing a lot.
And you know, they're already overpaid and all of these kinds of sentiments that exist in our
country. It's the opposite. So when I say teachers are paid like doctors, that's a common
comparison. And while my super capitalist friends remind me, you know, a doctor here makes a lot
more than a doctor in Finland, which is true, but the kind of classification, hey,
health and education are two of the really important things to that nation. And so let's
make the pay commensurable to that. And so I think you see a lot of strong teachers go into
teaching and stay in teaching. Yeah. I think the other part of this, Jacob, you're asking this question.
You know, this actually is, you know, what is a country's value system? Yeah. And you can see
that in the education system is Johnny points out when it's not just Finland. I mean, the Scandinavian
countries all in particular for me and big fans because they do. It's not just about, you know,
getting kindergarten and access to a great school, it's early childhood education. The idea
that you've got to search all over, get on waiting list to get into a high quality childcare.
No, high quality care is the norm. That's the expectation. And guess what? It pays off. And so
that value system, I think, is what carries it all the way through to realizing that,
you know, this is something that is to be respected. It's important. And you pointed out,
it's just like, you know, what is more important to the future of your country, of your people?
You know, education, the well-being, the taking care of. And so this, you know, I was being a
little flippant early on, but we could easily do this in America. I think the problem we have in
America isn't the fact about, you know, do we have enough smart people to come up with a great
education system? Do we have a agreement across all of our different cultures? And maybe more in
particular, I bet we have a lot more agreement across all of the people of our many different
cultures, but across the political class, the ruling class of this country, what do they value?
And I'm pretty sure that what we're talking about shows you the value system that we have in
America. Tim, I think Johnny has something that he would like to add. Well, Tim, you know, I think
you touched on two of the values, right? And I think you like to be a happy guy, even though sometimes
you're grumpy with the youth tone to get off your lawn and to learn more from AI and less from
social media and get off these things. Yeah, get off their phones. Put your phones away. Put your
phones with. But, you know, you've brought this up before and you did again today with the values
of the country. And you had, we had a show, I mean, a few months back when the report came out
around top-ranking countries in the index of happiness. You know, Finland is regularly in the
championship position for this. And so, you know, happy people, healthy people, well educated
people kind of going to go hand in hand. And I like how you brought that out as like a core value
system. That's it. Jacob, what else, man? I'm ready now, man. You got me warmed up. You're going to
tell me we got to wait till next time. You guys, I really appreciate you coming on the show again
this week. Great answers as always, Tim. Johnny, can I get you back next week to do this again?
I think so. Yeah, I'm definitely in Jacob. I am in. I'll talk to your people, but there's one more
thing that I do on this show every week. And it's pretty important. Let's go! Guys, I'm going to give you
60 seconds to answer this next question. We're going to start with Tim because we started with
Johnny, other thing. Tim, give me one thing that you've learned from overseas that you're going to
try to do this year as an educator. The continued statements of value to live and point out and be a
model about valuing quality education, valuing access. And so particularly in my new position here,
to really make sure that the university I'm working for really pays a lot of strict attention
and actually gets behind the idea of access for a lot of those students that have typically not
seen themselves as, quote, being part of the university, I am going to model that, go out and try
to really help more and more students show them that access to higher education. It's for all of us.
Great answer. And Dr. Jay, same question to you. What's an overseas lesson that you're going to use
yourself as an educator in this next year? Yeah, I think it's just to have more international
conversations. So, you know, being a person who likes to have conversations like we do here on
busted pencils, bringing more of that into my classroom, into my teaching, having experienced
educators from other country speak with my students, my teachers, all the folks who are part of
our education system. So we have an open dialogue because I think it's really important to learn from
outside perspectives, especially when you're going through a moment like our country is.
Thank you very much, Dr. Jay, Dr. Tim, and now for your moment of Zen.
I started studying history with one view in mind. To look for answers to the issues and problems
I saw in the world about me.
Thank you for listening to producer's choice. And if you want to grab more busted pencils podcasts,
well, you just go on over to Apple Spotify or you can always get us at civicmedia.com or on our
website, bustedpensals.com. You can always find great busted pencils content like today's show
on Mondays for Home Room, Wednesdays for Class and Session, and of course on Friday like today
for producer Jacobs Choice. And pencil busters, you know where you can always find us. You can tune in
and you can listen to the busted pencils broadcast on the weekend on Saturday at 3 pm central time
across all the civic media networks for one hour of your favorite blue collar scholars,
Tim and Johnny, and keep busted pencils.