Yeah, there it is. It's busted. Busted pencils fully let it education talk
educated educators talking education Friday you know what that means it's that
special producer's choice Jacobs on the mound Johnny Lupinachi are we ready
man I think so Tim I mean it's it's time it's Jacob's choice today man well
okay though before we get there though we got to at least mention Johnny were you paying
attention yesterday to the bromance gone bad yes and I've been getting hilarious memes and all
kinds of great great texts today at work about this and I said I mean we knew this was only a matter
of time but hilarious let's let's bask in this fun moment and and then deal with the aftermaths
later but yes I as busy as I've been I have been keeping up well then good because Jacob and I
were talking you know before the show and we're trying to figure out you know if you're a betting
person who comes out on top and my thought now is is that actually Linda McMahon will
I was not saying the Hulkster I mean it's it really it's a bromance gone bad people
listening oh what do you guys must and Trump everybody if you haven't seen it you know my goodness
come out from under your hole and stick your head out and look around but the two bromancers the
love fest it appears to be over and the I was actually funny I watched I was looking at the New
York Times today and it literally was like okay five minutes ago Trump said this two minutes go
Elon said this you know it was just a bullet it was like reading like I'm like this is the way
I used to help my third graders to settle settled disputes you just let them go back and forth
for an hour until they tire themselves out these two I don't know but Jacob not to steal your
thunder but we had to mention that I think that was important to him they I mean there's a lot
going on in the world but more importantly than that nonsense it's time for the the producer
choice show anything goes it's going to be producer's choice
you and I will have two choices chairman of the board Jacob Jacob chairman of the board
I've got the board is spelled B-O-R-E-D
we choose to go to the moon life's full of tough choices in
the
the
the
chose
one
hey that was my overproduced intro segment I put together for the for the program I shortened it just
no tiny little bit no such thing I was going to say that's shortened man I think there's no such thing
as overproduction when it's coming from you Jacob it's just fire production and I love it
thank you very much Johnny now that I can't award you extra points for for the uh
I know for the catching up I want to be clear about that but I do appreciate the kind words
Dr. Tim Slecker Dr. Johnny Lupinacci for the past two months now I have had the privilege
nay the honor of producing the greatest radio program known to man busted pencils
and while I've learned so much from you find gentlemen about our education system and become
something of an educated educator myself the fact remains that I'm still quite new around these
parts so guys that's why today our topic is one that will not only bring me up to speed
and help complete my internship here at the station but also will be a long needed accelerated
course that will help any and all new listeners catch up on the rich lore of busted pencils
I want to hear your back stories fellas you know I want to know how you became teachers in the
first place and I want to I want to find out how you two titans of industry came together to forge
this legendary show this so to start things off guys Johnny how'd you become a teacher?
Wow Jacob that's a good question um to be honest uh uh school wasn't working so great for me
I was a good high school student but after high school you know I went out and was playing hockey
started college a little here a little there and actually started as an art student and then
you know didn't really know what I wanted to go to college for but I had a summer camp experience
started working in a summer camp a few years into failed college attempts and met a bunch of
teachers who were working in a summer camp and I thought you know what man these are some cool
people they're doing some awesome stuff with kids and I got me thinking you know I've had some awful
teachers in my lifetime I've had some great ones but overall I think I I think I want to be a
teacher right now was like most things in my young early 20s say I said I was a little late to this
my early 20s like most things I was like uh well that's a good idea let's go back to you know
swinging the hammer working as a plumber hanging out with my buddies playing hockey and working
which I loved and there's nothing wrong with that either but something kept kind of nagging at me
and I was really interested in you know coaching sports being around young people and that summer
camp job that I had really kind of stuck with me like I liked that teachers were really part of
you know people's lives and I thought that would be great and I was pretty good at math as a student
and I was really good at it as a college student too even though college wasn't working for me
so I went to a counselor and I said hey I think I want to be a teacher they said well okay great
what do you want to teach and I said well I mean whatever just you could you tell me like I just
want to be a teacher I was like oh my goodness damn oh look at John I look at that you're like
ice cream so there you go okay
so you're back right you're back you're back you're back did I ice 70 that I
I'm 70 on you briefly you start to the rest after a moment the cricket animals because
funny enough I'm locked out of my college of education right now where I was going to do the show
from but looping it back around long story short um you know I haven't been good at math and
really wanting to make math classes more fun more engaging more connected with the arts and uh
and and having this sort of sense hey math math seems to be a gatekeeper like like we do math
every day on the job as as plumbers and construction as general contractors and these are some of
the best and brightest mathematicians I'm around whose school had taught them that they weren't good
at school and uh and so I you know I said I'm going to be a math teacher they said great
and flash forward a few years then I became a math teacher and a social studies teacher and even
more things and got into the whole rig and the role but Jacob that was my that was my entry
into becoming a teacher Johnny that was a that was a very good answer and uh I think there's only one
way for me to respond to that which might involved another pre-produced clip here on the show that
it worked very hard on please enjoy what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things
I have ever heard at no point in your rambling incoherent response were you even close to anything
that could be considered a rational thought everyone in this room is now dumber for having
listened to it I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul so thank you very much
Johnny I appreciated that answer that was not how I felt about your answer by the way no matter
what happened legally I had to play that clip because you know I worked on it and they paid me to do
it so I had to play I mean I love it I love it who doesn't love a little Billy Madison uh
Tim before I throw it to you same question I just want to say uh if you had any comments last week
on the show you may or earlier this week on the show you may recall you were in the car had some
connection problems Johnny was very hard on you that day yes yes and we we noticed a couple small
you know interruptions in Johnny's feed today he's in the car I mean if you have anything to say
no you know what I'm I'm just going to say that you know I'm going to be the better man
and just say hey stuff like that happens um but we are always ready to roll with people even when
they make you know profoundly bad mistakes um we're okay now I you know what though this
will you're kind of feeding into the how busted pencils but before that my teaching actually
is a little bit more direct um I my grandmother my grandmother went to college to be a teacher
um my mother was a teacher um my uncle was a teacher there was a teaching I don't know some
people talk about families of teachers there's like some kind of weird teaching gene but what I will
say is is that my teaching gene came from a much more um believe it in second grade I was very
angry at my teacher because I remember this vividly being on the school bus thinking
how in the world could she be making this day so awful school should be so fun and I am like I'm like
I am god why do teachers have to ruin my day when they're in the position to absolutely
make my day amazing to make things but I saw that and seriously people like really I'm like yeah
and that's I wanted to become a teacher largely in protest to the bad teachers I then had
throughout schooling and where some people go you mean you weren't inspired by good teachers or
your family yeah a little bit but I was more inspired by bad teachers to show how much they
didn't have to be so awful and um you know that's why I became a teacher so it came from a very
activist radical idealistic um you know ridiculously naive notion that um I had something
better to offer the world than all my other teachers and um now I was largely right
well Tim I like that that answer because it's cool to see how Johnny he met some teachers that he
thought were cool and he thought I want to be like them and you had the opposite experience where
you said I met a teacher I didn't like and that fired me up to do even better so I like that
answer second and second grade man he was a he was a ticked off second grader who held the grudge
and then and then he's so the world that anger's been bubbling up for years Tim you're finally
putting it down to the world uh we're doing kind of a round robin situation so I'll let you do
this one next Tim you you can lead us off on this second question Johnny Johnny was touching on
this earlier about how he wanted to make math more fun and cool what do you think Tim is something
that you as a teacher have seen an improvement in over some of the old teachers like what do you do
that you think Tim's making a difference in teaching as a teacher um what one of the things I
and I think I've done quite quite well over the years was is to absolutely throw away the idea of
testing assessments and grading kids um I'm was an ungraded you know what my thing was
from the even from as hard as it was to kind of pull off when I was a first year second grade
teacher to kind of say that there were no marks and and no bad grades I did that but you know you
kind of had to do that because you had mandated standardized tests and things like that but I
have always come from the standpoint of putting forward the notion to any student in front of me
that what matters to me is the efforts you put forth the the the joy and or the anger the passion
that you can bring to school and that participation um is always really all I'm looking for an
effort and guess what there is no bad there's no f there's no zero when you are engaging to the
point where you go like well but how will they know if they got nine out of 10 it's like that's
not the point my point was never to inspire kids to measure themselves it was to actually get them
to realize that learning is challenging fun painful dramatic but it should never be shameful
never be shameful and I think that was really goes back to my inspiration was to see that what
I saw was largely the the the kind of go to place in in education was to shame kids when they
didn't get the right answer and that was just something I fought and still fight and even
during lots of times found myself occasionally being sucked into ranking and sorting kids just like
the system and then finding that that would come back and go I can't do this anymore I can't do
this because as much as it looks like I was a better teacher when I was doing legitimate assessment
I felt like I was failing miserably and so that's been for me I think one of the things that I've
done differently and I've held to that and we'll even say that that kind of attitude and that
poishes how eventually getting to busted pencils the tough thing about that and you're kind of
touching out of there is it's not just changing yourself it's being part of changing the whole
system around you in the environment of of the standardization and the testing and all that
I think that's that's a good fight to fight well and you want to see you know look how successful
I was I mean you know no child left behind came in after me race to the top I was a miserable failure
at inspiring the movement I inspire if I inspired anything it was a backwards movement of going
oh my god we got to get rid of the selectors out there we need mandatory assessment shaming
and throwing people away. Yeah I don't know why you didn't stop president bushing on that one
Tim so you know you could have done better. You pull it but Johnny you touched on it a bit in your
first answer about your aspirations of what you wanted to do better what do you think you have done
better what has been the Johnny Lupinacci imprint as a teacher oh man um you know I think by and
large like it's going to sound very similar to Tim's it let's go you know yeah let's go all right
it's the whole idea that that we could do like school can be different like we could do education
and learning that's kind of what inspired me seeing these great teachers in summer camp you know
they're outside they were doing really engaging learning together and that's the same kind of
learning I had like on job sites I had really good people in the in the skilled trades teaching me
you know a whole set of rules and applied knowledge and so you know I thought you know schools
can be like this classrooms can be like that and so going into teaching with that vision and
commitment uh that mat that learning math could be fun and for everybody that learning math wasn't
just timed tests and operations of mathematics although we have to learn to multiply divide add
subtract and you know solve equations and you know find the missing you know angle in the triangle
and stuff like that there are a lot of you know tasks but that we can apply them to life and have
fun and build relationships while we're doing that and for me a big one was in meaningful ways to
not only our lives and our futures but our communities and we got to do that together so be a part
of a team so I really held that belief as a teacher sometimes in schools where it seemed really
almost impossible to do and then get to be part of schools where it was the vibe and so over time
now being able to be an educational researcher and a teacher educator you know teaching more teachers
to teach that way right to really like find their style to believe like Tim had said hey everybody
can learn and in fact we're brilliant learners and we have different ways of engaging with material
that might be taught to us so building those relationships in community and then for me guys see
in the strength of public schools as a as a community center that just kept me inspired and so be
in any kind of way telling those stories being part of those stories but being active in public
education in our in our country as a as a function of my civic duty and that's been something that
like I've been grateful to do as a teacher I stay a teacher and I'm grateful to do here on bus
busted pencils but also as a teacher educator you know in a researcher as a platform you know
to keep telling that story that we are the bedrock of our democracy we're front lines public education
public health work that couldn't be more rewarding to me you know so that's been a big thing I feel
like I've been able to contribute ways that we can continue to dare I say it emancipate education
from schooling so like I said at the beginning of this episode this is all about not just me but also
reminding the audience who you guys are where you come from and what your mission is here and I think
from what we've heard from both of you so far I can start to see why you felt it was important
to do busted pencils and to get that message of change and trying to make a difference
out of the world but I'm still left wondering how did that actually come about so if maybe you
guys can work on this answer together which would be a new thing on the program you tell me the the
genesis of busted pencils yeah I'll jump first and just get a quick so that we get to busted
pencils during that time of as we said there was me pushing against testing and Jacob you brought
it up no child left behind with no child left behind hit it really had a profound impact on me
and I really started to then actively push my future teachers to really think hard about
this law and then I had my own children were four and one years old when it first came out
but by the time my son was in third grade and my daughter was just starting school I could already
see the impact that no child left behind standardization high stakes testing was having and I just at
one point was I was started independently blogging I met another guy who was blogging for
Huffington Posts and he invited me to help their join him and Sean Johnson a great guy we then
started doing a blog talk radio show talking about these issues and we were largely just talking
about fighting back against standardized testing and then I got into the opt-out movement opted
my kids out somehow got noticed by Fox News that I was doing this and got on Fox News with
Gretchen Carlson and in one way I kind of thought this is great and launched a podcast radio show
with Sean moved to Madison Wisconsin hooked up with a great fraternity brother best friend of mine
who was doing radio at the time who said let's put this together as a radio show and
did that you know Sean went separate ways we parted ways and I launched busted pencils and
did you know nine years of busted pencils right up until the pandemic and right before the pandemic
hit Johnny Lupinachi was my guest along with a colleague of his Drew Kemp they were doing punk rock
and education and they were my feature guests on a busted pencils podcast that has never aired
to this day because we could never go it's in the vault we could never go back to the studio
and complete it but I and I know I knew and I felt that Johnny and I connected and when COVID hit
the radio station I was was working for just said well you know what why don't you do busted
pencils as a live radio show in the studio by yourself it'll be effective and I reached out the
Johnny and I said hey you want to co-host with me and we started co-hosting right at the beginning
of the pandemic and we did it like that virtually up until literally April of 23 when busted
pencils went to a radio full radio four five days a week on civic media and we met each other
for the first time in person in four years in four years that we had ever been together we met
each other in Madison Wisconsin for a live remote show that we did from a knock we're brewing
that was the first time Johnny and I ever actually met in person after hosting the show together for
four years there's a quick kind of like factually and that's what happened and we just started
and we've been doing it ever since man. Johnny Lupinachi if I could add something you know Metallica
was formed when that guy James Hetfield and Lars Ulrich started a band but they didn't have their
Cliff Burton yet and that's what really made Metallica Metallica Johnny it seems like you joined
they already had a pretty good band going with Tim but then they brought it a little something
special to spice things up what was that all about Johnny. Hey man I was awesome you know Tim
had me on the show as a guest with my as you mentioned one of my co-conspirators at the time
Drew Kemp you know we had started a zine called major threat spin off of the band minor threat and
we were writing about you know punk at punk in education and punk rock and politics and music and
and how we taught through that kind of like that kind of paradigm and with music that was political
and and so we were on the show we did a whole episode with Tim and it was awesome and we were fans
of busted pencils and I'd listen to Tim show so we knew about it and then we were on and like Tim said
it just really clicked it was an awesome show and and the covid times were just about to start up I mean
we were we recorded that show maybe a month before probably a few weeks before lockdown and then
low and ball hold and it's a little fun fact because he's still around civic media but there was
no civic media yet back then and and Luke Luke Mathers was our Purdue was our Jacob Jacob so Luke
was sitting in the seat and he riled us up and said all right you guys are going to be now on
radio and it was I think what was it called Tim a mad radio mad radio yeah mad radio and so we
were on mad radio and he said you guys just do your thing man and so Tim and I and especially during
covid we start doing our thing weekly which Tim mentioned went to daily and and here's the thing Jacob
sometimes you just can't get into the way of things that are meant to happen and these are two
guys I can't believe the first time we actually met him was in that Madison live event because
we have literally cross paths probably probably 20 times if someone was able to GPS track us
we've probably been in the same location you know as social studies guys as higher ed guys as
teachers and activism you know and different things or just missed each other by a day or so
you know here or there and so you know it's it's a miracle that we hadn't met in person before then
but then we you know we've been going ever since you know we were five days a week on civic media
live radio and then you know as we're learning these podcast drops are where the magic can happen
so it's like I don't know there must be some scientific principle about like hot air
and hot air finds each other even even through technologically mediated spaces like podcasts and radio
oh so this band metaphor I think is good so you're you're the star who joined the solid foundation
and I'm the fifth drummer who just tours with you guys several years later some glad so I have
a role to play here and I feel good about that um I take up come on no that I actually think when
we're looking at this you coming into this now and I'll say this after the few months you've been
here you've added an artistic creative flair a humor uh uh uh an understanding that has come in
and is actually helping this show re-evolve again in a way that it couldn't have happened
without you so you you're not a replacement drummer you're a new creative force that is pushing
evolution wow I'm like uh yeah I'm like a new disease that causes evolution to spark again uh thank
you Tim again flattery will get you everywhere uh we I like to end this show with my 60 second
questions that I ask you guys so uh finish things up I'll let Tim go first because he was
really nice to me Tim in 60 seconds can you tell me what do you want to do in the future to
continue your educational uh additions to this country and uh making things better wow 60 seconds
oh my god um actually I'm gonna keep doing that work which is to um elevate in johnny said this
and emancipate education from schooling and for me that is providing more access to relevant
powerful education to students who've never had access and now for me this is in the higher
education realm and creating opportunities for every member in a community to see higher education
whether it's through micro credentialing whether it's through job workforce training whether
it's somebody who said I never completed college how will will that ever be I'm going I'm now
focused on success in higher education from this standpoint of particularly those
who never really experienced the success and the joy and the power of what continuing lifelong learning
can mean I'd buy that for a dollar that was very good Tim Johnny same question you got 40 plus more
years what do you want to do with them for education oh man I love giving that giving me the 40
year clock that's exciting they uh you know at this point in my career I've been a teacher uh
I've been I've been teaching a number of years I've been a teacher educator for almost 25 now
and so I'm at a moment in my career where I'm excited about the things that young people and I
don't mean just young like like an age I mean like new teachers are bringing energy to public education
and they're part of a generation and I'm going to say they've been their their identities their
whole purpose their young adult plans and dreams and aspirations those I those things have all been
forged in the crucible of the largest social uprising of all of our lifetimes and so I get excited
about working with them what I want to do is continue to have dialogues that bring people together
that share optimism and that work to you know both oppose and propose at the same time to
the gate and create like Tim said emancipate education from schooling but through this
generative energy that people are bringing to education that was awesome Johnny that was awesome
Tim Johnny thank you both for coming back on your own show uh I really appreciate having you here
obviously you've you've both been so kind to me a lot of nice words and letting me pretend to be
a host is very sweet of you um I so I'm going to recuse myself from deciding who had a better answer
we're going to let the audience do that show that now and now Tim it's time for your moment of zin
the future is an infinite succession of presents and to live now as we think human beings should live
in defiance of all that is bad around us is itself a marvelous victory
thank you for listening to today's producers choice that's right Jacob's producers choice and if
you want to grab more busted pencils podcasts you just go to apple spotify where you can always
get at us at civicmedia.com or find us on the busted pencils website you can always get great
busted pencils content like today's show on Mondays for home room Wednesdays for class in session
and every Friday for producer Jacob's choice and of course pencil busters get ready because I know
some of you know this but you can always tune in and listen to the busted pencils weekend broadcast
on Saturdays at three p.m. central time across all the civic media networks for one hour of your
favorite blue collar scholars Tim and Johnny and keep bustin pencils
you