Yeah, there it is. Welcome to Busted Pensals fully. Let it education
fun. Educated educators talking. Education. That's what we do here. It's a
Saturday. Johnny and Jacob, man, we are really ready to go glad to see both of you
here on a on a Saturday. Hey, little secret to everybody out there listening. We
don't we record this show. We know it's not really Saturday, but we want to make
sure that everybody listening though knows that we're aware. We really
really embrace that it's Saturday. It makes us yeah, it makes us feel like it's
Saturday before it's really Saturday. So anyway, welcome everybody listening
out there on the civic media app. Anybody driving anywhere in Wisconsin, we know
that you can get Busted Pensals, all the civic media shows across every one of
those stations. Man, civic media just continues to cover the entire state of
Wisconsin with more acquisitions of more radio stations. I mean, wow, think
about it, just putting it out there, making sure that everybody knows there is
not a place right now, at least according to the coverage map that you can,
there's not any place right now in Wisconsin where the signal is is unavailable.
You can get civic media, Johnny, everywhere. Well, Tim, if that's not local radio
refreshed, I don't know what is. That's not even a line they gave me to say.
In addition to that, Tim, you know, people can always get to the media app and you can listen
from anywhere. And Tim, I bring that up because you had a long standing joke that was actually true,
but you carried it out dad style for a while, where it was our friends in Finland. Well, I
are friends in Finland this week and they said, hey, we're still listening to Busted Pensals.
We love that app because we can just tune in and check out what you guys are up to in Wisconsin.
Well, you know, that joke still lives on, Tim, that even in Finland. Is it a joke?
No, come on. We know you're actually hearing from them. They are listening in Finland.
We know that. My goodness, you know, because, hey, guess what? One of the things about Finland,
they love doing public education. Right. And, you know, I gotta say, there's a connection there
between Busted Pensals and Finland. Maybe one day a live broadcast from Helsinki or something.
Johnny, that's something we were talking about. So funny, you should tease that a little bit.
We'll have a little bit more to talk about, you know, with Jacob chairman of the boards over there.
We'll be talking with him about it and our friends in Civic Media, but yeah, they want to set something
up and maybe we might be heading over to Finland. Nice. Nice. I love it. Well, Johnny, we've got a great
guest for our show. Oh, yeah. So return guest. You were, you know, not there for that show,
but so this is your introduction to our great guest. Welcome back to Busted Pensals.
Brittany Walls. We're thrilled to have her today. She's the instructional service and educational
technology director at CISA 4. She's been at the forefront of integrating AI into rural Wisconsin
classrooms. Fresh Johnny from the ASU plus GSV summit, the premier gathering of educators,
innovators and tech leaders. She's here to share insights on how the summit's discussions and
discoveries will influence her work right there in Wisconsin from AI literacy to equitable access.
We're going to get into how cutting edge ideas from the summit can be translated into meaningful
change for rural educators and students. Welcome back, Brittany Walls. How are you, Brittany?
I'm good. Thanks for having me back. Well, you know, you were such a great guest talking about AI
and again, wanting to really stay true to the Wisconsin coverage area of Civic Media and looking
at that. I mean, you're doing great work and we want to continue to feature that incredible work
that goes on in Wisconsin schools. And in particular, the rural Wisconsin schools because so often
we don't spend nearly the time and effort talking about rural education and the things
are going on. And especially Brittany, what you're doing with that work. Okay, ASU GSV summit,
primer 101, what the heck is it? Yeah, yeah. So it's the Global Silicon Valley. So what does GSV
actually write? Like we throw acronyms all the time in education, right? So GSV is the Global
Silicon Valley and ASU is obviously Arizona State University. They partner for a innovative
kind of meeting of like the minds and all these tech gurus, education gurus and higher education.
So they really, they call it K to gray just in terms of what their offerings are for.
There's not only the show, which is a free version. It's kind of more like a space for more of
the innovators, a lot of the startups. And then they offer the summit, which is a larger kind of
more like the high end scale to really showcase what AI is up and coming and how we need to approach AI
in that K to gray space. Johnny Lupinaji, how come you are invited?
I don't know, Tim. I mean, I must have missed, you know, I'm bad at checking my mail.
Now outside of our wheelhouse, Tim, but this is exactly why we're having this kind of conversation.
And why it's exciting to have Brittany. I loved last time you were on Brittany, got to listen to
that, you know, that podcast and listeners really liked it too. You know, in the mail bag, all the
comments about it's really great to hear these conversations around ed technology around technology
and Wisconsin schools rural access stuff. And you're Tim and I have teased this, but we
think are quite a bit about AI. And I've come a long way. Then was a little bit of a more
early adopter than I was, but I've come a long way. And it still continues to be a really,
you know, important, I think important, and sometimes tense conversation for educators.
So again, like I love this conversation because what do we need to do? Talk about it. We need to
figure out, okay, so how is it being used? One of the great ways that it helps education be even
better for all of our students and teaching even better for all of our teachers. And I believe
that has that potential there. You know, there's no single technology that like changes everything.
But this is one of those technologies I feel like could really transform education in some
amazing ways. I mean, every technology has the possibility of, you know, being misused. But by
and large, the teachers I've worked with who are adopting this and are part of conversations,
like the wonderful conference that, you know, Brittany was that and the kind of work that we're
going to dive into today. I mean, they're they're seeing amazing things happen and I couldn't be
more happy for the children in those classrooms. So Tim, that's what I mean, again, outside of our
wheelhouse is I mean, a couple of old guys here, but we teach teachers and they're talking about
this all the time in our classes. And we're learning with them. And so that's always an exciting
thing too. When teachers are learning with other teachers together about how their students learn,
who we're all learning. So this is really important stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So Brittany,
so you were there, you were invited. Yeah, yeah, I'm like Johnny and Tim who weren't.
Come on. No, no, I mean, what, what, what, I mean, tell us about your access, you know, the work,
you know, why did Brittany Wells get to attend such an awesome summit? Yeah, I was very, I mean,
like you too, I was like, what is this, you know, acronym based like summit ASU GVC? I was lucky
enough. I was it was honored to be nominated as a AIK 12 innovator for this year and lucky enough
to be accepted. I did not nominate myself. You know, let's let's be real here. Let's say that,
but no, I was lucky enough to get nominated by one of the leaders in some tech spaces and just
got to get out there, got to get in front of a lot of people. And that was really incredible to see,
I think overall attendance was over 13,000. So just being able to have conversations and really
listen to some of the people that are leading this work, I think was hugely impactful.
Yeah. And so you just to refresh listeners who are returned, you know, back from saying,
what I want to hear what Brittany is saying again, the connection though too, that you had
is that you have done some work up there with the commingo, Khan Academy, and in fact another
person we had on the show Jason Fug from the Khan Academy. I mean, is that kind of your entry point
maybe then for this? Yeah, I mean, there's so many. I always tell my educators and principles
and superintendents that I work with. It's not about the platform itself. So Khan Migo,
you know, I used to say Khan Amigo, Migo like friend, right? Right.
They're like, Khan Migo means together. So I loved what they were doing with Khan Academy.
They were one of the first AI tech spaces or apps to incorporate that personalized tutoring,
but that had safeguards in place that we really take at the heart of what and how we're,
you know, putting out AI. I'm a firm believer in using the student data privacy consortium.
So really making sure these apps are protecting our students data. They're not using it. They're
not training models. And so Khan Academy was one of the first first tech companies to incorporate
that AI personal tutoring. Now you walk through the GSV Summit and show and it's like booth after
booth after booth. And so that's really where we started. But like I tell everyone, it's not
about the platform. It's about the power and how we're leveraging it to dig in deeper to have
conversations about truly innovating education, not just public, but private charter, right? But
my main focus is obviously rural public schools. Yeah. And again, that's why we want to talk,
you know, a lot about this is because again, it's one of those things. It's trendy. It's technology.
It's in and people I think have this assumption that, well, you know, if I live in a rural area
in my schools, well, we're not doing that crazy goofy stuff. But the reality is it's like
actually, Brittany, I would probably put you as as not just a rural AI leader that you're a leader
in education with really bringing AI, yes, to a rural area. But the work you're doing is truly
as you got nominated as an innovator in education. Our guest, yeah, it's Brittany Walls. She
coming to us from Cease of Foreign Wisconsin, talking about that amazing conference, ASU, GSV,
you know, it's where all the awesome cool people hang out. When we get back, though,
gonna ask a little bit more specifically, Brittany, what were you there talking about,
and then what should we be wondering about and what are you excited about? It's bus
dependencies form we get back.
Welcome back to bus defenseless. We'll let it education talk, educated educators,
talking education. As Johnny likes to say to blue collar scholars, you know, doing the work,
Jacob chairman of the boards here, producer, joining us with return guest, Brittany Walls,
instructional services, educational technology director at Cease of Foreign, talking to
Brittany, she was an AI innovator, nomination, and actually then awarded the opportunity to head
to the ASU plus GSV summit, which is a mega conference that is really putting together educators,
innovators, AI technology, all of the things that are, you know, about, or actually in a lot of
places are already happening. In fact, Brittany, so in the nomination, I mean, you know, so what did
you talk about when you were there? Yeah, that's a great question. Like, I longed it, right? Like,
no, it was just for some of the work that we're doing within some of our rural districts. So
we started a pilot program that we are calling liftoffs, and within that liftoffs model,
we're really looking at how can we leverage AI not to replace teachers, because I think that is
sometimes a rhetoric or a narrative that we hear like, AI is going to replace my job, and it,
it really like, I know that there's a fear in some industries, but really how can we leverage AI
to strengthen the work of the teacher? And in this case, really thinking about how can AI be used
for personalized learning? So, you know, looking at different platforms, different curricular
sources that integrate AI, and especially that tutoring piece, to remove the ceiling, remove
the floor for kids, and just let them go, let them have like the educational experience of,
you know, I'm bad at fractions, so I need additional practice on fractions. Whereas the
kids sitting next to me is already on to division or decimals. So I think like for the first time,
we have this technology and this capability that allows students to receive not only a personalized
pathway to approach to education, but then it also frees up that teacher to say, you know, now instead
of lecturing at you for 60 minutes about fractions, now I can actually put you on a path of your own
ability, and then I can spend time providing, you know, those re-teachings for kids that may need it.
I can push kids that may need more like application of math or whatever the content that you're looking at.
So, think for the first time, we have this powerful technology that can, that can give
teachers superpowers to do things like, you know, that I'm sure Tim, like in your ed classes,
you're telling them, UDL, productivity, and inquiry, like questioning and hands-on, like teachers
just don't necessarily have the time, the resources, the capability to actually see some of that
through, especially with a lot of the demands that we put on that. Like here's these 80 standards
that you have to teach at third grade math, or you have to teach ELA for three hours now. Like
that's just, that's not getting kids excited about school, and teachers, you know.
Boy, and that, bring me no question, I'm gonna hold on that, because Jacob, I want to know,
man, what, you know, new chairman of the boards right there, producer Jacob, Jacob,
where are you at in this AI and AI learning and stuff, you know, because you've heard
enough now, you've been with me and Johnny to know that there's, you know, a pseudo battle between
Johnny acting as some form of a luddite, and me somehow being, you know, ridiculously taken in
by the cult of AI. Where's Jacob at on this? I know that in this cold war between you and Johnny,
I've heard there's a bit more of a detente lately on AI. For me, I've used AI since it became publicly
available, you know, two, three, four years ago, both for generating images, for getting ideas,
for writing things down, putting things into the form of notes. I think AI can be a great tool
when it's used properly. I think it can be a great tool, especially when it's in a subject that
you know a thing or two about, so you can check it in case it's starting to hallucinate a bit.
Bringing AI into the classroom, I think you need to be careful with those hallucinations,
but I think we can identify, well, an AI is actually really good at this, an AI is really
accurate with this type of answer and be targeted with the implimentation of AI in classrooms.
And just when I think about a classroom, let's say a lesson gets finished being taught, normally
there's 10 kids who need clarification. If an AI can satisfactorily answer five of those 10
kids questions, then that means the other five get a better experience one on one with a teacher
getting their questions answered. So I see AI is a great tool for lessening the load on teachers,
increasing the amount of attention that students get for their questions, whether the AI answers
it really great or now the teacher has more time to answer it. Brittany, I see you nodding in agreement
there. All of it, all of it, Jacob, like especially when you talk about hallucinations, especially when
you talk about like, and you know, AI is trained off human behavior and human data and there's still
hallucinate, there's bias, you know, and there's misinformation. So I think now more than ever and
that was really evident in a lot of conversations at GSV ASU Summit was that really at the forefront
of all of this is the importance of AI literacy. And not just, here's this AI tool or, you know, like
so many kids are using Snapchat, like the little AI guy in their Snapchat account, but like how can
we really ensure students have those skills surrounding AI literacy to use it in a way
for meaning and for their own benefit. But I love everything you said. And that's what we're
feeling in schools is just simply by making some of these like first early adopter switches
with using some of that AI as that platform or that teaching platform. Our teachers are more
rejuvenated, our more. We have veteran teachers saying, I love coming to work. Like I was on the
verge of retirement. Like we have teachers like, this is renewing my, my strength and making
these smile. And that's exactly what we need and what we want. And same from the kids, like kids
love, you know, feeling success and also receiving feedback. Like kids crave feedback, you know, like
Tim, are you going to read my test? Are you going to hear that? But like we have that capability to
give that targeted instantaneous feedback for kids too. Yeah, you think about that. It's just
again, and Jacob, yeah, feeling the way you'd lay that out there nailing it. I mean, what a great
example, you know, the end of the lesson. There are probably 10 kids who still have some questions.
That was the reality for any teacher teaching a lesson. And, you know, the sad reality of those
10 students was is that the teacher then couldn't really get to all of their needs. Just because
you can't, right? And great teachers do their best. But now AI, you know, has the potential
to reach, and Jacob, he put it was great. Five of those 10 can jump on with AI and get
what it was that they're not understanding what they're missing. And now all of a sudden,
the teacher can really do that individualized deep instruction for those other students that need
to, you know, to really have that interaction with the teacher. And Brittany, the way you were
framing that too, and you did, you talked a lot about that on the, on the last time you were on
the show about the rejuvenation aspect that it does for teachers, because now they're not
feeling overwhelmed and overloaded. They're feeling inspired and empowered by the ability to do
the deep types of educational inquiries and support. Hey, it's busted pencils. It's fully
letted education talk. We're going to have more with Brittany Walls when we get back.
I know you're out there dancing because that's what we do on busted pencils every Saturday.
Jacob, thank you for that music. Hey, it's Dr. Tim Slecker. And yeah, it's busted pencils fully
letted education talk, educated educators, talking education, talking AI education, talking rural
Wisconsin AI education. In fact, innovator, one of your own in Aaron Wisconsin,
Brittany Walls from CS4, she was at that ASU GSV summit presenting what's going on in Wisconsin,
particularly in the rural areas. Brittany, one of the themes so that at the conference is this issue
of AI and equity. I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about how you see this issue
of AI equity, specifically you and then what are the issues dealing with equity in rural schools
and AI just help me figure this out. Yeah, I think that word equity can mean so many different
things, right? And so when we were, it was really evidence, just while we were out there,
I think conversations on only higher education, like the universities who are having professors
use it and encouraging students to use it. And then there are still those that are locking it down
and saying academic integrity and misuse, right? So the word equity is really just that like new
digital divide, like who has access to using AI and who doesn't and who's learning about it.
I always tell educators like are we allowing students to learn about it and with AI? So like that
tandem parallel for AI integration into schools. And I think that was evident, especially with the
word equity, with rural schools, we oftentimes joke like they don't oftentimes get a lot of like
the technology or they don't get a lot of like the support, they might not even have a tech
director to help implement this stuff. So, but we feel, especially my colleagues and our
liftoffs work with Cecil Thor is we really feel like the rural districts are prime for some of
this innovation. There's less red tape, there's less committees and meetings and we have to check
this box before we check that box. It's more, you know, boots on the ground. Let's do this.
Like we know this is best practice. We know that this is helping kids. So I think the rural education
is prime for some of this truly transformative education. And we saw that at GSV ASU. It was very
clear and made very evident that for the first time public education has competition. You know,
we know a lot about school choice and ESAs, which are educational savings accounts that are
popping up in schools or in states. So I think that was very, made very evident that for the first
time, we have more choice in education. And and I, rural education is the lifeblood of so many of
our Wisconsin communities. Right. So that's really where we're primed and ready to take this over
and to storm through innovation and structural change for schools.
Well, you know, and you pointed out, I think, you know, what people think rural, okay, you know,
behind the times, right? You know, you guys are probably still using white chalk and black boards.
You know, maybe, maybe you guys have a landline, you know, telephone, you know, but
and yeah, I know that's over the top. But the fact of that you're actually saying like we have
access to this, you know, where we're at in rural Wisconsin, I can also hear somebody saying,
okay, and I heard you guys mentioned on on me go on Academy. Are you guys saying then that rural
schools, the only way they can have access is by creating these kind of quasi commercial partnerships.
And, you know, can you hear somebody out there saying, wait a minute, our schools shouldn't need
to partner with multi-billion dollar, you know, hedge fund managers, tech companies, you know,
wait a minute, this is, this is bad news. I know what Brittany's talking about is great education,
but darn it, those commercial interests are going to take over and do bad things to our kids,
Brittany. I mean, I can hear that. I can hear that rhetoric. I always tell everyone it is not
about the platform. You know, we use Khan Academy, which has Khan Migo, like their AI Tutorbot,
we use Esparc, which has their own, I met with an ed tech company this morning about theirs,
like we are really, truly not saying it's about the platform, because you can build your own platform,
you can build your own AI Tutorbots, like you can, you can do all that stuff. Sometimes it's that
capability and like I think you mentioned before, Jacob and I think Tim, you know, there's,
there's a lot of like training that goes into it, really making sure the teachers have AI
literacy, so I don't necessarily think it's partnering with the big conglomerates or the hedge funds
or whatever it is, but at the same token to see all of these hedge funds and the Walton Foundation,
and you know, just Google and OpenAI, which is ChatGPT, all presenting out at the GSV Summit,
it was very clear that they want a partner, and every time I said, Role Wisconsin or Role
Education, they were like, boom, beeline to us, like they, they, they personally are the same way,
like, yep, we want, yep, we totally believe in this, like this is, this is how we're truly going
to transform education, and it starts sometimes in our, in those small rural communities,
and I, I think like there's a statistic that just, just popped up that says, you know,
65% of the jobs are elementary students will have, don't exist, so, and in Spotify,
I don't know if you saw the CEO, they just made, he just released the memo saying,
no longer will they be hiring humans, and from here on out, humans have to like, almost justify
why they are like needed in this company versus an AI, so, you know, hearing from some of these,
I know, but like hearing from some of these tech clanglamorans, or these big hedge funds,
sometimes they are at the forefront of this education, you know, these, these technologies,
and I think partnering only makes the ability to figure out how to implement that much stronger.
Well, yeah, and you know what, you, let's go back to that, the 65% of the kids in elementary school,
the jobs that exist now won't be the jobs you were saying, right, for them, was, did I get that right?
65% of the jobs that they will hold, don't exist. Don't exist in it, yeah, they won't, okay,
and, and you know, what does that mean? Well, you know, you could fight that and be upset that
that statistic is out there, you may even want to, you know, wrestle with it and even say,
that's nonsense, it's not going to, well, you know what, okay, so maybe it's 50, maybe it's 40,
whatever it is, the reality is is that, guess what, AI and jobs, it's happening, it's already
happening, Brittany, your example right away to Spotify, and as I said, it's frightening that
they're, quote, not going to hire humans, I can hear people out there going, see, I told you,
this is the end, and we need to be thinking about that and worried about that and having discussions
about ethical AI for sure, but we can't put our head in the sand, our heads in the sand,
those of us in education, and act as if we shouldn't be providing students and communities and
families the opportunities to become at, you know, at least AI literate because the reality is
is that it's going to be part of just having a job, you know, and in fact, you know, is, is,
I've put this quote out there, I'm pretty sure it's from Scott Galaway from the PROTG podcast
in Pivot, I really like him, but he made the point, you know, it's like AI is not going to take
your job, although maybe Spotify is going to push on that, but somebody who knows how to use AI
will take your job, Brittany. Yeah, no, that's what we keep really pushing to, and I think the other
thing that is so you, like, not, I wouldn't say unique, but one of the things that we truly stress
with this, with our liftoffs approach, again, it's not about the platform, it's about
empowering the educators to think about what are those future-ready skills, because I mean,
I mean, fat, you know, 15, 20 years ago, we heard 21st century learners and 21st centuries,
we're a quarter of the way through, like, stop using 21st century skills and start to really call
out what are the future skills, and I think that was evident. I think every, you know, I was blown away,
one of the things I noticed, and I talked to my colleagues, because I was, I, I brought, I was able
to bring two superintendents, my boss and a coworker out with me to the summit and the show,
and we were looking through all of the sessions, and one thing that really struck a chord was,
yes, it was all about AI, but more, more than ever, it was about human-centric skills, and like,
what are the future skills that kids are going to need to be able to chart their own future and
path in a world that we don't know what it looks like? And so, like, you said AI literacy,
which was a huge one, but a lot of what we, we're in discussions with, was if, okay, if we can use
the AI platform to provide some of those, you know, tier one, like some of the drill kills,
you know, math, science, social studies, ELA kind of stuff, how can the teacher be freed up to
bring in more collaboration, critical thinking, problem solving, goal setting with self-awareness,
and so we, we really look at that as like, what are, what are social emotional skills that kids
need to navigate in the future workplace? And that's, that's really at the heart of everything
we're doing. Yeah, I think about that, and, you know, I made a little bit of a, you know,
off of that side, though, is ethics, right? Ethical, like, when do we use AI? And when should we,
because we can, should we use AI in these situations, right? I mean, and I'm looking at this now back
to, you know, the future of higher education, is, is that, you know, people are like, well,
what's going to be the role of the humanities? And it's like, actually, if you think about this
seriously, there is more need for those deep critical thinking, philosophical, ethical ways to
get at answers to questions that is more important now than ever. And so, Brittany, you know,
last three minutes here before we have you, you know, I see you nodding on that,
just give you an opportunity to go too. So, what do you think you're going to bring back,
or have you brought back to CISA 4 and Royal Wisconsin? And, you know, what do you,
where do you think you might be going? Yeah, I think that's a very, that's a big question.
I know, I know. I mean, it was like a whirlwind. I think we looked at each other like even,
you know, I was, like I said, I was able to bring two superintendents from White Hall and
to leave a strum, so two of my real school districts. And I think we all looked at each other
and we were like, whoa, like we are over, like this is a lot to take in. I really think it's just
continuing our work forward, pushing it forward, you know, really wrapping around AI literacy,
even for our youngest learners. And then how can we really strengthen some of those future
ready skills within our students and make meaningful educational experience for kids?
And I think that's the big one, right? If we can, if we can give our teachers the super power of AI,
how can our teachers now be poised more than ever to re-innovate education? Because there's
nothing more that I hate hearing is that education is broken or education, like that rhetoric.
I push back on that rhetoric and say it is just outdated and we need to re-innovate ourselves.
And that's truly what I'm bringing back is this renewed faith that we are on the right track,
and we're doing what we need, especially for the most critical communities that are really the
lifeblood of our economy here in Wisconsin. Wow, think about that. Yeah, in the CESA 4 area,
that's what's going on, man, rural education, AI education, return guests, Brittany Walls,
Brittany, man, I tell you what, we are just going to want to continue to check in with you.
Talk about those superintendents too. Hey, you know, I'd love to hear from them, man, you know,
hear what's going on, like how they make sense of this. Hey, and if you're out there
predicting the CESA 4 area, man, check out what they're doing, you know, give them some support,
they love it. Brittany Walls, thanks for busting pencils. Thank you guys.
Hey, guess what, Jacob and Tim are going to break it down when we get back.
Yeah, you hear that music, you're like, wait, they're already at the end. Yeah.
Spusted pencils fully-led education talk, educated educators, you know what we're doing,
we're talking education, great guest. CESA 4, Wisconsin's own Brittany Walls returning
back, talking about the global Silicon Valley summit with Arizona State University.
It's the big, most awesome conference where ed tech technology, all these people get together
and kind of tell us when it was Brittany was nominated as an innovator and education, she
got that and she was there and invited to be there and talking about the work they're doing
in rural Wisconsin. So Jacob, you got to listen to this conversation. You know,
even kind of gave a sense of your AI though. What, you know, you're a younger dude.
I am. You know, I mean, is it, if you were imagining, you know, being a student, just,
would you have liked to have had AI as something to engage in while when you were in high school
and middle school? Oh, I would have loved Tim. I would have absolutely loved to have an AI
in middle school and high school because I would have used it to cheat. That would have
been amazing because the amount of ways that you can use an AI to help
know things that you do not actually know. I approve of that and I would have done that
absolutely. Oh, you just pointed out the issue of ethics and policy right in that statement
right there. Because I'll go back to this. I said, Jacob, you know, I mean, that is kind of like
the big, well, you know, if we just leave let AI in, they're just going to use it to cheat
and kids kids are going to get lazy and those who don't know anything are now going to give the
appearance that they know stuff. And maybe even more horrible is that they're going to believe
that because they have AI, they know things they don't really know. Some of you're talking about Jacob.
I think that's a danger of it. Obviously, like you're saying, to quote Donald Rumsfeld, there's
a lot of unknown unknowns involved with AI and that could be a problem. But I think one of the
things that was raised here is the issue of not just saying get rid of AI because kids are going
to use it to cheat. And part of the reason I would not like that to be the stance that people take
on it is because for me, I was in college when the pandemic happened and I noticed a change in how
college worked, which was that everything moved online. And from that moment forward,
cheating was very easy. Tim, you can look anything up. Hey, we're going to put a thing on your
browser. So we see what you're doing. Well, guess what? I own a mini computer Tim that I also have
that isn't being monitored. So the issue of cheating at large or shortcuts or whatever you want
to do it is so much more pervasive than an AI tool that's just cutting off one particular piece
of the education puzzle to try to deal with a larger problem. I think that we need to reorient
how we do things have a different approach to education with the knowledge that we can't teach kids
like it's 1955 because they now have supercomputers in their pockets. So I don't know if math has changed,
did math change with the calculator? How we ended up teaching mathematics to kids? We don't use the
advocates anymore for the fifth graders. So I think there needs to be a much larger structural
reform and not just shut out new tools. Yeah, well, you know, I'm all for bringing back the
advocates because, you know, what? No, you know, and Johnny has talked about that because he,
you know, he's a math teacher and the calculator is it's a tool. And I actually own the calculator
one. We've kind of wrestled on that and I see AI is a little bit different than a tool, but back to
cheating. I was talking about with Brittany higher education and there's a great piece out in the
chronicle of higher education. Are you ready for the AI university author Scott Latham? And,
you know, just in case he's out there listening, we invited him Jacob by sent him an email inviting
him to come on the show to talk about this. But I want to, you know, read from his just a quote here,
a higher education colleges have chiefly responded to the initial stirrings of this revolution
by getting mired in a tired debate about academic ethics. Students cheated before the advent of AI
and they will continue to cheat for years to come. Even if a new app could detect and prevent all
a enabled student work, it would be inconsequential to AI's inevitable spread throughout colleges
and higher education. If your interest in AI doesn't extend beyond cheating, you're missing the
bigger picture. I would absolutely agree to that that gets at right at what I was saying. I mean,
cheating is pervasive now and to throw away AI as a tool just focuses on one narrow aspect of it.
Yeah, you know, you put that out there and I just, I think people are missing. And even missing,
I think the argument about cheating actually is really at this point, it's an old argument made
by people who are just doing everything they possibly can to stall as if they're going to stop this.
Hey, there's so much going on AI in education, but Jacob, you know what now is?
Wow, I don't know Tim. It's, well, it's time for your moment of Zen.
And if we do act in however small a way, we don't have to wait for some grand utopian future.
The future is an infinite succession of presence. And to live now as we think human beings should live
and defiance of all that is bad around us, it itself is a marvelous victory.
Thanks everybody for listening to busted pencils on Saturday. Hey, make sure though,
you got to come around on Monday, home room. It's out there Wednesday classes in session, Friday,
hurdles and home runs, home runs and hurdles, you know, and then back again Saturday. We love it.
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