This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
Ah, there it is.
It's a home with Busted Pencils fully-ledded education talk,
educated educators talking education.
Yeah, here we are.
Home Room, Johnny Lupinacci,
Jess Producer, my two friends.
How are you guys doing this morning?
Doing great, Tim.
What a great way to start the week.
You know, I love seeing you all.
And then it's a special Monday because this home room includes,
well, I'll let you spill the beans for the listeners,
but it's a special one.
So, jump right into it.
Yeah, we have an incredible guest.
What would Matt Damon's mom say?
Wait, what?
You want to know what my mom would say?
All right, well, just ask her.
Dr. Nancy Carson,
Paige, welcome back to Busted Pencils.
How are you?
Well, it's great to see all three of you
and to be together with you for the first time since the election.
And I'm looking forward to talking with you about it.
It's been unsettling time for me.
I've definitely done a lot of reading and processing and thinking,
you know, what that is,
thing thing about all the different aspects of the situation
and this time that we're in.
It's not a simple.
You can't reduce it to one idea.
It's extremely complicated.
And I think it's helpful for us to try to name what the different
aspects of the situation are and the influences.
But, you know, nobody really knows a lot at this moment in time
about where we are and where we're going.
I love how you just did that because we were going to ask you too.
If you could name this moment,
we've had guests, Dr. Kevin Kumichiro, Bill Areson,
who've been using that moment.
So the fact that you're kind of looking at that.
Yeah, it's.
And so in one way to name the moment is go,
well, I can't really do it with one word or one answer.
But it is complicated.
And you say, you know, we, we haven't talked to you since before
the election.
And before the election, we were hopeful.
We were joyful.
We were just, you know, kind of running.
I remember, Jess, we were so excited.
We were thinking, oh, this is going to be great.
And then what, what, what, what, what?
And, you know, in part of that, Nancy, as you said,
I mean, it's just like a bewilderment was, was a sense
of how I felt of going, wow.
So what do we do?
Nancy, what, what are you thinking?
Help us understand, you know, that, that day after where you were
and now here we are, you know, less than 30 days away from an,
from inauguration.
You know, I, I thought about my friend Howard's in many times.
I've missed him terribly through this because he would have,
I'm telling you, he would have found some way to be funny.
I don't know how.
And also, um, he would have been positive.
Because that was his middle name.
And there was no getting around that.
So he would have focused on the fact that, um,
half, half the people did not vote for Trump.
He would focus on the fact that the, the majority of people
who elected Trump is really still a small percentage of the
total population because, you know, only two-thirds of the
people are less vote anyway.
And so presidents get elected by a much smaller majority of
people than, um, sometimes it's portrayed as.
Um, and also he would have emphasized, like he always did,
that taking the long view and, and understanding history
helps us to cope with any moment we're in.
That's a difficult moment in history, which this one certainly is.
Um, although I, I must say, I, I think the conditions that we,
um, how he's been gone now for 11 years or so.
I think the conditions we have right now are, are unique.
Yeah.
And we haven't had them before and, and how he didn't see them.
So I, I can't just rest on the advice that he would share with
me through all of our many conversations.
For one thing, we have a greater, you know, in wealth and,
uh, wealth inequality, um, in the United States.
And we've ever had.
We've never had, we, you know, these kinds of statistics,
I used to quote about El Salvador and Nicaragua.
We have like three people who have more than 50% of the wealth,
wealth, more three people have more wealth than 50% of the population come on.
Right.
And then on top of that, we have, we have, um,
social media that, that how he never saw it all,
that's played a huge role in so many different directions.
And, um, and there's so much misinformation and disinformation
that gets disseminated because of that.
Um, even the information flow industries change so much.
It's hard for us to get a handle on it.
Um, but a lot of people believe phenomenal conspiracies.
Even in people in Congress, and even Trump himself, you know,
believing he won the election over Biden, et cetera.
I mean, these, these things are not some of the things.
I know people who believe in conspiracy theories,
and they tell me that there is an I'm a gas.
You know, and I always say where did you hear it?
And they say Fox News, but they take it as fact.
And then the other aspect that I don't hear people talking about,
maybe they are, and maybe you guys are.
But I think some of what we see is a reflection of our education system
that has been taken over by the right for the last 25 years.
And people haven't learned how to think critically,
how to tear a fact and not take it at face value.
But dig under it to see what are the possible ways to look at that?
Or what is the contradictory information?
Or where is the information coming from?
And what might the biases be?
And all of those things we need to do is thinking citizens.
And we took that out, Nancy.
You made me think back to our first meeting,
2010, Washington, D.C.
That protest to reclaim our schools, save our schools.
Matt gave the key, one of the keynotes, and you did too.
And we thought at that moment, we saw it.
We saw the intentionality of stripping the curriculum
of those deep, meaningful opportunities where people get to engage.
You know, people like, no, we're just trying to increase math
and we're increasing literacy scores.
You said, no, you're stripping away the soul of public education.
It's foundational commitment to preparing democratic critical citizens.
That's what's at risk here.
And yeah, I think when you point that out,
here we are now in 2024.
And really, too, we can point out that this has been going on in earnest.
Since 1983, a nation at risk even longer.
The intentionality of scrubbing the soul away from public education.
Is it any wonder, because 85% of the population is in public schools,
that we've now ended up with a potential ability.
And I don't want to say, is it a miseducated?
It's not uneducated.
But to realize that we have stripped out the heart and soul of the curriculum
in a way that the ability to have deep conversations of complexity of disagreement,
where we dig into these, they just don't exist anymore.
And it's not surprising to see my uncle at the Thanksgiving table
with a full on conspiracy theory that, you know,
pushes him in the standpoint where he looks at, you know,
13 of his relatives as crazy,
and that he's the only sane one in there.
And you go, how did this happen?
I experienced exactly the same thing at the Thanksgiving table.
So then it comes to how you look, we are in a country right now
that is severely polarized.
And thinking has become black and white.
And that's a very primitive way to look at the world
because it's complicated.
And there aren't easy answers.
I mean, we'd love to have them, but they're just aren't.
I do think, you know, some of the things Bernie Sanders has said
about the inequality and the pent-up frustration
and the feeling, I think, a lot of people in the country have
that they've been left behind,
and even resent, you know, the elite,
the education elite, the politically elite,
they're left out.
And some of this vote was that just being pissed off about that.
And hope, just like, just sick of the status quo.
And unfortunately, Kamala couldn't separate herself
from that perception, obviously.
Yeah, same time she, what she is actually a member of the status quo.
And I think people want change.
What I think how he would have agreed that what we need
is a leader who speaks like Bernie, but it's 20 years younger.
Yeah.
You know, like Johnny Lupinacci.
Yeah, like you, Johnny.
I don't know about that.
When you guys come on, fit out there and run.
Yeah.
Well, we do talk about that here on must-of-penses.
I think it's encouraging educators to be thinking about, you know,
putting their voice to public service and that capacity.
They are such great leaders in our communities already
and making such change through their classrooms.
Nancy, that brings me to this too.
Like, thinking about our teachers out there.
Thinking about all the folks who are now in the classroom.
You know, any sage words of wisdom for our teacher listeners out there
who are also like part of naming this complicated moment.
You know, I went to an event recently with the staff
from rethinking schools and this in education project.
And the whole evening was focusing on the creative work
they're all doing.
And this was a week after the election.
And nobody talked about it.
And all they were talking about is the work they're doing.
That's what we, Johnny.
That's what we have to do.
We have to focus on the work that we're doing.
And what we know is the right kind of work to that we've always
been doing in education.
And we have to keep on doing it.
We're going to have some more obstacles because Trump really
is going to go after, you know, an inclusive.
What he calls DEI, you know, or critical race theory,
whatever want to call it.
But they're, they very much want to ban books and take out diversity
and it's many expressive forms from education and critical thinking.
So we have to be on alert, man.
We have to be on alert and do what we can.
With the support of the networks, we have you guys are one really critical network
that you're providing a support system for all the listeners who care
about progressive education.
And the Zen project, how are we so thrilled if you knew that 100,000 teachers
are getting curriculum materials that they wouldn't otherwise have
in a lot of the red states.
So there's, there are things we can do during this time.
But it's going to, it's not going to be easy.
You made me think of that too.
And I kind of this question.
I'm going to loop it together here.
You know, how do we get here?
The Democrats, you know, they're, they're, you know, they participated
in the, the, the, the attack on public education.
Nancy, we did that.
You know, you're saying this.
Is there an opportunity here to do?
Because you said, you know, my, my neighbor, my neighborhood, 50%
a lot of the people here voted for Trump.
We had this weird phenomenon that we've been pointing out on the show,
you know, particularly like in Kentucky, a great illustration where,
you know, 76% of the population voted down vouchers.
In fact, so in other words, voted for their public schools.
But then 80, 20 went for Trump.
And the reality of that kind of like, you know, what is going on with,
with that and to realize, well, you know, I mean, this is the thing.
Democrats beating up on public schools.
That was not a winning position.
Now as we're coming in and going, you know, you see, you hear the,
the kind of looking back, the 2020, how do we get, get back?
You're saying all this in education project, rethinking schools.
Is there an opportunity for Democrats to drop the standardized going
after teachers blaming schools and really launch into saying diversity,
equity and inclusion is defined by good teaching deep history,
the ability of our public schools to be that foundational movement in communities
where like in rural Kentucky, 75% of their population said,
you're not touching our public schools and realizing that how we can launch
this into an effort that says, actually, we know a lot of people love their
public schools.
Democrats, what are you going to do to harness that power?
You know, it's been one of the tragedies to me is that the Democrats joined,
basically joined and even escalated the education reforms that were started
by Republicans.
And Obama was, it was such a tragedy that he really, as Diane Raver said,
did no child left behind on steroids with his education plan.
I don't understand why the Democrats have not been able to support quality
social justice education.
It doesn't make sense to me.
It never has.
And I don't, I don't get that even progressive Democrats.
They've never spoken out even Bernie Sanders.
They've never spoken out about the kind of education we know is best for all kids
and for a democratic society.
Well, I think on that one too, we've heard this is that well, you know,
because some of that criticism then that would come into that deep kinds of learning,
it would go up against the quote rolling class of which Democrats and Republicans
belong to in that sense and that was that missing going, you know,
there's only, it's only so far we're going to go and criticizing the status quo.
And Democrats aren't part of criticizing quote to status quo.
They're not, they're just not part of that.
And guess what though, they lost because now they seem so disconnected from the reality of,
of, of, of our, of our, of our neighbors, they're just not connected in, in that way.
I think if you wanted to say one core point, it would be that,
that the democratic party abandoned the working class or became disconnected
from working people.
And I think we saw that in this election.
And it's sad, but it unfortunately, they're tied in so much to big money, corporate money,
just like the Republicans, of course you know this, I mean big corporations give money to both parties
because as long as they can keep the power in place and the status quo as it is,
that's what they want.
So yeah, the democratic party's got to do some deep soul searching.
And I don't know if they're capable of it because it means giving up some things
and not holding on to power and money that keeps them comfortable.
But they are not serving the needs of the majority of Americans.
Johnny, drop that number, man.
Yeah, I mean, if you want to join this conversation, please listen to us.
You can always leave us a voicemail or drop us a question or a comment at 608-557-8577.
That's 608-557-8577.
We love when you join the conversation.
Wow, it's great to have Nancy here.
Tim, this is a great conversation.
Jess, thanks for all you do.
This is awesome.
You know, I'm thinking about this, especially Nancy and Tim,
as you're both talking about, you know, we're not just picking on one administration here.
We're really looking at decades and decades of federal policy nation at risk
and to no child left behind into the every student succeeds act, right?
And looking closely at race to the top being no child left behind on steroids, right?
And where are we?
What is it going to be?
And of course, busted pencils here, fully-led education talk with education champions
like Dr. Nancy Carlson Page.
Tim, it's such an honor to have this conversation and to keep having it,
because I love what Nancy shared today.
Those of us on the front lines, like the great teachers participating in the ZIN project
and working with rethinking schools.
And all you great teachers out there who are doing that work,
that we focus on that creative and generative energy that is,
is everything that democracy stands for needs.
So we need more of that.
We need to celebrate that at every opportunity we have.
So I love that, that, that point of action.
Let's keep telling the story and keep doing the good work
and demanding them from those people, the elect to leadership,
that they better represent the needs of our community,
and especially the needs of children and families in our diverse communities
through stronger public education.
It's that simple.
You want a strong democracy, you strengthen public schools.
So let's look to where that's happening.
So teachers and classrooms doing that, keep up that good work.
And remember, you can join the conversation at 608-557-8577.
Well, I appreciate that.
Dr. Nancy Carlson Page, I know we're going to have to have you come back
for the developing story there of...
Yeah, I'd like to talk with you about it.
The reason is it is a developing story.
And it's actually exemplary of everything we've just been talking about.
Yeah, and what we're referring to here is that some parents are suing.
And again, this is a unique case.
The science of reading push, they are going after Lucy Calkins,
Pinellas, Pinella, and actually the...
It's Gaysu Pinell and Irene Fountis.
And I just like to say Irene is a close colleague of mine.
She... I was on the faculty when we brought her there
and we were thrilled to have her there,
because she's a brilliant educator.
But all of this polarization we're seeing with everything else
is happening right in our field.
And we do need to talk about it more in depth,
because it's wrong.
It's really scary.
And we have to really address it head on.
Yeah, and this really is an attack on.
We said that the depth, the complexity of education,
and the simplifying, and really stripping down and sterilizing it.
But, you know, unique case.
So we're talking about going after then the researchers,
the curriculum developers and the companies around balance literacy
and some of the whole language.
And essentially saying a generation of students can't read
because of these researchers, these curriculum developers,
it's frightening.
Taken Nancy Carlson page.
You got, look like you got one more comment there.
Well, I was just going to say attacking these individuals
when we have a whole country of inequality,
systemic underlying inequalities,
and inequalities in schools,
vastly, and in public schools,
and we're going to blame the individual people
who love kids and develop curriculum to try to help them read.
It's crazy world, you guys. It's crazy.
It's a crazy, crazy world.
Well, my name is mom, Dr. Nancy Carlson page.
Thanks for busting pencils with us again.
Yeah, thanks for letting me do it, guys.
I enjoy it. Thank you.
Please stop bothering me and just ask my mom already.
And now for your moment of sin.
I am convinced that imprisonment is a way
of pretending to solve the problem of crime.
It does nothing for the victims of crime,
but perpetuates the idea of retribution
thus maintaining the endless cycle of violence in our culture.
Thanks everyone for starting your week right with home room.
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