This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
Yes, it is. Busted Pencils fully-ledded education talk,
educated educators talking education, man.
Already the end of the first week of December,
what in the world is going on?
Johnny Lupinacci, my goodness, man.
You know, here we are doing Busted Pencils every Saturday,
three o'clock like this, you know, educated educators talking education.
You're up in the state of Washington doing that teacher education thing.
I'm in Ohio here just, you know, rabble rousing,
getting things moving along the way.
And I just love, though, that every Saturday we get to get together
with you, producer, Jess, and record Busted Pencils for all those listeners.
And if you're a new listener out there, we particularly want to hear from you.
Yeah, we have our own ability to you to put in your comments,
608-557-8577.
That's the number for the Busted Pencils mailbag.
Any comments or questions?
In fact, if you want to ask Tim Rajani anything about their favorite hair care products,
608-557-8577, that's the number.
Johnny had to put it out there.
That's a random reference to, you know, both have great radio faces.
But if folks want to ever, you know, catch the YouTube,
there's sometimes a nice video feed of our shiny bald heads out there.
And you might relate to if you also are part of that, you know,
no hair nation that we are a part of by our aging, you know.
But, you know, you can, you can get that.
That's Tim's reference to that.
But Tim, I'm excited because today we got a special conversation.
I mean, we've been talking for weeks now about like, what's to come?
Where do we go from here?
How do we take action as educators?
Listeners, if you're new to the show, Tim and Tim and I both teachers,
talking out to a lot of teachers, we became professors of education.
So we teach teachers.
We also do a lot of educational research.
And what that means is we research a lot about, particularly Tim and I,
the role that schools play in our society.
How public schools matter to our communities.
And that's a complicated political and socio-economical question.
How those schools matter?
What's the purpose of education and democracy?
And Tim, we got one of our favorite guests because he writes about this stuff.
He also researches this stuff.
But, man, does he bring a lot of good points?
A moment.
And we've been talking a lot about name in the moment.
But today, let's have a conversation about, so what are some ideas about where do we go from here?
Yeah. And we've got, you say, you know, again, return guests for first time listeners.
So you're going to love this guest.
Jonathan Gerkko.
Welcome back to Busted Pencils.
Jonathan, first, publicization, the book.
How's it doing?
What do we know about it?
In fact, we interviewed you first about publicization.
Tell us a little bit about where everything stands with that awesome book.
Well, thanks, guys.
It's great to be back.
You know, you said you've got faces for radio.
I've been told I've got a voice for print.
So I apologize this scratchy tenor to your listeners.
They'll have to put close captioning on.
Great to be back.
We first became friends because of my book publicization.
What's the opposite of privatization?
We can't beat something with nothing.
And after a lot of years of thinking and a few years of writing,
put forth an idea about how we make education more public, right?
And the big idea is twofold.
A public good are things that can't be excluded.
So let's just get rid of all the ways people are excluded from great schools.
And that happens in lots of ways in our district schools and private schools.
You name it.
And the second big idea is a school's public when it prepares citizens,
workers, neighbors, and stewards of the planet for really big public goods,
on which we all depend.
And I'd love to see and recommend in the book lots of ways we can promote
school's ability to not exclude and prepare citizens, workers, neighbors, and stewards of the planet.
So the book's doing well.
That's sort of part of my night job as a adjunct professor at Teachers College,
Columbia University.
Go Lions.
Hey.
And separate from my day job at AQ,
which you guys have been great in talking about how we are strengthening college professors'
ability to teach, because we were not taught how to teach.
And my goodness, can our careers change and can students' lives change
when we bring great teaching practices into the college classroom?
And AQ, that's the association for college and university educators.
10 years now, Jonathan, you've been at that work.
Jonathan, don't be so humble.
He's one of the founders of that organization.
That's comment there.
I see you.
Well, you know, 10 years, you know, people say, oh, this is, you know,
this is like a stealing fire from the God's idea of great teaching in every college class.
What my friend who said that for God was a prometheus in return for stealing a firing
idea from the God's every single day,
crows eight his liver painfully and then it grew to grew.
So 10 years of having my liver, he is, is another way to think about it.
It's hard work, but it's, it's good work.
And I tell my, my teacher, I'm in a class for AQ right now.
I tell my teacher every week when my homework's late.
Don't worry, Jonathan, that it was okay.
Oh, that's it.
Pull on the, pull on the president of AQ card.
I love that more.
Jonathan said it's okay.
This one's coming in late.
No, actually, they're very, I mean, it's a great course.
We can get into it.
That's not really the topic of the day.
But it is, it is, it is really good work, Jonathan.
It's, you know, I'm a veteran teacher.
It's making my teaching better than it's ever been.
And, and I see that happening each week.
As I pull out through the modules and the readings and the work.
I'm going to get great feedback on some pretty awesome stuff that.
To be honest, I, as a veteran teacher, I thought I had a pretty robust toolkit.
And I, and I added to that toolkit quite a bit this semester.
So appreciate that.
That's great.
That's great to hear.
And you know, you know, as much as this work is about the professors, right?
Becoming better teachers.
I try to be really transparent with my students about why we're doing this activity
or how it connects to a big idea, learning objective.
And they are so appreciative of that transparency.
It's amazing how simply transparency.
Is a teaching technique proven to deepen persistence, engagement, deepen learning.
My students are so responsive to the respect they feel when I say,
here's why we're doing this today and how it will deepen your learning.
Nothing, nothing's better Thursday nights are the best, best part of my week.
I put it out there too, Johnny, then Johnny and Jonathan.
I mean, hey, if you're listening for the first time and, or if you're a return, though,
and you're like, AQ, AQ Association college university educators, I'd like to check that out.
Well, check it out.
And here's the deal.
If you're really interested, busted pencils, 20, put that in for your discount code.
I don't give you 20% off of whether you want to get into a cohort like Johnny,
or like me in the quick study courses, I'm learning all about AI.
Just use that little right there, busted pencils, all capital, busted pencils, 20.
When you're checking out, and that'll get you 20% off just through that out there.
Jonathan and Johnny, because you know, that's what we do.
We like to be nice to people who are listening about there.
But Jonathan, yeah, okay.
Since our original conversation about publicization,
some things have happened in the world that have kind of thrown people for a little bit of a lot.
Um, there was a presidential election.
And it didn't go so well for the Democrats.
And yes, president elect Trump returning after four years of complaining and whining and making sure that everybody knew that he was going to somehow be where he was disenfranchised.
So he's back whatever he's back now.
He's got a vision and we're starting to now kind of go wait a minute.
What is he talking about while in public education?
There's been a lot said project 20 25 was out there where calling for an end to the Department of Education got the main headlines.
But you have a piece in the heckinger report.
And it's an opinion piece put that out there.
Some advice for the political left.
Hmm.
Let's redefine public education to improve all schools, little subtitle there, a deal maker in the White House is an opportunity to increase federal support.
So why not make a deal?
Oh, Jonathan, can we really make a deal with this dude?
I don't know. Do you have a tweezer in your purse? Do you have a it's a deep cut for.
We the peace and by the way, many thanks to Liz will in the extraordinary hard working editor in chief of heckinger report.
You can check out that piece at their website.
Many thanks for inviting it.
Why not try what what what do champions of education have to lose?
You know, as I wrote in the piece, the right is going to pursue its agenda.
So the only opportunity is to influence how they do that.
And as long as there's a culture rule in the Senate, where you can't do things by simple majority, but it's going to take at least 60 votes to get things done in the Senate.
And it's that is just the the slightest bit of political leverage to have an influence as to what gets done as opposed to taking a obstructionist stance of trying to stop everything, which I don't think is politically feasible.
I don't think it's it's possible. And so why not in these early days, explore the art of the possible.
Good, good question.
I'm kind of rhetorical putting it back there.
Yeah, our guest is Jonathan Girko book publicization, but now talking about his new piece that just came out in heckinger report last week.
It's an opinion piece.
Some advice for the political left.
Let's redefine public education to improve all schools.
I'm going to put this down and give you a question before we take the break.
Can we really make a deal with the Trump administration when they have so blatantly said they are coming for us?
That's the question a lot of people have as we're going forward.
It's busted pencils fully-led education talk our guest Jonathan Girko hard question.
Can we make a deal with Trump more when we get back?
Oh
There it is.
Busted pencils fully-led education talk.
Educated educators talking education.
Yeah, we take requests also sometimes you're like.
Music is awesome.
We know that's producer Jess though.
That's what she does all the time.
Jess, thank you for that.
You're very welcome.
A little hail storm makes everything better.
It has all the time.
Our guest is Jonathan Girko president founder of the association of college and university educators.
That's a Q author of the book publicization.
And now new piece in the heckinger report.
Some advice for the political left.
Let's redefine public education to improve all schools.
Addressing the reality.
The as they say the elephant in the room.
We have a new president elect in Donald Trump.
He's coming forward and from the standpoint of public education.
Anybody who looked at particularly the project 2025 the abolition of the department of education first and foremost was one of his goals.
Jonathan's putting out this this this sense of saying but.
Can we make a deal with the self defined ultimate deal maker and Jonathan so let you kind of dig into that a little bit first.
Help us understand if we can truly do this.
Yeah.
Well, picking up on what you said just before the break you said we know what Trump stands for.
I think you met educationally and I would say.
We have no idea what Trump stands for educationally Trump stands for Trump.
And if it's good for Trump, then he'll do it.
And he is narrowly predictably transactional.
Okay.
So is there anything in the world that we could agree on to do something around education that that is I think the question to engage second.
You know, we've been hearing him say give education back to the States give education back to the States.
That has been happening now since the Obama administration.
So let's not think that that's something new and shocking.
There was such push back to no child left behind and such push back to federal overreach and raise to the top.
You know the every student succeeds acts was much more deferential to States.
And then the first Trump administration gave very little oversight to state plans letting giving states a lot of latitude to do what they want.
And over the past four years, we can't rightly judge that because of of COVID.
But the notion of more state authority, less federal authority.
That's not a new idea.
Also of note.
The Democrats is there's good data to show that Democrats are comfortable working at the federal level or the state level depending on where Democrats can pursue their interests.
It's Republicans who are more consistent in wanting education to be a state and local level.
So I put that as context to say, you know what?
These federalism issues are pretty standard.
There's a literature around them.
And it should give us the confidence to try to make some deals to give things done.
So who are the us, as I said before the break, as long as we have a culture rule in the Senate, the Senate has some power to influence the future of education.
As I write in the piece, my beloved former employer of many years, Randy Winegarten is the most creative.
Negotiator.
I've ever seen.
So if anybody can get a deal done with the master deal maker self proclaimed it's Randy.
And the piece says, why don't we see what's possible.
We have huge needs.
Rural urban suburban in terms of the quality of school facilities and resources and techniques for the 21st century.
I T is in all that controversial.
We have huge teacher shortages because salaries and benefits and working conditions are nowhere close to what they could be.
And might there be some deal making around that.
As the piece also says, I'm giving the whole piece away to that traffic to heck and your report, but please give them traffic. It's important.
It happened at least once before in 1965 when President Johnson.
In his war on poverty was determined to make educational opportunity equal.
And to do something for students in poor schools, poor communities and under resource schools.
It had been tried before.
I was told by constituents who didn't want to see federal funding involved.
But Johnson in his unique way of getting things done.
Cut a deal with representatives of the Catholic school community.
And that strange bed fellow moment gave us title one on which we've been building a national commitment to schooling ever since.
So I want to get back to the headline. Let's redefine education. But before we go there.
Trump is definitely going to be in legacy mode. Definitely. Right.
And to do something as celebrated as what Lyndon Johnson did on the left. He does it on the right.
It is a truism when anybody wants something as much as the right wants things in education and social policy.
That's leverage. That's leverage to cut deals to do something and I think we should grab it.
Jonathan, I love this conversation because you know what there is a lot of people talking right now about what they think is going to happen.
And it's a lot of the sky has fallen because I think it's a moment that we're in where it's complicated.
And it's and there's a lot of interrelated factors that come into the panic of oh no public schools are are done for.
Right. We've been saying for a long time to remember I was like Tim.
I know you're careful because public as we know it.
Maybe as it's being broadly defined by the so called experts and certainly some of those folks speaking to this are experts.
But they're narrowly defining public and I love that Jonathan your piece you know proposes action highlights historically this has happened before so you're sharing precedence here.
But saying to like where do we go from here how do we be proactive in this moment.
And Jonathan taking our listeners back to publicization your book and also your work.
I really agree and like how you're proposing we really take this moment to rethink how we define public education.
I'm going to share a quote with this.
Since we're sharing so much from the from the opinion piece and we'll direct folks there.
But Jonathan you argue this is your words we need to reframe our thinking based on what schools do.
And not what they're called the idea is simple instead of focusing on types of schools we should consider a school public win and you give us a list.
Hey listeners if you want to contact us and contribute to this discussion.
You can always leave us a comment or ask a question you can call or text us at 608 557 8577.
We'll come back from the break John then we're going to come up with those what schools do rather than what they're they're called okay.
So let's get into that when we come back. Thanks for listening to busted pencils.
Hey you're back.
We have the guest Jonathan Erica author of the book publicization and recent author of the piece some advice for the political left let's redefine public education to improve all schools.
Let's let's see the moment to start some negotiating to really take for I'll put these words in here take advantage of what's at stake for the Trump administration what they want and leverage it towards better stronger public education.
And Jonathan I think this is really key I'm a big fan of your work big fan of this actionable point you make right about public education moving past what schools.
What they're called and really focusing on what they do and you propose a simple but I think really generative clear points to think about how might we redefine public and I know and send the context of schools.
But listeners when we're talking public education in this context really talking about the common good really talking about the strength of our democracy in our communities so I see this also extending to our health care systems to our transportation systems.
But let's get back to where we are we are primarily located in education and Jonathan can you share with our listeners this proposed redefining of public that you offer.
Sure well I wrote the book as I think there are a lot of instances of privateness where private interests dominate in what we call public or district or tax funded schools and so I the book comes from a love of our public sector of the public good and wanting to make schools more public and to operationalize that.
The book defines a school as public when it doesn't exclude right public goods are unexcludable and when they prepare contributing citizens productive workers good neighbors and stewards of the planet the four big public goods on which we all live now.
I have a very good friend Greg Richmond for your Chicago listeners who is the superintendent of the Chicago Archdiocese Catholic schools.
Now Greg started his career as in the Chicago public school system he became a charter school authorizer.
He founded the association that seeks to achieve quality authorizing so that the accountability is real it's not just a public giveaway so here's a guy who has spent his entire career trying to figure out how to do creative things and expand opportunity for students.
He and I don't think i'm breaking a confidence he and I are having this great private conversation that we may take public someday he says you know this is what my schools do my Chicago Catholic schools we hardly exclude anybody you don't have to be Catholic we take nearly all comers and I think we're doing a really good job at preparing citizens workers neighbors and stewards of the planet.
Are we part of the publicization project and if we are shouldn't government in the country be supporting us to do more.
Now I think he makes a great point given that when you look from the bottom up the real disappointment among families and communities in the district option.
And of course that should be a better option here he's doing a good job for students.
What is the argument that he's not part of the publicization project i answer my own question because I also have a piece that draws a bright line between secular choice and religious choice and and the risk to democracy.
When you introduce religion that said the right wants vouchers the left wants a flourishing democracy with schools in service of that democracy.
Is there anything that could be done to expand Greg's work in this project in this effort because many hands make light work.
There are and is there a danger in exploring it compared to the danger of saying no no no no no we're going to pose everything and if we don't and if we can't win you know it's a big zero some game we lose.
Oh yeah i'm thinking about this because I I feel compelled to go yeah yeah and then there's my other side because again if people back to the original first conversation we had i'm probably more of the the kind of almost to the sense of going no we will not give one moment on this.
Because I don't trust and maybe that's it I don't trust that the bargain and the vision of public Jonathan that you put forward is a vision that the political right actually finds acceptable.
And even though you point out with with with your colleague and friend you know with that Catholic school in that sense of saying you know we prepare engaged citizens and workers and good neighbors and stewards of the planet yeah.
But they they also do have the ability to indoctrinate religiously right and we look at that and again if we're just calling it on on trust maybe that is a person we can trust but the vision of the political right today the political right today who seems to be pushing this argument would be is is that actually.
Their vision doesn't believe in preparing engaged citizens maybe workers good neighbors but stewards of the planet my god no there's nothing the political right wants.
That feels that they would have any sense of public that's kind of i'm trying to put out the alternative the critique and even my own sense of going like.
I want to make a deal because I know that but I don't know that this group wants to make a deal yeah and again.
Who who are you talking about are we talking about the political extremists who get the headlines right are we talking about people who have to get reelected every term.
Before our session today I shared you the.
Pew findings Pew is very respected with 51% of Americans feeling that education's not on the right track now I doubt they're all Republicans that that's a purely partisan divine.
You know you have the great session with David pepper is it who talked about how much people in Kentucky love their local schools that happen to be the tax funded district provided education.
And those data that suggests that ordinary Americans are a lot more moderate on these issues a lot more practical and pragmatic than the politicians so let's go back to this case of Chicago let's just for sake of argument take Greg at his work right that they're doing a good job citizens productive workers neighbors and stewards of the planet.
What is the accountability.
And what are the trade offs right would he accept or would the Catholic community accept metaphysics and social doctrine is after school right it's the equivalent of CCD what I went to after school as part of my after school Catholic education would that be acceptable in a deal.
I don't know but it's one way it could be struck struck let's not forget tax dollars today support students in private schools for textbooks for transportation for special education resources it's not as if we don't pursue the public interest in these schools.
So the question is how could we even more pursue the public interest in these other schools.
And would they take that deal.
And you got a little question down there in the in our notes I know listeners can't see those but go for it man.
Well, I mean, I think this is great and this is an invitation to to really I think being like I said before generative and productive in the in the discussion of things and so you know thinking about that.
You know I like this I know Tim you are posing some good great questions to is it even possible.
But rather than I like that given the possibility or maybe even some of the skepticism of the impossibility that we meet around you know what can we do like what can we what can we arrive at.
And again, this is all of our optimism around democracy and this is me at its at its purest form a great example of patriotism and what we can do when we're truly working right across party lines to improve public education what might we get done.
Jonathan shares in this piece he really does share historical precedent set around this so we often talk about history helps us to not repeat mistakes in the past but it also helps us to revisit some of those successful moments.
And I think we're in one of those moments where we have to be really creative and think about what's possible.
And for our listeners thinking about that you know there's a lot of skepticism and there's a lot of disappointment and anger but what where do we go from here.
Well as the piece recommends that I've already said it you know Washington's a small town people talk people have friends on the left and the right.
And Randy wine garden has already gone on the record she's delighted to sit down with Linda McMahon if she's going to be the secretary or any whoever the secretary is going to be to talk about common interests and in that piece it was around apprenticeships and career readiness and the Switzerland model but I suspect that's not the only thing they might agree on.
One of the skept one of the critics of the piece who put pen to paper talked about you know the cost of deal making.
And to that I'd say two things first there's always money for a priority right the pentagon does not have to have bake sales there's always money for a priority.
And second trump has shown total comfort in spending money you know he's put it on the country's credit card as debt not as taxes but you know the book sites and maybe it's glib maybe it's a little too glib but the book sites this fact that every year the IRS fails to collect about 600 billion dollars in taxes do from taxes on the books.
You know you could imagine with a little more enforcement more taxes collected to pay for the kind of grand bargain between the left and right in education i'm just so tired of the division and the fighting wouldn't it be healing again ironic from a guy who ran the most divisive campaign in modern political history but.
Wouldn't that be the kind of counter intuitive trump card to play around education.
One more question johnson and it's a complicated one but you're so great at giving real simple and straightforward answers so what do we say to the folks who are saying there's no compromising when we are talking about human rights and that's probably referring to that device of campaign and the sort of track record of the trump administration and trump himself.
Oh it's it's it's it's disgraceful right it's disgraceful it's absolutely contrary to the notion that America is a growing democracy where each and individual person can define what it means for themselves to flourish right sort of this this core notion of a human right.
What I will say and I've said is this is an emerging area of social values and so to treat it as a conversation not as a dictate and fiat we could point to the Obama administration that acted by fiat or the trump.
Treat it as a conversation in this deal making process.
Oh, we could go on and on we love our guest repeat guest Jonathan Garco check out publicization heckinger report some advice for the left.
Hey, you know what's coming next Tim and Johnny breaking it down busted pencils come on back.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's busted pencils it's fully let it education talk educated educators talking education.
Great interview with our guest Jonathan Garco piece in the heckinger reports some advice for the left redefining public education or can we make a deal with the incoming trump administration.
Maybe it's a time to redefine public in a way that is more inclusive potentially.
You know, Johnny, I we were talking about this coming into this from the break and it's I think so many people are really concerned about the reality of saying this administration and the people that are going to come in are not going to be interested in any type of deal making.
And so why even put it on the table to begin with why even show that we're willing to make a deal.
You know, and I kind of get that and then I'm also kind of on the standpoint because Jonathan made another point about the reality of trump himself not being any person whose ideologically defined by anything other than himself.
And the reality that if you give him any form of an ability to claim some kind of win that probably that's where you're going to get that win is because he's not an ideal log.
He just is a you know, you're kind of giving the screen face, but his his ideal his idealism is is all wrapped up in himself.
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, to me, he fits the definition of an ideal log.
It's not one that matches her say his support and base fully.
He's done a really great job and Jonathan points to this. There's a really divot maybe the most historically divisive campaign ever certainly the most divisive in our lifetimes around this.
And so I like its optimism. I like that the general sentiment. Let's go to the table.
This is happening. There are going to be massive changes be part of that change to do to mitigate.
Whatever can be mitigated in terms of the fact that we can predict if we're not part of this conversation strongly and with citizen support, possibly even in the form of descent and disobedience.
We have to be really active in the in the art of the deal.
I have told us consistently he is all about himself and he is all about making that deal. So I think to a to a varying to varying degrees of support.
I'm sure listeners are all over the place on this.
You know, I'm a big fan of saying like we have to be part of that.
And there are certainly people position to do that. Randy wine garden certainly probably one of the most skilled as Jonathan said creative and skilled negotiators.
We know of in the realm of education, especially of regards to public education. That's the president of the AFT the largest one of the largest unions in our country.
And I think it's the second largest. So we think about AFT representing teachers, the American Federation of teachers that prefers go by AFT because they have over the years also become the second largest union for health care workers primarily nurses.
And so teachers and nurses on the front lines of two public institutions and crisis public education and health care.
So let's listen to those front lines folks. I love this push get Randy wine garden in there. I bet she gets a deal done that it at the very least mitigates.
The damage is done to those most vulnerable. And that's I think the real pragmatic worry that many of us have in public education is that the trumpet administration has very openly said it will dismantle.
And so that's the most vulnerable students in our communities. And so that's that sense shock.
Yeah, education world because that's that should be an absolute no. We've worked really hard as a country for public education to be, you know, a safer place.
For the most vulnerable for everyone. And and this these threats certainly undermine that. Now now Tim, I get to this other point.
I think Jonathan is on to something here too. And you were alluding to this when you're talking about what Trump stands for and him being about himself is that it's also important to hold him accountable to the to the trend to be more transparent about the ways that he is actually not supporting his base.
So there are neo conservatives who really feel like this is their moment. Right. And that maybe this is the time that every public school classroom has a Bible in it or that every public school classroom has, you know, Christianity as its core values.
And so I think this is a real slippery slope because I don't think Trump at least in his actions in his life decisions and in leadership roles has modeled, you know, the values of neo conservatives.
So I really want to hold him accountable to the fact that like I do see an opening here because he has not shown an action that he really values that initiative other than a way to threaten and to utilize from further deregulation.
So these are, I think, think Jonathan's right. There are some big openings. And I am grateful that folks like he are out there, you know, posing questions and pushing us to be present in the moment and to make change. So this is a good episode. Tim, I love what we're talking about here.
But I think it's time for your moment of zen.
Patriotism doesn't mean support of government. Patriotism means support of the principles it's supposed to stand for.
Man, we love all you pencil blushers coming back all the time Saturday. Make sure you hang out though. Remember Monday drop its home room Wednesday classes in session Friday.
It's a new one coming up. We'll get that. You know, what is it, Johnny? What do we call the new ice hockey and stuff like that?
Reversals and face offs, my man.
Reversals and face offs.
Yeah, don't forget that though. And then of course on Saturdays, three o'clock across all of the civic media networks, you can always get your one hour of busted pencils. And again, thank you.
Jonathan Geirko for coming on busted pencils. Great return guests. And you know what to remind people. Yeah, we were talking a little bit about AQ, the Association of College of University Educators, busted pencils, 20 as you're checking out.
You'll get a nice surprise. And everybody, man, love it. Just hang out and keep busted pencils.
Yeah, don't forget that though. And then of course on Saturdays, three o'clock across all of the civic media networks, you'll get a nice surprise.