This is Busted Pencils.
Fully Letted Education Talk.
Here are your hosts.
Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
Educator's Talking Education.
Hi, Eddies.
It's Busted Pencils.
Fully Letted Education Talk,
Educator's Talking Education.
Wednesday Classes in Session.
Oh, man.
We got a lot to talk about a lot to teach.
But, you know, first and foremost,
Johnny Jess, how are you?
Johnny, you first.
I am doing great, Tim.
It's great to be here.
You know, Wednesday.
It's class in session.
And we've been talking about a lot lately
and especially about this topic.
So excited about our guest.
And excited to just, you know,
tease this out a little bit more
because there's certainly some lessons to be learned.
And it's not widely being talked about.
And so when we find folks who are talking about it,
get them here on Busted Pencils
and it's going to be a great show.
So looking forward to it.
And Jess, how are you?
I'm doing well, Tim.
Thank you for asking.
And you know what?
I'm feeling very thankful right now.
Oh.
And tomorrow is going to be Thanksgiving.
So I just want to say, you know,
I'm thankful for you guys.
And I'm thankful for this opportunity
to bust some pencils.
I love it.
I love it.
Just made me think about the fact that I have to go
and make sure I pull out the tofurkey.
Yeah, you better.
Otherwise, you're going to have some angry kids.
Yes, I kind of have some angry kids vegan kids.
But anyway, today on Busted Pencils,
we're joined by David Pepper.
He is a former Cincinnati City Councilman, Hamilton County Commissioner
and Chairman of the Ohio Democratic Party.
He's also a Yale Law grad voting rights advocate
and author of political thrillers like the People's House
and the voter file.
He's here to talk about democracy, education
and the fight for a better future.
Welcome to Busted Pencils, David Pepper.
How are you David?
I'm great.
I'm so glad to connect up with you guys.
This is awesome.
This is totally awesome.
And I say, I'll admit this to, you know, where did David come from?
Yes, it was Tim out on the social media stocking for guests
and being relentless at going,
we want you on Busted Pencils, we want you on Busted Pencils
until they eventually either block me
or as David did, finally said, okay, we're going to do this.
Yeah.
And thinking about that, though, too, reminder,
if you're thinking, I would like to be a guest on Busted Pencils
or leave us a message, 608-557-8577.
That's the Busted Pencils mailbag.
Yeah, you know what?
We would love to hear from you, 608-557-8577.
Okay, David, the reason though, I went after you,
as you were posting some very compelling things on,
it was Twitter, pointing out the reality of the election,
not election denialism, you know, yes,
forward mission that we have a new president-elect Trump coming
into office in January.
But then pointing out some realities about an issue,
very specifically dealing, maybe an education,
public education, school vouchers,
and how school vouchers faired across this country,
didn't do so well, are a little pre-interview.
You and I were talking about the possibility
that you were thinking, hey, Kentucky's just a little south of me.
Maybe I'll take a little field trip down there
to some of the most incredibly road Trump counties
and take a talk.
And David, there it is, your sub-step stack is out
the most anti-school voucher county in Kentucky.
And it also voted 80-20 for president Trump.
David, what's going on with this crazy phenomena?
Well, thank you for having me.
And we both are in Ohio, so we know that the voucher thing
has been really taking off here.
And so I've been really focused on it.
And I just have been convinced over time
that it isn't popular.
The reason they're gerrymandering states like Ohio and others
is because they're trying to do things they know are unpopular.
And I've always, my hunch, and you all have seen this too,
is that vouchers, particularly in rural communities,
are not popular.
And so, and we've seen this in the past that referendum
that have tried to put universal vouchers into place always fail.
We had three on the ballot this year.
And it turns out all three failed.
But one, as you said, happened to fail.
And I'm going to sound like Sarah Palin.
I can see Kentucky from my house.
Like, I'm looking over the Ohio River right now from an office building.
So the fact that it failed in Kentucky,
I was paying close attention to that.
The ads ran since any media market.
No public funding should go to private schools.
Or I think it was public funds should be for public schools.
They were very clear.
I thought it would, I thought this thing would fail.
But as I wrote, the first time is when we met,
it failed in every single county in Kentucky.
There are 120 counties in Kentucky.
It lost 60, 40 in 111 of them.
And as I, and when I was going through the data,
I found that I want, okay, where did it lose the most?
And I think the number is 7426 in the smallest county in Kentucky.
Before I even looked at the Trump number,
I thought, is that interesting that the smallest county,
2,000 people,
is the one that rejected it the most.
And that was the thing that made me think,
I want to go check this place out.
Because this is, you know, not to use the mining of pun for Kentucky,
but that isn't canary in the coal mine.
Right.
The smallest county in Kentucky,
and it turns out, as you said,
to also be an 80-20 Trump county,
is so decisive in rejecting vouchers,
and there's gotta be something we can learn from that.
So I drove there,
and a lot of the instincts of what I've heard
and what you guys, I'm sure, talking all the time,
just proved out.
I started, I went to, you know,
I was, you know, I wouldn't say it was awkward.
And I've been in politics, so I'm used to just showing up
and shaking hands.
But I went to the library, the gas station,
the city hall of Mount Olivet.
I had wonderful conversations at the dollar store.
And it was very clear, very quickly,
why this county rejected it.
And I go through this in the sub-stacks.
Yeah.
Go ahead with any question.
No, you go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
You go.
I...
Well it's great, right?
Because it helps us have that like that that fact-based,
ground-based perspective, right.
That this is a misrepresentation.
That this is one of those this is where I was so excited about this
and we talked about it in home room and it.
We've been mentioning it through the news that's coming up,
but that real kind of, you know, distinct difference
between, you know, these referendums being passed and putting down vouchers
mostly around the country, voting them down,
but yet the Trump administration championing that, you know,
this is a big victory.
This election cycle was a big victory for school choice, right?
And so this is just not true in our small communities,
but while those small communities did vote for Trump by and large,
this is not where they sit on those issues.
So it's a really important like learning lesson for us,
especially as the Democrats organize
or just our communities and public education networks organize.
It's like how do we address this gap?
How do we say we really need to pay attention to our public schools?
They are something our voters highly value has part of the public good.
And that's I'm a crack and Republican voters.
And so we need to lean into that.
We've said it for years, Tim.
Come on, education is the better off of a strong democracy.
Give it more attention and not just lip service,
but be attentive to it in policy and in action.
And so our schools do matter to the people.
And David, you know, bringing some anecdotal evidence to that.
That's what we want to hear, right?
Yeah, we want to hear.
In fact, David, the people you spoke to,
I mean, they were proud.
Give us a little bit of, yeah, some of the comments
and give us a place to what happened.
It was really interesting.
And I can read live every conversation.
So of course, like you would be,
you don't want to go up to people and say, how do you vote?
Right?
I mean, that's a little bit in their face and not really appropriate.
So I would say I came up with sort of an approach, which was,
hey, you know, did you know that this,
I said, I'm from downtown.
I just wanted to ask you a question.
They looked at me like, please don't.
Like I want to go about my day.
But then I'd say,
do you know that,
that this county voted against that issue too,
that education issue more than any county in Kentucky?
And I'd say, I'm just,
I just wanted to visit here to understand why people think that is.
So why do you think that is?
And the reaction, they'd kind of, you know,
I'm think they're, they're thinking, well,
okay, this can take five minutes.
But then they would say,
well, I don't know,
but I'll tell you why I voted against it.
So they, they had an ownership of their vote.
It went from being me asking generally to not be,
because I didn't want to be intrusive to them saying,
oh, I'll tell you why I vote against it.
Oh, with a little bit of like an attitude like, yeah,
I'm glad I vote against it.
And I'm glad to hear that we were so against in this county.
And so there was an awareness.
One woman said to me,
oh, are you talking about the no on issue two campaign?
She didn't think about it is the referendum.
She thought it as the no on two campaign.
But if you're running that campaign,
you're really glad that that's how she thought of it.
That's how dominant the message was.
And then they would start to explain it.
And as I said, like in the sub stack,
the first thing that told you the whole story,
well, I'd say, well, why did you,
when they said, I'll tell you why.
And the first answer was very quick,
because I don't think public money should go to private schools.
As simple as can be,
the said almost the same way,
I don't think public money should go to private schools,
or public money is for public schools.
As simple as it gets.
And by the way,
that was the TV ad that I saw in the last couple of weeks.
But it was clear to me that these people
had decided that before they ever saw TV ad.
That TV ad reinforced what felt like true common sense.
So then I, you know,
but that alone told me the answer.
This simple principle is so locked in.
And Andy Beshear to his credit,
he says that all the time anyway,
regardless of the referendum,
more Democrats need to, by the way,
just simple principle.
But then the second thing is I dug a little deeper.
Okay, well, why is that?
One, they say, which they would say in rural Ohio,
in rural Arizona, in rural Texas,
there's no private school anywhere near here.
We got a drive 30 or 40 minutes at best.
And those schools aren't affordable to me or my family.
We can't afford those even with the voucher,
which the studies show are true.
Right.
Or what if they don't accept our kids?
That's a private school.
We liked it.
So there was,
there was a concern that the private schools of money
was going to were inaccessible or unaffordable.
But then it quickly became.
And it wasn't just that they were saying the money would go
from me a taxpayer to a private school.
It was the money will leave our school.
Yes.
And then they said,
I'm not going to go to that private.
And that was the core.
That I would dive into it just a little bit.
And they,
this is a small,
again, 2000 people in the whole county.
One school,
K to 12,
they're all in the same building.
And this school,
as you I'm sure I've talked about many times,
it teaches,
but it does everything.
It, as one woman said,
it is the community.
She said to me,
one town, one school,
while I drive to the school later.
And on the window,
one town,
one school,
it's how they think about their school.
It's the same as the town.
You know,
I heard incredible stories.
I didn't want to bother the school day.
But after the stories,
I actually wanted to go meet the teachers.
Because they would tell me,
well,
these are the kind of teachers
that when a kid can't afford a gift exchange,
they use their own money to help them out
without telling anybody.
Or the principal waves,
every morning to every fan.
As they arrive rain or snow or sleet or whatever,
there was so much human.
And when they said teachers,
and by the way,
I'm a big supporter of teachers unions,
but they were not talking about teachers.
They said,
they would say to me,
the teachers were against it.
They did not mean the union or the group.
They met the individual people they knew
who were teachers were against it.
And it posted about it.
But the overwhelming sense was how much of this
was about the school as this connection
for the community,
a real human connection.
And they said to me,
this was essentially an attack on that on our community.
And if you would go after our school,
we are going to react.
And that's clearly what they did.
Johnny,
is this like going like,
oh, my God,
how long have we been making this conversation like this?
Right?
It's just like the heart of our community
is our public school.
And they say,
yeah, it obviously is really
sensuated in those rural areas
where their quote is no choice.
But I think any time we talk about
our local community public schools
in the suburbs,
these areas,
there's an affinity where people say,
no, they're my schools.
They're mine.
And David,
one of the things I like too,
the way you made reference to this,
is that these teachers weren't
weren't pedophilia groomers.
These were the community members,
their friends,
their neighbors,
who were actually essential
for the thrivingness of that community
there wasn't this disconnect
of those teachers over there
and they do that.
And it makes me then
to think about,
how do we position this,
you know,
as leaders trying to make some headway
of where do we go next politically,
there's some pretty strong lessons here
about where we should be framing
this type of a conversation
if we want to dig deep into,
you know, maybe actually winning.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I know.
I agree.
Because what I went there
is you and I talked in the preview
to talk about public education.
And I think it,
it bore out everything we talk about
that they are the center of community.
If it's viewed that way,
they are not interested in anything
that undermines that.
And this is again,
this is a small town.
They've had the school threatened
for years.
It maybe would shut down.
Maybe another county would take over.
So they told me we're especially sensitive to that.
But to me,
the second lesson I learned
beyond this public education value
that I know we all agree on
was political organizing.
And what we're doing wrong.
And what I learned
from this conversation.
And I thought it,
but it was so clear is,
and I'll just say there's a Democrat.
We're coming from the top down to communities.
We have some database.
And we call people.
And we knock on their doors.
And it's kind of generated by voter behavior
and whatever else.
And the scientists tell us they got it all figured out.
And what that does is it skips over the conversation
that they had in that county
about issue two,
which is people who've earned
the trust of this community.
Teachers,
retirees,
that principal.
They, we trust them.
We believe in them.
We know they're working this community.
They are troubled by this.
They are what we would call influencers
at the local level.
And if they are telling us they are troubled by this.
On Facebook posts or word of mouth.
We are going to listen to them.
And you can knock on my door.
And you can run a TV ad.
And run this information through my community.
None of it matters.
Because the people we trust locally are telling us
that this is a risk to our school system.
And I think about that versus
typical political organizing.
We don't do that.
We are coming in with the parachute on
at the last second.
Knock it on.
Don't forget to vote without going up from the community
with the people who people actually respect and listen to.
And yes, that's teachers.
So one organizing tactic long term.
Is we got teachers in every county
of every part of every state.
And they will largely be viewed
in the same way these teachers were.
As the front line of public service.
As trusted voices.
And the more we organize.
Take the time.
Continual.
Respectful.
Not last minute desperate knock on doors.
Get out the vote, which is like.
Just transactional.
The more I think we can start building up.
You know, real messaging organizing that really, really.
You know, gets a community.
And so we're going to have the community.
And we're going to have the community.
And so the community, in this case.
On the right place on a very important vote for their community.
Man.
David.
Just love.
I just like joining our center going man.
We just need to let him talk.
Wine David pepper up.
And let him go.
Because the truth there really it is something that.
Really needs to be, you know, we.
Organizing.
6085578577.
If you heard something that David's talking about that makes sense to you.
That is something you want to take back.
Truly to organizing your communities.
Let us know about it.
6085578577.
Because we know here on busted pencils.
We have been pushing forward the idea that if you run on.
The beauty, the foundational community aspects of public education.
That is a win.
That is a win.
Not on standards, which should be taught.
The achievement, I mean, the achievement gaps, all those things.
And Democrats have been largely.
Sorry.
Yeah.
We're going to say this.
Democrats, you have ignored the reality of the emotional connection
that people have to their public schools.
In fact, even at one point in the 2000s when we were all jumping on.
The no child left behind, raised to the top.
Everybody was attacking their public schools.
Here's the realization here that the people, yes, they voted in favor of Trump.
And then they voted in favor of their public schools.
What's the message out there?
Man, David Pepper, we got to have you back another time, man, because I tell you what, dude.
You are truly a pencil buster.
Thank you.
Now it's great to be with you guys.
We got it.
We got a lot of work to do.
So I'm happy to come back on any time and talk out loud with others about how we build up and learn from this.
Because I actually think this is the far right iceberg.
Now, yes, Trump people voted for this and then for Trump.
But if it's at risk, I think we can turn this in their iceberg if we're smart about it.
Talking to folks, talking to everyday people.
I mean, that's what we are here.
Educated educators, talking education.
But Tim and I always make the comment, we're blue collar scholars.
Talking to our neighbor, we want to move outside of those, you know, the traps of being an echo chamber of, hey, you know, we're, you know, professors talking about education with other education professors.
It's so important to have those public conversations as public schools are a fabric of our diverse communities.
And so understanding and hearing you, David, talk today about trusting teachers and listening to people who are on the front lines.
We always talk about Tim, right? I always give you that definition I use for democracy decisions being made by those directly impacted by the decision.
So who are the stakeholders, the community members and the frontline experts, the teachers, sharing what helps them do really great work in schools, which are, as we all said here today, you know, the cornerstones are the bedrock of democracy in a strong system.
And thanks for reminding us like listeners, what a great show today because we talk about democracy, we talk about representative democracy.
And maybe how far we've moved from it, if you're running for an office, it's so important that you represent your constituency and you understand the things are constituency values.
And here we're seeing there's a, there's a disconnect and that's something we have to all focus on, whether we're at, you know, talking in our neighborhood or we're in the public school system, or we're at, you know, policy level decision making.
You know, offices, it's that if, if we truly value our school systems and the American people do, right, then why aren't we doing more to support that both parties, whoever's running, right, instead of turning it into sort of this, you know, it doesn't really matter.
So, you know, just let it go. It actually matters. David sharing some of that testimonial here today and I couldn't agree more.
David, thanks for busting pencils with us.
All right, I've enjoyed it. And now it's time for your moment of sin.
Education becomes most rich and alive when it confronts the reality of moral conflict in the world.
Hey, thanks for listening to busting pencils. Don't forget to listen on Friday to our first downs and Friday night lights. Hey, and every Saturday at 3 p.m. on all the civic media networks and keep busting pencils.
Oh, still stop talking to me.